gavra_at_work

SJS & DH:

Halacha requires that one feed someone who is starving without asking, so seemingly it is more critical. (YD 251:10).

If you have a specific question as per which gets priority, there are halachos of Tzedaka, and a whole simin (251) one who gets priority.

For example, one is Mechuyav to support his sons to teach them how to learn before other tzedakas (AKA Tuition) (In that Siman, Halacha Gimmel).

For other specific questions, ask your Rav.

No one is entitled to be supported, and no one has the excuse to be an Ani by choice and therefore require support.

Absolutely. The exception being that klal Yisroel has a responsibility to support those that are learning Torah since it is something that benefits the klal.

I agree. The responsibility though, is on the Klal (in the person of its individuals) for the Klal, not on the individual for the individual.

Prove to me the Tolna Rebbe is a gadol, please.

Sure, just tell me what the required criteria in your eyes are to become one.

You don’t have to prove anything, Joseph does.

anonforthis:

You are right. It could be their Torah. Because I don’t know, I think the best thing is to give money to any public Torah institution–such as a kollel.

Once again agreed. There are halachos of Tzedaka involved as well. The opinion of many Rabbonim is at Tuition for your children comes first, as well as your own Limud HaTorah. As such:

The parent should not make sacrifices for his SIL if:

1: His own learning will suffer.

2: His support of others (such as other Mosdos) will suffer, especially if those other mosdos are doing more for the Klal as far as Limud HaTorah is concerned.

And since he has to support anyway because otherwise his daughter will not get a shidduch, and his learning will suffer, or he can’t pay tuition, and/or the SIL doesn’t learn with real hasmadah and will is not a good “investment”, makes the FIL resentful.

I actually think we are mostly on the same page here.

GAW and Wolf,

I think we are overlooking the brilliance of the Tolna Rebbe. He tells all his followers not to save for an apartment for their daughters. The Tolna chassidim (I assume) want their kids to marry other Tolna chassidim. So as the kids get older, none of the girls will have apartments. If they want to marry within their chassidish sect, they will have to accept no apartment.

Its the start of breaking the ridiculous apartment requirement.

Its truly brilliant.

Agreed.

Boruch Hashem for someone with vision.

A True Gadol who is willing to buck societal norms.

Boruch Hashem for giving us such Manhigim.

DH:

No one is entitled to be supported, and no one has the excuse to be an Ani by choice and therefore require support.

Agree or disagree?

The Torah of Tinokos Shel Bais Rabban are the most precious to the Rebbono Shel Olam.

As such, tuition is more critical, and they also learn 9-5 !

And I would call the Tolna Rebbe someone with no skin in the game. If he promises/swears that he will buy the apartment when the time comes and you don’t have the money, then I would give credence to his thoughts in the matter.

How do you plan to pay for your daughters apartment?

He already said he doesn’t think about it, because he has Bitachon, and “G-d will help” 🙂

DH:

100%. But who are you to say that YOU (or anyone, for that matter) deserve it?

Perhaps the money is better spent on your own child’s tuition?

If one decides to give, then all good. But when one expects to be supported, just because they decided to learn, that is Magiah Li.

I’m not sure if you get the difference, so I will give a simple example.

1: Rothschild meets up with a guy in BM who sits for 18 hrs a day 365 and learns. He decides to support this Masmid.

2: Rothschild’s son decides “I want to go learn, and Daddy, you will pay all my bills”.

First is all good, and a Y&Z relationship, the second is Magiah Li.

And yes, it is a matter of attitude and ability, which I refered to before.

No one is entitled to be supported, and no one has the excuse to be an Ani by choice and therefore require support.

DH:

No one is entitled to be supported, and no one has the excuse to be an Ani by choice and therefore require support.

Although, I do admit, that is what I mean by the “New Israeli Charaidi Hashkafa”. It is not uncommon nowdays, and I don’t blame you for the “Magiya Li” attitude. It is the norm for your (and increasingly ours as well, especialy for the youngsters) society.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I would suggest that perhaps it is an outlook that delegitimizes kollel learning because it is perceived as akin to begging or schnorering, that breeds resentment and anger. But this is not true. Hashem built this system into klal Yisroel. Shevet Levi and shevet Yissachar all were forced to rely on other people for their parnassah because they were the entrusted with perpetuating the Torah. They were the Lomdei and M’Lamdei Torah (in general) and the rest of us were the Machzikei Torah (again, in general). We gave terumos and maseros. Zevulun took care of Yissachar. Nowadays, it is the yeshivaleit and kolleleit who have this job.

OK we are getting somewhere. Thanks for keeping it civil, and Refuah Shelaima.

I think the parents who are resentful would be willing to “support” if:

1: It did not make their own life more difficult, pushing off retirement and/or making them stay longer at work, and losing both family time and time for themselves to learn.

2: The child in question was grateful toward the supporting parent(s), and not exhibiting a “holier than thou” attitude.

3: The child in question is actually learning to his full potential and not loafing off. Rav Moshe famously said “Before learning in Kollel, first you have to learn like a Ba’al Habos!”.

4: (maybe the most critical) The support is for a finite period, so that the parent can retire and/or help other children for their first few years.

5: When the boy won’t go out with your daughter unless he is supported for x years, expect resentment.

Personally, I think being supported until the first child (or even longer if possible) in EY learning is a wonderful thing, and helps solidify a marriage (away from parents & with fewer worries), but it has to be done right.

And most critical: Perhaps the Zevulan dollars are better spent with someone other than the persons son or SIL, and both of them realize it.

So I did not misread your negativity to those who chose to remain in learning even if they do not suffer punery.

Besides, your “explanation” does NOT agree with your use of the term in your first comment.

BTW, what term do you use for those who work and are irresponsible or those who are in “University” and demand significant support from their families?

1: Penury? I suffer Punery all the time.

2: Fair enough, but that is my usage (I’ve used it many times before, and commented on it). If the mods want to edit, I would not complain.

3: Those who are not in Kollel but still don’t care about their families? Babies (probably). At least the Kollel Bochur is doing something productive by learning.

tzippi:

Thanks for pointing this out.