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Based on the rema (YD 148:12) it seems that there is no issue. I would venture to say that you can probably say a generic “happy holiday “ even around Xmas time
The standard given is aivah/hate with most of the restrictions mentioned in the gemarah removed bc what the goyim practice now is not the avodah zarah meant in the gemarah.
The only real restriction still in effect seems to be going into their houses on the day of their holiday and using the word shalom (since it’s Hashems name)
The kitzur adds more things like supplying them material to help build a church
As for the link above. I can’t open it with my filter and there is no siman 148 in the SA Harav (what is the summary?)
Btw. Even holiday parties are mentioned as being mutar (but a baal nefesh should attempt to not go)Avram
Dont make me use all caps
Let me try this one last time
Any one self identifying as a misnagid is doing so bc he doesn’t respect the chassidik philosophy. If he simply wanted to self identify as someone from a litvish background, he would call himself a litvak.
The historic misnagdim where in open conflict. Shiva was sat on some who went “off the derech” and joined the chassidim. So if you are in open and vocal opposition and you denigrate the philosophy. If you call their practices akin to avodeh zora, why would you take offense when they respond in kind?
Do you really see a major difference between the word snag and telling someone his practices are akin to avodeh zara?Neville
Again with the being deliberately obtuse. It’s almost as if you invent statements that people make just so you can try to score points. I wonder if there is a word (or 2) for that.
No one said anything about an irrational hatred of anyone. The context has always been in the realm of philosophy. Nor did anyone say anything about sitting around and bashing people.
I make the same point, we all prefer our own minhagim and to an extent look down on the minhagim and philosophies of others as being strange. why is it worse when a lubavitcher calls me a snag than when I roll my eyes and make a comment when i see a chassid driving after shkia on erev shabbos?
And another thing, and I do not know how this escaped you. I (and CT) are the non chassidim defending the other side here. At no point did I get involved in this machlokes. Yet you are being pretty persistent about calling out others on there beliefs.
So explain to me how I am the one spewing hatred and you are the mentsch?Avram
I will repeat
If we can be elitist, why can’t they?
I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories. You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.
If all misnagdim were careful to always treat the differing philosophies of their fellow Jews with the utmost respect, then I can hear calling out a segment who doesn’t act the same.
But the whole point of self identifying as a misnagid is showing that you don’t respect the other philosophy.
Technically we started it.If you are a teenage girl still in bed on a Shabbos or Sunday morning at 11:30 AM, it’s definitely not fatigue.
Interestingly
I have never heard the term “snag” bf today. Yet here and I just read Rav Yitzchak new article “were we wrong about chabad” and it has the following quote
I write all of this with firm bona fides as a “snag,” (as Chabad calls misnagdim), in no danger of going over to the Chabad side ideologically.”
apparently he doesn’t see it as an insult eitherNeville
You are being deliberately obtuse
Litvish is what I am, it describes my religious leanings and perhaps my family origins
Misnagdish is the rest of the family who emphatically oppose chassidik philosophy. (I am more ambivalent to chassidik thought). see the difference?
If you would like to create a new term that describes ones opposition to chassidik philosophy, yet does so without implying a litvish inferiority complex, feel free to coin the term.Backing up CT here
Many in my family wear the label “misnagid” with pride
After all, the litvish derech is the only real derech and chassidus is simply a corruption of real yiddishkeit (at least in the eyes of a real misnagid)
And if we can be elitist, why cant they?Neville
I’m starting to think you are a Dave Barry fanAlways
agreed
I spent some more time on it
I can not find anything about an inyan of making a seudah or even a siyum seudah in any litvish source
Though in regards to my questions above I believe the kitzur is mashma it doesn’t have to be dairy (by virtue of his only using the word seudah which I believe traditionally means meat)
Incidentally rav reisman has said in the name of rav Pam that learning would take precedence over visiting the kever. Especially if they are buried in EY and you will end up “wasting”days (and money) better to spend those three days learning and giving the money to tzedakah
Admittedly rav Pam stopped saying it in public, Bc it was an unpopular positionArtScroll mourning in halacha p421-422
1) a mourner can NOT eat at a siyum
2) some say if HE is making the siyum he can eat
3) if a mourner eats on his yartzeit the custom is not to eat meat/wine
It brings down in the footnotes that the ksav Sofer made a dairy siyum
based on this I still have 2 questions
How can someone making a siyum be yotzeh his brothers? In light of #1 they all should have to make a siyum
And in light of #3 , why did the last yartzeit seudah I went to have catered spare ribs as the main?
It still makes me uncomfortableNomesorah
Here’s the quote from the book page 460
“He was always stringent about making sure to drink some thing, because his father told him that if one does not usually eat or drink after a siyum, it is questionable, whether the siyum can replace the fast of the first born on erev pesach. Rav Chaim made it a point to always drink something after each siyum to ensure it was treated as a meaningful gathering”Avirah
Dirshu MB doesn’t fulfill the chayei adoms wishes either
He specifically mentions long cycles. What is the dirshu cycle ? Once every 5+ years?
I do not know anything about sechel learning program. I am simply pointing out that his learning program is no different than the average litvak in terms of chashivus.
I am perfectly fine with labeling the average litvak (including myself) an am haaretz.
I may not prefer or even be machshiv chassidik learning, but that doesn’t make it any less chashuv in the eyes of the Rebonei Shel Olam.Is not Sechel point about learning “too much” achronim similar to the point made by the chayei adom in his hakdamah? (though I hope he knows who that is)
There are 2 aspects to learning
1) learning to fulfil the mitzvah. which can be accomplished with any learning (and I presume chassidus)
2) and learning to know what to do. which requires halachic knowledge
The Chayai adom laments those that “only” have 3 hours a day to learn and focus on gemarrah and remain halachic am haratzim
Or as a LOR once lamented to me “50% of sheilos asked to me are found straight in the kitzur”
So a lubavitcher with a seder in shulchan aruch Harav (or kitzur) would be ahead of any (only) daf yomi litvak in the eyes of the chayei adomIn the biography it brings that rav chaim usually tried to have a kos of wine when finishing a mesechta
But if he was in kollel he always made at least a shehakol (even if only on water)
By celebrating every siyum with food it cements the association and gives more credence to the idea of using a siyum to get out of fastingNomesorah
a yartzeit seudah isn’t inherently a siyum
there are 2 examples i can think of where we use the siyum excuse to get out of fasting, erev RH and Pesach. Rav Chaim was makpid to always make a bracha on at least a cup of water when he finished a mesechta. That way a siyum is always associated with food and the “heter” for using it on erev RH and Pesach makes sense.
But my question is: both erev RH and Pesach are personal tshuva days. so the siyum seems to act in the place of tshuvah. But the yartzeit, is that personal or for the niftar? bc if it is for the niftar, then its nice to make a siyum for the neshama, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to making a party which seems very much not in the spirit of the day.
personally I try not to go to a yartzeit seudah that isn’t a siyum bc without the siyum it seems very wrong.Smiler
I love how you keep comparing yourself to bais shamai
I am more than willing to accept your interpretation of this
Just find a tshuva supporting your POV
Baring that it’s just am haratzus masquerading as tzidkusSo Funny and Sam
I am not aware of a source for a yarzheit seuda, just the opposite the seforim talk about fasting
We certainly fast less than we did in the olden days as we are considered weaker
but assuming funny is correct, that we make a siyum to get out of fasting, is that enough of a reason for a seudah?
isn’t that a bit k’neged the whole point?Coffee
Interestingly enough I saw yesterday that Shivti recently covered this in their chuburah pamphlets
I am referring to the aspect of buying from a jew and whether it is just a mitzvah or chiyuv
The question is relevant to all of us
In the pamphlet there are tshuvos on this.
I am not faulting the OP for his decision to buy in a goyish store. I do not force my wife to only buy jewish. She shops at Aldi’s etc. You can certainly ask me what my heter is.
I am faulting the OP for his reasoning. If he wants to argue it is more convenient, significantly cheaper etc. I cant argue with that
If he wants to argue it is a bigger mitzvah, well, that is falseAAQ
Rav Reisman has discussed that issue also
I do not remember his cheshban and the actual percentage #
But certainly if there are significant differences in prices there is no issue
About 10 years ago I bought pesach plastics that cover my counter tops. I have a small kitchen and a Yiddish company wanted $1200 to make the plastics. I had a goyish company make them for less than $200.
I didn’t lose any sleep over that oneSmiler
You should be that person
Don’t be one of those guys on the sidelines who tells everyone else what they are doing wrong
Get proactive. Start that big Lakewood grocery that caters to your crowd. I am sure you will make a fortune!Avirah
I am curious where you got that “not in the gemarah” part
Mishna peschim 2:1
Yerushalmi perek 2
and then there is the famous toseftasimcha
this case happened to me
a neighbor who holds of the flatbush eiruv came needing lechem mishna
I invited them to eat with us but when they said no I politely refused to give them the bread
certainly to pick it up and hand it to them is assur for me (i made the akirah)
but i felt that aiding in anyway and allowing them to take it on their own was also assur
afterward i asked my LOR after and he agreed with meRav Reisman points out that he doesn’t understand Jews who davka purchase from goyim post pesach
Buying in a Jewish store ie Supporting a Jew is a d’oraysah
Not selling chametz is a chumra
The chumra doesn’t override a d’oraysah
It is one of many misplaced prioritiesIt turns out that chumra has its own wiki entry
Here’s a quoteA second meaning of chumra is simply “a stricter interpretation of a Jewish law (Halakha), when two or more interpretations exist”.
Those who adopt such a stringency do not feel they are adding to the halakha. Rather, they think they are following the baseline requirement (if the strict interpretation is correct) or at least “covering their bases” (if it is impossible to determine whether the strict or lenient opinion is correct). Nevertheless, such stringency may be seen as adding to halacha by someone who believes the lenient interpretation (qulla) is correct.
Seems to me this pretty much sums up the arguments we have here
Simcha
I need to agree with ujm
when it comes to keilim, the gemarah categorizes jews as chaverim or am haratzim
a chaver would always toivel the keli of an am haaretz, and he would never eat his food (which is always tamei d’rabbanum)
It could be that bais shamei and hillel (both chaverim) made exceptions among themselves
but using the MO/chareidi example it is clear the chareidi would toivel the keli of the MO (and he probably wouldn’t eat his food)smerel
my experience with YU was 1 day long and i didnt stick around long enough to find out about different programs (in fact i was so upset i went straight home before the interview)
I found out later that there are different dorms. My YI Rabbi who wanted me to go there was disappointed and told me “of course I would have made sure you are in the better dorm”
But the guys I was visiting were frum. I was with the brother of one of them who was a friend of mine and they grew up in a more modern home in BP
That said
I do not deny there are good people there
I have had the pleasure of having some eat at my table on shabbos. I have had Stern girls who are indistinguishable from bais yaakov girls. I am just relaying my experience. BH it happened. It set me on a different path.Neville
No, not backpedaling
Just not buying into your redefinition of “off the derech”Neville
I’m not saying that at all
By no means are these kids off the derech
They are products of yeshiva high schools that cater to these groups and were successful at keeping them on the derech
But their level of commitment is not what they’re rabbeim we’re hoping for. And they are getting married to similar girls.
Their kids wear yarmulkas (colored ones of course). And are going to frum play groups. And there will be a need for community type schools for their kids.
They are all over the place . Including clusters around Lakewood.Neville
I take issue with you calling them “off the derech” and it’s the same issue I have with Da labeling things as “chumros”
To illustrate I will quote Rav miller on naso (todays toras avigdor. Get the set if you don’t already have it)
“Every Jew looks at those better than him as being fanatics”
That’s why Da thinks all of Lakewood is full of Jews running after chumros
But the reverse is also true
You seem to hold everyone below you is off the derech
I think there is room to acknowledge that we all need to grow while acknowledging that making excuses for staying stagnant is just that, an excuseNeville
And is possible that you aren’t actually aware of the off the derech problem in the yeshivish community ?
Because I find it hard to believe that there is someone out there who is blind to the fact that for every yeshivish kid who became “modern” there is at least one who is truly off the derech
And it isn’t just kids. I know numerous marriages broken up Bc one spouse decided to go off (and also one couple that decided to do it together)Da
I left the MO world the day I went for my YU interview and saw posters of model’s hanging in the dorms. I realized you can’t be both a yeshiva and a university.
Ultimately after frumming out I ended up in Brooklyn college. It was a cesspool 30 years ago. Now very few black hat guys end up there. There are much better options like touro/landers
I would never pay for kids to go to a place like Brooklyn let alone an Ivy League college. But in the MO world they look at it as an act of distinction to go to Harvard as opposed to the travesty it truly isLet’s also be honest that there is a newish classification of just plain “modern” when applied to those who came from black hat families but now don’t identify as such.
Growing communities (even in Lakewood) whose commitment is indistinguishable from MO, and perhaps even worse. They keep shabbos and minimal kashrut but might not put on tzitzis or only go to shul on shabbos.
Ideologically they aren’t “MO” Perhaps subconsciously they have deeper guilt feelings . But from what I can tell there are minimal differences.
This group is now having kids. I’m assuming the day will come soon when there are schools even in Lakewood whose children are growing up in houses where there are tv’s.
So why can’t we just agree that there are ideological differences between the camps . But there is much movement between these camps.Avirah
by extension lets criticize fund raising
A huge/gashmiosdik tzedakah auction just took place
A huge amount of money went into the prizes that could have gone to the tzedakah instead, so cut that out, it’s “gashmiosdik”
Think of big weddings as a fund raiser for rich balei batim
They spend a lot of money on the wedding (which is technically a mitzvah) and by extension give more money to tzedakahAlso
I reject the original premise
Wealthy balei batum do not create a “keeping up with the jonses” attitude. We all know we are in a different category
It’s your next door neighbor who can’t afford it who does it anyway.
Choose good neighbors. Choose a good shul where there is no pretense. In my shul every kiddush is the same rich or poor, Most weddings are basic and those that are not, I have yet to see anyone feel compelled to keep up with the rich mispallilim.
So be a good example. The next simcha you make, dial it down, make it basic and set a good example.
and OP
I am curious
Why harp on this and not the mansions going up in lakewood with $250K chandeliers? I have a much bigger problem with that than weddingsModern
Would you care to elaborate on the “bad translation “
Are you referring to “you should not kill”?
Because ArtScroll gets that one wrong also (metsudah correctly translates that one)Rav Hunter said years ago that it is within the spirit of giving and to leave them alone
If you tell the wealthy to be stingy by themselves then the same middah carry’s over to their tzedakah
Why can’t people just do their own thing?
I’m a simple person who makes simple affairs even though BH I can afford more. Do your own thing and people will respect you for not bowing to peer pressureDrr
That’s so yeshiva bachur
Refined palates have moved beyond sauceSomeday
The pshat is still flawed
How long can someone survive without a suit?
0-30 seconds in the vacuum of space, less than 2 minutes on Mercury, less than a second on Venus, 80 years on Earth, 3 minutes on the Moon, 2 minutes on Mars, less than a second on Jupiter, and less than a second on Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.Someday
I’m not sure if you were serious but clearly that isn’t a good pshat
You can certainly touch the moon. All you need is a pressurized tent.
You could even farm the moon given the right botanical conditions. After all Mark Watney grew potatoes on mars.not
Let’s say a yid gets trapped in a foreign country. Maybe he is facing jail or even a death sentence. You are friends with the king and can pick up the phone and beg him to intercede. The king has influence especially in former UK countries and agrees to do you a favor.
In the eyes of the naysayers (Ujm /Neville) is that good enough for you to justify what you perceive as a wrongdoing ? Bc that isn’t an unlikely scenario. Some unsavory politicians have saved the lives of Jews .Neville/Ujm
We know hatzaloh takes calls on shabbos for goyim Bc of aivah
So if a Jewish doctor walks by a church (he’s got his lab coat on/ stethoscope over his neck, doctors bag in hand etc)
Suddenly someone runs out and says “someone inside is having a heart attack you need to come!”
The proper response is “sorry, can’t do it”?Frumkeit
So by your way of thinking
Every rabbi/frum Askan should refuse to shake the hand of politicians who are immoral?
Because that pretty much excludes all of themCT
Don’t blame you on the NY part
Avoid at all costs
Actually what I was saying was that the second amendment was written at a time of mandatory membership in the militia, making the second half of the clause logical. The militias became the organized (national ie federal guard) and unorganized (aka the NY/state guard)
If you look at the NY military code and us code all able bodied men are automatically members. They might not be sworn in but that is how it is written. I’m guessing it’s a holdover from the original mandatory membership of revolutionary times.
10 code us 246 and ny military 2 establish all able bodied men (17-45)as being in a militia
Now I may be missing legal nuance, but that’s why I’ve got youCommon
Just curious (same question applies to neville) do you guys actually remember these old threads that you go searching for them when appropriate?
Because frankly I can barely remember my kids namesCome join me in shul. Someone has to keep the world going by actually doing some learning
Neville
I see what you did there
I thought you saw the nuance
Unless this has nothing to do with the other thread
If not I apologizeI’m still trying to figure out if rebdoniel was a real convert
Ct
Fun fact (I just learnt this) technically (at least in NY) every able bodied male between 17-45 is already a member of the unorganized militia (NY Guard) though not on active status till called up by the governor
So we need to refine your grievance
Since the second half of the amendment is clearly meant to make sure the citizenry is ready for active status, so is it fair to say you are against gun ownership by anyone other than law enforcement and active military regardless of the wording of the amendment?
I know, this isn’t the thread for this, but you can always respond in the mass shooting threadHe was referring to me
didnt like my comment though I do not know why
I thought I was being very fair and balancedDa
I can accept the first half of that statement, but the second half breaks from reality.