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Listen, if a well known and very respected modern orthodox rabbi can cite a figure of 50%, even if it is off it is going to be in the ballpark. Is 50% an overestimate? We don’t have proof either way. It might be an overestimate. It might be an underestimate. Or it might be right on target. But even if it is off, it is not going to be widely off the mark, otherwise it is inconceivable such a highly respected rabbi — who himself is modern orthodox! in one of the largest MO communities in the world! who has a lot of experience with MO families with his rabbinical/pastoral pulpit position, being the rov of a shul with 600 (yes, 600) MO families — would cite the figure.
Rabbi Pruzansky doesn’t need a study to see the extent and magnitude of the problem. He experiences it every day in his line of work.
Interesting discussion. Does anyone have any theories as to why the proportion of people who go OTD is 10 times higher in the modern orthodox communities than it is in the chareidi communities?
(I see there is a lot of discussion on the exactitude of the 50% figure, but even if it is off it is obvious we are dealing with a huge number.)
That’s pretty bad. That is approaching the assimilation rate of the conservatives and reform.
I knew this already in high school and was reminded of it by my kalla teacher as well. Though I don’t know how common my experience is.September 22, 2011 5:18 am at 5:18 am in reply to: Do Married Women Help Out Doing the Yard Work and Car? #1074696
Let men be men, and let women be women. Let the men do the men’s jobs, and let the women do the women’s jobs. When we start giving men women’s jobs and women men’s jobs, we start having problems. And lest anyone say there are no such things as men’s jobs and women’s jobs, don’t forget what the Egyptians did to us. They forced us to work the opposite genders job as a form of torturing us. Lets not volunteer to do what we were previously forced to.
Dr. Pepper: I am that girl’s parent!!
i hope your school doubles your tuition so you can have the zchus to support some kollel guys, even if you dont want to.
wiy, i really dont get you. on another thread you were an apologist for immorality, saying a guy can hide his former immoral ways from his kallah. and here you are supporting immorality again, apologizing for the toeivaniks! we really need 10 rabbi levin’s.October 11, 2010 5:43 am at 5:43 am in reply to: How do you get out of saying you're going on a date? #699763
wiy, i very much disagree with your comment. 1) there is no reason anyone needs to know you are dating someone on whatever day. in fact, it is a little bit lacking tznius to discuss. 2) how do you reconcile your above comment about being “honest”, with your previous assertions in the CR, that it is okay to lie about your previous immoral behavior to potential shidduchim?? 3) your assumptions of who is or isn’t a friend, based on what you don’t tell them is quite faulty.
dont kid yourself pashute yid. the promiscuity very much goes on.
b”h you don’t notice it.
i suggested you contact daas torah directly in one of these communities, if you have any doubts. you will find what i related to be correct.
heavyweight (stonewash) denim, which is a course denim with a faded pale blue appearance, that looks even worse in the hem and seam areas, is unfit for the clothes of men and all the more for the clothes of women and girls. (in some specially refined circles, women and girls do not wear any type of denim, although it is hard-wearing and practical, because it is related by name and basic appearance to the rough types of denim which stand for uncivilized and outlandish styles of life. they do not wear denim skirts even when the skirts are quite different from those worn by the lower classes, being dark colored rather than a light faded blue, and sewn with unobtrusive stitches instead of the usual prominent and coarse stitches.)
the Ben Ish Chai writes in his Sefer (and this is a constant theme in the various meforshim):
“True a woman may wear garments that suit her well and enhance her appearance. She must, however, not wear a garment that local Jewish women feel should not be worn.”
but don’t just take my word for it. consult daas torah yourself from one of the communities where denim is not acceptable, and ask the rov if its okay to wear it.
that’s more of a question for the daas torah that implemented the standards.
many people understand why bnei torah don’t wear denim pants. is a bas yisroel any less? (that’s my pshat btw. daas torah may have other reasons for whatever standards they implement in their communities.)
the Halacha is that one must follow/maintain a community one is in/part of’s community standards of tznius.
the standards im talking about are those set by daas torah.
all i am relating is the fact that denim skirts goes against many community standards of tznius. other communities not. but we are talking about the OP.
kapusta, i was simply explaining the likely reason of the OP in particular. after all, that is who we are talking to. thanks
its against many community standards, perhaps including the OP’s. as you know, community standards play a very important role in tznius.
just dont make a big deal of it. if asked, answer honestly. if anyone gives you a hard time, try your best to bear with it without answering back. let criticism slide off you as best as you can.
i think its great you took the leap, and you should keep with it! 🙂
the best suggestion i can offer, is don’t be shy about your commitment and decision. and stick to it. don’t ask for favors, but if asked why be honest. if you can manage with your current wardrobe, that would be awesome.
perhaps others can chime in with other helpful ideas too…
keep it up & good luck
you said it is “davar ha’aveid”, so it sounds like you told your rov you may entail a loss, hence the heter. without the davar ha’aveid you can’t rely on a heter given for a davar ha’aveid. ywn isn’t a davar ha’aveid.
well said yitzy99.
what’s the heter to type on a computer forum? (no need for the wisecracks, what am i doing here. i am asking.) i understand your heter was for work purposes, not entertainment.
nossond, i agree with you that the rantings against tznius stems from the yetzer hora. anytime the topic of tznius is raised you will find some people ranting against it trying to shut up those people.
i was once in a shul and there was a sign for an upcoming shiur by a very choshuv rov regarding tznius. a person next to me at the sign started ranting “how dare rabbonim speak about tznius! he should mind his own business! its not for men to deal with!” unbelievable. just from seeing a sign for a shiur. i guess he doesn’t realize shulchan aruch talks about tznius, as does so many other seforim. and it is the job of rabbonim and rebbetzins to talk about the problems in this area, as it really is everyone’s responsibility.
i notice this pattern anytime tznius comes up, you have those people. the worst part is that this topic is almost repressed. it is so rarely discussed in real life (outside of the internet and blogs.) i don’t see this phenomenon much with other issues interestingly. we honestly need more of these real life discussions to remind ourselves.
He said NYPD *volunteers*, which means Auxiliary Police.
BYBP is humongous (10 classes per grade?) i doubt the other schools could pick up the slack, even cumulatively. and hashkafa does make a difference. not all are created equal.
same source that any tightness is not allowed. better ask for any purported source why the upper arm should be different than the upper leg.
100% of the time?
completely? safely? care to share the secret formula?September 1, 2010 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm in reply to: Funny Shidduch Questions Asked About a Boy/Girl/Family #914031
dr. pepper, wasn’t he worried you might in the future not redd him shidduchim of girls with more than one name? he could of simply said its not for me without specifying the reason(s)…
“Are you going to tell me that you equate a girl wearing a nice outfit, but the sleeves come a little above her elbow…”
yes, “a little” above the elbow is pritzus. regardless of where you live. the same shulchan aruch applies everywhere.
i agree with kapusta. the basis of the question is wrong. the “incremental” cost of each child does not result in sufficient savings, that rejecting them will result in keeping the school open if they otherwise would not be able to. the fixed costs remain the same.
exactly. elbows, upper arms, knees, upper legs, must be covered in NON-tight fitting clothing.
tight fitting clothing is against the very basic concepts of tznius and plain halacha, and as taught to every beis yaakov girl who paid attention.
there is no exceptions for tight fitting clothing. read simple halacha. whether its the waist, arms, or legs.
sacrilege, TIGHT clothing is an aveira and against halacha, whether you live in meah sheorim, flatbush, smalltown-usa, kiryas yoel, timbuktu, london, or milwaukee. its not a sensitivity issue, its not minhug hamokem, it is plain basic outright halacha.
tzippi, you expect your husband and sons to walk with their eyes closed when crossing the street (or just walking down the block)? your husband and sons don’t see your neighbors wives when they are both walking in front of your house? it is assur for them to even SEE (let alone notice) your neighbors wives and daughters when they aren’t dressed appropriately. unless they cross the street with their eyes closed (and pray a car doesn’t hit them) they WILL see. and human nature is if they see such a woman they will notice. if they don’t, they need a doctor.
sacrilege, tight is pritzus. anything that needs to be covered, must be covered with something NOT tight. the elbows and upper arms must be covered, and the shell sleeves cannot be tight – just as any other clothing cannot be tight, otherwise it is pritzus.
because we have a Torah that we follow.
sacrilege: most things here are absolute halacha. wearing a tight shell is pritzus. that is a halachic violation, not just a sensitivity. riding a bike, whereas the leg shows while riding, is a halachic violation.
You make some good points. (Be prepared for some rich hitmen commentators to attack here for infringing on their Swiss vacations, by making a comment asking for financial assistance.) But I’m sure the school is doing all it can to fund-raise.
d a is engaged?? mazal tov!
a shell which is tight, with the sleeves on the elbow and above tight and showing the figure is not just a non-tznius look (it is that too), but actual pritzus.
btw, those belts around the waist also result in a pritzus tight fit of the upper body.
sister bear, only exercise without boys/men around. (e.g. not in the street or mixed gym.)
Sister Bear, $4,000 is what is actually paid after discounts (if applicable), or is that the “asking price”? Is it a yeshivish school? How old is the child? Do you have several siblings in the same school, and that is the price per child?
“what is better?”
who said either are acceptable?
So far it seems fair to say that generally speaking tuition under $4,000 (for one child in a school) is only available in Chasidish mosdos. Litvish mosdos seem to be $4,000 and up. MO are upwards of $10,000.
aqua, of course there is a problem if the sleeves (upper arm or elbow) is tight.
tight fitted sleeves are not tznius.
School season is back. Perhaps others can add their insights and participate in this survey by providing feedback on what their tuition costs are.
the biggest problem is that the shells themselves are more often than not too tight.
or, as the gedolim will tell you, will allow indecency to happen.
Sjs, what religion do you practice? The one I do, uses SA as its code of law.
When is the next, promised, installment coming forth?