Forum Replies Created
Getitclear, Sariray and everyone else here who is an antivaxxer:
Thank YOU. YOU are the reason we have extinct diseases that left the world when vaccinating became a thing. Your selfishness and ignorance is appalling. Forget about the fact that rabbanim worldwide are calling against anti vaccination, your so called “emunah” in Hashem is a disgrace. (And I’m not going to cover my sarcasm here. I’m truely disappointed in you).
How dare you ask Hashem to help you or your perfectly healthy unvaccinated children, when Chas veshalom they get sick with one of these diseases. It isn’t very clear that your kids will be sick for 2 weeks with no lasting issues, you have alot of nerve to say something like that. You had an opportunity to boost your children’s immune system and you didn’t.
Dont come back at me that vaccinating causes issues and problems. I had a reaction to a vaccination and I WILL vaccinate my children. Because the odds of having a serious reaction to a vaccination is so small compared to a. The problems measles , mumps, polio, rubella, diphtheria and the list goes on causes and b. The probelms you cause by not vaccinating (spreading to people who are immunocompromised, pregnant, I’ll, too young or old etc.).
I am a registered nurse, with years of experience in health care and I simply cannot understand your points. Your emunah is exactly the same as in the joke with the man who is in a flood and a surfboard, boat and helicopter come by to save him and he says nah, Hashem will save me. And when he dies from drowning he goes to Hashem and says why didn’t you save me and Hashem says, but I sent you a surfboard, boat and helicopter and you chose not to use it.
We are NOT angels and Hashem doesn’t owe us anything if we don’t put in our hishtadlus. And to the person who wrote about cancer drugs- it is 100% relatable to vaccinating. This isn’t about already having a disease or preventing one. It’s about recognizing that Hashem has created medicine to help us and using it IS OUR HISHTADLUS. Yes question the health system all you want, they make many mistakes. But please make informed decisions. Not based on the very very very FEW verified cases of real vaccination reactions (not “well he wasn’t autistic before the vaccine and now he is after the vaccine”. That’s not scientific or informed, that’s a correlation and a story).
I’m genuinely curious: do u agree with the fact that diseases like measles, polio, rubella etc. We’re rampant and caused many issues and deaths many years ago. Then vaccines came out and the numbers dwindled. And suddenly numbers are growing with the anti vaccination movement? Like can you see this fact or no?
@jospeh: I think you missed my point. Setting up a traditional person with a yeshivish person is out of a ball park. But we often overlook potential shidduch ideas just becuase they didn’t go to the same type of yeshivas or seminarys or because their families didn’t grow up the same way. It is these boxes that are problematic. Like I said, no one would have set up my husband and I because of this reason.
@ daasyochid: Yes There is only one problem. As a health care provider we are always digging for the problem while obviously focusing on the symptoms.
The problem/ crisis: Bad attitudes, selfishness, lack of ahavas yisroel
The symptoms: jewish mothers basing their sons shidduch options based on pictures, seminaries, money etc. Girls not getting many dates because they often don’t fit categories (BT, not rich, not pretty in a picture, job is too secular etc.), pressure to do things and not say certain things (about past, family, extended family etc.) just to get a shidduch. Or to go back to your first post on this thread: Girls not getting shidduch suggestions, The over all large number of singles who wish they were married (both boys and girls), The over all large number of singles who aren’t going out, Specific characteristics or circumstances of all singles who aren’t getting shidduch suggestions, The agmas nefesh felt by all singles because they aren’t married/aren’t getting shidduch suggestions/aren’t going out
Solution: If the shidduch resume took out the high school, summer camp and sibling information and instead posted a solid blurb written by the single about their values, hashkafa, hobbies and what they are looking for in a soulmate. Take out the picture and let people decide in person if they are attracted. The rest usually irrelevant information can be found out on the dates to add to building a relationship through conversing with one another.
Solution: Stop calling girls who aren’t married by 23 old. Find love and respect for them as you would a 20 year old married girl. Don’t blame them for doing school during the past 4 years trying to pursue a career-
they dated and it didn’t work. Dating isn’t a skill, its a gift from Hashem. A girl who gets married at 19 isn’t more skilled than one who gets married at 26. We need to stop showing more respect for married young girls vs. their single counterparts, if we spread the love and repect it might help single girls feel more loved and accepted.
Solution: Telling girls they should use the picture they look skinnier in (even if they aren’t happy with how they look), because boys like skinny. That is flat out body shaming and cause real emotional and physical issues for our future jewish mothers.
Solution: Normalizing being single because crisis or no crisis there will always be singles unfortunalty. And may I add a side point. Judaism rightfully is hyperfocused on marriage as a central tenet to our lives. The pressure that girls feel is insane to to reach “the finish line”. If they don’t ake that finish line by 22 they are left out from the conversations everyone is having- shetials, babies, rings, husbands. If we make it normal to invite them over for shabbos despite the fact that we are married and have married frineds now, shows them you still care about them.
The Shidduch Crisis is simple.
The Shidduch Crisis is the attitude that people have towards singles, dating, money, hashkafa, yichus, looks etc. Think of it this way. If people weren’t so worried about their status, getting a daughter in law with rich parents, what high school their potential DIL went to, having a perfect shidduch picture and what their mother wears to the shabbos table- I think we wouldn’t have this problem. But we have a problem with girls who don’t fit boxes.
Boxes include: Bais Yaakov, Heimishe, Modern ORthodox, Baal Teshuva, Sephardi. Yes its easy to set up people who grew up the same, but lets leave the word grew up out of this. People aren’t the same as they were when they grew up nesecarily. People are complicated and fluid and grow. I know no one would have set me and my husband up because we have different background, but BH we found each other by ourselves.
You aren’t rich- you go to a whole different category. You didn’t go to a bais yaakov school- you can’t marry certain guys. You are a baal teshuva- you can’t marry an FFB. You are in secular university- you can’t marry a learning boy. You didn’t go to university but your parents aren’t wealthy- well many guys will overlook you.
Take away these boxy attitudes and what do you get? A focus on who the girl is in the point of time. I rarely see a blurb on a shidduch resume that describes who the girl and is and what she is looking for- rather her height, her summer camps and seminary and her siblings ages and jobs seem more relevant. Why? You aren’t marrying her summer camp, she could and probably is very different than she was in high school, so why does it even matter?
Lets get this straight. The shidduch crisis is an attitude problem and nothing else. If we started loving each other more instead of tearing girls down for not looking good enough in a shidduch resume picture (Rav Dovid Feinstein shlita, , “Why are we making things more difficult? There is a certain chein that young ladies have that often does not come across in a photograph, and can only be seen in person. We are making the shidduch crisis worse with these new requirements.” ) or if we thought maybe to ask why a girl is in university (maybe she wants to support her husband in kollel with a good paying job because she doesnt want to rely on her parents supporting her in this crazy expesnive world????) or maybe if we just stopped talking about 24 year old girls as “old” and threaten them that the 19 year olds are “coming home from seminary soon and if they don’t go out with this specific guy (who they shouldn’t be settling on) they will have missed the boat”.
I think its an attitude change and a little more love.
Glad to hear that!!! Yea sem was an incredible experience for me as well. It opened my eyes to so many things.
So how am I. I guess without giving away too much info- in married BH:) he’s a wonderful guy! I finished university and will be working in an amazing field.
To say that life after sem was easy! No it was actually quite eye opening. I had envisioned life to go very differently. I became more right wing in ask however I was quite rejected from that community when I came home. It took me a few years to come to that realization because I kept telling myself that these are the frummest ppl out there they r just being tznious that’s why no one talks to me or I’m disculuded. But I realized the issues were much deeper. Unfortunately u don’t live in a huge community so now I find myself distanced from that community. I am in a happy medium I guess you could say yu right wing. I’m still equally as frum but I care way less about fitting in on the outside (my hubby doesn’t wear s black hat, I stopped wearing stockings etc.) While still in the bounds of tznious. I guess I had such a sad negative experience of a lack of achdus and seeing how they viewed who I once was (modern) really turned me off. I questioned how I wanted to raise my kids, because the truth is I don’t want then to be too modern but I don’t want them to be so focused on wearing s black hat that they do all these non frum things behind closed doors. I didn’t think it was fair to raise my family in a community that made me question Judaism and loving other Jews. Because maybe my parents are NO but they taught me that loving other Jews isn’t really a choice, it should be automatically engrained. And the hatred and superiority u encounterd was too much to handle that I almost went completely off.
To end off this I just wanna tell you that in the coming years, I hope you solidify and truly find yourself. And don’t be afraid to talk to others about your feelings. Find a mentor that was huge for me.
Also easy and meaningful rest of your fast!!!
I am so glad you reached out! It’s nice to know how your actions help others and you can never truly know the difference you made unless That person tells you!!
How was sem!? What are your plans for the future- do you plan on working, going to get a degree etc.
My best advice to you as your bringing yourself back down from the spiritual high of sem- stay strong in your love for Hashem and Torah, learn to stay humble and remember to love and respect everyone around you no matter their hashkafa, age or gender and don’t let the pressures of society and the Jewish community push you down- your bashers is out there and you will slowly find your path!
Super proud of you and can’t wait to hear more about your life!!!!
Also taom and streek- how’s it going old friends!!!
I am a nurse and had to take all these courses!
A & P is an incredible class! Torah is so evident with regards to the human body. When we learn about how our eye functions and how light refracts off the lens and hits cells in the back of our eye that flip the picture and send the message along nerves (routes) to our brain, it doesn’t get more clear than this that Hashem must have created us. The human body is so intricate and looking at it from a health care perspective it is incredible that not more people get sick!
Orgo is a hard class, that is a fact. This is mainly due to the memorization aspect of it. However if you are motivated, pay attention in class, work hard, study and pick up a good work ethic you can do anything!
So yea, you can find Hashem and Torah in anything you do as long as you are always out searching for Hashem. Hatzalacha!
No I understood his message: he wants to know if it a tznious thing for a frum jewish person, who looks jewish (wearing tzitzis, kippa etc), to be on a TV show.
I simply dont understand why this is something he is bringing up. Who cares if they go onto TV. None of the people described above did anything to make a chilul hashem. If they don’t care seeing girls dressed innaproprtialy thats their problem, not ours. If you watched it, you would see that if was simply people expressing their talent to the world. Their intentions and meaning behind it is irrelevant.
You want to discuss a problematic group that would give jews a bad name and make chilul hashem, talk about neturai karta.
My point is that were all being so frum saying that these people shouldnt be on TV because its not tznoius, not frum or whatever. Meanwhile we all have our struggles, including this guy who clearly needs to start pointing fingers at others struggles and including me and you. So why can’t we simply say after seeing something like that “baruch hashem they didn’t do anything that would give Hashem a bad name, thank God I don’t feel the sruggle of wanting to or needing to be in the spotlight of the world being exposed to certain innapropriate things. I wish them the best.” Smile at the fact that those two boys who if anything are showing the world that Jews can still be Jews even if they join worldy things. Not everyone can do that or wants to do that.
the person who started the thread.
You know what I find ironic, that you even started a thread about this in the first place.
You worry about other Jews being on TV and while I am sure you didn’t watch it (cuz chas veshalom you should watch TV) apparently you knew about it, which means that you, someone you know or somewhere you work you picked up on this. Which apparently makes you just as bad as them if your considering TV so horrible, cuz you are even considering talking about goyish topics such as TV shows.
So please, stop fussing about what others are doing that doesn’t meet your frum standards. No one else is you. No one is as frum as you or will ever be. Focus on yourself before you go start trying to get others to bad mouth other jews.
Am yisroel would be better off if we turned our pointed fingers at ourselves and said where am I going wrong…
The queen- i never said date for a year, so shkoyach to you for making a grand statement. I never said dating longer was the only solution. I stressed communication is super important. Having a shadchan as the in between doesn’t help this and by the time the couple is ready to get married, all important conversation revolves that and then the wedding and then the first baby. Where is the couples relationship? if the only purpose of marriage was to have children then why isn’t everyone having kids until the woman can’t anymore and then divorcing? Because marriage is so much more than the wedding and the kids. It is also about a healthy bond between the parents.
And this bond should not have to wait til after marriage to grow. Young men and women should get the proper communication experiance before. And furthermore, they must not be pressured! this was a huge point a stressed. The pressure on girls is major and they are treated like cattle in this experiance of shidduchim. It’s no wonder the divorce rate is high.
I’m probably about to get really attacked but honestly divorce could be something we hear less and less about if the way people date changes. There should not be pressure to get engaged after just a few meetings. There should be opportunity for the couple to get to know each other in a more natural way without a shadchan in between being the communication. It isn’t fair to put all this pressure on young people who still haven’t fully matured to recognize the struggles of marriage. So many of them are just obsessing about the idea of marriage, vs. what it actually means. I know many many girls who just envy the next girl who gets engaged because it has become a “phenomenon”, and boys are so “scarce and limited” that girls will just take the first guy they get because they think no one else will come around for them. Who is putting these ideas into their head? Since when does this refelct our emunah in Hashem? This is a man made problem that must be fixed.
People don’t realize that marriage doesn’t solve problems, it takes on someone else problems. And learning to work these kinds of things out before they even get ENGAGED (yes shock, they should date for longer/ talk more outside of their 4 hour dates) they would have just a little bit more knowledge into how marriage to this person will be.
Maybe rabbis don’t trust these couples to stay shomer, but frankly, they will have to be shomer for half their lives anyways. And if we can’t trust them with this, then how can we trust them to go into a marriage and have children which both of these need a lot of maturity and responsibility.
Please don’t attack me…this is just a thought.
DaMoshe- Wow, I was just going to post something similar. I left last year and came back hoping it would be refreshing and new, but it is the same old, same old. Its sad because your posts were so rationale and gave an emesdig point of view. I come from that background, and although I am not as much like that anymore, I look up to the MO rabbis as Torah giants and learn from them everyday people around me.
I am going to miss you, as well I am going to miss some very thoughtful posters (Goq included). But truth be told, the CR has brought out a sad side to me. I literally get depressed reading some of the posts, and I cannot bear the pain anymore.
Thank you for your time CR. Thank you for all your insight. I hope you all true love among one another, not splintered love. True love.
Mw13- no your right that was hateful.
STOP IT WITH THESE THREADS. you want to really start this mishugas now? When we need to step up and unite? Are we really so deeply divided that even during hard times we can’t just put our differences aside for 2 seconds to just be together? The world is so backwards!
Mods close this down please!!!!!!! Enough!!
“Had the Zionists never invaded E”Y, meaning over a century ago (not just in 1948), there would have been no need for an IDF (and there would have not been the Chevron Massacre in the 1920s, et al.), which is what the holy Chazon Ish told the first Zionist Prime Minister, as I mentioned above.
Now that the reality is that the Zionists have invaded E”Y and clearly are powerless to protect their citizens as, unfortunately, is quite evident from not only recent news reports but going all the way back to 1948 and before, it seems we need a miracle to resolve this. But davening for the Zionists is still 1000% wrong; we daven that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and sound, however HE chooses to do so.”
Please go tell that to my dear grandparents who suffered through the Holocaust, watched their parents get shot in front of their face, watch their siblings burn up into flames and have everything striped away from them.
Go tell my Zaide that “invading E’Y” was the wrong thing to do, because he frankly had no where else to go. Go tell him that “there is no need for an IDF”, or people with guns to protect people living their daily lives, LEARNING TORAH, living TORAH. Because guess what Hakatan, if HE had a choice in 1939, he would have run straight behind the IDF in his beloved E’Y for protection. But he didn’t have that choice. Today we have that choice- like it or hate it with every ounce of you.
If you are going to slander zionism again in your next post, please just refrain from writing. I don’t care what your stances are, I care that you are caring, but you aren’t. You come from such a close minded place that I can be positive it didn’t even occur to you to think about how offensive the way your talking is.
MY bubby and zadie didn’t survive to see people like YOU exist. And my zadie is the most upright Jew you have ever met. His emunah is 30000000x greater than ALL of us put together. He walks around daily with a smile on his face, teaching others to have faith in Hashem, he has spoken to thousands of CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS and of course jews. Why? Because their differences DO NOT MATTER. He wants to spread LOVE. LOVE. LOVE.
You want to spread angst against a FELLOW JEW. How DARE you? Were 6 million precious beloved Jewish deaths not enough for you? I don’t feel your love towards me, that you “claim”. I feel uncomfortable and if we were talking face to face I would literaly be staring at you in shock. And its very possible my hashkafa totally matches yours. Its possible I believe the Jewish state is avoda zara too. But it’s totally ireelevant, because the way your talking trumps all. Your words are hateful, and if you don’t see it that way, I AM TELLING YOU THEY R HURTFUL. You pick from every rabbi the way they slander other Jews. Start looking at the positives man. Start seeing the beauty in other people, and learn from everyone. Other rabbis have amazing things to say and can be gedolim too, just because they are not your hashkafa.
Hakatan- my question was what is your personal connection to MO? What have been your personal interactions with MO people? What actual knowledge are you talking about?
Fortunatly yes they are following the same Torah. The torah was no only given to Yeshivish people Hakatan. It was given to all Jews. The “true Torah world” is a completly subjective statement. Just because someone is Zionistic doesn’t make them not a Torah Jew. It makes them zionistic lol.
And please “the Jews, are doing so solely for the welfare of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and having nothing to do with the State of Israel.”
If you are in Israel, you are living intrinsically with it. You buy food from there and give to the economy, you are being protected by Israels army. If you get funding, you are taking state money. They are quite intrinsically related.
“(whom the Zionists carelessly rile up after they carelessly invaded and stirred up all this trouble to begin with”
The way you talk about zionism puts zionism before the Jew. You are throwing your brothers and sisters under the bus. You sound no better than neturai karta. Frankly I respect the fact that you have a strong stance for whatever you respect, but if someone non jewish heard you say that they would think you have zero love for “the zionists”. And because I am trying not to be judgemental of you, I understand you were taught a certain way, I understand you genuinly feel this way about zionism. I get it. But you for some reason aren’t getting me.
Ha katan- have you ever been to an MO institution? Did you grow up MO? What is your personal exposure?
And side note- when I say respect and accept the other, I’m not saying you cannot disagree, of course you can. But the way you talk on here is disagreeing with an ugly tone. With a tone that looks down upon them. That is what I am referring to. It’s saying that you are a Torah Jew and they aren’t. That’s not disagreeing that’s putting them down. They aren’t doing kefira- they literally follow the same Torah you do. If your sad about how influenced they are by society then daven for them, don’t say that they aren’t being frum. Get your minds around the fact that every person is different. What you see on the outside might not truley reflect the inside. So please please PLEASE stop calling people names (ronald9) don’t call out your own brother on not being frum. If t was your own biological brother you would hopefully embrace them no matter what hashkafa they hold.
I always try to stay neutral, and stick up for the weaker side, or at least give perspective to those who don’t see it from the other side.
But I am quite fed up.
I am not modern orthodox. But I can proudly say that I genuinely love modern orthodox people. I became right wing after growing up modern orthodox, and at a point I would have considered myself chareidi. I used to stand in my MO shul and hiss at the “taf” instead of “saf”. I used to look at the people around me who didn’t follow halacha up to standard, whether they know its right or not (that is irrelevant and not for me to judge).
But I tapped into this part of me that tried to love them, but still secretly hated them. And I unlike of most of you (unless you come from the same background as me) have the right to hate it, because I came from it and left it. I realized that my whole reason of becoming more machmir, more aware of Halacha was to be a better Jew, but in the route of doing that I realized there was just this notion going around my “new crowd” that MO people weren’t frum. And it started to get to me. Because they ARE frum.
And so I started to deviate a little bit away from the chareidim, and now I stand here without a title. Why? So I can love everyone, because that is Hashem’s greatest Midda. And not to overgeneralize, because I respect and admire everyone here, but many of you, while trying to be impartial and say “I’m not saying the MO people who follow Halacha”, or “The ones who just learned blindly in their institutions” or “Zionism is pasul.”
It is irrelevent.
What they do, no offence, is irrelevent to you. You say it’s relevant because you care that they aren’t following the Torah. Maybe not to your standards, but to their standards they are. Until you go into an MO institution with unbiased eyes and tell me their shuls don’t have the same good (learning, daf yomi, minyanim, shiurim) and bad things (talking) as yours do, you should not be saying anything. If you TRUELY cared that they weren’t following Torah to your standard, you wouldn’t be typing it here and telling your children how false they are. You would embrace them, do “kiruv” the same way you would to someone who TRUEly isn’t frum. Maybe you all do that too, and shkoyach to those who do. But it seems as though you look down on MO community, which is totally wrong. You can say it’s not sinas chinam, but when you think about it, you are putting your serving Hashem as better than someone elses. That is most definitly not what we should be doing, even if we are 100% right.
And trust me I know a lot of people in the MO community who don’t love you guys too, who think you are too closed minded to appreciate that they are frum too. But the reason I voice myself to you is because I hold you guys to a higher standard. I would hope to see pure love. But I don’t. I see you all making loop holes why you can’t accept them. Acceptance doesn’t mean become them. Hopefully your strong enough to be yourself no matter what situation your placed in (if you aren’t, that’s fine, but you don’t have a right to put them down).
I hope mods let this through, I genuinly hope whoever reads this can think about what they are actually saying. I turned away from your true hashkafa only because of this exact one point: you* aren’t accepting and loving.
*you doesn’t mean everyone, I would just rather not point fingers. I know it isn’t everyone, and I even have respect for those that do talk like that- because they love Hashem so much they are willing to sacrafice everything for Hashem. I just think others feelings must be taken into account.
yekke- thank you for your post! i truly admire your point of view, and the clarity that you see in your yiddishkeit. I appreciate your post. If you are interested, please continue reading my response to the other poster, as it pertains to some of the things you touched upon.
neutriquam- thank you as well. I understand your position, however my point wasn’t to say that you should accept what they do as truth. Maybe what they are doing isn’t right or isnt what your rabbi told you, or how you were raised. It is literally about simply accepting them. If we all accepted the fact that every person serves hashem in their own way, which doesnt mean bend my standards, it means I will stil be me, but I will choose to love that person simply because they r a jew. I will show my children that we could still be sthe way we are, and its beauitufl, but I am going to expose my children to other types of people, to make my children less judgemental and more loving of others. And when they ask “Why don’t we do what they do?”, you are there to answer their questions. Children get healthy and emesdik answers this way. Versus being sheltered and not knowing, then finding out from other sources and sometimes going off your derech. I am not saying that you should bend yourself to accomodate others. On the contrary, embrace the for who they are despite being so different from you, and love them because Hashem created them as a fellow Jew.
I am going to end with a story. I worked with a family who had a sick child and they arent religious. I went into their home every week in my tznious clothes, bringing them kosher food to the hospital and never imposing myself on them. Not once did I think “Hey, these people are so wrong. They go out to non-kosher restuarant, they dont keep shabbos etc. On the contrary, I came, loved and embraced them for who they were and over time started having an impact on them without even imposing myself. They started asking questions about shabbos, about friday night, about holidays. I sent them to speak to rabbis. They started to keep friday night dinners. I never looked at their short comings. I always focused on what they were doing, cuz exactly like yekke said, their tafkid isnt nessicairly to be frum.
neutiquam- I appreciate you holding back and not judging, because yes there is a lot to jduge. But if you dont know enough then out of fairness to the inocent reader who doesnt know anything about them, I would hope we would all want to shed light on what they ARE and not what they aren’t. I would hope we would promote loving them, versus hating their shortcoming. Not everyone was as priviledged to grow up in a home surounding Torah. In all sincereity, I live at home with a modern orthodox family. As modern as true modern orothodox gets. My mom doesnt cover her hair (wears a hat to shul), they dont follow the same standards of tznious as you might and they watch TV, go to movies etc. But they care about and love the Torah. Torah is spoken at my shabbos table, my dad davens three times a day and goes to weekly shiurim. My family has total respect for all rabbis, not just the modox ones they follow, and they r huge in hachnasas orchim, chessed and creating learning programs for people of all ages and genders.
now I am talking to the klal, not just you neutiqram. It is difficult for me to understand the people who post here without putting themselves in the shoes of someone who is modox. They dont bend for Torah. A real true modern orthodox jew doesnt bend for Torah. They dont work on shabbos, they keep halacha and they typically cover their hair. They learn torah and live torah. Values are stressed alot more in other areas, but that does not mean they are bending torah rules to make the modern world fit into their lives. Im sure my family would be extremly hurt if I showed them some of your posts…
neuitquamerro- “which can get very problematic”. That statement is problematic. judging the way another jew proactice their relgion and connection to hashem is not for you to call problematic.
square root 2- I grew up modern and shifted to the right, although i dont think I qualify as charedi either as my open minded views from my upbringing are still with me. Modern orthodoxy is different than charedi, or yeshivish hashkafa because of the things that it stresses. If you look at the high school I went to, israel was a huge stress. not eretz yisroel, medinat yisroel. I learned about zionism and about rabbis who began the modern orthodox movement. We learned Torah, navi, halacha, we did learn gemara. Moden orthodoxy just has a more open view on the world, pushing its members to interact with the world around them, but not for the sake of “going off the derech”, rather their view is to use your skills as a frum jew and be or lagoyim. Yes, there has been alot of skewing, a lack of tznious and that comes with going over a slippery slope. This is why charedis try to cut it out completly, or as much as they can. They do not want to get to that slippery slope. chareidim keep their lives revolved around Torah.
The problem of this conversation is that because chareidim r protrayed as the ones who live revovling around Torah, which is emes, and its beautiful, MO people get looked upon as not frum which is so wrong.
It is important to keep into perspective that they r just as much frum as you are, and you can label anyone you want, they simply serve hashem in a different way than you, and thats ok. Everyone serves hashem differently, there is NO problem. If someone has a problem then they should be working on their ahavas yisroel a little more…
Mazel tov Im engaged!!
I respect the Jews who take opportunites to respect other Jews despite their differences in Hashkafic and Halachic view. Sometimes reading the CR makes me very sad, but reading this thread has drawn a new perspective to me.
I think pessimistic and realistic don’t have to be the same thing. You can most defiantly be optimistic and realistic. Having emunah in HaShem, but realizing you still need to input your hishtadlus is a possible outlook. Just saying…
I just saw your post now and went back to find my post cuz I’m shocked that I would ever write that. I couldn’t find the post that compares the two but if I did ever compare them, my intentions were the extreme zionists. I grew up in a zionistic community, school, home etc. if anyone can understand you, it’s me. If I was not referring to the extreme people in my post that you found, I’m referring simply to the fact that in my community, which is quite large, even moderate zionists (not all) will bash chareidim and their views. Which not going into, but I understand, cuz lots of chareidim do the same. What bothers me is that people think it gives them a right to just hate another Jew just because they view Israel in a different light. That’s not what God wants from us. I, unlike a lot of people here am able to see the perspective of a typical religious Zionist. I say the tefila for the soldiers. I am on here to hopefully show people that just cuz your Zionist doesn’t mean your not frum. And I may not be as zionistic as you, I still respect you, and respect why you have chosen to view Israel the way you do.
Health- maybe in the Jewish world the two are by the same, but to any goy you ask they are the same. Some pro Palestinian university campus groups use “anti Zionism/ anti Israel approaches” but the real meaning behind these movements is a hatred for Jews at the core. You don’t hear the president of Iran yelling only ” death to Israel” he’s also yelling “death to the Jews”. If we as Jews cannot see this then we are troubled. They view is as one nation and its time for each f us to start doing the same. You can be an anti Zionist and have a brother who is in the army. You were born to the same mother by you just see the world through a different light. This doesn’t mean that you should disown him. So to the hundreds of thousands of people who are different than you.
joseph- it’s a totally fair point, and I think everything you think is completly valid. BTW I do not suggest university is for everyone, and if you can afford/get scholarships to Turro and the sort, then by all means you’ll be paying for jewish education on top of your degree.
But, like you said I am not coming out on the same madreigah I went in. I am coming out a more solidified frum girl, who is learning to navigate the system I will BH encounter everyday when I am working. I plan on being in a hospital one day, and I am learning how to maintain my frummkeit while still being able to work at a job I am good at. I don’t feel as though learning physiology and biology are kfira being stuffed into my head. Philosophy courses are a different conversation. But honestly, don’t make such general statements if you aren’t directly invovled. I would hope you would have more faith in people like me, who aren’t going because they want to be in that environment. They are going so they can support their families and the kolleim and schools in their communites.
syag- got your back 😉
kj- if i said yes, would you stop responding to me?
joseph- are you speaking from experiance?
popa- I have one response.
You are right. and you are wrong. It isn’t the way it is. It doesn’t have to be the way it is. That’s my point to all my posts. Life is not black and white. We have the Torah and Hashem and thats about where it stops being so clear cut. Its clear that life isn’t supposed to be so simple- look at all the machlokes that occurs in the gemara. look at how our Gedolim are working around modern day challenges, dealing with raw Halacha and seeing how it fits.
I am not the way it is. I go to secular collage, with many bais yaakov girls (believe it or not) and I spoke with them and they told me that the system did not prepare them for university, but that their parents simply could not afford to support them, and they wanted them to go to unviersity. BH we have a good group, lots of shiurim and ways to connect back to homebase (as well we don’t live on campus).
But seriously, how do we stay frum?
Opposite to your beliefs, we don’t let what they say penetrate our being- why? Because thats who we are. We are Baruch Hashem strong in our convictions and connection to Hashem, Torah and Halacha. We can be put in any enviornment and know how to be ourselves while still respecting the people around us. We learn and study the material, e take the tests and we move on. We get our degree and we go and make a parnassa for our families. Some of us who cannot afford/ parents wont help support our families forever need to do this type of thing.
No offence to everyone- if we’re building kids who are not equipped to be in any situation and still be themselves I think we will have failed as trying to pass on Judaism. If they cannot deal properly with being with their own other fellow Jews- let alone go out into the goyish world, that’s simply sad.
Spiritual death is only likely you produce a child who can be penetrated easily.
KJ- it’s so sad that “change” means you would have hoped I would alienate my own family and community that I grew up in. Be honest with yourself- would me moving over to the right then completely shunning everyone do anything good? Would it bring the geulah faster? Why does change have to mean I’m a hateful person?
That’s a gross ideology. like I said before- where they burn objects they will burn people. I’d advise you to STOP wishing for the death and demise of your fellow Jews. If you really are as “riteous ” as a chassid should be, then I would think your very close to hashem. And if you are, then he will take what you ask for very seriously. If this is the case then you will have A TON of Jewish blood on your hands.
Please don’t write back to me some close minded immature comments anymore. If you aren’t a going to be open to that fact that you might be wrong (SHOCK) then there is no room for growth within you. By all means keep your hashkafa, be anti Zionist, daven for an Eretz yisreol run by Jewish law and hahsems governance- but take a lesson from POPA BAR ABBA- learn to love a fellow Jew DESPITE your differences. And stop hoping that they all burn down to the ground. Cuz let’s be real- they aren’t leaving, they believe what they believe, they will continue to educate their children that the army is the way to go and especially with people like YOU who are the reason why I would turn away from even thinking about taking on a chassidish lifestyle ( and during my growth process I fell in love with so many chassidish traditions I never knew about). But it would be someone like you that would make me reconsider.
You seem like a learned person, but your close minded ignorant and hateful stances are hurtful to me and they r destructive to klal yisreol as a whole.
Redbyidd- thank you
KJ- no. I’m saying stop outwardly hating other Jews- just because they aren’t you. You want to know why I take it so personally? Because I was raised and went to school in a place that only only endorsed Zionism. And I know lots of frum people who are zionistic and they keep the Torah and the mitzvos and r very machmir. Whether in your eyes it is avoda Zara or not, should stop being the issue. They will never know that it isn’t because they will always be in that system- just as you will always be in your system.
But then that’s the problem- where does this cycle end?
So is burning flags really the right option? Maybe for ISIS and people who outwardly want to show the world they have no other care. But from a Jew to a Jew- really? If you have such an issue with it then go back inside yeshiva and learn. Stop wasting ur time hating and spend more time working on yourself.
KJ- “Were burning an israeli flag here by yeshiva”
Don’t feel so haughty about hating other Jews so much… Your actions of burning are no better than what the Nazi’s did in the 1930’s, and what the Palestinians do today.
akuperma- “Sooner or later the Islamic world will get its act together, and the zionist dream will go up in smoke.”
you know what is so crazy, you think zionism and judaism are so seperate that you are willing to hope for the destruction of your own brothers and sisters? YOU might not be zionistic, I might not be zionistic, but you sound no worse than the “Israeli apartheid studnet group” at my school. They claim they are “antiJewish” only anti “israel”. in reality, its clear they simply hate Jews, as when they chant it is death to Jews, and spit on the Jews.
If Chas Veshalom the world falls to islamic terror, then you can bet you will be caught up in it too. Your children could not be learning in yeshivos in eretz yisroel without the
Start learning to accept them for who they are. If you had a brother who in your eyes was off the derech, would you hope that he died? would you cut him off? someone with a frum outlook as you should surley know that the first thing to do is embrace them. It should be no different with your other “brothers and sisters”.
PBA- just wanted to let you know how refreshing and respectful that was. I’m impressed by the way you are accepting of people who are not like you, but still Firm on your hashkafa. If my kids grow up to express themselves the way just did- that being a respectful person but strong in their hashkafa, I will know they were raised just right.
writersoul- so beautifully written! Exactly, if we can find the leshaim shomayim in all we do that is the ideal!
Here’s what I don’t understand- why is the BY/ charedi system building young men and women who are not equipt to withstand going out into the secular world. Unless you are going to be a rebbe, teacher or secretary, you will likely come upon goyim (OMG ***shock***) in your lifetime. In the hospital, in the grocery store on an airplane. Yes I agree- university isn’t for everyone, but why is the system built so that university is so demonized. If you are a strong person in your hashkafa, you go to university letachlis of getting the education needed to make a normal parnassa which is sustainable for this day and age, why is it so looked down upon. Wouldn’t you rather be producing strong children who can tackle the world no matter if they r more inside the bubble or less?
I go to secular university with tons of other frum frum girls. I always say how university has solidified me to be even frummer than when I can in. Why? Because the contrast is so drastic, and BH being very firm and strong in my Torah beliefs, seeing the shtus that goes on around me just makes shabbos that much more meaningful. And it makes the shiurim I go to that much more important.
Hakatan- “While the classes and campuses are indeed separate, the events, etc. are all mixed. So, practically speaking, other than the actual classes, “Yeshiva”/Stern is essentially a co-ed experience.”
Where do you get your information from. I wish you would just pause and try to look at it from a different perspective. No one will deny you that zionism is a major tenet of MO, no one will deny you that their value of Torah is different than yours. I know all you are trying to do is stand up for the torah, and stand up for what is right, but unfortunatly that isnt the way it works in this world. If someone in my community read what you wrote today they would be disgusted and turned off from any yeshvish way of life. Anything right wing to them. Is that right of them? Yes and no. Yes because that compeltly offeneds their entire way of life and No because they say things about “right wingers” that are completly offensive toom, which is disgusting. Were all at fault here.
But someone has to stop the chain. And I would HOPE it would be someone whose whole focus is Torah, like you come off as, because thats what the Torah wants! Ahava between brothers and sisters in Judaism.
YU and Stern in your mind is very naive. I’ve been there. I have friends there who never go to coed events. Yes there are lots of people who are not relgious, in fact there are lots of flaws in the system. But look at what your stirring because of your ignorant comments! I have faith in your beliefs. You seem to be a very passionate and smart individual. Please please use it for drawing the “other” in instead of alientating them because of their “avodah zara”.
Hakatan- thank you for your explanation. I hope you understand my point tho- coming from that background and bH finding my way to a more halachic and torah focused lifestyle, I’m truley able to see the flaws in it. But still living among people with that lifestyle and truley just trying to love them despite the fact that as you said they might my emphasize Torah as others do, is truley eye opening. It is true, I would love to see the world more focused on torah, but to be honest I can only set myself as an example in my community, I cannt change anyone. And that means the onus is on me to show them being halachic and Toradig is meaningful and not burnsome. It also means that I must show them I still can love and respect them despite our differences.
Sorry for my extra rant- I appreciate your apology and I’m sorry that I thought that was your intension
Hakatan and SAM2- your essentially fighting a never ending battle.
Sometimes I nod my head when I read these threads. It really is a terrible Sinah and drift that has occured between two Jewish groups who both consider themselves relgious while they emphasize certain things.
Hakatan- I hate to say it, but your not being fair. Forget about this convo with Sam, because I came from an MO background. I know EXACTLY what you mean when you say it over emphasizes zionism. Sometimes I felt zionism was more important to them than teaching halacha. No one every taught tznious to us, we just knew we had to wear skirts and shirts that came semi close to the elbow- but the ramifications were not important. I always loved Judaism, I just felt like it was ok, I’m Jeiwsh now let me go on with my life. So in essence your correct, there is a lack of flame there (and I am being general because I know extremly different ends of the “MO spectrum- including very frum people and people who r basically conservative, minus the driving on shabbos).
Now my question for you- how do you take that information?
“And does it really matter what aveiros some people do in the name of MO? Are you asking me to “bash” them?”
Thats what you said. That is a hurtful statement. People who grow up MO don’t know any different. They are connected, they keep Shabbos and they go to schools where tanach is taught. In a world where the Jewish people are diminishing each year, why would you even say such thoughtless statements like that. Why would you even consider bashing them? Why is that a thought that comes to mind?
When a tradgedy happens in the world, everyone rushes to find a finger to point and blame. It must be that people aren’t tznious enough, it must be that people listen to non Jewish music etc. And while I am sure they aren’t wrong, pointing fingers gets us no where. NO WHERE.
You must promote a sense of pointing the finger at yourself. Becuase what if a tradgedy happened because you refused to help that person across the street, or didn’t open up your door to someone who asked for money, or refused to have that family over for Shabbos.I’m not sitting here and saying you are the reason for disasters in the world, I don’t know you. You sound like a pretty level headed person, and you sound open to hearing others, whcih is commendable to you. But your attitude on the MO community is a destrcutive one, not prooductive.
What if it was your bad deeds that you simply cant see? Thats how I look at it. I say it was my bad deeds, how can I be a better person. Hashem didn’t create any person perfectly. There is always room for imporvment.
Hakatan- “However, the MO “movement”, is, by definition and in plain fact, influenced by outside sources.”
Please describe to me these “outside sources” you talk about. Growing up in the MO world it is easy to say I agree with you that Modern Orthodoxy is quite immersed in the outside world, but again like someone said above, to varying degrees. Some are more, some less.
JLIC I will have you know is NOT conservative. That is the Hillel movement. JLIC brings minyanim to campus, there are beis medrashim with mechitzas for minyanim and tables for boys to learn between classes. JLIC allows people to come to campus and go to a shiur to infuse their day with Torah.
In the working world, where people work all day to make a parnassa, they might not be able to learn all day. they might not be able to live of their parents for the rest of their lives. They need to learn how to infuse Torah into their days because it won’t be fed to them on a silver platter. JLIC gives frum jews that opportunity.
its my hebrew birthday for another hour…who wants a bracha!!!
nfgo- to be honest I don’t think this is a matter of sharing new information. It is a matter of showing that when someone threatens the Jewish epople, he won’t sit still and watch us get destroyed. He did his hishtadlus..
Like Guiliani said so beautifully “if somepone threatened to detroy New York, I would go anywhere in the world to defend it..”
To be honest, I was so proud ot be a Jew listening to his speech. (Sorry KJ chisud) Yes he is secular, yes there might be scandels attached to him. But aren’t there scandels attached to each of us. Its so easy for us to jump on him and attack, when honestly the words coming out of his mouth were Emes, words from Hashem. Finnaly someone who has the guts to stand up and say “we the Jewish people wil not stand for this, and we will do it even if we are standing alone.”
I am sorry if I have offended people with the way I view it. I respect the way you view it to, as to each their own. But I personally feel pride in someone walking before one of the supposivly strongest nations in the free world, talking Torah and standing up for me, a Jew in Galus.
FFBBT- I am so happy for you that you have come to these conclsuions yourself in your own time. I am inspirsed by you and your growth experiance. As someone who is a little older than you, but in a similar position (with parents who are more modern etc) I respect all the challenges you are going through. Keep strong and remember that everything you have done to get to the point you are at now is incredible and Hashem is so proud of you. Even though it seems as though you are going through a lot of hard times all at once, I know they will all iron out. It always does!
Thank you for the update and a freilichin purim to you! keep inspiring others around you!
Where is ourtorah?? Who has taken over my lovely name??
how come i wasnt changed 🙁 I wanna be someone!!