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rb,
IJMO’s original post (which is the one I commented on) referred only to “yasherko(i)ach” as “fake frum”. “Fake frum” in my book, is, as you said, unnecessary chumras, especially at the expense of others. I would call a girl who asks, “so, do you shtelzuch on the rishoinim?” “fake yeshivish”. “Yasherko(i)ach, or “shkoiach” has become pretty accepted by some (although I still find it a bit amusing coming from a female). I wouldn’t hold “shkoiach” against her.
I always check my spells. Double, double, toil and trouble . . .
Witch ones do you check?
cherrybim,
You would need a better reason to be matir an issur of geneiva than that you think it seems strange, and that some people (not poskim) regard it as a sham.
DY b’michlas kvod toruschu…..
I hope you’re being facetious 🙂
I dont hear any chiluk bet. a stipulation prior to the transaction to friends which is void . to unspoken terms during the transaction. Fact of the matter is all terms must be out spoken b’shas mechirah. They can expect you to read jackets and shmackets but halacha requires all terms to be mentioned during a transaction.
If you mean “spoken” rather than written (or printed), I don’t see why that should matter.
If you are questioning whether the buyer has a valid claim if he says he was unaware that it was a rental, that’s a possibility (I don’t know if the seller has a right to expect the buyer to read the “shmacket” or not); I am assuming that the buyer saw that it’s a rental.
Your point about the store owner and distributor being three separate parties is valid, and certainly must be considered. Factually, I believe that, at least in the case of Aderet, every artist/producer has a separate agreement, but the distributor is Aderet, which ultimately owns the CDs and they distribute them to the store.
For simplicity’s sake, let’s take a case in which someone makes a transaction at Mostly Music in Boro Park which is owned by Aderet (which I think is owned by Mendy Werdyger). The “seller” is actually Aderet, and the clerk works for Aderet. The owner of Aderet is not present for every transaction, and doesn’t want to burden the clrk to specify at each transaction whther it’s a purchase or rental. He therefore notifies the consumer by printing it on the CD jacket. i see no reason why any assumption was made that he changed his mind between the time of printing and the time of sale.
When distributed to a different store, for the rental to be in affect, either the store would have to be renting it to the consumer, subleasing it to the consumer, or merely acting as an agent of the distributor. If he in fact bought it from the distributor with no conditions attached, and then sold it to the consumer, I assume the printed rental agreement would be worthless.
Regarding treifos and milk, I’ve heard that Rav Belsky is matir (but not based on bitul; I don’t know if he also agrees to bitul), and Rav Yechezkel Roth is matir based on bitul. I am also told that the CY companies are machmir, and I agree with you that this is another legitimate reason to be machmir to buy CY products..
It actually was “yasherkoiach”…after a game of scrabble.
Sorry, girls speaking yeshivish is in a totally different league. Like my friend who told me a girl asked him on a date, “so, do you shtelzuch on the rishoinim?”
Why is that “fake frum”?
“As a rule, I don’t go in cars on dates… too much chance for yichud and all that. However, I have a rickshaw here that you can use to pull me around town.”
Now that would be “fake frum”!
Truthfully shadchanus is as much as one wants to give combined with how much u can afford.
I think it’s a chiyuv, based on the going rate.
If it will make your chavrusa feel bad, then yes.
If it will disturb others, then yes.
I will add: if it will make it difficult to admit you’re wrong if a strong argument is made against your opinion, then yes.
since it is not mentioned in tranaction but merely stating on the jacket theus the rental is buttul.
They expect you to read and accept the terms at the time of the transaction; they didn’t merely tell their friends.
BTW dass yochid – what is your level of halacha education?
Not relevant; I don’t expect anyone to accept or reject my arguments based on anything other than their own strengths or weaknesses. For halacha l’maaseh, ask your posek.
FYI according to some’; R moshe zatzal’s kula on cholov yisroel is no longer applicable, since nowadays there are punctures which render the animal traifa , which is common in the non-cholov yisroel. the cholov yisroel farms avoid those traifa animals.
might be genaiva
also might be cholv treifa issur deoraisa ,
True; I was comparing to the theoretical heter of cholov stam assuming no issues of treifa. Besides, most poskim, according to my understanding, are meikil on that shaila (based on bittul), whereas I know of no poskim who are meikil on the rental issue.
i my opinon rental agreements are null and void, because devorim shebelev ainun devorim. BUT i am not a posek.
If it wasn’t printed on the CD jacket, you’d be right, but it is.
Better question – if it is so effective, why aren’t ALL the producers using this rental setup? Why only Aderet?
You would have to ask them, but my guess is because some people are upset about the rental, as evidenced here. It’s probably a business decision.
BTW, Aderet is a distributor and not always the producer of the CDs they distribute.
When people brought bikurim to Yerushalaim, they stood up for them.
Why did they stand up for them? Maybe it was so as not to discourage them from making the long and difficult trip in the future? If so, that would be different than other mitzvos, which might not require standing up.
WiFi isnt an internet access provider.
Did someone ask about internet providers?
(one said to me “yasherkoach”).
What’s wrong, she should have said “yasherkoiach”?
No assurances for later outbursts. (I did write the ‘just my 2 cents’ disclaimer, didn’t I?)
I did write the “just kidding” disclaimer, didn’t I?
HaShem in his great wisdom created BOTH versions of humanity. Each one with its own characteristics to succeed in productive life. We NEED both models – just the way they are. A man with masculine attributes, and a woman with feminine ones. No need to mix and match. Certainly no need to bicker and bash. To denigrate one variant over the other shows lack of appreciation of the Ribono Shel Olam. As if something ?? ????? is lacking in His creation.
If she’s too preachy (just kidding) 🙂
Canine named himself after Wolf.
What is the precise basis in halacha that a purchased (not rented) CD cannot be copied (for a friend)?
If you mean without even a t’nai, that’s a tough one. Throughout the years, the gedolei hador have protected the publishers of seforim from infringement of their “copyrights”. I don’t know the firm basis for that either. There’s a teshuva from R’ Moshe prohibiting copying a recorded shiur (which is being sold), and I don’t know the firm basis for that either. I don’t think there’s any gemara that discusses “intellectual rights”. The reason that music producers had to start with the t’nai and now the rental is because some poskim were in fact matir copying, because the source for the issur is so fuzzy. Of course, the way the yetzer hora works, many people followed the minority opinion permitting copying.
DY, this was discussed by so many poskim that have said a person can many a copy for themselves.
If they said it even when the producer specifically is makpid, and has this new rental agreement, then I stand corrected, although I don’t understand why I’m wrong.
There was an interview a few years ago in Mispacha magazine in which one Jewish music personality said that he is even makpid on one copy, and claimed that R’ Elyashiv backed his right to do so. I don’t understand how in today’s day, when most people listen on mp3 players, he can reasonably expect people to only listen to the actual CD. I called his distributor (Aderet) to clarify, and the answer I got was “most producers allow one copy”. Before I got the chance to follow up, the phone was hung up.
Tums,
The CD itself has printed on it that it’s a rental (although obviously not the full agreement). So the buyer will know (albeit after he receives it) that it’s a rental.
I agree, the idea of “reselling” these rentals is interesting.
DY, do you work for Aderet? Why are you so adamantly defending them?
No. Read my last post (which I think crossed yours in the mail). 🙂
Regarding your next point, I mentioned already that if the store and the distributor are not on the same page, the rental agreement might not work (just my theory). I also pointed out that the store owner can’t sell what he doesn’t own (without g’neiva involved).
The reason I “defend” them? Because I think there’s a real chance that copying might be g’neiva, which is, I think, something even more important to be makpid on than, say, cholov Yisroel.
I’ll again repeat, though, that most producers allow one copy to be made.
so let me ask again; Lets say they can stop me from coping for myself, is it right for them to stop me from using something I paid for?
In my opinion, no. But it probably works. There might be loopholes, and if I’m right about the loopholes, I wouldn’t feel it was wrong to utilize them (let me again stress if I paid for it).
The possible loopholes that I know of: copying off of a download, copying off of an already illegally made copy.
IOW, if I paid for a CD, it’s possible (according to my theories) that I would not be able to copy from my own CD, but I could copy from someone else’s pirated or downloaded copy. Ironic, I know, but possibly true.
Yes, I also think it was a typo. When I become perfect, I’ll complain 🙂
Observateen, you did the right thing. Another way to take care of such a situation…
The first way was right.
Even on Tisha B’av we are permitted to respond to an “inappropriate” greeting with a quiet curt response.
Different kind of inappropriate.
DOS was just the breaking news when I started working
Am I that old? 🙂
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/twisting-usernames#post-197601
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I can type in Hebrew!!!!!
I have Hebrew on my computer, but that’s good to know; thanks.
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You can’t sell what you don’t own; I would assume that you could tranfer the lease (but I can’t guarantee it) but the new owner would not have any more rights than you. And you probably can’t keep any copies or files which you made while you owned the rights. (That may depend on the shaila of copying what you didn’t purchase.)
Your welcome, keep ’em coming!
IOW, you are saying a download is impossible to rent. Or that the website is missing any disclaimer declaring it a rental? It seems to me that it would be impossible to “rent” an intangible asset, like a download — even with the proper terminology on the website.
I think I already mentioned that I don’t know if they can regulate a download.
What I meant with this point is that they don’t mention a rental option on the CD. They call it BUY CD.
I am sorry for not being more clear.
If you are a bit older than 14, you could have nodded and said hello then walked on and ignored them.
They looked like yeshiva bochurim, which means they knew better, and were not up to any good. Her response was correct.
Good one, The Goq (two, actually).
I complimented The Goq.
You did the right thing.
I agree.
There are some possible arguments to question the validity of the rental, but I haven’t yet seen them brought up here.
Which arguments, that you know of, haven’t been brought up yet?
Sorry, I missed that earlier post.
One of them was mentioned, that the agreement between all of the earlier parties (producer-distributor-store) would need to be done correctly.
The other, I also hinted at; they are sometimes inconsistent in how they term the transaction. If they sometimes refer to the transaction as a sale, would that invalidate the “rental”? I don’t know.
One example is what I mentioned previously, that on the same CD it says:
“THIS CD IS BEING RENTED NOT SOLD
Ask your retailer for a copy of the rental agreement, also see enclosed copy”
and then it says:
???? ????? ?? ??????-???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?????????
Also, on the Mostly Music website (Aderet), there are two options: Buy CD, and Buy Download.
Again, I am not claiming that this definitely overrides the terminology on the CD, but it’s something to think about. If during the online purchase process nothing is mentioned about a lease (anybody have experience with this?), then they shouldn’t be able to consider it one (unless you knew beforehand that the particular CD has a lease agreement inside).
If Aderet is renting the CD to me for 20 years, that means I have a contractual rental relationship with Aderet for the next 20 years. If the CD stops working after 5 years, they must replace it. If not, it was all a joke and never a rental.
IIRC, it’s written in the agreement.
On second thought, it’s not written in, but doesn’t need to be (what is written is the opposite – that the consumer is not liable for breakage).
If the CD was defective, it would the company’s obligation to replace it (no different than a sale) but otherwise, if anything, it would be the consumers obligation (hence the exemption).
“If the transaction between the store and distributor is done correctly”
Its most probebly done by a delivery boy who dosent know by wich side to open an Shulchan Aruch.
The terms of “sale” or “rental” are not determined by the delivery boy, rather the store owner/authorized rep. and distributor/authorized rep.
So if after I rent the CD I lose or break it, I am liable to replace it for the owner (Aderet)?
They specifically exempt you from damages.
Does the rental allow me to loan my CD to my friend to play on his CD player (when I am away and don’t need it)? Can I use the CD in my friends car when driving it (or being given a ride), or on his CD player when I am at his house? Can my father, brother, or son take the CD from the living room shelf and play it (since I always let them borrow my stuff without asking)?
Yes
If so, if my relative/friend — on his own initiative and without my knowledge or permission — makes a copy, he seemingly violated nothing as he has no contractual relationship or agreement with the producer.
As far as the rental agreement, if you had no idea that they would copy it, you’re probably right. The assumption of this discussion was, though, that it’s assur, or at least a big lack of mentchlichkeit, to get a copy of a recording which you didn’t pay for (assuming it’s still being offered for sale).
If Aderet is renting the CD to me for 20 years, that means I have a contractual rental relationship with Aderet for the next 20 years. If the CD stops working after 5 years, they must replace it. If not, it was all a joke and never a rental.
IIRC, it’s written in the agreement.
Since when is a rentel agreement binding if I dident sign it. if my landlord makes me read a lease without asking my sugnature then its not valid.
You made a kinyan (s’chirus) when you took the CD (meshicha/hagbaah). Why can’t the conditions be verbal (without a shtar)? we’re discussing m’talt’lin; you’re comparing karka.
besides i’m buying the tape from the retailer who at that point is the owner so how can the previous owner (the producer) rent it to me?
The store owner can’t sell you something he doesn’t own. If the transaction between the store and distributor is done correctly (I don’t know if it is), this should not be an issue.
gefen,
What’s a thread without some controversy 🙂
What’s FB?
some storeowners feel comfortable hiring “nisht a yid”
Are there yidden willing to do the same job for the same wages?
I’ve heard that when R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky was asked what his minhag is regarding walking to the chupah, he said his minhag is to do whatever his mechutanim want.
I find this highly distressing on two counts.
Firstly, it seems some posters consider this important enough to do research into it beforehand. Please tell me you are kidding.
Secondly, it seems some posters think it is ok to assert this much control over your children. This sounds heavily excessive and borderline abusive. Then you wonder why your son is abusing his wife.
If it’s important enough to break up a shidduch and make a huge machlokes out of, then it’s important enough to do research into, I guess.
Daas u seem to try and negate everything i say is this something personal or am just totally wrong in everything i say?
Chas v’shalom! Certainly nothing personal, and in this case, I wasn’t negating what you said, just noting that I’ve never observed it. That doesn’t mean such a minhag doesn’t exist, just that I personally don’t remember seeing it.
Now that I’ve explained that I’m not negating what you said about walking to the chuppah, does that mean I’ve negated what you said about me negating what you said? 🙂
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DY a copy is NOT valid since there is no guarantee that the copy is exactly the same as what is inside the wrapped product.
If the copy were to be different in a significant way, you could then return it for a full refund.
Breach of contract is g’neiva? If I sign a contract with you to rent an office for business purposes only, but instead I move in with the gantze mishpacha, is that g’neiva? (Just asking.)
I believe so.
Even the m’chirah b’t’nai, I was told by a big talmid chochom, had a “shiur” (exclusion) in the sale; it remains in the ownership of the producer regarding copying, and such use by the purchaser would be g’neiva.
You’re saying that the halacha for a rental is different than that for a t’nai, in that all poskim agree there is no need to refund the money for the remaining term of the rental, if the renter broke the terms of rental?
I can’t say all; I haven’t asked all of them. But certainly more.
re: side point; Sorry.
What is the reason we stand for the Kallah and not the Choson?
I don’t ever remember seeing that.
obviously when we looked for a shidduch we looked in the pool of people who were similar to us and had similar hashkafas.
Why would someone’s family minhug to walk to the chuppah differently than you want to, be a major difference in hashkafa? (Some people who have this minhug are otherwise not Chassidish in practice.) And what would happen if a particular shidduch were suitable for your child but the parents did have different hashkafas than you? You would sacrifice your child’s happiness to find mechutanim suitable for you? or to be able to walk her down with her father (as meaningful as that is to you)?
many times, things get way out of hand. agree?
No, and how dare you insult us by saying that! (Just kidding.)