Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
If you want names from tanach that I’ve never heard anyone give: Bilhah, Zilpah, Chuldah, and Ritzpah. The last is only if you want her teased for the rest of her life.
I know a Bilhah.
DY: Modeh. I didn’t think anyone else could do the Mitzva, but realize you are correct that Avraham Avinu’s Eved is a Bar Chiyuva.
Rambam Milah 2:1
??????, ?????????? ??????: ?????????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????, ????????? ??????? ???? ?????.
Looking at the Rambam in 2:2-2:4, it wouldd seem that even though Priyah is Meakev, Metziza is not (as he just says “??????????? ??????”, not ” ????????? ??? ???”). Is there anyone who holds Metziza is an Ikuv in the Mitzva? Nafka Mina is exactly my point, do you need a Bar Chiyuva to do the Metziza or not?
And if they are idiots, then I don’t care anyway.
I do, because it is the child at risk, not the parent.
PBA: I don’t disagree with you. I do think though that the Rabbonim who Pasken (and Mohalim to do MBP) that MBP is required should take a hard look at the facts and realize the consequences of the P’sak, and what will happen in Shomaiym if they are responsible for killing Yiddishe Neshamos shelo K’Halacha. Being “Machmir” (if it is that) is nice, but not when it is “Asi Lidei Misah”. They had better be really sure that they are correct.
Do you think a mohel should ask parents if theyd like MBP done?
If he is a Mohel that does MBP, yes. If not, he should tell the parents that he does not do MBP. I’m for full disclosure.
I’ve never been to a shul that skipped it
Same here.
2) MBP doesn’t have to be performed by the mohel, it can be someone else.
Why? After all, if it is part of the Mitzva then it needs to be done by a Bar Hachei?
The gedolim who say not to do it are the ones who hold it isn’t halacha anyway.
Yup. And those who hold it is M’akev will not care what to government says, which is why we end up where we are. Two groups of Torah Yidden not understanding each other, and accusing each other of being betraying their religion and being unreasonable.
My point here was that MBP is (logically) more of a sakana than eating an onion that was left out overnight.
You misread that. It’s the evidence which is small and significantly limited, not the amount of herpes cases caused by MBP, none of which were proven.
That is why I want to see the study.
Machsheffa
That is already the name (or at least the nickname) of his Mother In-Law (Had to get that one in 🙂
Really? You’re attempting to prove from that passuk what is halachically required for a bris?
Absolutely. Perhaps we should NOT use pesukim to learn halacha?
DY: From the article:
What do you think they would find if they did a study regarding eating onions that were left out overnight without the stem?
Besides, the issue brought by the article is the limitations inherent in the previous studies done, not the actual results. I would like to see the actual study before I would decide to reject the previous conclusions. Small and significantly limited is still too much in the view of many, myself (and many Gedolim) included.
Once again, I don’t think that is the point.
It is hypocritical that the same liberal crowd that defends a nurse that stands idly by as an old woman collapses clearly dying takes up the battle cry of vnishmartem meod.
I’ll take this one up.
Lomdus: V’Nishmartem certainly doesn’t apply the same when dealing with Shev V’al Ta’ase. All of the end of life seforim agree on this.
S’vorah: We are much more concerned regarding the helpless who made no choice, and less concerned with those who purposefully check themselves into somewhere that will not revive them.
Boich: We are concerned about Yidden. How many Yiddishe children need to die or get permanently injured before you say “enough”? One? Five? Ten? Chazal were mesaken Gezairos even if there was a possibility of Sakana, like eating onions that were left overnight without the “stem”. MBP is certainly more risky than eating a day old onion. If some random old woman wants to die, who am I to stop her?
Pasuk:
???????????–????-?????????? ????????, ??????: ???????????, ??????? ?????????
When Avraham Avinu did his own Bris, he certainly did not do MBP. Perhaps he used a tube, and probably (IMHO) did not do it at all.
Do I have to bring more?
That being said, I believe the law is wrong and bad policy on the part of the city. Before they start regulating MBP, they should regulate much more dangerous activities like not vaccinating your children and homebirths.
Gila, Rena, Ditza, Chedva, Ahava, Achva, Shalomit & Reut?
Yael, Michal, Serach, Chulda, Devorah.
BasSheva is very common, especially due to the Rebbitzen. How about Rus (Used to be common, but I don’t think it is now)?
NiLi, BaKol, Tirtza, Na’ama, Timmima
Can you narrow it down a little?
If the parents are not likely to expose their kids to the things which I don’t want to have my kids, in turn, exposed to, then I’m not advocating exclusion. If they are, then it’s their own choices which are “not giving their kids a fighting chance”.
I understand where you are coming from. However, it is not our “daas” that should decide the risk/reward calculation of accepting (or rejecting) a child whose parents “might” (or even “do”) expose their children to something that we may agree we do not want our children exposed to. That is why a Rov who knows the school, family, child & situation should be asked in every individual case.
Now of course, the school does not have to accept all comers, and there are good reasons to not accept a child (for example, the child is not from the area and there is no room, or the school can not afford to take the child that will not pay tuition over the child that will). The possibility of “exposure” to “something” (and it may be as innocent as an uncle or sibling who is not frum or is frum but (Chas V’Shalom) wears a blue shirt) is sometimes very much out of hand, and should be an individual shailah.
Boruch Dayan Emes.
Gavra, I don’t disagree, from the POV of the school, but what ‘m really advocating is non acceptance to pre-school.
Can’t do that. If the parent wants to give his/her child a fighting chance in this crazy world, who are we to tell them no? Especially if no other school will take them, you may as well send the child off to be a monk.
“other” kids don’t cause kids to go off the derech.
I’m going to have to disagree. Children who are exposed to things for which they are incapable of handling will be scarred, no matter who exposes them. And peer pressure is a tremendous force, both for good & evil.
I agree.
Same here. Mods, please delete the offending statement.
I have a relative who went to Pomegranate to shop for the first time and was very impressed by the ambiance. Comparing it to KRM (Big bulk in Boro Park, I imagine?) seems to me exactly like comparing Costco to Whole Foods or Trader Joes.
Apples to silver polish.
Okay, now, my personal agenda in this, as a parent: shouldn’t I insist that my sons not be in a class where a number of classmates are on their phones sharing shmutz with each other other IN SCHOOL? Is this not pikuach nefesh for my kids?
Aha! An agenda!!!
Too bad it is one that I agree with, so I can’t even argue. As we “10th Amendment” Americans sometimes say, vote with your feet, but don’t kick other children out where they will just become worse without asking a real Shailah.
To address your side point, presentations enhancing bein adam l’chavero are quite appropriate for a day on which we mourn tragedies brought by sinas chinom.
I hear, but don’t agree (and yes, I know there are “Gedolim” that argue). It still takes one’s mind off the Churban. Perhaps it should be done as a small part of a greater picture, but not as the main thrust.
Gavra, watch the video.
I can’t, Boruch Hashem.
but we wouldn’t if used by a veggie salesman.
I would, and I would hope most others would as well.
There is a serious problem with your statement. You seem to assume that Rav Shteinman’s statement was specific to that situation, but that the exclusionary policies are otherwise acceptable. My reaction: Chas veshalom. At the very least, the dinei nefashos of allowing a child to have no yeshiva (Chazon Ish – a general psak) must be posed to a Gadol beYisroel.
Nope. I’m just saying that the P’sak given only applied in that very specific case, and I have no idea what the P’sak would be in other cases. As we agree, an individual question must be asked for each student and each yeshiva, with the Rav that is asked having intimate knowledge of exactly what the situation is, both for the school and the child in question.
Better question: What does CR feel about the alleged incident where a group of Yeshiva bachurim held a barbeque near Yad V’Shem yesterday?
If they can sell Yom Hashoah BBQ aprons (google it), it must be acceptable.
Besides, they were “fake” Yeshiva Bochrim. The article on YNet says:
While the neighboring Yad Vashem museum held a somber memorial service, the yeshiva students and young haredi women gathered around smoking grills.
Real Charaidim would never BBQ with their wives, and certainly not in public.
I know this will be controversial, but….
Ittisa and I recently had a discussion (DMC) regarding the Holocaust. I was adamant and she agrees, that as the Torah says:
???????? ????????, ???????????? ??????? ?????????.
All punishments given to Klal Yisroel are rooted in the Chet HaEigel. We (as a Klal) have not rectified and/or have done proper Teshuva for that Avairah and its causes, so we continue to be punished.
A significant problem (IMHO) is that since the punishment of Churban Europe was so great, it (many times) overshadows (at this point in our history) the Churban HaBayis, Chas V’Shalom. V’haraya, the presentations regarding Churban on Tisha B’Av are that of Churban Europe, not Churban HaBayis. Perhaps for that reason alone we should have a separate day, so that the Churban HaBayis could be mourned properly. (As a side point, presentations pushing Kiruv or Shmiras HaLashon are wonderful, but are NOT the point of Tisha B’av, which is a day of mourning regarding the destruction of the Batei Mikdash).
That being said, IMHO (and I am in no way a “gadol”) the appropriate day for mourning Churban Europe would be the 17th of Tammuz, which is the day of the Chet HaEigel. We would then remember how our Chataim cause us to be punished until this day, and how we should due Teshuva. Three weeks later, we would then be able to appropriately mourn individually for the loss of the Batei HaMikdash.
Once again, I’m not a Gadol, but those are my thoughts.
I’m not sure what makes you think that this is a change of heart on my part.
It seemed to me like you were dancing around the point, but fair enough. So you agree with me?
often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”
That’s really the key line, and that is certainly subjective.
It is often true, but it doesn’t have to be true. I can brainwash you into eating your veggies (or going to college, or stop being a Toaivanik), and it would still be brainwashing.
To assume that R’ Aharon Leib meant all of this is absurd; he was referring to the educational system within the chareidi world, the values of whose families are much more closely aligned than that.
I’m glad that you have come around and seen the truth.
When a Gadol Paskens (unless it is a S”HUT Sefer where he brings the reasoning), it is only meant for the specific individual that asks. Just becuse Rav Shteinman said something in one specific case for one specific school (and probably one specific child) doesn’t mean it can be applied anywhere else.
The same is true for all questions asked to “Gedolim”.
If the teacher said, “when you have your own kids, you’ll understand”, would she be brainwashing the students into marriage and having kids?
No, “the teacher” would be brainwashing NOT to have children 😉
That being said, it depends on the context and whether it is systematic. If the course is regarding diaper changing and it is in the open, then no. Once again from Wikipedia:
Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual “systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”.[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
(Emphasis added).
Each case has to be looked at in context to see whether the Da’as of a person is being subverted.
However, to insist all seminaries as “brainwashers” merely because they espouse a hashkafa that you disagree with is intellectually dishonest.
As I have said earlier, I have no problem with a Bais Yaakov that honestly espouses its world-view.
When a teacher says “when you go to college, you will see the full extent of this concept” odds are that he is not intentionally trying to brainwash his students to go to college; he is simply speaking from his assumptions.
Agreed. IMHO it is not brainwashing/mind control to state that a concept will be understood more in higher learning, no less than a Rebbe bringing up the Pashut Pshat in Rashi and saying there is a deeper Pshat.
Now, I do agree that the BY system should be more open to answering questions, and should perhaps inform its students of financial the realities of kollel life; but that doesn’t make the entire system “brainwashing”.
Agreed. This does:
My seminary principal and many teachers tried the first technique of brainwashing, saying when you’ll be teaching and supporting your husband you’ll appreciate this tip giving a random money saving tip in a random lesson.
Gavra, there is still a long term effect.
I agree, which is why I do it myself. As I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with convincing someone to go one way or the other (which is what Chinuch is). The children get to ask (sometimes very good) questions, and we (as parents and mechanchim) try to answer. If our answers are not satisfactory (as per their Da’as), they will go elsewhere.
The only issue (I have, and define as) with “brainwashing” is subjecting someone to something that takes away their Da’as, such as (as an example)(I would think) using social control measures (as well as others) to punish someone for asking a question.
As for your specific point, the Ribbono Shel Olam is always relevant to any conversation.
Sam2: Yes, I’m sure that was not the Kesiva that is Assur on Shabbos. The writing is Kesiva, matching up numbers is not.
Interestingly, I remember learning that one can use magnetic letters ON SHABBOS to “write” a message, since there is no actual Ma’ase Kesiva being done. (Of course, this assumes you are not machmir like the YU shitta not to use magnets on shabbos. Even if you are, you can “precut” letters before shabbos and use those.)
I know it sounds strange, and I don’t have the source off the top of my head, but I certainly remember learning it.
writersoul: The simple answer is that the baby doesn’t know what Torah Tziva means. The more complex answer is that brainwashing must include (by definition) “subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking”, while a baby or even a child does not really have “their own thinking”.
Women are desperate to get married.
Offen a Gemorah Al Pi Reish Lakish.
Seriously, I have no problem with anyone “pushing their views”. Why else would anyone post in the CR?
gavra_at_work: Please tell me which institution you (or your friends) attended where no professors tried to push their views.
Please post your real name, address and social security number, and then we can talk.
GAW: Why?
Why what?
DY: No.
gaw- abiecab joined less than an hour ago. No need to get worked up over anything he says.
I’m not worked up, but I’ll give the benefit of the doubt for abby cadabby 🙂 It also allows me to get up on my soap box
_____________
|@@@@@@@|
Essentially, starting new shidduchim websites, coming up with ideas to better match guys and gals, making more boy/girl get-togethers (like sponsored by the Agudah’s Invei Hagefen) and other initiatives to get single guys and girls together for a potential shidduch in a more conducive or comfortable environment really do nothing to fix the problem.
Only partially correct. Additional shaddchanim will not do much on a global level, but they can for a Kehillah. Get togethers on the other hand are outside the system, and allow matches that do not “work” on paper, including “age mismatches” (girl older than boy), and bypass the parents (who are the ones who push for younger girls) so those do help.
DY: In all fairness, I believe what ROB is saying is that the quantity of learning was greater, even if the number of full time learners was not (note that I believe he is wrong. Daf, universal yeshiva and the other programs have created a more learned and learning Yid than in Europe)
“hazal said that the Torah protects and bittul Torah can bring on tzaros. We can not always know why things happen, but Chazal and later Gedolim would sometimes tie certain tzaros to certain aveiros.”
A famous example of this is the Tosfos Yom Tov, who tied Tach V’Tat in with talking during Davening. I have heard a similar idea with the Holocaust, and how the Sephardim were (mostly) saved B’Zechus that they did not talk during davening.
Pascal’s Wager is NOT Emunah, as you do not truly believe.
I like Veltz’ response.
Gamanit: Ken Yirbu. Too many times it just falls apart, Chas V’Shalom.
DY: I asked a guy who was in Far Rockaway for Pesach and he said the same thing. So I don’t know where you are getting your information, but double-check.
One of my relatives came home from seminary talking like someone who was brainwashed. None of her opinions were anything like when she left to seminary, and had no arguments to support why this was her new opinion when we spoke to her. She kept these opinions for almost a whole year, by which time she was married and supporting a husband in learning. Then somehow she woke up and became herself again.
Very unfortunate, but not uncommon at all. This is why I say time and time again that Sems are one of the major causes of the divorce crisis (and Roshei Yeshiva say that you should not go out with a girl out of Sem until she has been deprogramed, B’Zeh Ha’Lashon (and I am not at liberty to say who)). I really feel bad for both the girl, her husband (who thought he was getting one thing and it now getting quite another), any children, and both sets of parents. Nebuch 🙁
Is it Kosher to say Mah Nishtana in Pig Latin? How about Klingon?
Only Wookie.
Gamanit: There is nothing wrong with tring to convince your students that you are correct. Brainwashing is when the convincing becomes subliminal. For example, when you are learning Math and the teacher says “When you will be in Yale, this will come in handy” is brainwashing, as Yale was brought in not as the class, but to send a message that you will be going to Yale as a fait accompli. That is opposed to a teacher getting up in class and giving a speech on the topic of why everyone should go to Yale, which would not be brainwashing, as the message is direct, not subliminal.
From Wikipedia (which admittedly is not the best source):
Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual “systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”.[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
(Emphasis added)
the fact that they dont welcome questions bugs me to no end, they want girls to be strong in their emunah yet if they ask a simple question of any sort they pounce on them seeing it as a attack agains the torah chalilah! its horrible how some girls go years with out having awnsers because they are scared how teachers will react to them.
Unfortunately, teachers in BY are mostly ignorant (and got their position by being “rebbitzens” or being able to toe the party line). The response Vogue got was probably a reaction by the teacher to something which she was covering up her inability to answer the question. It is also likely (IMHO) that she was also covering up her own feelings and questions on the system as a whole by reacting so strongly.
As Rabbi Bender has said in the Yated many times, there is no such thing as a bad question.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Benjamin Franklin
Re college brainwashing: Come on people, if you haven’t had professors who tried to push their views in college, you haven’t attended college.
I can attest this is inaccurate.
If a school teaches that you HAVE to marry a working boy and/or work yourself or it will cause harm to society, would you call that brainwashing?
Absolutely. If schools repeat the message when it is not relevent just to state it as a fact (and there are those on the MO side that do) “When you are in Yale….” that is just as much brainwashing as the sems.