MadeAliyah

Hi YWNCR, I missed a few weeks so can anyone help me catch up? Have we yet found an answer for the question posed in the OP, or did we just shrug and move on?

Okay @yserbius123 let me explain slowly and clearly.
When you asked me why speed limits are different than mandatory masking you were obviously asking why I, the pro-choice position have no problem with speed limits. How do I know that? Because why would you ask why speed limits are different than masking in the government’s eyes? They aren’t different in the government’s eyes! They support both!
So I explained to you that according to me speed limits are “Misuse of public property”. That is my position. You can argue that the reason is flawed, but to say “You are wrong about speed limits… They are to prevent deaths and injuries.”? What do you even mean? That I must accept the government’s reason? Why on earth? This is not even a fallacy, it’s plain false.

But unfortunately it’s not just once
You do this all the time.
You claim that the flu is not comparable to Covid but speed limits are.
You made claims about the flu that are outright falsehoods.
You claim that if everyone followed all the rules of the road, lowering speed limits to 10 miles per hour will not save any lives which is just not true.
You distort my words intentionally.
You use fallacies like they’re on your bucket list
You write outright lies.
You bring arguments that don’t even deserve to be called arguments.
Then you use words like “narishkeit” and “shtuch” as if yiddish settles it all.
And then you say that I am throwing a tantrum.
And then you claim that you have answered all the questions.
And then whenever I try to end this infinite conversation you once again misquote me and force to correct you so that you can continue to rave about how terrible pro-choice people are.
You have no argument.
It’s all “the experts said that we should mask and how dare you not listen”.
You still cannot explain why when or why death matters to you.
You are a devout worshiper of “The Experts” and no intelectual dialog can change your mind.
It’s impossible to argue with someone who has such a lose grip on reality and logic.

So all I can do is try not to care as you once again try to provoke me into responding by yet again by distorting my posts, then I’ll have to face the I-told-you-so’s of @syag-lchochmo and @daas-yochid. I now see how right they were when they said “Face reality sir, You. Aren’t. Listening.” and “you have illustrated your inability to have a conversation.”.
If only I would have listened to them sooner.

@n0mesorah, I just don’t except the “hamas forced us!” defence. They put their reporters under the mercy of terrorists, What did they expect?

Does anyone really believe that the AP thought that Hamas would let them be honest with their reporting?

>Agreed. I was being ridiculous.<

You’re a rare one. Not many in the CR are willing to admit when they are wrong.

>1. The AP has reporters on the ground in Gaza. After that it is conjecture. Except for the parts that are false.<

In a 2014 article in The Atlantic a former AP reporter claimed that “Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)”

So this isn’t just me, it’s reporters who worked for the AP.

But we still use the Associated with Hamas Press as a source of news.

And when somebody finally points it out, not only do we get crickets from CR members, but we also get people telling us that there is “nothing for you to get excited about” and it’s all “lukshen”.

And then we wonder why anti-semites think they can get away with violence against jews?

>>@MadeAliyah That’s a lot of words for addresses nothing about my main point. — Your main point is that masks save lives and I have addressed that too many times.

>>You keep trying to derail the topic by pretending that my concern about COVID is hypocritical because I’m not equally concerned about the flu — It is hypocritical.

>>when I’ve already made myself clear that the two are not comparable. — No you haven’t. You also seem to think that speed limits are comparable but the flu isn’t. 🧐🤨🤔

>>You keep repeating “the burden of proof is on you” over and over again like it’s some massive shtuch — Not a shtuch just reality.

>>and completely ignoring the fact that the proof is out there in what the CDC and Misrad HaBriyut have been saying. — What have they been saying?
That masks slow the spread? I didn’t disagree with you on that.
That they should govern my face? Nope, don’t agree.

>>Your main issue is that you don’t feel like the government (or my “power grab” whatever that means) — Clarification: when I say “you” I mean whoever is demanding that I mask so in this context it’s the government. (I suppose you know what a government power grab is…)

>>has a right to mandate that you wear a mask, even if it does a lot to protect people. You have yet to address what, exactly, is the issue here since the government mandates things like that all the time, such as speed limits. — True, but we all agree that there should be limits to the government’s control. Masking is one of those as evident in the flu issue and speed limits are not. Why the difference? Good question, but it’s a question for both of us, so why don’t you help me out?

>@MadeAliyah You literally addressed none of my comment. — So sorry. To compensate I’ll do a line-by-line responce

>Why are speed limits not attacking your personal liberties? — I never mentioned “personal liberties”. The problem isn’t my personal liberties, the problem is your power grab.
In regards to speed limits, as I said it’s your problem too. You should be fighting for lower speed limits, after all, you wouldn’t want anybody to die because of innconveniences, right?

>Why should masks have not be required? — Why should they be? (The burden of proof is yours)

>You just keep harping on this flu narischkeit, — It’s only “narishkeit” because you have no answer.

>pretending that it’s as dangerous and infectious as COVID — I never did. Please stop putting words into my mouth, it’s getting annoying.

>like it’s some sort of massive shtuch on the whole masking requirement. — It is.

>While you admit that masks saved lives, you still are dismissive of it and claim that it shouldn’t be required — ✔️

>because of “personal liberties”. — ✖️

>You can’t just ignore the pandemic, it actually happened and masks really worked to slow it down. — K.

>What is “default position” anyway? — I’ve explained it enough.

>Some dream where people can do whatever they want? Like drive over the speed limit? — ✖️

>So let me get this straight. You admit that masks directly saved lives, — ✔️

>perhaps even many lives. — Define “many”.

>You admit that you wore a mask when required — ✔️

>and it wasn’t that big of a deal. — ✖️

>And that far less people would have died had everyone listened to the governments when they were requiring masks. — Define “far less”.

>And yet you still think that some nonsense called your “personal liberties” takes precedence? — Again with the “personal liberties”?

>Where are your “personal liberties” when the Shiltoin HaKoifrim demands you pay taxes? — You got me there, let’s get rid of taxes too.

>Or those chauvanist Rabbis insist that women wear long sleeves in the summer? — Tznius is Halacha. Masking isn’t.

>I read through a bunch of his old posts including his first one, and I did not find that Made Aliyah ever made a specific case against wearing or legislating the need for masks.<

The argument began in https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anti-face-mask-ywncr.
The thread is five pages long.
Good luck.

Okay so I was right in the OP.

Even according the CDC the vaccinated don’t need to mask and Fauci was just making up excuses.

>@MadeAliyah With that sort of logic you can apply it to the police stopping people from speeding. What right do they have to prevent you from exercising your democratic right to drive as fast as you want?<

But with your sort of logic the speed limit should be as low as is needed to ensure that no fatal accidents happen at all.

So comparing masking to speed limits is a problem for both of us.

But only one of us has the burden of proof…

>Now, with that in mind, can you please defend your position that wearing a mask is a personal choice and if it makes you uncomfortable you can just not wear it?<

I don’t need to defend my position any more than you need to defend your position when I demand that you must eat spinach every morning for breakfast. You want me to mask against my will, you need to provide a solid reason.

The CDC and the Misrad Habriyut are overstretching their authority in ways that should frighten anyone who cares about democracy and freedom.
Your local doctor and all the doctors you’ve spoken with can provide you with the data and their advice, but do not and should not have the power to force you to do anything. If they did, you would be eating spinach every morning for breakfast.
Your Rav and your local Va’ad HaRabbonim should be listened to, by you.
(A thousand published papers is a lot indeed. If you read a thousand published papers, who am I to argue with you?)

And now @yserbius123, the burden of proof is with you. Please go ahead… 🎤

It’s not that I don’t “care” about people dying from the flu, it’s that the link between me not wearing a mask and people dying from the flu is tenuous at best (as opposed to COVID where there’s a very strong link and correlation between mask wearing and dying).

According to the CDC: a) flu can be transmitted before symptoms appear and b) masks can prevent transmission of the flu.

I would ask you once more to explain why masks should not be required for the flu in order to save even one life, but only a fool tries the same thing twice expecting different results.

I am not being unreasonable, nor taking your words out of context.

And I am a flamingo.

You have made it absolutely clear on multiple occasions that your convenience is more important than keeping other people safe in some sort of bizarre perversion of “Im ein ani li mi li?” I can sit hear quoting your comments all day, but I think this one:
@MADEALIYA: HOW CAN ANYBODY DEMAND THAT PEOPLE SHOULD WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT OTHERS?
really drives the point home.

Do you even realise what you are saying? I spent pages explaining why nobody can demand that others should wear a mask and instead of refuting my points, you decide that I shouldn’t be listened to because I said that nobody can demand that others should wear a mask. This catch-22 is your way of avoiding the question. But two can play at this game:
How about we don’t listen to you demanding that we mask because you are demanding that we mask?

@yserbius123, we can go in circles forever and we probably will if I don’t give up.
If you are interested in having a discussion, I’m all ears.
If you just want to force masks on all faces and spew some name-calling, fallacies and lies on the way, I’m out.
So far you seem to only want the latter, so thanks for your time and I wish you all the best.

@yserbius123, I would go for the usual line-by-line response but I think we are getting far to side-tracked. Let me try to sum up our discussion as I see it, so that hopefully you can tell me where I’m wrong and how to get out of this infinite loop of that’s getting us nowhere.

– In Ihttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anti-face-mask-ywncr I asked you why Covid should not be treated like the flu in regards to masking.

– In the next thirteen posts you failed to effectively answer, eventually saying that you would be ready to admit to not caring about flu deaths and that there is a cheshbon to be made in each case. (Not once did you suggest that “Wearing a mask is pointless if you’re doing the minimal needed to protect others from the flu”)

– At that point I asked you if we could wrap up the thread as we seemed to have come to an agreement. Since you did not answer, I assumed that we were done.

– But we were not done. Apparently you are still outraged that a) I had said “How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?” and b) I am inconvenienced by masking.

– I could address those two issues, but what’s the point? You are trying to discredit my arguments by discrediting me as a person and that’s just wrong. The truth is the truth no matter who says it.

– Now back to the flu. I don’t know where you are getting your numbers from nor do I care. According to your logic the entire world should wear masks even to save one human being. How could they put their inconvenience before protecting others? So the infection rate is irrelevant, if masking for the flu will save at least one person – and I’m sure you’ll agree it will – it’s worth the inconvenience.

>Fauci has been a distinguished medical expert for over 30 years<

That’s exactly the problem. He is the most celebrated doctor in the country, yet he openly admits that he is lying to the public.