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Dayo is an entirely different type of pircha; I probably shouldn’t have even called it a pircha.
Dayo limits the extent (or possibly, as in this case, the applicible cases) of a k”v. IOW, it doesn’t challenge which is the kal and which is the chamur, it limits what we can learn from the k”v.
A pircha shows that which has a tzad chsmur also has a tzad kal, so meiheicha teisi to follow the tzad chamur; maybe we should view it as a kal.
Again, the kal and chamur here is the rasha (Achitofel) vs. an ordinary, non rasha, equal who taught Torah. A standard pircha would be to show how there’s an opoksiree aspect to Achitofel, but that’s not what the dayo does; it merely limits the effects of the k”v.
Popa, more than pizza? They have the name Yerushalayim in common, you know.
Because Lee Ave. is in Williamsburg. The people who check their suits for shaatnez tend to be kugel eaters (not flying lukshen, AFAIK).
Because they serve kugel for simchas chosson v’kallah.
They used to get married in the future home, but with housing prices the way they are… No.
How big of a house? Where is the island?
Yes, apparently you were wrong.
Of course it doesn’t make sense to use a pircha as a k”v! But, that was never the k”v. The k”v was from a rasha to an equal. The two halachos was the dayo, not the k”v.
Quote attributed to Rav Yisroel Yaakov Fisher, in a letter written by Mrs. G. Layosh to this week’s Mishpacha:
“People think that the Zionists saved the Satmar Rebbe, but in reality the Satmar Rebbe saved the Zionists.”
What if there’s no objective way to determine that he’s been abusive, but it’ s obvious that she is miserable? Do you still want to force her to stay with him? How do you define “without cause”?
You didn’t seem to find it so difficult to condemn a woman to a lifetime of igun for the sake of precedent.
It’s not a chilluk in types of pircha, it’s a chilluk as to whether we see one or two separate k”v.
If the k”v is in severity of punishment (as in hesger Miriam; the equivalent here would have been level of kavod required), that would be one k”v, and R’ Tarfon would also hold of dayo.
However, the k”v is in what causes the requirement for kavod, hence, we can consider it as two separate k”v; one, to learn the requirement for someone who taught two halachos, which even the Rabanan would agree to, and the second, to learn the requirement for kavod for less than two halachos, which only R’ Tarfon would hold of (because that k”v would be mufrach if we applied dayo).
PAA, why would the MS not have an issue if he originally assumed the B’raisa was the Rabbonon? The kal vachomer as applied to the case of someone who was taught one halacha doesn’t work (because of dayo) according to the Rabbonon, but according to R’ Tarfon it does work, because the alternative would be to discard the k”v (for that case).
HaLeiVi, there’s a pirush from the Rav on Avos D’R’ Nosson? The pshat you mentioned is found (more elaborately) in the pirush of the Gaon’s brother, but as PAA said, the MS doesn’t agree.
Yes, that’s why I responded.
Shtusim, what’s wrong with a Chevy? Why do some people want a Lexus?
Everyone should want to learn forever, but of course the reality is that the need for parnassah kicks in (as well as other considerations).
I was responding to his last sentence.
Yeah, those hareidim don’t believe in complete intellectual freedom. They even put it into their Talmud!
http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=13&daf=11b&format=pdf
Mazel Tov!
Sam, ???? ???? ????? ??????.
They don’t claim to be seeking to protect anyone.
I assume you mean that you posted that beautiful post from the seminar security thread here by mistake.
Actually, I think it belongs here as well.
lol
I don’t know, but…
They don’t need to bunker under hospitals
They don’t need to force civilians to stay in the line of fire
They don’t need to store weapons in schools
Rivie Schwebel
You must have had one of those buy 10 get 1 free cards.
Yy, I would hope so too, but have you ever heard of half Shabbos?
They are certainly, in general, more private than computers. Specifically, in a frum internet enabled home, it is often the case that the computer is in a place which is readily visible to all. This is obviously not the case with smartphones.
PBA, was it expensive for you?
Don’t believe popa’s naarishkeit. The real reason is because a real pizza pie (not that square nonsense) resembles a shtreimel.
ZD, I agree. They should not have gone to the media.
I don’t disagree with you from a hashkafic point of view, but it does take a certain level of emunah to undertake something which is difficult al pi teva.
I agree with popa, although there might be financial considerations.
Sam, these two issues are similar in that the individual case has to be weighed against precedent. If we allow a woman to ask for and receive a get at whim (same with a man giving one), we support making marriage disposable. Yet, the individual case is served better by allowing it.
Same with charges of abuse. Of course, better safe than sorry, but we risk allowing charges of abuse being indiscriminately used as a bargaining chip or tool for revenge, as it has been used.
There’s no easy answer here.
Lior, two points.
1) One can choose to sever relationships with parents or children with no ramifications, other than financial obligations regarding young children, and of course the mitzvah of kibud/mora for which there is no get. Only marriage requires a get, or l’havdil, secular divorce, to terminate it. I do agree with you that marriage has become too disposable to many, but I don’t see the point of comparison to other relationships.
2) At what point does a husband reach the understanding that despite the wife being entirely wrong for wanting to end the marriage, she is not changing her mind? Two years? Five years? Never? If a woman left her husband twenty years ago for silly reasons, should he not give the get simply because she’s still in the wrong?
Writersoul, you’re assuming the number of boys with that hakpadah to be much greater than the number of girls who have smartphones, and that the hakpadah is non negotiable.
Don’t you think you can put people in some form of religious/cultural category, at least for the purpose of marriage compatibility?
The way the line goes (I heard this regarding snow days, but it’s the same thing) is, “because a yeshiva needs a heter to close, while a Bais Yaakov needs a heter to open”.
Those were your words, taken out of context, as I think you took another poster’s words out of context.
There are (or at least use to be) some cheap phones which are world phones, you just need to do your research.
Shopping613, many carriers “lock” the phones they sell, making them unusable with other carriers, even those using the same technology. “Unlocked” means a code was used to make the phone usable for other carriers.
There is no such thing as a female
That’s not true.
I am in complete agreement with Oomis. Every word.
Most people don’t ask for a meal. If you would like to have guests, ask them.
The OP mentioned that to even the age gap, 22-24 year old boys should not be allowed to date 19 year old girls.
I disagree. It’s nice to encourage it when appropriate, but making takanos is not the way to go.
Wolf, still, the yeshivish still have an overall higher marriage percentage than the Modern Orthodox. Besides, I’m not really trying to demonstrate a correlation, as much as to debunk the false correlation the other way.
YP, what is your point?
The things you mentioned would be true in the times of Chazal as well, especially #2.
I posted this once before. Dr. Halpert seems to feel that the gap widened. He doesn’t say what his evidence is.
Ariel Halpert, Ph.D.
Posted Jan 23 2008
It is the best of times and the worst of times in the world of shidduch dating. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most single men in the various circles of Orthodox Jewry today have long lists of potential shidduchim and continuous dating opportunities. At the same time, many single women struggle with short lists and relatively infrequent dating. This imbalance represents a looming tragedy within the community as ever-increasing numbers of women are marrying later in life or not getting married at all. But what’s behind it?
The problem cannot be explained by other oft-cited causes of the shidduch crisis, such as the lack of suitable venues for singles to meet, the failure of friends and family to be sufficiently engaged in matchmaking, singles’ own unrealistic standards, etc., since none of these explain the imbalance in dating opportunities.
Rather, the problem stems from demographic trends of a growing community coupled with a widening age gap between husbands and wives. Though age differences of up to about three years within a marriage have always been common, today we are seeing men marrying women 5, 6, or 7 years their junior with increasing frequency.While an expanding Jewish population is a good thing, the widening marital age gap is having devastating consequences on the ratio of single men to single women within the shidduch pool. Ideally, the ratio should be 1:1, with equally as many single women as single men. Lower ratios, as demonstrated below, mean fewer men than women, so that in any matching of men to women, there will necessarily be women without a match.
The mathematical discipline of combinatorics uses the term “matching” to describe a situation in which elements of two distinct sets (think of single men and single women) may be paired in a one-to-one manner (think of marriage) in such a way that all pairs are appropriate or allowable (think of some shidduchim that are traditionally not appropriate from the start, e.g. a very tall girl with a very short boy). A perfect matching is one in which every girl is paired with a boy, and every boy with a girl, or in the language of mathematics, every vertex is incident to exactly one edge. Thus, the term “perfect matching” refers not to the merits of any individual match but to the pairing of all the elements of the two sets.
The Marriage Theorem of 1935 (attributable to mathematicians D. Konig and P. Hall) gives a necessary and sufficient condition for a perfect matching. Using the language of shidduchim, the condition can be stated as follows: For every group of single women (call such a group G) within those people in the “parsha” of shidduchim, the number of single men who would make an appropriate shidduch for at least one of the single women in G should be at least as large as the number of women in G. I will spare the reader the mathematical statement of this condition, but will posit that some reflection on the condition leads to the conclusion that the widening age gap between marriage partners is creating a situation in which “perfect matching” is not possible.
Data from the U.S. Census of 2000 provides supporting evidence that our community is growing in size. From the mid-1970’s to the early 1980’s, the number of children within the New York frum community born in a given year as compared with the number born in the previous year increased by just under 1% per year. So for example, if 10,000 children were born in 1975, then approximately 10,100 were born in 1976. Then, from the early to mid-1980s, this rate increased to nearly 1.5%, and by the mid-1980’s the rate was over 2%. These numbers may not sound like much, but when viewed within a demographic model, the results can be significant.
Using the above numbers along with a simple demographic model, and assuming that the age gap between husbands and their wives averages around 3 years (with a range of 1 to 5 years), we can estimate ratios of single men to single women who are 1 to 5 years younger than them.
For single women age 20, the modeled ratio is approximately 90%, which means that for every 100 single women at age 20, there are only about 90 single men who are 1 to 5 years older in the pool of potential marriage candidates. For single women age 25, the modeled ratio is only around 80%, and for single women age 30, the modeled ratio drops to around 60%.
In other words, the ratios decrease with increasing age, since as more men marry, there are proportionally fewer remaining single men to pair with the remaining single women. For example, with a ratio of 80%, there are 80 men for 100 women. If, say, 20 of the 80 men marry 20 of the 100 women, then 60 men and 80 women remain, reducing the ratio to 75%. In the extreme case, if all 80 men marry, then there remain 20 women with no possible match. Practically, this forces the age gap to widen further as the single women must consider even older single men. In general, wider age gaps decrease the ratio, which magnifies the problem.
Shadchanim, parents, and rabbis must recognize this demographic trend and prevent it from causing an ongoing tragedy in our community. This can be done by fostering an environment that encourages men to date and marry women closer to their own age. To be clear, on an individual level, each shidduch should continue to be pursued based on its own particular merits. But it is important to reverse the trend among shidduchim in general. In doing such, the balance between what may be good for the individual versus what is in the best interest of the community must be sought.
girls were startng shiduchs @ 19 and boys a few yrs later
A made up, and probably untrue assumption. Even if it were true, if (and this p4obably is true), families were typically smaller, you wouldn’t see the same disparity between boys and girls in shidduchim.
MY point was just that there seems that there was no imbalance between buys and girls as you have today
That’s because the factors causing the current disparity (population growth and age gap) were not extant to the degree they are today (or, more precisely, to the degree they were about two decades ago).
I don’t agree with the first part of your post. How do we have the right to assume that other areas of performance are related to learning TSBP? That’s not a machlokes in metziys, that’s an assumed metzius based on extrapolation, with a huge “meiheicha teisi”.
As far as applying it, we do it the same as historically was done. As I understand it, we don’t encourage it, yet, we don’t stop a woman who is so inclined, but we don’t go out of our way to help.
Yikkumpurkan, your “evidence” is based on unfounded assumptions.
Why do the same people working on age gap need to be the ones working on other factors? Go ahead and identify the “other factors”, and get to work!
PAA, if you assume that it wasn’t recommended for women to learn for lack of intelligence in some measurable quantity, it’s possible to say nishtana hateva. I don’t think we assume that way; rather we assume that it’s some subtle difference in how women and men process and analyze certain types of information, which we can’t quantify, so the same gedarim apply nowadays as did in the times of Chazal, and women learning Torah shebaal peh has it’s limitations.
Am I the only one who just didn’t understand the article?
No, popa, Joseph didn’t either.
And excuse me, but I don’t think I’m a nobody. (I’m not totally convinced that boys are ready to get married at 20, but nor am I convinced that they’re not.)
Golfer, I think you’re being a bit too harsh on the poster who requested I remove the post. For the reasons I explained, I felt the need to post what I did, and I still think that way, but we mustn’t forget what singles (both men and women) are going through. I think it was a fair point and a reasonable request, even if I didn’t acquiesce (the moderator was willing to accommodate had I so decided).
(Addressing SA83 and others as well):
The “blame free” theory is undoubtedly true, and if there are other issues (and there most certainly are) that doesn’t in any way diminish the need to address the gap.
I think there is a lot of talking over each other’s heads going on here, based on different definitions of the “shidduch (crisis) [catastrophe]”.
There are two aspects to it.
So if someone wants to define the shidduch (crisis) [catastrophe] solely according to the areas in which we are, as a society or as individuals, to blame, he is ignoring a significant part of the issue.
Yes, only focusing on the gap also ignores a big part of the issue, but that’s a petty reason to shout down those who are addressing age gap.
Oomis, we’ve been through this before: 1) those who segregate more, if anything, have less of a shidduch problem. Think chassidim.
2) What you mention doesn’t explain why more girls are left out.
As to why we have only noticed a shidduch crisis now (actually the disparity was noted at least twenty years ago), the yeshivish family barely existed 55-60 years ago, so there’s no similar dating pattern (age gap)/family size (population growth) society to compare to today’s. I don’t really think the question even starts.