MadeAliyah

>MadeAliyah – I understood exactly what you are saying. And I am pointing out your lack of appreciation. Whole world has 10-20% of the country vaccinated, where Israel is alsmot fully vaccinated. No, you are inconvenienced by lockdowns.<

I, among many others, lost a job thanks to his terrible policies. So please excuse my lack of overwhelming gratitude for this ‘helicopter prime minister’.

>“I don’t think the Torah’s economic system is compatible to ours.”
Correct. It requires a much more generous welfare state. And certain things we take for granted today like interest on loans, limited liability corporations. securitization of debt, bankruptcy, the cancellation of debts at death, caveat emptor on purchases (except for real estate), and freehold land tenure do not exist in the Torah’s system.<

That’s not what I meant.
The Torah economy relies on the land being a permanent property that cannot be fully sold.
Modern states cannot use that model for obvious reasons.

>Maybe it is good that Bernie Sanders is an unlearned Jew. Could you imagine what he would be like if he discovered that the Torah does not permit corporations at all?<

🤣🤣

>It is already significant. Where is Mashiach?<

It is? Did I miss the end of the world? I always miss those important things! Maybe next time…

>He endorsed a neo-Nazi, Paul Nehlen, in a congressional primary. That even a single Jew could support Trump after that shows that Trump Jews have interests other than those of the Jewish people as primary.<

Biden restarted funding for the PA that funds the families of terrorist who killed jews. That even a single Jew could support Biden after that shows that Biden Jews have interests other than those of the Jewish people and the jewish state as primary.
(I don’t believe the above comment, but you should)

>Trump said that “very fine people” marched with Nazis in Charlottesville.<

There were normal people who opposed the removing of a statue in their town.
Should the fact that Neo-Nazi’s opposed it too make them not oppose it? I don’t understand why.

>Unequivocably condemning Nazis should be the easist political position to take<

Should he have said something like “the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists. They should be condemned totally.”?

>Note that both David Duke and Louis Farrakhan had supported Trump in 2016. Three hatemongers — all birds of a feather.<

Do you agree with every Biden supporter? Do you think he is comparable to them?

Look @charliehall, I know you fear the Alt-right, we all do.
But most sane people fear the extreme left more and for a good reason:
The left is stronger and is growing with alarming speed.

>ENS i dont even know where to start in my response to you.<

It is my firm belief that ENS is actually a Republican troll trying to make Democrats look stupid.

I think it’s unnecessary ENS, the Dems have proven that they are quite capable of doing it on their own.

>MadeAliya, I am the center. Everyone on the right of me is a Nazi, everyone on the left of me – a Commie. Try using this attitude, it really works!<

Interesting idea, but I personally prefer to be open about my bias. I don’t think that’s a bad thing

>Seriously speaking, there are multiple dimensions in politics – economic, social, international. For example, Israeli haredi parties are on the right are on the right socially, but on the left economically.<

That is so true.
Also, the Israeli right-wing parties are conservative but not libertarian.
(There was a libertarian party that ran about a year ago but they failed to pass the threshold)

Back to the OP, here are my comments:

>The white nationalist are encouraged in their anti-semitism by Trump not clearly condemning their behavior,<

Trump could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue, shoot a Nazi and still not lose any haters.

> inciting their insurrection on the Capitol and has nothing to do with his grandchildren and Israel.<

The insurrection on the Capitol and had nothing to do with white nationalism.

“Israel Seems To Have Avoided Post-Purim Virus Spike”

>The rich use more government infrastructure, so they need to pay more taxes.<

They also create more jobs and boost the economy.

@charliehall

Again we see the incredible arrogance of the Biden haters in spewing easily debunked motzi shem ra. They think nobody will catch their lies.

Trump haters spew easily debunked ‘motzi shem ra’ too. I very often don’t even need to Google it.

So please don’t pretend it’s only the ‘Trumpies’ who spread misinformation.

>He has not spent one day on the golf course.<

Nope, as the adult in the room, he prefers to play Luigi at Camp David.

Do you believe what epidemiologists have been saying that if 90% of people would wear masks when around others, we could have prevented most COVID deaths?

And most flu deaths.
Unless I am mistaken, masking stopped the flu almost entirely.

Why are you so against wearing a mask?

Against? Not at all!
I am pro-choice; you want to wear a mask? Wear one. Don’t want to? Your choice.
You have said that “there is a cheshbon to be made as to what an individual’s responsibility is in saving lives”. I don’t need you to make that cheshbon for me.

Now that we agree, can we wrap up this thread?

@MadeAliya The problem is that זכות doesn’t mean “right”, it best translates to “privilege”. The difference between the two is that a “right” is something that everyone can do and it cannot be taken away, barring extreme circumstances. A זכות is something that you are awarded. So what you’re saying is that we can only earn the זכות of walking around without face masks and social distancing.

You obviously don’t speak Ivrit.
(Not judging, you might live in Ramat Beit Shemesh.)

@madealiyah You made aliyah, so (unless you live in Ramat Beit Shemesh) you probably speak some Hebrew yes? Please say the statement “It is my right to not wear a mask” in Ivrit.

Read with a deep Israeli voice:
לא בא לי לשים מסכה, יש לך בעיה? מעניין את סבתא שלי !!!!!!
I’ll edit the rest so the mods don’t have to.

It is important to act in a way that will save people’s lives. It’s less important to always be careful on the off chance that one person in a thousand can be saved. Wearing masks saves many many lives. That is fact that you have yet to dispute other than baseless claims of breathing restrictions and comments about how an individual’s comfort takes precedence over someone else’s health.

Okay, but you care less about those who died of Influenza than those who died of Covid.
That’s why you didn’t care about masks until now.

(Why am I still responding to this thread? Is the lack of Oxygen getting to me?)

Never in the past 40 years would I have thought I would see a Democratic Congress vote to spend $2.75 billion on aid to non-public schools, and to have every single Republican vote against it. It has been almost a half century since there has been significant Democratic support for aid to non-public schools in large number.

Wow, that is some a way of looking at reality.
So if a bill were to be passed that gives one million towards a border wall and two billion to funding abortions you would be surprised when ‘Trumpies’ vote against it.
Interesting.

@madealiyah Why are you looking at this as a binary outcome? That either we never wear masks or we always do?

For the upteenth time:

Before Covid we had a right (or no chiyuv) to keep our faces and glasses clear.
Then Covid came and some people have decided that we don’t have said right.
Why? Because if people are dying, logic dictates that our rights can be overridden.
‘Really?’ we asked, ‘at what point does this phenomenon called death, that has been part of our lives since Adam ate from the Tree, infringe upon our rights?’.
‘You seem to want me to provide you with a number that I don’t know, so fine I’ll make something up. ‘ answered @Yserbius123 helpfully, ‘When US COVID deaths go down 90% from their peak and stay that for one month we can stop wearing masks.‘
You don’t know? This stuff is just made up? Do we lose our freedom whenever it feels right to certain unnamed people, without them providing a logical baseline?‘.

There. I have maxed out my explaining skills. If this is not enough, I may just give up.

Furthermore, you keep stating that your main problem with wearing a mask is that it is uncomfortable. Like I keep repeating, that’s simply not a good enough reason. There are many things that are uncomfortable but we do anyway.

That is my problem, but not my reason.

I only continue to mention comfort, because you keep claiming that it’s not uncomfortable.
My reason is the ‘all-or-nothing’ or ‘baseline’ question, which I have repeated about four times.
But if this comfort business is confusing, then let’s drop it.
But the question still stands.

>At what point does the danger override your rights, and why then? I don’t know. But we are very very far from that point as the danger is currently extremely acute <

Bingo! The reason you don’t know at which point masks are mandatory is because there is no point.
So we’re back to square one:
Mandatory masks; always or never?

>and the so-called “rights” (a secular invention with no parallel in the Torah)<

Replace “rights” with “no chiyuv of VeNishmartem”.

>being violated are on a very small scale.<

Again, at what point is it a big scale?

>It is a matter of opinion that masks are disruptive to lives It’s a matter of fact that they aren’t.<

Disruption to our lives is a matter of opinion.
There is a reason most people are cannot wait to dispose of their masks. (Are you not one of them?)
What others said or your brilliant anti-fog techniques are irrelevant.

>Flu is forever or not I will discuss this with you when daily COVID deaths begin to approach daily flu deaths and stay that way. Until that time, there is no comparison between the two illnesses.<

Ibid.

>Normal lives can be lived even when wearing a mask. That isn’t a matter of opinion,<

Ibid.

> it’s a simple fact proven by millions on a daily basis.<

Millions of people are in jail, does that mean they are living a normal life?

>Not wearing a mask is dangerous like drunk driving is dangerous. The point of the moshol was that it’s not a “right” to drive drunk, even if being sober is difficult, because it puts others in danger<

The two are as comparable as mandatory masking and mandatory straightjackets.
By the way, we still have a right to sober driving even though we might kill.

>I started saying that on this thread to provoke a reaction and it seems to have worked. Have we not lost enough friends and family to COVID? Shouldn’t we be doing what’s possible to mitigate that? You seem to disagree. You are saying that there are things that you find uncomfortable, so you won’t do them even if it means that it can cause a massive difference in this horrific mageifa.<

We have lost, I have lost.
But the correct response is to allow our elders to stay at home comfortably until they can get vaccinated and wearing a mask if we must be in close proximity with them (In that case I am pro-mask).
We would have to do this even we all masked up, because remember, masks slow the spread but do not stop it.

>Israel is .15% whereas US is .6% four times as much.<

I’ll repeat:

The US and Israel are not comparable with regards to Covid for several reasons:

1. The Israeli government has way more power to regulate than the US Federal gov. does.

2. The US also has a lot more travel to and from China and other countries (and you only need one infected person to bring the virus into your country),

3. The US got the virus much earlier than EY,so they had less info to work with.

If you’re going to compare anyway, you might also want to criticise Biden for not vaccinating at the same speed that Israel is.

>Eliezer u prob meant .015 percent not 15% kind of a big difference.<

You probably meant 0.15 percent.

>What about 500,000 dead through Coronavirus and people starving from hunger which can be attributed to Trump?<

That is a lie.
Covid spread all over the globe.
It would have spread under any President.

@Yserbius let me attempt to present you with the logic behind anti-mandatory-masking in a more concise format.
Here is the question:

Can a person be forced to mask against his/her will in order to save lives?

If Yes:
Masks should be mandatory forever as they prevent the flu and other viruses.

If Not:
Masks should never be mandatory.

The answers you have presented so far include:

1. Covid is more dangerous than the flu.
A. At what point does the danger override your rights, and why then?

2. Masks are not disruptive to your lives.
A. That is a matter of opinion.

3. Flu is forever, Covid is not.
A1. That may not be true.
A2. The time period is irrelevant

4. Not masking is like drunk-driving.
A. Drunk-driving is an active offence. Not masking is passive and is part of living a normal life.

5. You are pro-death.
A. 😶

If you cannot give a straight answer this ‘ethical shtikel torah’ (😉 DY) then you either do not understand the question or have no answer.