Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I’m with coffee on this one. And the fact that some of you are brushing this off without being disturbed by the sheker and geneivas daas issues is both horrifying to me and says a lot about how you live your lives.
thank you feivel, for saving me the trouble.
CT-I’m also not fond of overcooked mush made of cheap cuts of meat and lots of starch, but I love cholent. Feel free to eat it or not eat it, feel free to use different ingredients, but why do you insist on being so offensive in your wording? It is not just unnecessary but rude as well.
zd – these places have to be condemned because they appear to be following halacha. If you don’t condemn them, then they look like a frum choice among the many choices. You are correct that we have to keep focused on why we are condemning and make sure our message isn’t lost. We have to make sure it is always clear that we are not mudslinging for fun but rather to defend Hashem and his TOrah, but you are incorrect about the live-and-let-live idea. Giving them space without speaking out on where and why they are wrong is dangerous because it gives legitimacy. We just have to tweak our methods because we are harming ourselves in our mission.
DY- I don’t do links. i think anyone with a scroll button can figure it out. and once again you are “strongly disagreeing” with me about something i never said so once again, i will leave you to your spins and bow out.
He was commenting on the attitude he believes it conveys. Just read the post he wrote before mine that wasn’t up when I posted. I disagree with him that the rabbis shouldn’t speak out, but he is right about now it ends up perceived and we need to stop pretending we are all so altruistic in our responses. If you are not conveying defense of Hashem’s Torah on your words than you haven’t accomplished anything.
swaying the leadership was DY’s take, not ZD’s. ZD can correct me if I am mistaken but the context of permitting the leitzanus was to keep people away from their crazy newfangled hashkofos and I understood ZD (and others?) to be saying that our tone in this leitzanus is going to push people away from US and not deter them from OO. If we want to attract the potential FOLLOWERS to authentic Judaism, we would need to find a more productive way to do so. By slinging manure we attract noone. There needs to be more to the “bashing” that includes explanation for those who don’t understand, and an obvious defending of Torah and disgust for the desecration of it. If you think you can just post leitzanus (as is permitted) without MAKING THE POINT OF SUPPORTING TORAH, then you are just excusing yourself for bad behavior.
And one step further, By not worrying about how we present ourselves, perhaps we are misrepresenting Hashem’s Torah to those masses who are so vulnerable.
No objection, they are the ones who need to put those things in writing for us.
ouch. I was thinking about how some of them are looking for spirituality and find the mashichist kind, possibly leaving them in a worse place halachically then they were before they started.
I have a cousin who had a day school background but lives a secular life. She married someone with no exposure who was craving religion. He loved learning new things and had great questions. He ended up finding “kaballa”, the madonna kind, and is over his head in it. It provides him with the spirituality and false connection to Gd without making you change any of your lifestyle. What a horrible loss. And he sincerely believes he has turned his life around and made Hashem his focus, r”l.
Mammele – are they losing them to other frum streams? Or do you mean the people they bring in have negative influence on the young kids?
it isn’t a moshol or nimshal, it is an adage. And it explains what different people here are stating, that whether or not someone is right, degrading individuals, making fun of them and ridiculing them is not going to accomplish the things that are being claimed to be so crucial.
It will NOT wake people up to their faulty ways,
it will not make people think the other way is correct,
it will not do much but turn people away from those with the Torah derech because it is demonstrating lack of middos instead of demonstrating defense of Torah.
If the point of degrading the apikorsim is to deter people from respecting/heeding them, then the posters here are doing a lousy job of it. It needs to be done with intelligent words that will convey a love for Hashem and disgust at the attempt to destroy His Torah. Nothing resembling that is what is being demonstrated here.
well i don’t know if anyone but me noticed but JOSEPH RESPONDED TO MY POST BEFORE IT WENT UP!
When I read the kol korei, I do not see the condemnation of people that you, zahavasdad, and others seem to see.
I, personally, was not referencing the kol korei but rather all the writing style of the threads and posts written about the people in YCT, OO etc.
Furthermore, zahavadad’s point which you repeated (they are just following their leaders) seems to provides the best justification for issuing such a kol korei.
yes, that’s true. But the question was about whether or not they should be given the same treatment as the individuals who are actually developing and disseminating this hashkofo. it wasn’t actually my question, i was trying to reiterate his, but it is a notable point. it is just not without an answer.
don’t think you missed a thing.
if you are talking about individuals who call themselves rabbis but aren’t, than you are not talking about the same thing.
neville – MDG says it really well, it isn’t the condemnation of the movement that is being complained about. It is the condemnation of the individuals in the movement. ZD is saying that if many of them are just following their Rabbis, as we are all instructed to do, then why is it right to deal so harshly with them on an individual level ie, inclusion in minyan.
Avram – thank you!
and following your illustrative example:
tuna > sushi > morning sickness for 4 months > gefilte fish
ZD – you are correct in theory, and I understand completely what you are saying. Those behaviors do not feel right at all and seem to go against everything we are taught. The line has to be drawn, tho, at letting people who are actively making changes to halacha and claiming it acceptable. If someone is degrading the torah, it is my understanding that they CANNOT be included in a minyan. You are welcome to invite them to dinner, to a shiur, feel free to be in an exercise class with them and display love for them as humans. You are obligated, however, to be clear that you will not support their damaging hashkafos.
This is very different from how you treat someone with a different hashkofo, this is about someone who is actively bringing a breach to orthodox judaism.
If you take it out of the context of judaism, it may be easier to understand. There is a huge difference between respecting a person created in Hashem’s image even tho he believes differently than you, and respecting someone who is encouraging people to go against Hashem’s Torah. I only agree that there should be more evidence of Lshem Shamayim and cause to go along with it.
ZD – i have to disagree with you here. whether or not they are ignoring big issues, this is more than a big issue. when people present themselves as frum, learned people, and then start making changes and adjustments to halacha it is very, very dangerous for us. When someone not affiliated accepts gay marriage, it does not influence your thought or action. But when this movement appears to be following halacha and they start accepting things that are NOT sanctioned by halacha it needs to be denounced as it can lead people astray. Which we even see by the support here.
I think this issue is one of the biggest problems i have had with the CR since i began. I heard so many awful comments about rabbis and jews without having a clue why it would be acceptable to do so. Someone finally explained to me the concept i just summarized above and i understood just from my own response how easy it is to validate people who are corroding halacha. Unfortunately, the people doing the “pushing away” are not always careful about giving over the L’shem Shamayim-ness of their words and there is no doubt their message is largely lost among those people who they think they may be protecting.
Witnessing mud slinging by yeshivish people at OO leaders just looks like a fulfillment of a stereotype. It would be helpful and much more productive as a defense of halacha if it was expressed that way, denounced in relation to the concepts being supported and with less letzanus and more pride for genuine halacha.
I am sure those who do it will have a hundred sources to support their style, but I think it is doing damage to those who wish to preserve the dignity of Torah and it’s supporters.
i love that book
Oh thank you, how nice to be thought of that way because i really think i am upbeat. i try to be introspective as well, and that question came up as we were making our first wedding so the nostalgia was intense.
this month the answer to that question would be, i would go back to a time when women spent the day barefoot in the kitchen and kids didn’t have homework. what would I change there? whatever needed to be changed to stop it from evolving.
always! [especially early November ;)]
I was so time challenged today i couldnt figure out what time it was. i checked the clock and realized I was 20 minutes late for picking up my kids. Then I realized I was really 40 minutes early. anyone else out there mess up today because of a clock that wasn’t turned back? (somehow i doubt it)
does anyone have oomis’s number? I’m sure she won’t want to miss this…
Hi!
you said you never heard this before, but you want to know why many girls have this opinion?
If you asked someone of a different hashkofo to go out with him, why should she say yes? If you ask a cc girl about a lakewood boy, she may also say no. not sure what the question is.
his agenda
Joseph tzodek
you lost me on that one
wolf – sure you do, you just didn’t realize it because none of them said “hi”
Joseph – regardles of whether or not it’s true, what’s your source for that? I figured you as someone who’s never left brooklyn.
awesome observation popa
Gosh, if I could stay home I would be more than happy to do all that. except the make-up. And my husband has always done as much in return, including making me coffee every morning (to be yotzei the mitzvah of chessed before davening). Not all those specific things, but the ones that were relevent.
Now I just try to make sure he has a parking space because that is probably the biggest chessed one can do around here.
to keep their husbands from reading it?
why? what did you do with all your copies?
some random things that popped into my head as things to avoid include: habitually pointing out/correcting other’s mistakes, clarifying people’s posts as if everyone might need the help tho you didn’t, calling people out by bringing old posts that contradict present ones…
…he said with all the objectivity of a lemming
it isn’t feasibly possible for you to be objective about this or any other societal or cultural norm that yeshivish people do so it’s a dumb conversation. Youre the one who has given me with hurtful and rude labels for thinking things thru instead of doing whatever everyone else does. Somehow you think of it as anti frum. Which it isn’t. Not everything frum people do is frum. Sometimes its new york. sometimes its the shtetl. And sometimes its just dumb.
sure, sure, even if the parents are breaking from the burden, magia lahem. And of course nobody is doing it for social reasons. Perish the thought.
(Save your ink, I can just reference an old thread. Or two. Or fifty)
Joseph – I didn’t get a diamond, I got a saphire. just like the luchos, and affordable.
So this very expensive cycle of narishkeit should never be broken?
Yes, like supporting married children >_<
I’m expecting a lot of rejection. I won’t pay for a dira, won’t pay for alcohol at the weddings, won’t promise monthly support. with all those stipulations you’d almost think marrying a talmid chochom isn’t important to me.
who wouldn’t be concerned about rejection? How much rejection can someone experience before it hurts? and either way, the OP sounded like she was more concerned about showing a lack of bitachon than rejection.
what mammele said
it wasn’t about a post, it was about an exchange. one that is really hard to miss, actually.
well said, Mr. Goq, well said. I have said as much before as well but, alas, it falls on deaf ears.
EEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!
i do agree with golfer completely (and your grandson sounds delicious – like meatloaf but not gefilte fish).
but having said that…..
come on guys. you are overdoing it just a bit. I would never tell someone their food is gross, i would never tell someone they are wrong for liking certain foods but there is nothing wrong with stating on an internet forum that you don’t like a certain food or think it’s gross. considering all the nasty things people say about others beliefs, lifestyle, hashkofos, clothing etc. why are you offended that someone hates cholent?
shopping – i honestly believe that if you think you would chose a seminary based on internet access, the best thing you can do for yourself in regard to growth is find a place that would be good for you, period. and learn to live a year without internet access for a year. you are too young to be making choices for those types of reasons.
wow, a neturei karta wannabe!
don’t flatter yourself, i googled the screenname
i dont need to convince him that i am not something. and i was asking rebyidd because i am sure s/he hadnt a clue what s/he was commenting on.
til this line gave you away:
If your husband doesn’t want you to wear makeup, you shouldn’t.
you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him change his spots!
(me using phrases as you use them)