Forum Replies Created
truthsharer: What is the mekor for that?
The Halachah is that you are nowadays ALLOWED to live off Tzedakah to learn (see the Rama and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah 246:21). And the Rama 246:6 rules that the custom is that Torah scholars do benefit from their learning, by support from the community. And he even brings other opinions that the community should support its Torah scholars even to the point of affluence.
Additionally, taking money for learning in Kollel is NOT living of Tzedakah. Since I, the recipient, must provide something in return for payment received, that is a simple business deal. If I do NOT have to provide anything in return for payment received, that is Tzedakah. Since Kollel people must learn Torah in return for the payments they receive, they are NOT living at all off Tzedakah. Not any more than any person who renders services for payment received.
truthsharer: I provided the enumerated census count, that the U.S. Census is constitutionally obligated to do. The estimated number is a separate count.
The Rambam clearly writes that EVERY Jew has a right to spend his life dedicated to full-time learning. Thus it would seem the Rambam falls into the “es kumpt mir” category you coined for this endeavor.
Maran Hagoen Rav Elazar Shach told American educators that Yeshiva boys should be taught Chumash in Yiddish, even if the boys speak English amongst themselves. He furtermore said that both boys and girls should learn to be comfortable in Yiddish. He also said that Yiddish is spoken by “all jews” (that is his phrase). He referred parents to send their children to Yiddish teaching yeshivos. And there is good reason why Rebbes and Rabbonim give ma’amarim in Yiddish.
Modern Hebrew is not different than Turkish or Farsi – it is the language of a secular culture complete with all those things that we want to stay away from. The fact that some of those who speak Modern Hebrew are religious Jews is not different than the language of any country Jews are in where they speak the language of the land. The point is to stay away from the language of the land and only talk the language of the Jew.
The Radak (Sefer HaMichlol, introduction) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is all but forgotten to us, and all we have left is what is in Tanach.
The Chasam Sofer notes that while Chazal used many words and phrases borrowed from the Greeks and Romans, they never coined a new word, as has been done in modern hebrew, for in their holy opinion it was preferable to use other languages rather than create even a single new word that did not have its like, its example, in the Torah, since it could not be rooted in sanctity.
The Chasam Sofer EH 2:11 says that in ancient times Jews used to use a modified version of the non-Jewish languages for everyday (divrei chol) talk, similar to what Yiddish is.
The Rambam writes that even in the days of Ezra they had a translator to explain the Torah readings to the people – clearly, they did not speak Loshon Hakodesh, even before the Churban.
The Chasam Sofer writes that the reason Jews do not speak Loshon Hakodesh as a speaking language is because it is inappropriate to use a holy language while enveloped in Tumah, which is our current status. The Rambam writes that a love song in Hebrew is more repulsive to Hashem than the same song in Arabic, for instance, because the pollution of the Holy language is an additional crime. If someone wants to store pornography in his house, thats bad enough. But to store it in the Aron HaKodesh is unspeakably worse. So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets. For our Creator to look down at the world and see His holy language – or even elements of it – used in magazines such as are sold in Kiosks on Yaffo or Dizengoff Street, or spoken by the lowest of the low trying to make a sale, is not something that he or we are happy about.
The Kuzari writes that Avrohom Avinu, therefore, spoke 2 different languages. One for holy speech – that was Loshon HaKodesh, and the other for mundane speech – that, the Kuzari says was some non-Jewish language that Avrohom Avinu took and changed around a little on his own. And thats the idea behind Yiddish. It is a non-Jewish language that we took and twisted a bit in order to make it exclusive among us.
Even though there are Yiddishistin who speak Yiddish, they took it from us, not vice-versa (as is the case of Modern Hebrew), and since we do not live in a country or society dominated by Yiddish-speaking shkotzim, there is no benefit of Lo shinu es leshonam by not speaking Yiddish. But there is such a benefit by not speaking Hebrew.
Other reasons why MH is not the “language of the Jew” are:
(a) Its origin is actually anti-Jewish. The creators of MH did so because “it is not possible to be a nation without a national language” (see Eisentein’s encyclopedia, ‘Ivrit’). This of course is Apikorsus, because Jews are a nation not like other nations – whereas other nations need a common spoken language, we only need the Torah to make us a “nation”. We are no more or less an “am” if we have or do not have a common language, common food, or common geographic boundaries. The idea was that MH will make us into a “nation like all nations”, in the same way that some fool may say that all Jews should eat bagels and lox because without doing so, we will be less of an “am”. And even though those who speka MH in Bnei Brak today do not subscirbe to this heresy, we do not consider this language the “Jewish language” because it was created to actually change the definition of what “Jewish” means. In The golyon Maharsha, quoted by Rav Reuven Grozovsky in “Bayos HaZeman”, there is brought a responsa of Rav Yaakov Sasportes, a great combatant in the fight against the Shabse Tzvi y”s. He says that Shabse Tzvi actually intorduced some positive, even obligatory practices into Judaism. Performing Birkas Kohanim daily, even in Chutz La’aretz, was foremost among them. But, says the Ohel Yaakov, even though this is a good and positive practice, and perhaps even obligatory according to Halachha, since its origins came through Shabse Tzvi, we should not do it. The same applies, all the more to making MH our “national language.”
(b) The changes in Loshon HaKodesh that were made, both in accent and content, are unacceptable. The changing of accents from Ashkenaz to Sefard for Ashkenaz Jews is wrong. Rabbeinu Bachye writes that if you change even a komatz to a Pasach in the language, it will lead to heresy. Also, certain words in Hebrew are definitely against the spirit of the Torah. (Ben Yehuda once said that he designed the language specifically to “shtoch” the religious). Example: “Chashmal”, which means electricity in MH, comes from the Loshon HaKodesh word found at the beginning of Yechizkel which is the name of the Angel of Fire. The idea of taking the name of the Malach of AIsh and using it to mean “electricity” was the implication that whereas in the olden days we believed in angels as explanations for things, today we believe in technology. It would be the same as calling penicillin, for instance, “Rephoel.” The Debreciner Rav ZT’L actually discusses if it is permitted to use this word.
MH does have its roots in Loshon HaKodesh, but its adjustments of it make it the worst of both worlds – since it has Loshon HaKodesh elements we dont want to use it for our mundane purposes – and since it has non-Loshon HaKodesh elements, we do not want to accept it as our national language. So to speak MH is one thing, but to say it is the “language of the Jew” is just not so. Neither is Yiddish the “language of the Jew”, any more than a black hat is the “clothing of a Jew.” But just as the purpose of the hat is “lo shinu es malbushayhen” – we want to dress differently than the seculars – thep purpose of Yiddish is “lo shinu es shemom” – we want to talk differently than the seculars.
There is no Mitzvah to speak in Loshon HaKodesh. Without the modernizations, its not much of a speakable language (we don’t have that many words). And if you do add in a bunch of words and tweak it, youll just end up with another Yiddish, but based on Loshon HaKodesh, which is only a bad thing, not good, as per above. Plus, the Responsa Chavtzeles HaSharon (I:OH:10) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is only Kodesh if its used exclusively for holy things. Once you start using it to speak mundane things, its not holy anymore. It’s like an Aron HaKodesh – once you use it to hold your model racing car collection and not Sifrei Torah, its not an Aron HaKodesh anymore.
In the Sefer B’Tuv Yerushalayim it relates that the Maharil Diskin refused to speak to a certain Talmid Chacham of Yerushalayim because he used to spek only Loshon HaKodesh. Said the Maharil Diskin, “For generations we are accostomed to speaking Yiddish, not Loshon HaKodesh.” He saw in the speaking of Loshon HaKodesh a contradiction to historical percedent, which originated based on the ideas in the aforementioned issues. The Chasam Sofer is in his comments on Shulchan Aruch, OH #65 – the reason we do not speak Loshon HaKodesh is to prevent undesirable people from speaking it, plus to prevent its being used in Tameh places. The posek Hagaon Rav Akiva Yosef Shlezinger in his Sefer Lev HaIvri says we should not change our spoken toungue from Yiddish, and he draws parallels with our usage of Yiddish in modern times, to our usage of Aramaic in ancient times.
What about giving a Shiur or Dvar Torah in Loshon Kodesh? The reason that was not done is because Loshon HaKodesh is very hard to use in a speaking manner – its much more suited to writing. Would you start a sentence with “hinei”? And even when Divrei Torah are writen in Seforim, they add in many Aramaic words and expression, to the point where someone who only know Hebrew but not Gemora language would have a hard time understanding it. There simply aren’t enough words or expressions in Loshon HaKodesh to do that. Its awkward even when it can be done. So since theres really no reason to do it – there is no Mitzvah to speak Loshon HaKodesh – but there is a Mitzvah to understand your learning as best as you can, it was deemed by Klal Yisroel better to use foregn language – or at least a combination of Loshon HaKodesh and foreign language, which is really what is needed to get a complex Torah idea across.
Remember – the Gemora itself was done in Aramaic – a foreign language, and not Loshon HaKodesh. And thats because it was more easily understood. Foreign languages still are. And the point of the Chavtzeles HaSharon by saying that Loshon HaKodesh loses its holiness when spoken for mundane matters was that doing so is a Bizayon for the Holy language and it therefore should not be done. Historical precendent is valid only when the past generations could have done somethign but clearly chose not to. Speaking Loshon HaKodesh was an available option for them just as it is for us – and they could have created a “speaking language” out of it if they wanted – just like they did recently. The fact that they didnt shows that they chose not to. We should, too. But Loshon HaKodesh – with the Aramaic and foreign words mixed in, which is what is used for Torah – is not really speakable. But it woks best from the written Torah word. Its not a coincidence that after thousands of years, those who finally came up with the idea to speak Hebrew were atheist Apikorsim who did it specifically for heretical reasons – because in order to be a “nation” you need a language.October 19, 2009 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm in reply to: #991254
noitalmr: Yasher Koach and welcome back!
Ben Yehuda was a Torah hating, religious hating demagogue.
You are hereby appointed as the official English linguist of the CR. It is your mortal duty to issue brownie points to all those deserving.
<Great Seal of the CR affixed on the 19th Day of October, 2009>
In the CR, we work our way down not up.
cantoresq, men darf mekarev zein der sphardishe chevre tzu unzer heilige shprach.
Why are you considering inviting your mother but not father as opposed to vice versa?
Jothar, First you implied that this is only Rav Ahron Kotler ZT’L’s shitta. And now you claim it is an “es kumt mir” shitta. I am saying both implications are incorrect.
Maybe the non Bnei Torah can become Bnei Torah. 🙂
Sharpest thread in the CR, no?
ICOT: You previously wrote: “I disagree with that definition, as does the law.”
So I stated that laws can be changed, and I suggested that it should be changed.
And what is the lesson now?
That is why I suggest the law be changed. And contributions outlawed as bribery.
The most corrupt form of bribery is money.
George Washington was not a Federalist (although his positions were reflected by the Federalists.)
(2017, so its after he becomes old enough to vote.)
That’s why I keep telling you NOT to get a secular education.
At least you would still have your hair.
Did someone just ring a higher authority?
I’d write in a vote for Jax.
If someone asked to call them on Shabbos and telling them sorry I can’t do that would embarrass them for asking, should one be mechalel shabbos to prevent their embarrassment? Or if someone offered non-kosher food and refusing would embarrass them, would one eat treif?
haifa: She got more schaar upstairs then she could have ever earned downstairs.
theShtayger: Seek counsel from your Rov. Your concern is well justified.
NY Mom: Are you suggesting therefore it is okay to allow bribery? If that isn’t what you are suggesting, what was your point about that?
I entirely agree this system is better than any other goyishe model out there. But that isn’t saying much. And shouldn’t we improve the model?
Reason 4 is bribery. This is the most powerful reason of campaign contributions. It should not be allowed, whether open or closed? Should we allow bribery so long as it is open?
This would abolish all political parties
Not too bad an idea. Sounds like something George Washington would have liked.
Better the rich than the bribed. I think Yisro’s idea IS applicable here.
theShtayger brought up a valuable discussion. The sarcasm towards him was unwarranted.
If theShtayger feels that the YW Coffee Room is an inappropriate site because the anonymous posting of opinions (sometimes labeled as facts) are coming from both men and women, then I cordially invite him and anyone else who feels that way (yes, even you Joseph, if you so feel that way) to stop reading and posting in the CR. There you go, no sarcasm – just a simple statement.
Bribery is a greater evil. Campaign “contributions” determine legislation. It is bribery plain and simple.
I agree that by itself outlawing campaign contributions would help rich candidates. Nevertheless the evil of campaign contributions, IMHO, is far greater than any other “legal” campaign issue.
I would in addition to outlawing campaign contributions, provide each candidate free broadcast time. The Federal government “owns” the airwaves, and can require than say 2% of all airtime belongs to the government for its own use, as part of the broadcasting license to all broadcasters – who BTW do not pay for their license – neither at the outset nor ongoing fees. Then the gov’t could give its airtime to political candidates.
I don’t see how “campaign contributions” differ from bribery. The “donors”, especially corporations or unions, have ulterior not altruistic motives when donating. IOW, I think ALL so-called contributions to campaigns should be outlawed as bribery.
ICOT: How do you believe we can constitutionally remove the unfair advantage the rich have?
anon: It is from the Mussar Seforim.
The nimshol is there’s nothing wrong with going to work, but to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it’s still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos — how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things?? But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we’re on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let’s at least realize that.
IOW it isn’t the person who is insane, but rather the fact that is is unfortunately necessary to spend so much time on work rather than Torah that is nuts. The biggest negative effect is the amount of time it takes one away from the real things in life (Torah.) At least recognize this fact, even if you cannot help it.
Bemused, without disagreeing with you, cannot some of what you describe be the nature of negotiating?
Like I said, I would quite wary of a “professional” in this field.
oomis: Let me guess. That cruel so-called “shadchan” was a professional one?
Brooklyn has a population, according to the U.S. Census, of over 2.5 Million. It is widely acknowledged the census severely undercounts the population in high illegal immigrant areas such as Brooklyn. Feif also stated “Now, it doesn’t have to at any given time – it has to occur only once a year. R’ Moshe said that even if the population is slightly below 3 million, it’s still a reshus harabim”
BTW, when dealing with “professional shadchanim” one ought to be careful as some of them will push and/or pressure one on shiduchim that are otherwise inappriapriate. I always believed using friends/family/Rebbeim/etc. was the best route.
zman7777: You may have overlooked it, but I did quote the following from the Kovetz Shiurim II:47 which answers your question:
“If the studies do not cause you to learn Apikursus or to befriend Goyim, and you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah.”
abx – If it doesn’t show up.
“Sitting and learning all day is the ideal.”
Jothar: There is a world of difference between an “ideal” and something being impermissible. Nowhere did anyone say it is impermissible.
“anyone who works for a parnassah, even in a frum workplace, is insane.”
anon: Please do not continue to mischaracterize my stated position.
Dr. Pepper – Thanks for sharing. I take from your experience, that the younger the girl (generally) the more pure the intentions. (And thus better to marry as soon as possible.)
Dr. Pepper – Can you elucidate why you believe chasanim choose younger spouses?
squeak: There are too many. 🙂
You cant legislate… middos.
Don’t the Seforim Hakedoshim do exactly that?
squeak, are you a snob?
ames – That isn’t how you compared baking to designer clothing a few posts back.