philosopher

Up until the last year or two I also had this mentality that everyone should do what they want if regarding simchos, if they can afford it. But then I realized how immoral behavior have seeped into the the secular society just by being exposed to this behavior on a constant basis, and it has been accepted as normal by a vast percentage of Americans. Because that’s how people are, what people are exposed to constantly affects their thought and behavior. This is with everything even with weddings.

Takanos are not a new thing that evolved in the last few years. There were many takanos throughout the centuries, chasunah takanos, burial takanos ( every generation with their meshugassen…) and other simcha takanas. I believe it was the Vilna Gaon, or another big Rav in that time, who who made chasunah takanos.

Klugeryid, thanks.

denvy, as funny as your comment was, I think that there are always openings in special education because besides for kids who really need it, even kids who wouldn’t need special Ed in an optimal educational system, today every kid is forced into a mold that requires them to need the services of special Ed just to keep up (and chugging along…) until they are fee of the prison called school.. There’s barely any time for free play and sports and creative kids are overloaded with memorization and boredom instead of having subjects taught that they can excel in like music and drama (real subjects in the secular world. Whats the need to know French history for example?! Who cares that what’s her name (I forgot) told the peasents to eat cake…it’s irrelevant. Teach these kids education that matters to them .

Our educational system creates kids that need special Ed so the field may be saturated, but not oversaturated.

And social work, well with everyone having to be treated for all kinds of disorders, ocd, odd, add, ADHD, xyz…practically everyone needs some help from the goyishe psychology that helped produce such a wonderful society of drug addicts, depressed people, gender “change” krankeit, kid teenage pregnancy…we need these hashkofos in our communities so that we can help everyone with their issues that was cooked up by these same people.

anonymous Jew, certainly people would like to mind their own business and ideally should mind their own business. But life is not black and white. What do you do when you have teenage girls who don’t want to look and feel poor by using a wedding dress repeatedly? I know a parent has to be able to say no regardless but it still creates tension. And then there are women who put pressure on their husbands by buying these dresses at every simcha, especially when the dresses cost a few thousand dollars to rent, all because nobody wears a gown twice.

There are people who do their own thing and don’t care what people think, myself included, I couldn’t care less what people do and think. But I’m sorry to say most people don’t want to do differently that what others do, it makes them feel uncomfortable. And that very often causes strain because most people don’t even have the money to cover these expensive and extraneous expenses.

Syag, yesterday I told klugeryid I will not be replying to his questions again that we jumped on Joseph for nothing because I realized I was bashing Joseph for days more than my original condemning of this behavior. I originally jumped in when klugeryid kept on bashing you for criticizing Joseph as I felt it was me who really did that. Then I continously explained to him why. But with my continuous “explanations” all I did was bash Jospeh more which made me feel even worse for calling him out- I don’t feel good about bashing anybody and I feel bad about over one remark especially I made to Joseph. I can’t decide if I called out a bully or I’m the bully…but by me continuously stating why I did it, all I’m doing is repeating my bashing…

Non Political, I totally agree with you especially with what you said “Whether or not Agadata dictates Halacha they are part of our Heilig Torah and we have an obligation to understand them in line with the intent of the Ba’alei Mesorah. Something being an Agadeta is not a license to disregard it or to interpet it as one sees fit.”

That is why it’s so important to bring Rabbinical sources to support our views. But sometimes we have interesting opinions like yours about Devorah Hanoviah that you have no Rabbinical sources, that is only your viewpoint which but it has logical merit. You can say our views should be based on the intent of the baalei mesorah…that is the point that I’m trying to make. Trying to bring only sources that seem to paint women in a negative or inferior light is not what our Rabbis are trying to say as they also point to the chashivas of women as well. What they are saying is people, as men and women and as individuals we have our strengths and weakness.

Non Political, ok maybe I did not see what others are seeing…I don’t know. I also don’t remember her having a feminist rant. My mind is stuffed at this point and I can’t go back to reread the posts again but I’m don’t remember a feminist rant by Bruriah.

As for the teitch, it is true that one cannot learn pshat from an English translation – the translation is just for us to understand the context but maybe the reverence was missing in the post..I was just so excited to see the verse within context as opposed to being thrown around.

I do see our half baked peshatim may be more than half baked. I think your opinion on this issue regarding Devorah Hanoviah is compelling.

And I have also come upon two sources that said Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said that nd”k means that women are more subject to persuasion due to being more emotional as I have suspected and posted that I believe that’s what nd”k means. I think women are more emotional because they are nurturers and get more emotionally involved with people and therefore they may not be neutral in poskening halacha.

Non Political, But why would we argue what ndk means for all women halachically or even only as a Chazal’s description of us if we are talking about an agadata that never has a practical application? As far as I know, agadatas never dictate halacha or define a reality.

Klugeryid, as I have repeatedly said, it’s not the Chazal or the Ramban he quoted but the intent behind it. When a person is obsessed with finding verses and quoting it out of context so that it loses it’s original meaning, or neglecting meforshim that explain the meaning, or simply quoting verses without knowing the meaning but just trying to continuously to prove a point that other people are inferior THAT is the problem. If a person tries to understand a Chazal or a verse or a meforesh that seems to put down women or men or whatever and he posts that so that people can share their thoughts on the matter then that’s fine. But to do that over and over again against specific individuals is a mean obsession.

I have said mine and that’s that. I hope you understand and if not it’s also nisht geferlich but I won’t try to explain again.

klugeryid, I’m trying not to get into the personal attack mentality but I could see why I become like that with certain people…You cannot quote out of context Torah verses to prove your own points to denigrate others. It’s against the Torah, it’s a transgression of numerous halachos of adam lachveiro and it’s sheker. If you cannot understand this simple concept then your posting name is your own opinion and not a fact.

klugeryid, you are not sure what his point was but i an others as well are not stupid. His comments don’t bother you because they are not directed at you and don’t try to prove a point about you. Would it be about you you wouldn’t be so passive about Joseph’s commentS.

Mod-29 did you just jump to a conclusion? 😉
I was thinking he meant a different inane opening post.

Klugeryid, b’kitzer you sided with Joseph even when you had no clue as to the source and context of this particular Chazal but you agreed with his opinion just so that “these liberal women can be put in place…”

It’s becoming increasingly clear to me that the men supporting Joseph don’t always know the source and certainly not the context of his assertions. It’s just easier to say that women protesting this constant put-down are liberals. How convenient.

CA, ok, but what do you want to prove, that because the nevius were women they were not tzeddeikas on very high spritiual levels?

Wow, Bruriah, amazing thanks for clearing that up!

And thanks for proving my point that there’s so much in the Torah and Torah sources proving the weakness of men and were anyone to keep harping on this issue just to try to “prove” that men are inferior it would freak anyone out- why is it ok to do so to women on a continuous basis noch dertzi when we don’t learn Gemorah and other Rabbinical sources so we don’t even have the proper answers?

klugeryid, I didn’t want to go into it as I did ask mechila from Joseph for going at him personally, but I want to point out that if you want to put on your blinders- that’s your decision. We will not be attacked continously about our supposed “inferiority” . If there would be a woman on this thread continously harping for years, hiding behind Torah sources of course, on the inferiority of men, there would also be a time where people would say enough. Opening a thread with the very words “I’m not sure why this makes people uncomfortable…” when Chazal’s words makes no frum person uncomfortable so why would he say that except to deliver his next punch of the Rambam on our “inferiority”. Enough is enough. You wouldn’t want me combing through Torah sources for months and years finding sources on the weakness of men. There is a minimum of respect and decency required – topics can be discussed with intellectual honest and not with an agenda behind it.

I’m not upset at myself for attacking his sick position only it bothers me that I projected two sentences about my opinion of his personal life. Otherwise I have no charata on what I said.

Joseph, I missed your post and only realized it today, where you say you didn’t post about women and bears… sorry I forgot your exact comment, but you posted that “Women are easily frightened…” in the news article about the black bear in Forshay… as if men would stand around waiting to greet a black bear…what was your point?

Now you bought a Rambam that women can’t learn effectively. There are many rerferences in the Torah, in the Talmud, meforshim and seforim about men in a negative sense as well. I don’t see the point in combing through myriads of sources to bring up what they say about men…

Nd”k in my opinion,( and there are many meanings including the one Bruriah talked about, as everything in the Torah has many facets) means that since women are more emotional than men, feeling more empathy with others as opposed to men who are not so emotionally involved with other people, it may have an influence on halachik outcomes so women should not be poskim and dayanim.

Nobody feels uncomfortable with this Chazal as your first comment stated- we feel uncomfortable with what you are trying to imply.

akuperma, I’m not saying I would ever use a Shabbos elevator, but I fail to understand the difference between that and a lighting fixture set on with Shabbos clock, a refrigerator set to Shabbos mode, and an oven set to Shabbos mode with food taken out during Shabbos…The electricity on and off in all of these cases are set before Shabbos…

I mistakenly pressed a button on my phone while typing my previous message which cleared the message box so I hope my unfinished comment wasn’t submitted by mistake. If it was then this message may be a repeat of my previous one…

Although it feels like personal attacks against me and noshem tzedkunius in general especially because it is so often that we are tried to be proven inferior and I see these comments almost every time I read the threads in the coffee room and sometimes in the news as well, I shouldn’t have taken Joseph’s comments so personally and I feel bad that I attacked him in a personal manner.

Joseph, I hope you will forgive my personal attacks on you (and I also hope you will try to not “prove” constantly that women are inferior…)

Non Political, your comments are well said and emes.

CA, So Shloime Hemelech found one only good man out of 1,000?! That doesn’t show us that men are generally better than women…If Shloime Hamelech thought women were so bad he wouldn’t have 700 wives and 300 concubines.

Coffee addict, I don’t remember where I’ve read it, but this is attributed to a tzaddik whom I’ve forgotten his name, who said that women have less mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual plane.

Regardless where that comes from, I have never read or heard ANY frum person saying that women are better than men, it is just an explanation why women have less mitzvos.

I’m not sure about the Mishpacha article as I’ve not read it, but I highly doubt that they insinuated that women are better than men.

As individuals, male or female , and as a people, we all have strengths and weakness and we were all created with those characteristics so that we can fulfill our potential. We are not better one over the other except for what we make of ourselves. Tzaddikim are higher than simple people because of what they have acheived. That has no bearing to the fact that men are not greater than women or vice versa.

Nobody has a problem with people digging up interesting or relevant old threads. It’s when digging up old threads in addition to bringing up topics continously for years to try to prove the inferiority of a large segment of klal Yisreol and even if it would be only one frum Jew… kol shekein the mothers of our entire nation! A little respect is in order but trying constantly to prove our inferiority through Tanach, Gemara, meforshim, is absolutely disgusting and nausciating.

Joseph, we like every single Chazal. We frum women are not trying to become dayanim and poskim, we are happy the way we are, with the daas we we’re created with and for the purpose we were created for. What we don’t like is YOUR continuous interpretations of Chazal and other Torah sources that denigrate women. For me personally, as someone who has suffered from controlling individuals, this type of weird obsession of yours of how superior men are to women shows something much deeper – it shows that you disrespect and try to cheapen women. It is worrisome if you have a wife or daughters. Some have pointed out that it is doubtful that there exists women in your life…
Either way, continuously talking in a denigrating way regarding women ( like only women are scared of bears…remember this recent moiredige comment of yours?) is senseless sinas chinum that serves no purpose. Today is the day to remember that the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinum and by you trying to hide your sinas chinum behind Torah sources is particularly offensive. Sinas chinum’s only purpose is for individuals to feel superior that they are more chushev than “inferior” individuals. And usually this krum mentality involves mental, physical and/or emotional abuse of others when it is within the power of the superior feeling individual to do so.

This topic of what “daton kalos” means and what the halachic ramications are is actually an interesting one. Since it’s Tisha BaAv I won’t go into the topic itself. The only bothersome thing with topics like these is when one has an agenda behind these threads. There are people who ask “where is Hashem?” And there are people who ask “where is Hashem?” People can have the same questions but what their intentions are behind the questions and behind bringing up topics can be very different.

Bruriah, don’t take Joseph, or anyone attacking your response to Joseph, too seriously. Halachic discussion, my foot. Joseph loves “proving” how inferior women are. Do you know anyone searching very old threads and bringing them back to life? Only someone obsessed with a topic can do that. And answering someone with passion will make you as a woman, a “weak emotional woman” but many men can argue pretty passionately and immaturely, but that’s ok since they are men…

Anyway, whatever. It doesn’t matter, one can argue and bring proofs of what “kalos” means, but I take the way Hashem created me with utmost happiness, with the good and the bad, and wouldn’t want to be a male. Thank you Hashem for creating me according to your will!