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The Gemara says that those who can withstand an insult and not insult back bring Geulah to the world. However, that probably does not apply in such a case where by not showing the other girls that they are hurting you they will continue to be Over on many Aveiros D’Oraisa (Lashon Harah, Ona’as D’varim, and more). If I were in your shoes, I would respond that while your brother may currently be OTD in Bein Adam LaMakom, they are just as OTD in Bein Adam L’Chaveiro.
Why is this thread open? It can’t lead to any good.
Loyal Jew: That’s a cute way to read the Issur, but it’s just not true. Chukas Hagoyim is a Machlokes Rishonim (and Poskim) whether or not it applies to things that Goyim do as a matter of course or whether it has to be based in religion. I believe we Pasken that it has to be based in religion, or at least for the sake of being ostentatious. (See Yoreh Deah 177, I believe, with the Nosei Keilim and especially the Gra in S”K 1 and 3, if I recall correctly.) As I mentioned above, maybe royal sports like tennis and polo could fall under this category. Maybe.
Darchei Ha’emori means superstitious practices that are based in Avodah Zarah (or at least Kishuf). It has nothing to do with “secular goyish ways”. See the Gemara in Shabbos 67a going over to 67b and Chullin 77b going over to 78a, if I recall correctly. Also see the Tshuvas Harashba. (I don’t remember what Siman but the numbers 1:181 and 1:187 stick out in my mind. It could be anywhere though; those Simanim are probably other things.) Your “explanation” of Darchei Ha’emori is so far off that it would be a violation of Bal Tosif according to the Rambam if a Beis Din would Pasken that way.
Loyal Jew: Please explain to us what Darchei Ha’emori means and how sports fall under that.
Ders: Other than Shabbos, please name one. (I’ll give you that. I don’t know “so many” though.)
Loyal Jew: No sports are Darchei Ha’emori and very few are Bechukoseihem (though for royal sports like tennis and polo I can hear a Tayna of Bechukoseihem). You might want to learn what those actually mean before you say what falls under them.
Sam4: I meant that too, but I thought it’s brought in a Tosfos somewhere. I’ve been searching all day but can’t find it though, so maybe you’re right.
Yatzmich: I heard that R’ Ovadia Yosef approved the deal.
CA: I’m sorry I missed your post 3 months ago. The Mechaber (in the uncensored editions) says B’feirush that a cross is Avodah Zarah. The Rema there doesn’t disagree, which he should (because it’s in O.C. 114, I think; and while the Rema often relies on us knowing what he Paskened earlier, he very rarely relies on what he will Pasken later). And the Meiri’s Shittah on Avodah Zarah is so Mechudash that I highly doubt any Posek would ever even use him as a Snif Lehakel, even in an extreme Sha’as Had’chak.
I don’t remember. The idea is brought down in the Sh’arim Metzuyanim B’halachah.
Sam4: Interesting. He also mentions the stepping over a baby thing that was discussed on here a while back.
Patri: Chas V’shalom. I said that Tosfos calls it an Isur D’Oraisa of Darchei Ha’emori.
Harotzeh: Chas V’shalom to say that someone who missed a day has no Mitzvah anymore. We just don’t make a Bracha to respect the opinion of the Bahag. It’s because of statements like yours that some Poskim nowadays say that one should count with a Bracha even if he misses a day-because if you tell someone not to make a Bracha he’ll think there’s no Mitzvah and won’t count at all.
Avhaben: You mean R’ Chaim said it for the Hamon Am in B’nei B’rak where one who would be Davening without a hat would have a tremendous lack of Kavod Hatzibbur.
PBA: I understand what you’re saying. My point was that that attitude is called for here because of the circumstances where that P’sk came from in this case. (That’s what I meant by understanding each case-that in this case specifically there is a ton of wriggle room because of the background of the P’sak. I very clearly stated that I wasn’t doing that in general-only in very, very specific situations.)
There was a very good article in Ami magazine a while back about when and how the Minhagim of going to Meron started. Even if this Segulah isn’t a real one, all it entails is giving Tzedaka. There’s nothing wrong or Assur with that.
Giving Tedaka is always a good Segulah.
PBA: As was I. A woman not making a Bracha is just as based on the Bahag as a man who missed/will miss not making a Bracha is.
Yitay: That autopsy piece is absolutely Ayom V’nora. It’s one of my favorite pieces of Torah anywhere, ever. I don’t think anyone would ever Pasken it L’ma’aseh, though, even if the Ben Ish Chai said it. I think I’ve brought it down in the CR before, haven’t I?
PBA: It could be because we’re working with a slightly different assumption coming in here. You are assuming that there is a real Safek B’rachos because it’s a Machlokes Rishonim and therefore we should be Machmir without additional support. I hold like Rav Schachter that the reason we’re Machmir on not counting with a Bracha anymore is to respect the Shittah of the Bahag. (Rav Schachter points out that there are several cases where the Bahag is a complete Da’as Yachid but we still are Choshesh for his opinion in the Shulchan Aruch. This is because the Bahag had his own Mesorah from the Savoraim and Amoraim so even though his Shittah is against our Shas and our P’sak, we still treat it with respect.) Since that’s the reason we’re Machmir here, any Tziruf of a another Shittah is enough to allow you to make a Bracha (which is part of the reason the P’sak I grew up with and was told that what is accepted by most is not like that Sha’arei T’shuvah above). Thus, this is a case where finding Kulos to allow one to make the Bracha is perfectly called for. Does that make sense? Does that explain why we’re coming at this from different angles?
Ders: I don’t know what you mean by that. If you give a specific example I’ll try and explain what I hold though.
PBA: Did my explanation make sense? I hope you don’t think that I routinely argue on earlier Poskim and T’shuvos and such based on S’varos or my own understand of Rishonim. I mean, I do, but only in learning. Almost never in L’ma’aseh P’sak.
Yitay: My favorite. See the Ben Yehoyada there.
Write or wrong: If it’s a fight that you can’t win, then it’s better to let some things go for the time being and worry about keeping in connected in ways that he’s still interested in.
PBA: Of course not. I am self-aware enough to know what I know and there are very few cases where I am confident enough to argue on Poskim like that. I would almost never Pasken like this without running it by someone far more knowledgeable that myself to begin with. Here, I don’t have the burden of P’sak on me so I can learn how I think the Emes is without being scared of being wrong. I think my entire explanation here was Amittah Shel Torah. Would I be confident enough in that to Pasken like it if asked an actual Shaila? I can’t honestly say that until I’m asked L’ma’aseh, but this may be one of the very few (and honestly, there are very few) cases where I’m confident in what I know to Pasken like this. (Of course, I’m always more confident in my Shittos until I need to actually Pasken. Paskening is quite a scary thing, that’s for sure.)
PBA: I don’t quite know how to explain this (in detail). It’s just something that you see from each individual case. This is clearly a case where the Posek saw a problem. Namely, that women, even though the SH”A says they count, often mess up and end up having Chashash Brachos Levatalos. Because normative Halachah in this case says that women can count with a Brachah. We found a reason why they shouldn’t because there is a concern. However, it took a combination of two reasons to justify them not making a Brachah for that concern. (And this concern is irrelevant anyway according to the many Poskim who hold not like that Sha’arei T’shuvah.) When one of those reasons goes away, it stands to reason that (in this case, at least) she can count with a Brachah. Obscurity of the source doesn’t matter in learning it, but it does make it easier to go against in regards to Stimas Divrei Sha’ar Haposkim. It’s very, very tough to go against, say, a Magen Avraham’s or a Taz’s Chumra even if the rest of the Achronim are Mashma from Stimas Divreihim Lehakel. It’s easier to say that against less often-quoted sources.
PBA: It doesn’t make sense. S’fira is a Minhag where the SH”A B’feirush says that women have accepted upon themselves to do. The M”B quotes a Mechudash’dik Shittah (from one of his more obscure sources; he doesn’t quote that SHU”T very often on other things) that combines two reasons to say women shouldn’t make a Brachah. Not having one of them apply should be enough for a woman to count with a Bracha. Here, where often times neither will apply, how can you tell someone they can’t make a Brachah?
The Mishnah B’rurah mentions that a woman has a Chiyuv to Daven with a Minyan just like a man does.
PBA: According to that Mishnah B’rurah for sure. Why would it be any different than the mass of Halachic literature on the guy who will be in surgery/crossing the dateline/other Onsin etc.? Those are the cases where the Posek talks about a guy who will for sure miss. An absentminded person who misses Minyan sometimes and has never made it through Sfira in his life would be the exact same.
PBA: There is no good reason to be Mechalek. I think, according to that, if a man knows he’ll mess up he shouldn’t count with a Bracha either. The Mishnah B’rurah just assumed that most men don’t mess up. Also, the number of women who knew Hebrew (or how to count) were very few and far between in that time. If I held like that Sha’arei T’shuvah we quoted above I would tell a man who knows he’ll mess up not to count with a B’racha.
Ders: Kastner made a deal with Eichmann. He saved over 1500 Jews by hiding that report. No one knows what would have happened if he had publicized things and not gotten that train full of Jews out. Maybe more would have lived; maybe more would have died. But to just make a blanket statement that he was “in cahoots with Eichmann” is Motzi Shem Ra.
And one Zionist doing such a thing doesn’t make the whole Holocaust the Zionists’ fault. Nor does it even say anything about any other Zionist. Can I call all Chareidim murderers if I can find one Chareidi in history who ever committed murder?
PBA: The Mishnah B’rurah clearly states a two-part reason. The second, which for sure doesn’t apply today, is that women don’t know how to count in Hebrew (although I’m not sure why they couldn’t count in the vernacular). The first reason is that there is a Vada’us that they will mess up, (at least partially) aided by this fact that they don’t know how to count in Hebrew. We see many, many women nowadays who make it through (with calendars, etc.) and many are even more Makpid than the men to remind them to count (if they Davened Ma’ariv early and such). If a woman wants to listen to that M”B, she has that R’shus, but the reasons pretty clearly don’t apply to most women.
Mermaid: By minors I obviously meant a minor Al Pi Halachah (under 12-and-a-half), not 18.
Ders: Motzi Shem Ra about a dead person is a serious offense. Actually learn what Kastner did and next time present what he did wrong (if anything) in an honest way.
Mermaid: I think it’s even accepted by Frum Jews that Bizman Hazeh marrying a minor is wrong.
PBA: I just said I could see someone making the Ta’ana. I agree it wouldn’t work.
PBA: That’s the way I’ve always learned it. I can’t say you’re wrong if you’re Machmir on this because there are Tzdadim L’hachmir, but the Tzdadim L’hakel are pretty overwhelming.
And I see your point about feminists wanting to do something not making it a Minhag. But I feel like there were always some women who counted with a Bracha and that since the reason for the M”B’s Minhag doesn’t really apply to most women nowadays, it’s very hard to be Moche a woman who wants to do a Mitzvah (especially because of the strange Lashon in one Rishon-I think it might be the Rosh-that the Bracha of S’firah is actually part of the Mitzvah), and certainly one like S’firas Ha’omer where there’s nothing public and she’s not rubbing it in anyone’s face.
Mermaid: In a generation where it’s accepted practice (and in some circumstances better for everyone involved) then there’s no Rish’us in it. In a generation where such a person would be labeled a pedophile and a disgusting person, there certainly is Rish’us in it.
PBA: I could see someone trying to Ta’ana that since it’s not legal and since you need to make a Kinyan to be Mekadesh, then Dina D’Malchusa would be Mafkia the Kiddushin.
PBA: I’m aware of that Sha’arei T’shuvah. I was always taught that we hold L’ma’aseh that a Kattan and a Ger count with a Bracha.
(I recently saw a T’shuvah, though I forget where, about someone who was going to cross the date line and would miss a day, what he should do. I didn’t get to the end though, because someone asked me an actual Shaila while I was in the middle of it.)
Oomis: A Minhag to only give Hebrew names? That’s one that I’ve never heard before. Not to do English, sure. But only Hebrew? I’ve never heard anyone Makpid on that before. (Just curious, would you name a child Mordechai or Ester?)
That meant to say “if she had done”. Obviously it’s too late for that now.
Zees: You miss the point of those Chumros though. Chazal weren’t searching out Chumros to constantly make people more Machmir, which is what R”L, a small portion of the community does now. Chazal added Takanos and G’zeiros when they saw that people were having trouble keeping to the D’Oraisas without additional Harchakos.
Oh, and if you eat Afikomen before Chatzos it’s to be Choshesh for a Shittah that Chatzos is D’Oraisa (R’ Elazar Ben Azaryah), not because of the first Mishnah in Brachos.
If it were up to me, I’d say she’s okay. The reason a S’fek S’feka works for S’fira is not because it’s an actual S’fek S’feka. If it was, then we wouldn’t be able to use it because we don’t say a S”S by making Brachos. Instead, the only reason we’re Machmir if you miss a whole day is to respect the Shittah of the Bahag, even though he’s a Da’as Yachid in this. However, since he’s a Da’as Yachid we let you continue to count with a Bracha whenever there is any second Tzad to say you can continue counting. (And I would certainly say that if she does the Eitzah mentioned in a few Rishonim (well, maybe it’s only mentioned in the Chinuch) on the next night to have said “Yesterday was X and today s X+1”, then without any doubt at all she’s okay.
And about the women not counting, that depends on what the Minhag is where, especially because the reason given in the Mishnah B’rurah probably doesn’t apply to a lot of women nowadays.
PBA: Don’t be silly. Hello99 is clearly the CR Masmich.
Yitay: The coolest intro I’ve ever seen a Chassan and Kallah come out to was the intro to “Eye of the Tiger”.
147: That is never for us as human beings to judge.
Syag: There is a Sam4 here (Sam4321, I think), who seems to be a much better Mareh Mekomos person than I am.
Frumnotyeshivish: It’s a Mefurash Tosfos that wearing a red string is Darchei Emori. Segulos work. That’s fine. But only the right ones do. The others are Assur.
I saw today that the Nodah Bihudah uses the phrase “S’varos K’reisiyos” in O.C. 1:35.
I don’t like this thread. I don’t do anything other than quote the Mishnah B’rurah or provide other Mekoros.