Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
WIY,
What does this have to do with yiras shomayim?
??? ???? ??? ????
🙂
How? No din Torah as far as I know, no bickering, just a question if there’s a way to ask for proper shadchanus properly.
Interjection, thanks for the clarification.
Popa, the whole Sukkah, today’s daf, Yoma, or Rosh Hashanah?
Interjection, I am moche on behalf of plumbers. I have had to use several, and they were all honest.
HaLeiVi, a bit convoluted, no? Since I don’t see any hint of that in Rashi, I’ll go with poshut pshat.
Health, the Chazon Ish precisely deals with that passuk. He says it’s a chok, not a mishpat, and does not apply where the chacham is permitted to use his judgement.
You should make the effort to get hold of a copy. It’s worth it. (It’s not on hebrewbooks, or I’d link you.)
AZOI.IS, are you reading Syag’s post as saying that we should get rid of shadchanim and go the pizza shop route? I don’t; she’s making a point about bitachon. If you want to counter with a description of the role hishtadlus plays in our actions, that’s fair. But if you think she’s advocating for hefkerus in dating, I can assure you that she’s not.
Someone still didn’t see my post…
(I don’t see a Ritva on Sukkah on hebrewbooks, but I have a Mossad Harav Kook one.)
No, the Gemara says that the person is not sitting in the shade of the schach, nothing to do with the defined purpose of the schach.
okay but let me ask you if your child were to get engaged you can easily shell out 5K?
I don’t think AZ necessarily disagrees with your point. He wrote:
if 4k-5k per side per completed shidduch is to big a burden and it may well be
HaLeiVi, I don’t see how you read that into Rashi, nor how such a pshat would explain the words of the Gemara.
PAA, you keep on focusing on making a specific point kefirah, yet Ben Levi’s argument is that it’s not one point which is kefirah, it’s the totality of the approach.
WIY, it’s not that the gemara is only referring to a sukkah in E.Y.; the shiur of 20 amos applies to a sukkah in any location. The point of reference, though, which the Torah is using to tell us the shiur is a sukkah in E.Y.
(can’t believe popa thinks 34 minutes is enough time to understand a DY post; what an insult)
It’s an insult to Rashi’s depth to think I can understand even if I spend a week on one Rashi, but I try to do the best I can in the time I use for it.
The gemara also deserves more attention than we give it, but whatever we do is still nechmadim m’zahav umipaz rav.
I think that’s Abaye’s kashya on Rava, as explained by Rashi on amud beis.
???? ????? ?????. ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??????:
I don’t know who or what cases you refer to, but maybe it’s your negius? Or maybe, even if they were wrong, it wasn’t due to bias, just legitimate opinion?
So I looked at the Ritva. Avram in MD and MDG were m’chaven to his first teirutz.
I think his second teirutz says that even directly overhead, above 20 amos would not cast enough of a shadow to be considered proper tzel for schach.
Zahavasdad, correct.
Popa, can I marry your daughter?
Ethnicity, frankly, should have nothing to do with it.
That’s true, but cultural differences can be very important, and I’m not talking about kibbe and hamin.
There are different expectations from marriage between different cultural groups, even among frum Yidden. I think, for example, that Litvish should tread carefully when considering marrying Chassidish. Not that it’s ch’v wrong, or shouldn’t be done, just that you need to really look into it well before going out.
You said he’s Sefardi, but that’s also very general; there are different cultures even among different groups which are referred to as Sefardim.
As a silly example, the CR seems to be on the topic of taking out the garbage. If the man grew up in a home where it was only done by women, and she grew up in a hone where it was only done by men, they’re going to have different expectations as to who will take out the garbage.
More importantly, in their homes, there may have been different ways of showing mutual respect, which can lead to serious misunderstanding.
I don’t think any of this is my own chiddush, I think this is what the gemara means when it recommends marrying someone from the same town.
I’m not referring to the OP, hopefully it’s been ascertained that this won’t be an issue in this case, however I think the point should be made.
To reiterate, I’m not saying such marriages can’t and don’t work, I just think that both parties need to understand where each other is coming from, and make sure that they’re on the same wavelength.
The implication of your first point is that she can sit at home and expect to be treated like a queen on her throne. Although she doesn’t need to get a 9-5 office job, and it’s the husband’s contractual obligation to support, there is a certain obligation on her part. The gemara talks about spinning thread.
Your other points all seem to indicate that you feel the Torah gives her the right to completely take over the finances, and obligate you to large amounts of debt . While it is assumed that a wife can take care of normal household expenses, and it’s unhealthy for a husband to micromanage her expenditures, you present it (and maybe I’m reading this wrong) as if she is causing serious financial harm, and I don’t know if this is your skewed perspective or her irresponsibility, but it certainly isn’t the Torah’s fault.
I hope your counselling can help you both understand the other’s point of view. and help you come to reasonable expectations of each other.
Also, at least three of your four assumptions are wrong, but more important at this point than a lesson in hilchos kesubah, I think you and your wife need marriage counseling. Good luck.
No problem, HaLeiVi, that’s what I’m here for. 🙂
Oh, I thought you meant because she made her husband take out the garbage.
Daas Yachid, I would tend to believe that most people do not think it is ever a good ideas to hire someone for any service without having at least a ballpark figure idea of what it will cost them.
So ask. Nobody said you can’t do research in advance. You can even ask the shadchan if you want, but you just can’t have taynas if after the fact, the shadchan expects the minimum within the going range.
I don’t care WHAT the service is. And I seriously doubt that Halacha expects people to fork over “the going rate” for said service, if it might impoverish them.
Ok, so you think I’m lying, and so is AZ, and so are the two lengthly articles quoted in the thread?
I assure you that were I to need to pay $1,000-$2,000 per child to a shadchan today, I would not be able to do so.
I have two answers for that, and you might think they’re contradictory, but they’re not. The first answer is that you can certainly ask the shadchan to consider your financial situation. As I mentioned earlier, you can even ask the shadchan their fee up front, and tell them tat you can only afford x amount. If you stipulate in advance, you can make that candy dish perfectly halachically acceptable.
The second answer may sound a bit cynical, but I ask sincerely: if you can’t afford the $1000 for the shadchan, how do you expect to pay for a wedding, which costs tens of thousands of dollars?
So I guess my daughters will have to find some other way to meet their basherter.
Either way, may it be b’karov!
Very slightly edited
Pickle beer does not improve the flavor of coffee cake.
Gefen noodle soup
Pour spice packet, vegetable packet, and hot water in container of Gefen noodle soup (the tomato flavor is the best). Let sit for five minutes. Say brochoh. Eat. Say brochoh.
to avoid the bickering and potential bad blood
As I said, I don’t think it actually happens.
Does it count if you start too early?
Anyhow, I vote that BaalHabooze’s question gets this thread into the new Sukkah section. Mods, please? TIA.
Oh. I thought you did the first.
.Any eight hour speech sessions coming up?
Aw, shucks. I was gonna call you a big fat jerk for not reminding me. Now you ruined it.
Oh, and mazel tov.
Still, nobody here has stated what the “going rate” is.
Actually, AZ has.
You asked your Rav; what did he say?
If their Rav tells them $450 and the shadchan reasonably expected $950 what then.
Do you want to know realistically, or theoretically?
Realistically, the vast majority, if not all, shadchanim will probably accept the money and say, “thank you”.
Theoretically, the shadchan can bring the mechutan to an arbitrator or beis din, who will determine whose idea of the going rate is accurate. A Baal din’s rav can’t impose his psak on the other baal din unless he agrees to accept him as arbiter.
Avram, thank you.
The other misunderstanding may have arisen from the OP’s categorizing the “candy dish” gift giving as the giver’s attempt to patur himself from the mitzvah of paying the shadchan.
I hear that. I think that in the yeshiva world, it is well known that shadchanus gelt is a chiyuv, but less so in less yeshivish circles, which likely contributes to AZ’s observation that standard shadchanus in less yeshivish circles is lower.
So yes, maybe the OP should have been dan l’kaf z’chus that the mechutan didn’t know. In fairness, he did word that part of his comment as general, “Just wondering, do poor people feel they dont have to pay Shadchanus and are patur with a candy dish, etc?”, although the next part, “Although Ive heard from a well knwn Shadchan that they got less from their wealthy Shidduchim and more from their Shidduchim involving people who dont have any money.” would indicate that he felt this particular mechutan was being stingy.
So I can hear a sense that the OP was subtly calling this mechutan stingy, but in no way can I feel that attacks on him for a subtle, possibly unintentional, hint, are justified.
Not what I know, what I think.
To justifiably attack the OP, you would have to know that the OP meant something harmful. I don’t think it’s fair to attack on a safek.
If you don’t think my (and I believe Logician’s) reading is at least reasonable, I can’t help you, yet I still don’t think the insults of calling the OP a whiner, lacking middos, and not commiserating with poverty, are justified and free of the issue of ona’as d’vorim. Don’t you agree?
Syag, see my post to Avram. I don’t read the OP’s second post, and certainly not the first, as whining. I think what happened here was very wrong. There’s a very real issur of ona’as d’vorim, even on the internet, and although I don’t know if being dan l’kaf z’chus applies to an anonymous poster, it would have saved some from feeling the need to bash the OP.
Why do you think the OP came here to vent, instead of confronting the mechutan? I’ll tell you why, probably because he was uncomfortable causing machlokes. In return, he gets a bunch of posters reading in to his posts something he never (IMO) meant, and unfairly insulting him, which he never did. I think a few posters owe the OP an apology.
Avram, thank you. I don’t think there’s a bigger mentch in the CR (maybe not in MD either).
I’ve been wondering what set everyone off about the OP, and maybe you’ve hit upon it, but I don’t think you have to read that comment the way you did.
Is the OP really saying that he would stalk a poor person for shadchanus? I don’t think so.
What would you do if you were in a position to pay a shadchan (may that happen at the proper time), but couldn’t afford it (may you in fact be able to afford generous shadchanus b’ravchus)?
After asking a shaila, let’s say you were told that you owe a minimum of $750. I’ll tell you what I think you would do. You would ask the shadchan if he could please accept shadchanus on a payment plan, as you really can’t afford it right now. Or, you might even request that he accept a candy dish
as a token of your great appreciation and please be moichel the rest. If this happened to the OP(‘s relative?), I have no reason to think he would have started a thread in the CR.
I’ll also tell you what you would not do. You would not try to unilaterally pattur yourself from a $750 chov with a $17.95 candy dish from Amazing Savings (or whatever they have in MD).
This is what the OP thought was being done (I think he might have been wrong about that), and writing his question in an anonymous forum in no way violates lo sihyeh lo k’nosheh.
RisingSun613, having kids isn’t required by halacha for women. Do you think only men should have kids, since the women have no mitzvah, and they might chas v’shalom have daughters who wear long earrings?
Also, there are clip on earrings, so I think the only real solution would be to cut off everyone’s ears. 🙂
My wife does think that tznius applies to jewelry, and is careful with what she wears, and lets our daughter wear. I just don’t see piercing the ears as in any way shape or form being a compromise in tznius.
Because with a bit of thought, you might realize that when people like the Chazon Ish say something, it can’t be lightly dismissed, certainly not at the expense of eternal life.
I have another kashya. The OP only says “Baruch Hashem” about those who find their bashert very quickly and start a family. If anything, though, someone who waited and were then able to start a family would feel more grateful, and shout “Baruch Hashem” with every fiber of their being!
So, my sweetest friends, I will share with you that I think the OP is saying something deep – very, very deep.
We know in Chassidus it says that ugly people have more yiras shomayim. Of course the lamed vov tzaddikim, who know the secret of being real, see people with yiras shomayim as exquisitely beautiful, but as for the rest of us, who ate a big breakfast in the Rennaisance (or at least have a big breakfast waiting for us), they’re hideous.
So I think what the holy OP is telling us is that people who lack yiras shomayim, who tend to get married right away, can still have a good marriage if they learn to always say Baruch Hashem.
And the chiddush of the seifa (give me harmony, hold on the last note) is that even the holy, holy people with such awesome yiras shomayim that it takes them a bit longer to get married, also need tips from the OP to keep their marriage strong.