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What do these mean: “Ayin Shom” “Trai Ivri Nahara”
I don’t think anyone’s intention was to make it seem less chamur than it is. All they are saying is that they are working on it at their own pace with or without your help. Your unsolicited advice just makes it that much more difficult.
If the mussar came from someone they respected, they would likely take the lesson and attempt to apply it. However to someone they feel does not come with such pure motivation, they may justify themselves.
Regarding lashon hara, the Chofetz Chaim was known to have been a shmoozer. The reason people were actually willing to learn his sefer was because they knew it was a struggle he definitely understood!
For mussar coming from a woman (or man) who cannot fathom the difficulty it is for some, is a slap in the face to someone who makes the choice of the length of their skirt every minute of the day. Yes, I know you have an obligation to the Torah to protect its values regarding tzniut. But is that really what its about? Or does your rebuke come from jealousy, hate or disrespect for the other person. Pinchas obviously did have pure intentions, but if your intentions are from anything at all other than a sincere love for the mitva, you’re probably better off keeping quiet.
aries2756: “He doesn’t realize that he is still conforming to someone else’s way and not really being his own person. He is just conforming to another set of rules, not the ones he is used to.”
Everything you say is brilliant. Just this statement, based on experience, I have to disagree with. For two reasons: First, he’s partially setting the tone so it’s not that he’s conforming to them, but in a way they are conforming to him so for once he can feel in control. Second, these kids need love and acceptance and if a kid with a yarmulka knows how to ‘chill’ and give a good laugh, they won’t look at him much different than they do now. They sniff out bad intentions in a second, but when someone comes to them openly, not intending to judge, (even if neither intending to join) they will accept them as a brother.
Curiosity: That would help if it’s approval I’m after. I asked for the sources because the reason I keep the Torah is because I know following the Torah to its entirety will lead me to live the best life possible. Those feel good answers do nothing. I want to do it because I know it’s what G-d expects and not because those I encounter will like me more or less.
csr1: Why can’t we just do it? I’ve spoken to other girls who also struggle like I do. For some it was the lack of attention that bothered them, but for others, like me, it’s more psychological. I can explain the thought process if you feel you must know, but suffice it to say that it’s physically difficult for someone who struggles with it. Some women have mastered it so it’s easy for them to preach but for others it’s a very real nisayon that must be dealt with centimeter by centimeter. It’s not as simple as “If you’re not allowed to show your knees, just don’t show them.” You’re not allowed to talk lashon hara, but is it so easy to “just not say it”?
The biggest thing in Judaism is to be shomer the bris, it’s what elevates us from every other people. It has to be this difficult because it’s so important! The same way women will never understand the male struggle, men will never understand why women have such a hard time.
How do I find the Chazon Ish you mentioned?
Sam2: It seems more that it’s up to debate what should be covered. That there is no set in stone from the Torah…. So what is ervah? Everyone here says knees, elbows, collarbone. I learned it’s a tefach above the knee and elbow and a tefach below the collarbone.
gavra: Please tell me what it says in the third perek of Brachos. It is a huge struggle for me and it will be some motivation if I know exactly what it says.
I really want to keep all the halachot to the fullest letter of the law! It is made so much more difficult when we know the Torah says one thing, but in this regard, the entire halacha is based on hearsay. I want to know what the Torah expects.
ohr chodosh: I went to Bais Yaakov and have asked countless times, whether publicly or privately, if anyone knows the actual source, but I’ve never seen or heard it quoted from a source. Everyone believes it’s in the Shulchan Aruch and I believe it too since everyone else does, but if you want us to keep it, what is the actual wording?
ohr chodosh: “You could claim the same thing about a Yid who eats cheeseburgers in McDonalds every day for lunch.”
Exactly my point. Just because you feel you have an obligation to say something doesn’t mean you will be helpful if you do.
“If any public movement causes the hemline to rise above the knee, it is a violation of the Torah’s standards.”
Source?
ohr chodosh: One is obligated to give mussar when they feel the person will listen. Additionally if one does give mussar, it needs to come from a place of love for the mitzva and for their fellow Jew, not from a place of contempt or disgust of the other person.
You should not give mussar in a circumstance where you risk pushing the other person further, which unfortunately is frequently the case when it comes to tzniut.
choppy: Source please?
The Hunter: However big of a nisayon it is not to look, for some of us it’s at least as intense a nisayon to not dress that way. Depending on the female, it’s sometimes harder for us.
WIY: “A girl who is not covering her knees very likely watches movies and reads magazines”
Sweetheart, it’s two different struggles. Maybe that’s true for some, but there are many girls who feel they have better things to do with their time then watch movies and read magazines because they are obsessed with chessed, they just have a very difficult time conforming to your view of halachic tzniut. On the flipside, there are also many girls who watch movies and do dress tzanua. So they are clearly unrelated.
Everyone: It’s very easy to have nailed a mitzva and then brand everyone who has not yet conquered the mitzva as a ‘goy’. Everyone has an obligation to elevate themselves so this world is a better place (I speak for myself as well), but work on yourselves before you start dictating to others your interpretation of G-d’s word. Or find the source (from a sefer, not some loosely translated English novel) before you begin to preach.
Talk to their Rav. Maybe some thing you’ve convinced yourself are halacha are actually mishugasin or chumrot, and you may be placated by what the rav says. Or maybe he didn’t recognize his people were struggling and he follow your advice by inspiring his people in his next Shabbat shiur.
Either way, it’s possible the way you talk so hatefully of other Jews is probably a bigger blow to G-d then how these women are dressing. Or not but it’s not only everyone else who has what to work on.
I’m not sure it’s true they can’t be monitered. I know people with iphones who have restrictions on their internet. I never tried to block websites on my ipad but I’m sure it’s possible. Whether you should be mashgiach on him is not the question. If it’s a matter of trust or of doing things without his consent, you have bigger problems.
I find it a lot more concerning that you can’t get it worked out between you guys and instead you’re venting about your beloved husband to the CR expecting strangers to come to your aid.
mom12: Do you try to make Judaism appealing instead of just a list of restrictions? If he thought it made sense he’d most probably keep it…
From what you say, it doesn’t seem that your husband gets that your son is not 8 anymore. He no longer can be controlled with threats. Teenagers need to feel that they are being treated with respect. Even if you disagree with most/all of what he is doing and even if his actions are that of a child, if he feels you trust him to make decisions as an adult he will be more willing to make more mature decisions. He is in a lot of pain and his friends give him acceptance where your husband attempts to oust him.
Teenagers hate authority so as long as you fight with him to come back earlier, he will come back late. If you’d leave food out for him or something, he may be more motivated to come back earlier. He is allergic to control but he is not allergic to reason.
I remember one thing that actually put me on the same team as my parents. That’s not to say I changed myself but it got me to not be as showy in front of my siblings. I must have been 18 when my yeshivish, uber frum dad discovered some guy from Anytown, USA was sending me illicit substances. My dad pulled me over and told me (I cleaned the language, I hope), “we both know why it is this guy is willing to give this to you for free. We both know he ultimately plans to make you vulnerable so he can physically take advantage. When he does that, it will kill me because you’re cutting yourself off from the Torah world. But, if he continues sending you these substances, I will find out who he is and I will fly down to his city and I will break his legs because he is ruining your entire future as a human being.” I no longer felt like my parents only loved me if I represented their lifestyle to their friends. Hearing that made me recognize that many of their suffocating restrictions were actually there for my personal benefit rather than their own and, as much as I still hated my life and had no desire to be observant, at least I didn’t feel I had to stuff it in everyone’s face. Once I saw that they were willing to discuss reason, I was willing to discuss reason, and communication began to open. Because they never did put restrictions on me I was more open to little restrictions they placed on the home. No, I did not become religious at that time, but I did decide that they were not such terrible people.
147: You are right. Something about the word ‘settle’ puts me off. It’s more about being realistic with what really counts but you say truth!
dorafelder: “The ones who get married are the ones who REALLY want to be married.”
NOT true! I was not looking to get married. I was hoping to push off dating for at least a few months, but with incessant bugging from my bubby, I finally went out with the one guy in the world who is perfect for me. I did not believe in bashert and I love hanging with my girl friends so I would have been content staying single, had I not met him.
A person gets married when G-d wants them to get married and wanting it more or less will not make it happen sooner.
snjn: Women tend to blame themselves when others make mistakes, that they think somehow it’s their fault. Men, on the other hand, tend to see it more from a logical perspective (sometimes with less tolerance than the woman).
The ultimate decision a man or wife would have to make, would be same (if all else were equal). Only his approach would have to be different.
She needs to know that although it’s extremely unpleasant, he’s not the first one in the world to fall prey to the taavah. Even if she may not be able to fully understand the taavah, she needs to know that it is a real and tremendously difficult nisayon. She also needs to know that he did not did not get involved because he does not love her nor because of anything to do with her. She should not judge herself thinking, ‘if only I had xyz, he wouldn’t have felt the need to…’. This is his nisayon, and being that she is his partner in kedusha, she needs to stand behind him by doing whatever she can to help him realize his potential and how wonderful he is, because he can overcome this. When she does talk to him she needs to go to him with encouragement and love, and absolutely not with accusation and disrespect.
But she should not talk to a Rav unless she has spoken first to a professional. Very little will make him feel as worthless as knowing that someone else has discussed his biggest struggles (especially something so private) with someone he respects.
Ha….ha…..funny!
Has it ever happened though? Does anyone know any success stories (not legends) of a person who dated two at once and married one of the two?
Is it really hishtadlus? Does anyone know anyone who ever dated multiple dates at the same time and actually married either one?
Just one more point. From what I’ve seen of kids from different communities who become non-observant: more frequently than not, the Chareidim who leave, do so with an intense hatred for the lifestyle they grew up with, something you don’t see much with those who leave Modern Orthodoxy.
Choppy:
They are furthermore accepting students from different backgrounds to begin with. Most Beis Yaakovs will not accept a student if a family member wears pants or a married mother/sister does not cover her hair.
The reason they (the BY OTDs) frequently come back is not because they felt a connection to what their school offered them. It’s oftentimes because someone else from the community (in my case Modern Orthodox Rabbis and women) reached out or because they realized there are other drachot than that of Beis Yaakov. Or, most commonly once a person has settled down they will return back to what is most comfortable and familiar, and back to a similar lifestyle to which they were raised; it’s just easier to fit in that way.
Additionally, having gone through the Beis Yaakov system and having left the path to find my derech, many Beis Yaakov girls have seen me as a safe person to talk to. There are more girls not keeping Shabbat and kosher than you might like to think. And many of them look more observant than the ones who are keeping everything properly. There are also large numbers of Chareidim who are playing the part but internally feel no connection, much more so than by the Modern Orthodox.
This was not to generalize nor to suggest that there are huge numbers in any of the categories mentioned, however, it’s not ‘very very few’ from the Chareidi community, nor are they necessarily doing ‘more right’.
When people are happy they don’t look for distractions. If he’s learning from the older one, chances are it’s probably the same reason. Talk to each of them, find out what’s bothering them.
They generally start at an age when they think they are invincible and that they can escape all harm, which is the mindset of most teenagers. They also don’t realize how insanely difficult it will be to stop because they all think they will be the one to beat the odds and prove that are better because they will be able to quit without a problem.
Then they enter their twenties and they realize that life is real and they actually want to stop. The reality is that anyone can quit but the withdrawel is so intense, it’s almost not worth it.
You’re not giving yourself a chance for either one if you date more than one at a time.
infallible: no one if forced to go a second time. If you’re so negative about going out again, don’t. Making the picture a prerequisite to dating is pathetic.
Pink has become a feminine thing even if it wasn’t always. Many girls are bothered by men who wear pink.
And the cologne thing: Unless you’re doing it for yourself, don’t wear unless you’re in a relationship. It almost seems trying too hard otherwise…
If a guy is militantly anti white, he’s not wearing it for self expression. He’s wearing for rebellion and that would bother me. By the time someone feels ready for marriage, they should be confident in themself that their clothes choice is actually a matter of self expression and not a rebellion against societal opinion.
It’s generally not the same girls wearing the four inch heels and the UGGS.
About the asking for beauty references: A girl who knows she is beautiful will be turned off. A girl who is beautiful but is unsure about her beauty will appreciate it. To a girl who knows she is not attractive, it’s a stab in the heart.
If the stress placed on white shirts is in fact so shallow and insignificant then what stops a guy who wears colored shirts from wearing exclusively white? Obviously there is some significance in the color of the shirt.
brilliant!! watch the snl on myspace. i think they agree with you.
write or wrong: im behind pcoz
what bothers you about smoking?
how do you define stupidity?
curiosity….
lesschumras:
Lying and deceit are two different concepts both based on the same principle. Lying is when an untruth is stated. Deceit is when the uncomfortable details in the story are left unmentioned.
Dating through a shadchan should be about giving each person a chance on their own merits and not on the basis of one being better than the next.
If you want to hang out with the other gender, go right ahead. Just don’t give them the impression you’re giving them your full mind when you know all you’re doing is comparing.
Brony: “UGGS look horrendous”
It’s comfort before style. Just this past Shabbos my friends and I were reminiscing about our UGGS. I personally wait all summer and spring to wear mine. It’s been too hot I miss them!! They’re like walking on the clouds!!!
“ok it doesn’t seem like the right thing to do, but how is it deceit? shidduch dating is not about creating an emotional bond…”
Everyone automatically assumes that the other is only dating one at a time. Unless you make it clear that you’re dating someone else, it’s deceitful.
“in a STYLIN’ vehicle (think Acura TL)….?”
I’d think he was unhappy with his own being that he feels he needs a cool car to prove his self worth.
It’s geneivat daat and a really dumb idea. Trust takes a lifetime to build and can be lost in an instant. All you do is make it harder for yourself, that even if one has potential over the other, the relationship will be founded on deceit. Just don’t do it.
“Which of the names of spices in Ketores “recipe” means cannabis?”
Kaneh Basom
“Is weed bad for yidishkeit?”
Depends how you use it.
“Do u know someone that uses it?”
Everyone knows many people who do it. You know them too.
“Is ther a point when the person has to much/overdose?”
It’s not like alcohol where the body gets poisoned. There’s a point when a person does it too often but it is not possible to actually overdose. There is a level of a high that cannot be surpassed, no matter how much marijuana is consumed. So no you can’t overdose.
“So basically what do u think/do about it?”
It takes you away from this world. If you’re happy, don’t try it.
It’s not dangerous, just stupid. If you have a brain and you care, you hopefully have better things to do with your life. There are health benefits though which you can ask your doctor about.
“The waste was a reference to the lack of tznius. Perhaps a better term could be used. The waste of time is secondary. Maybe I even retract that part. The main concern is tznius”
It’s both. It’s definitely a lack of tznius to date for too long. But it’s also a waste of emotions because if it goes on that long someone’s feeling something.
Popa: “Kids go off the derech because their parents are messed up.”
Do you honestly believe that?
2 things need to happen:
When it gets to the point that:
1) You realize that there is no reason to reject the person you have to accept them.
2) You determine that this person will truly be able to help you become the best possible you. Because that kind of respect lasts forever.
mom12: “my son is also in the alcohol mishigaas he admits that it makes him feel ‘better’ he doesnt ‘have’ all those issues for the hour or so.”
An addiction begins when a person realizes that something external can make him feel better. Even if he’s not actually getting drunk, he is setting on a dangerous path toward substance reliance. Also, alcohol is physically addictive while marijuana is not.
“He started asking questions about marijuana.. he is just ‘curious’..I’m NERVOUS. I told him it would really upset me if he started smokng. who knows if he will listen to me.”
You should do some research on these subjects instead of just relying on hearsay. You cannot preach about the unknown. Marijuana is not what you need be afraid of but it’s what they call a gateway drug; that once a person does marijuana they are more open to trying other, more harmful, substances. And a lot more teenagers do smoke marijuana than you think…
You say he is curious. The fear is that it frequently does not stop at marijuana. I’m going to bet that he does not know nor care about the dangers of marijuana. If it really is curiosity, what’s to say he won’t try others because of the same curiosity.
I stress again: DO RESEARCH! The drug speech worked for me, but only because my ‘greasy’, yeshivish dad was able to speak my language and came to me with actual facts and logic. I strongly suggest you do a lot of reading up and talking to professionals and only afterward you have something concrete to say, should you have a heart to heart with him. At least if he’s going to make dumb choices, he should know what he’s setting himself up for.
“I don’t understand such ignorance masquerading as tznius or whatever.”
Absolutely nothing to do with Tzniut. I had a bad experience with a male ob/gyno. Traumatizing actually. I am absolutely sure that he’s the exception and I know that I should not generalize based on my experience, but it has made me skeptical of all men in that feild.
Health:
“Now why did you say this? Do you mean Frum men should Not be OB’s?
Or do you mean all Ob/gyn’s should be female?…..The top Ob/gyn’s that I’ve come across were all male.”
It’s nice to hear that a man approves of male Ob/gynos. I will not state my opinion on what I think of men who choose to go into the field. Suffice it to say that as a woman, I respectfully disagree.
popa: It’s funny you know men. But who’s using the CR as a shidduch database…?
“G-d made us care, because it is something we can use to further our avodas Hashem; and like everything else, can also be used for the opposite. That is how I understand it. “
You got it exactly right! We don’t have nevuah so the closest we have to knowing G-d’s will is from others. Caring what others think is extremely useful, even crucial, when it helps with one’s avodas Hashem. But you approach dangerous territory when you care too much about external opinion; it almost seems as if you’re serving other people.
Things like money, status and materialism are useful to help one achieve his mission. A person should feel good about himself but not to the point that he cares more about his friend’s opinion than of G-d’s.
Ask your kids what they do to stay positive in school.
They’re also stuck in a situation that is not their choice and they also must learn to make the best of it.
“And if you don’t mind, I’ll flip the question. Aren’t a lot of the things women want in a spouse so that their friends will see what a chashuv catch they got? Don’t you want your friends to think what a talmid chochom you got? Or what a rich doctor you got? (Depending on your circle of friends.)”
I’m not going to generalize for others but I honestly work on myself to only care what G-d thinks. Not that I am on that level yet, but I do have a very strong sense of self, enough that what I am looking for in a marriage partner is only someone I am compatible with and who sees the same future that I do.
It makes no difference to me if others approve or disapprove. Approval is nice but holds no weight in my decision.
Money is a convenience, a talmid chacham is necessary exclusively so that I can respect him. Each is a nice attribute but once I am married and we are no longer on display, nothing will matter except if he has the tools and desire to build in the same direction I do.
I am sure I am not alone.
A woman needs to be able to respect her husband just as he needs to believe that his wife is beautiful.
The question is if he is looking for looks to impress his friends or because he needs to feel attraction….
“Most questions in shidduhim that have to do with size that have been asked of me have always revolved around the size of the girls fathers bank account”
Which is similarly wacky.
He’ll come around. Just keep reminding yourself. It’s the ones who have the biggest life struggles who become the greatest.
I was there, my friends were there. We all came around. Just keep showing him that Torah is worth living and that the keepers of Torah are a noble people to be part of.
It’s hard to see now but things will work out.