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Trivial Pursuit, original genus – best game, ever! I also like Tri-Bond and Blurt.
Now M-r is comparing women who wear short sleeves to a bona fide pervert who molests children???? Wow!
“BTW I think we live in the same neighborhood. We lost two 17 year old boys in a very short time a few years ago. Both similar stories”
It’s very possible we do, though I would imagine that R”L there is no geographic limit to such tragedy occurring, and it could be Anywhere, USA. I only know about the boys. B”H I never heard about the girls. It is too sad for words. Thank G-d they had a better outcome.
Aries, first of all, Mazel Tov on what must surely be a very proud accomplishment both for you and for the young man. May he bo zocheh to build a B”NB with his kallah.
I agree with virtually everything you posted (Philosopher is a she, btw), and I believe that love is mekareiv and harsh words and a “my way or the highway” attitude will have the opposite effect on someone already disenfranchised. The words that resonated the strongest with me, were when you wrote about the nachas of being off a suicide watch. Unfortunately, I am acquainted with two families who lost children to drugs (we want to believe the overdoses were accidental), but the pain of these very nice members of the community is still palpable after many years, nebbich.
Whether by deliberate suicide or accidental improper combinations of drugs and alcohol, the unfathomable pain for the parents of these kids can never go away. I applaud the rebbies, community members, professional therapists, etc. who look at these types of yiddishe neshamas as “lost” but not irretrievably so, and try to help them, not condemn them.
Kasha, first of all, I don’t learn Gemarah, but I did learn the Kimchis STORY many, many times throughout my life, and it was NEVER meant to be an halachic inyan, only a lesson about her level of tznius (and we were not being told to emulate that level, just to understand it). It does not mean that the Gemarah is AGREEING with her that all women should do the same, only that the Gemarah is telling her story to make a point about how far she was prepared to go in her commitment to personal tznius. Does the Gemarah actually say, “YES, rabbosai – Kimchis was correct – her children were exceedingly beautiful and became kohanim Gedolim b’davka because the inanimate objects in her house never saw a hair of her head” – SERIOUSLY? There are plenty of things the Gemarah is “wont” to include that may be personal conjecture. There is a rabbi in Pirkei Avos who said not to be marbeh sicha with nashim, and it is told how (I think it was) Beruriah gave him mussar on that, when he used too many words to ask her for directions to Lyddah. Not all rabbonim agree with each other, and many things in the Gemarah are meant to teach a certain hashkafa to us but not necessarily halacha which is accepted by all or most.
We should be tzniusdig, both men and women, in all aspects of our lives. What one person chooses to be machmir on, does not invalidate the observance of one who is not machmir in the same way. the danger of stories like this one is that people such as yourself start to be hyper-critical (not hypocritical) of other people who are FOLLOWING the actual halacha, because you begin to think of the chumrah as the halacha and the halacha as “minimal observance, at best.” Tell me I am wrong about that, because everything I have ever read from you, tells me otherwise. And I absolutely respect and applaud your right to believe, follow, observe, every chumrah ever adopted and those yet to be thought of. But please, please, please stop preaching to the oilem as if we are all sinners and you are the one with the universal clue. Because if that is not your intention, then you are coming off that way to me, and possibly to other posters (though I can only speak for myself).
“(I’m thinking this might even work with people/families that routinely breach tznius b’rabim — by also picketing in front of their houses after asking them to stop and they ignore it.) “
Who ARE you people? You would actuslly have the chutzpah to picket in front of someone’s private home, embarrassing them b’rabim (a lav d’Oraisa that is equal to murder) because YOU don’t think they have the right to buy clothing that YOU deem less than tzniusdig?????? I hope you are a 100% tzaddik yourself (though how can you be, if you are prepared to be oveir a lav of hamalbin es pnei chaveiro?) The only answer I can come up with is that you are totally messing with us, to see what kind of reaction you will get, and that is so KINDERGARTEN-ish.
I left a bottle of water in the car today (103 degree weather), and when I came back to the cat, just half an hour later, the bottle was so hot, I could have made a cup of tea with it, and could barely hold the bottle in my hand. Now think of leaving a child in that same heat, chas v’chalilah, even for “just a minute.” R”L.
Yossi, you can open such a dialogue (after everyone is well-fed and rested)on your own, just by saying you want to sit down and have a talk with them. OR – you can wait for the subject to come up, say, about a friend or family member who becomes engaged, and use it as a springboard for such a discussion. Good luck to you.
It’s a good thing no one ever told RAMBAM not to pursue higher education. Also, if we want doctors, lawyers, accountants, CEOs who are ehrliche menschen and run their practices according to a Torahdig hashkafa, with sensitivity to their frum patients and clients, there ought to be frum people going to college and beyond.
“Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost”
Forgive me if I am mistaken, and by all means PLEASE correct me, but I was under the impression that it was KIMCHIS HERSELF who when asked why her children were so special, said that her exceedingly beautiful children were the reward for the beams of her house never seeing a single hair. If I am not mistaken, then it’s well and good for her to believe that about herself, but it really is nothing more than her personal conjecture.
The Gemarah clearly is teaching an ideeology that women should be tzniusdig, but this story, like many stories, is meant to illustrate a point, not to be taken as a p’sak halacha, I would think.
No, but it helps if there is not a WIDE difference. The united front idea is very impotant, especially in raising children.
LAguy is absolutely right. Yichus in middos is way more important than yichus as we define it. I knew what kind of man my husband is, and when I met his parents for the first time, I immediately knew WHY he was that kind of man. he grew up in a non-frum home that was filled with more chessed than you can imagine. His parents took care of both sets of grandparents in his home(first the maternal grandparents, until they died, and then his paternal grandmother until she passed), his mom’s sister who was prematurely widowed and left with two small children, whom my mother-in-law helped to raise while her sister went out to work, and then when my dear MIL had a devastating stroke at age 42, my wonderful FIL took care of her until the day she died, for the next 35 years. he did so, not only without a word of complaint, but with letting her feel like she was still the akeres habayis. No easy feat with someone who was totally bedridden and helpless. Everything was done with love and true chesed, and fortunately that is what my children remember, more than the fact that their grandma was bedridden and blind.
Now, every BT is not filled with chesed, just as every FFB is not. There are nice and friendly people and there are nasty people in every strata of life. But we do have an achrayus to be welcoming to BT, to give them chizuk, and to make them feel they are truly part of the klal. That does not necessarily result in shidduchim with them, but maybe it is our achrayus to try and help them FIND the right shidduch…
We sing Ka Ribon to the A-llelujah song from Shrek. It works so beautifully, and harmonizing with it creates a truly uplifting and spiritual ambience. I first heard it done with L’ch Dodi, but it fit to Ka Ribon also.
If you are just about in the Parsha, Yossi, then you should sit down and talk calmly with your parents and get the sense what each of you in thinking in this area. It may or may not be that you are all on the same page. In either case,don’t wait until you are redt to someone or meet someone, to be clear about your needs and intentions.
Tomim, you said it pretty well, yourself. I am just more long-winded than you are 😉
“At any rate, rest assured. Us FFBs are also “baale teshuva” on an ongoing basis, so we’re all in the same boat “
that’s the most important line I have read in this thread. BPT is so on the mark.
For anonymrs who asked, a ben/bat niddah is the child conceived of a woman who did not go to Mikvah according to the laws of Jewish Family Purity/Taharas Hamishpacha.
The ben Niddah issue never was of any consequence to me. I looked at my husband’s emesdig character, and said, “That is the man who should be my children’s father.” My husband has a pure neshama on his own. It is a shame his mom was not frum, but we are all tamei, and it is more important that our children ARE the product of taharas hamishpacha, and so are their children.
paper bag dramatics is another great game. You divide the kids into groups, give each one a bag filled with things like scotch tape, gift wrap tissue paper, streamers, etc. and then a paper on which is written something that they have to act out, making costumes using only what was given to them. The other team(s) have to guess what they are acting out. They are given a certain amount of time (15 minutes, for example) to make their respective costumes.
I am FFB married to a BT. He is the best person I know, and no one I have ever met has his middos, his personal tznius, his Ahavas Habriyos, and his desire to do chesed. I am humbled in his presence.
That being said, it is not so glatt to say that no one should discriminate against a BT. When you marry someone, you marry that person’s family and background as well. Some in-laws, like mine (B”H a million times) were always supportive of my husband’s choices in frumkeit. Some, however, are really disgusted by the “fanatics” that their kids have turned into, and want to reform them at all costs.
A potential shidduch has to be not only aware of the problems that may exist, but also be prepared to live with this problems. Not everyone is so inclined. And I do not blame them. I was one of the luckier ones. My in-laws were delighted their son became religious and married a religiouos girl. They boasted to all their friends about their yeshivah grandchildren. Other in-laws may harangue their kids for not coming over on a Saturday, or not attending Cousin Brooke’s wedding to Antony DeMarco. These are very real issues that arise, and the inyan of the non-Jewish wedding was one which caused the ONLY argument between my in-laws and us, that we ever had.
Most girls don’t want or need more drama in their lives. It’s hard enough getting along with a frum mother-in-law, for some of them. Getting involved with an entire side of the family that is not religious, causes upsets regarding the wedding, raising the children, the kashrus problem (I cannot tell you how many family parties we were invited to, where I had to bring my own food, because we would be there a substantial amount of time, and rather late, too).
There are many, many other issues, and you asked us to be honest. It is sometimes difficult to be around a new BT (or one of short duration), because for some reason, they tend to go overboard in observance of minutiae that are not halachos. They make the ikar tafeil and the tafeil the ikar. I am not saying this is true of Aura, only that it is a reason why people are leery of shidduchim with BT.
IMHO, as was mentioned by someone – I believe that BT generally are best redt to other BT. They can grow together and make their own frum reality. They understand where each other is coming from, and I think they are better at being mechazeik each other if they are sensitive and loving.
I invite them to my home for Shabbos meals, to start.
When I was in College, I used to crochet Yarmulkes (so the frum kids would know that I was one of them), and I made over two dozen for guys who promised to wear them if I made them. Out of the dozens, I know for a fact at least 7 who not only wore them, but are frum today (I do not take credit for it at all – these guys started to come to Jewish-oriented events at school after they started wearing the yarmulkes, and someone good in kiruv chaaped them).
the best way to be mekareiv someone is by example. When someone OTD or never-frum, sees a frum person being a really good guy, being a wonderful neighbor, NOT being judgmental, it opens up some emotional floodgates in them that can lead to kiruv. When I had a neighbor who was sitting shiva, though not frum, I cooked a meal for her, and arranged for other neighbors do the same. Maybe she will never be frum, but she has a lot more respect for frumkeit now than she did before. Small steps can lead to traversing miles.
I misunderstood. Applesauce makes the most sense. Oh well… (HEY. WHO YOU CALLIN’ TYPICAL????)
You are comparing selling pork to selling clothing that you do not consider to be tzniusdig. One is not comparable to the other. Maybe stores should not sell bathing suits, either. If a frum store owner sells food, IMO it SHOULD only be kosher food, because of lifnei iveir if nothing more. But you cannot speak about clothing in the same breath. Supposing the frum person buying untzniusdig (in your opinion) clothing, plans to wear them exclusively in front of her husband and no one else? It certainly is not assered in the Torah to do so, whereas the eating of pork is a definite Torah no-no.
“But I do believe the others on this post, do nothing to mekarev rechokim and use the attidude of “let them come to me”, as an excuse.”
Where do you get that idea? That’s a rather broad statement of assumption, with no facts in evidence to back it up. Do you personally know each and every one of the CR posters?
“It has to do with the fact that the spanish had better weapons then them, it has nothing to do with the strength of their beleifs. “
Add to that the fact that the Spaniards brought smallpox to them, a heretofore unknown disease in Mexico. It wiped so many out.
Only Hashem knows who is going to gehenim and who is not. The rasha can be mekabeil olam haba in an instant.
Yanky, you may be a very ehrliche yid, but you are not the yid that Aharon Hakohein was, and you are DEFINITELY not the type of person who would succeed in kiruv work in my neighborhood. Put the fear of G-d into them??? PUT THE LOVE OF G-D INTO THEM. And please do not call yourself a mekareiv.
Divide each apple into quarters, and each fourth in thirds. Give one third of each quarter to each child. Each child will receive 7 x 1/3 of 1/4 or 7/12 of the apples. Does that make any sense?? It did in my head a minute ago, now I am not so sure.
I subscribe to the belief that “M’toch shelo lishma, ba lishma,” I have said it repeatedly. When dealing with OTD kids, boy or girl, divrei tochacha b’nachas nishmaim. If you come down on them or approach them all judgmental a breathing fiery kana-us, all you will do is be marchik them even more. And I would tend to feel that that probably would be an aveira.
“my OPINION is that these songs do not belong at any Jewish wedding, not only at mine, take it or leave it, as i said somewhere before!”
Ok, fine, don’t have it at your wedding, and do not feel it is right for someone else to have at someone else’s wedding, but for goodness sakes, please do not tell the other person that their choice to do so is a bad thing. Keep it to yourself, because your opinion (while worthy) is not halachic in nature.
At my own wedding, I did not allow ANY non-Jewish music to be played even during the dinner. All dinner music was slow Jewish music. But I did not presume to tell my friend (a VERY frum woman) who marched down at her own wedding to some symphony piece, that she offended my sensibilities by doing so at a chasunah.
The entire argument here comes down to whether or not it is always appropriate and obligatory to give mussar to someone. The answer is ONLY when the person is clearly violating an absolute halacha, not a chumrah, not a minhag of some, etc. If a frum yid is eating kosher cholov stam ice cream and you feel that it is an aveira to eat anything but cholov Yisroel, please hold your tongue. If you see him eating it right after he ate a salami sandwich, by all means remind him he is fleishig.
I really must proofread before I hit Send Post.
No, that is not what I said, Max. BTY WHOSE standards,exactly it is wrong? That is VERY shayach to the inyan. Just because you think someone is wrong, does not necesssarily make YOU correct in your opinion. The Torah obligates us to give mussar to someone committing an aveira (but we also have to assess the situation and determine whether or not the person is committing b’shogeig, and will then be committing b’meizid, if you sday something at that moment). But that aveira has to be a definite issur D’Oraisah, not just YOUR opinion that it is assur. Don’t give mussar to someone eating at a KOSHER restaurant that you do not frequent yourself, because you hold by a different hechsher. Too many people quite arrogantly assume that ONLY they know the halacha. There are shivim panim l’Torah and not all rabbonim are maskim with each other. There are specifics of the Torah that must never ever be abrogated (except possibly in the case of pikuach nefesh), but there are so many gray areas, and your gray areas and mine may not be the same. Before you choose to give mussar to someone a) make absolutely sure that what you are saying is a given across the board to ALL Torah-observing Jews and b)that your own hands are clean in those areas. And always speak kindly to the person to whom you are giving that tochacha, otherwise it goes in one ear and out the other.
Why didn’t the Maccabees have applesauce with their potato latkes on Chanukah?
Because they preferred sour cream (and it wasn;t chanukah yet).
Some men are completely INCAPABLE of being the so-called boss, and being forced into that role, puts a great strain on the marriage. I know a couple, a bit younger than myself, where the wife really HAS to take charge, or nothing would ever get done by them. Her husband is a nice enough person, and we enjoy their company, but if she did not make the decisions, decisions would not be made. I personally do not know how their marriage has worked for over 25 years, but work, it does! The dynamic of their household ONLY works when she is in charge. BTW, I know her from before they were married, and she was never a bossy type back then. It evolved that way, because he is a mild person who does not have the desire to take that leadership role and is content for her to do as she wishes.
Great story, and illustrative of the power of logic…
“With all due respect, that is a load of nonsense and closed-minded-ness. If something is wrong it is wrong, and if someone believes that the Torah demands that everyone be vegetarian than it his obligation to argue his point;”
With equal respect, what you posted was as much nonsense as you seem to think my words were. “IF SOMEONE BELIEVES…” is the crux of the matter. Your belief, her belief, anyone else’s belief, does not give that person the right to criticize, UNLESS THEIR BELIEF IS BACKED UP BY THE ACTUAL TORAH. Her belief may be based on a misunderstanding. I have been told there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this music being played at a wedding. I personally do not think that Eye of the Tiger is the “most” appropriate song for the chosson and kallah’s entrance, but that is my personal taste, and I certainly would not seek to tell off someone who feels differently. Please express your OPINION (and so far, ALL it is IS an opinion), but state it as such and not in a critical way.
This is what gets people’s dander up in the CR – when some folks state things as absolutes according to the Torah, and they are potentially very wrong in their assertion. My Rov did not hold as you do, even in davening, he had been known to use a bit of melodic OPERA when doing the chazoras hashatz, if appropriate to the moment. I think that if you or anyone else has a strong belief about something, by all means express it as your personal hashkafa (which is your right), but please do not give mussar to others, because you do NOT have a right to do so under any and all circumstances, despite what you believe. Even if you believe that The Torah assers meat, which clearly it does not or there would be no mitzvah of korban Pesach, you have no right to make someone feel bad because he is not a vegetarian.
“oomis1105
the clean one takes a shower.
the one that’s clean See’s the dirty one and thinks he’s dirty, and vice versa “
CH123 had the correct answer.
The person asking to be taught Gemara logic, when asked to answer the question, first replied, “The dirty one, of course,” to which the rov replied the answer that ChesedName gave. The student then looked up as he understood the explanation, and said, “Oh NOW I understand Gemarah logic. The Rov looked at him and said, “No my son, I am afraid you do not. Do you honestly believe that if two boys go down a sooty chimney only ONE of them will emerge with a dirty face??????? THAT, is Gemarah logic.”
That’s too much like the two boys go down a chimney and one comes out with a dirty face and the other has a clean face. Which one washes up? (this is actually a lesson in Gemarah logic)
I never heard the terms Orthoprax before, though I know what it means. I think we should not be quick to negatively judge such people, because even if they do not “feel” their Yiddishket,at least they are practicing it outwardly – which shows that they would be embarrassed NOT to. I am of the school that says “m’toch shelo lishma, ba lishma.” The trick is to get the Orthoprax Jew to FEEL, so that he is no longer just going through the motions.
Many mothers are clearly uncomfortable talking about these things in clear terms. There should be teachers specifically trained (maybe Kallah class teachers) who talk to the girls.
Once a Kid hits 12 and 13 (girl and boy respectively), they have the halachic obligation to do mitzvos. That does not ensure that they are mature. In the olden days, when boys and girls actually had real farm type chores to do, they did mature a great deal faster than the children of today. We spoonfeed everything to our kids, they have a sense of entitlement such as no generation never had before. They do not truly respect their elders or generations that have gone on before them. They are neither mature enough to marry and raise their own children,nor sufficiently intelligent to know what real life is all about. Not at age 12 and 13. Not nowadays. There are exceptions to every rule, but generally speaking, adolescents are not ready to take on the world, much as they beg to differ.
“The torah demands that men keep far away from women who arent married to them or immediate reletives.”
I don’t recall learning that, but you do that, Moshe. Your nieces will be just fine. The Torah says M’dvar sheker tirchak, but does it say to stay away from females and not talk to them? However, there are people who hold that.
In order for mechanchim and hanhala to undergo training, they would have to a) acknowledge that there is a problem and b)go to professional (meaning COLLEGE educated) sources, to get that training. There is a need for the willingness to do so. Many yeshivos do not want to cop to the problem existing in their mossad.
” She has a chiyuv of hocheiach tochiach es amisecha. She’s not being selfish, she is doing what the Torah requires her to do.”
That is in the case where something is a clearcut issur (such as seeing someone be mechallel Shabbos on purpose). It certainly does not apply to someone who is doing something with which she “philosophically” disagrees. Let her not do it herself, if it bothers her. But if someone wants to eat something fleishig and she is a vegetarian, she has no right to give him mussar and use “hocheiach tochiach” as a justification for doing so.
“When our gedolim make a decree they dont do it becuz of culture. What goyish culture does doesnt mean anything to us. if they dont call there wifes by there first names than its because thats what the Torah wants of them (and us). It has nothing to do with goyish culture or goyish society.”
I am not certain, but exactly WHEN did our Gedolim make the decree that it is assur to call one’s wife by her given name in public????? I must have been out taking a walk at the time.
“Sheesh, mosherose, lighten up! Just because not everyone does exactly what you do (or what you CLAIM to do, or what you preach) doesn’t mean they’ll “roast” for it.
Am I the only one that’s waiting for the day that mosherose pops out and says “Surprise! I’m really an open-minded, colored-shirt-wearing, YU graduate with a PhD in astrophysics and nothing better to do with my time than stir up other people”? “
I was wondering that myself.
“that “it is not really hurting” me? “
Because if you are honest with yourself, you will see that it is the IDEA of that music being non-Jewish and played at a simcha, that is bothering you, and not the melody itself. For one second, try to just be a person listening to something beautiful or inspirational. Hashem gave chochma to people besides the Jews, and that chochma allowed them to produce beautiful music, great art, and literature. If there is something that personally offends you because it is not to your taste, so be it. Don’t listen to it on your own time, don’t read it, and don’t go to see it in a museum. But don’t make negative comments that imply that someone else is practically committing an AVEIRA because THEY happen to like it.
I don’t care for rap music OR heavy metal. But even Led Zepplin wrote a piece like Stairway to Heaven (the one thing I can listen to and not cringe). You can dislike something, but it doesn;t have to hurt you.
“if they dont call there wifes by there first names than its because thats what the Torah wants of them (and us). “
If it actually said that in the Torah or the Talmud, I would agree. Please show me the exact place and quote where it does, and I will not say another word on this subject.
“Perfect is relative.”
LOL, not MY relatives!
I hear you. However, when girls don’t “chap” it might be because when teaching them about personal tznius in dress and in action, no one speaks plainly to them about why tznius is crucial, and they are as yet, too innocent to understand the ramifications on their own. All the comments of “kol kvoda bas melech pnima” won’t cut it for the girl who might need to be told without fanfare and straightforwardly,”When a girl dresses in such and such a way, the biological reactions that Hashem gave to men, might lead them to have inappropriate thoughts and physical responses to what they see. Hashem designed us this way for a good reason, but not unless the time and circumstance are filled with kedusha, such as in marriage.”
Merely telling a girl she should dress modestly because it is the right thing to do, does not enhance her understanding of the negative results of her failure to dress and act modestly. Hence, they do not always “chap” because no one has ever actually told them what happens when they wear short, tight clothing. In kallah classes, they are very frank with girls. Any girl who is old enough to be considered (almost)a kallah moid, should be having similar instruction in high school IMO.
Thank you.
I absolutely loved this p’shat (and it is a p’shat, because it can be interpreted literally), as well as Josh 31’s response. We also sometimes interpret the expression “neged” as alongside, (shivisi Hashem l’negdi tamid). It does not always mean opposite. The idea that it is together with learning Torah (as opposed to just being told keep Shabbos, keep kosher, be nice to people, etc)that we fully comprehend how to be mekayeim the other mitzvos properly, is a beautiful one. Yasher koach.