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Gamanit:
If I had a dollar for every time a mechanech blamed parents for all the kids at risk and OTD issues, I could get myself and several other people out of debt. It is a blatant lie. There are good parents, there are bad parents, and there are parents who tried to do a good job but lacked the skills for a child who had different needs. Even Avrohom Avinu succeeded with only one out of 8, and Yitzchok Avinu with 1 out of 2! It is high time for the community and all those involved in chinuch to accept responsibility for the role of the yeshivos and schools. There is gross failure to meet the needs of talmidim who do not conform, whether by providing or accessing services, or by having individual attention for each and every talmid. It is pikuach nefesh for so many, and is the exception to the rule. How many menahalim of mosdos that have more than 100 students can greet every single one by name? I am not blaming yeshivos for all the problems. I am simply stating with full conviction that the defense of diverting responsibility away from yeshivos is irresponsible and blatantly false. We are all in this together, and we all share a collective responsibility to insure that every boy or girl has a yeshiva, school, program, and all needed services. If we fail to accomplish this, we will ch”v continue to watch every family lose some to the welcoming arms of the yetzer horah, the filthy streets, and the tangle of the web.
Torah613Torah:
One of my mottoes is that blame is a banned word. I have no issue with looking at factors that contribute to a problem and addressing them for change. In the situation of an individual OTD youngster, I am more interested in mobilizing the parents and others to work along with the kid as there are efforts to help him/her succeed in pursuing realistic and healthy goals. It is not about finger pointing. Inasmuch as the subject was raised in the direction of grouping all OTD kids into a single unit, I was pointing out that the adults in the lives of the children are the ones who form the child’s experience of living with authority figures that create the structures of rules and limits. That set of experiences, in turn, is the greatest contributor to the healthy development of a connection and relationship to a spiritual G-d. When we see fraying at the edges of Yiddishkeit, it is reflective of weak development of this side of life, and “the problem is us”. I am not blaming parents or mechanchim any more than I blame every adult in the community. We all contribute in some way to the development of every child, even one not biologically our own, or a talmid.
If the question, by virtue of grouping OTD kids together, is what can the community do to change, we must address how we, as authority figures, relate to children. Again, the most common theme to ALL kids with these issues is REJECTION. It comes in many flavors, and often is accompanied by a stack of justifications that are tantamount to “The surgery was successful, but the patient died.” Well, I am focused on the result. The success of chinuch is not that which is measured by a bechinah or the memorization of text, be it Chumash, Tehilim, Mishnayos, or Gemora. It is the implementation of Torah values in the context of everyday life, in which there is more than rote and robotic performance of mitzvos, but rather a sense of dveikus in HKB”H, with whatever level of Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem is achievable. Now, we should ask, do we, as parents and mechanchim succeed at transmitting these to our children? If not, what can we do to correct this?
Gamanit:
Can you share your experience with kids at risk? I won’t present details about mine, but my exposure to KAR is extreme, with many, many hundreds having been connected to me. In addition, I work closely with many others who have worked with this population for years, and this is the conclusion we have all reached. There is a small statistical minority who are simply looking for the thrill of the moment. But the overwhelming majority are Kids in Pain, who are escaping from themselves. To call them Victims of Abuse would be dramatic, but would be true.
Let’s face a painful fact. The primary reason behind nearly every single case of OTD is REJECTION. This can exist in many versions. The obvious ones are the expulsions from yeshiva or school. But there are countless others. There are those who have been degraded and shamed, whether by parents, rebbes/teachers/menahalim, other adult figures. Included here are many presentations of inappropriate discipline. Some have been victims of bullies. Still some have limitations in areas such as learning skills, reading, social skills, and other areas of psychological functining. With many situations involving considerable difficulty in helping the children to compensate for these limitations, the child can be knocked for his/her handicap. Yes, teachers and rebbeim have a poor track record when it comes to withholding negative comments from talmidim. Parents are also guilty of doing this to their children.
So we are not only guilty of failing to provide the welcoming to a life of Ahavas Hashem, but we have also shamed them enough for them to choose to rebel. OTD kids are the victims. The adults in their lives are the perpetrators.
One additional thought. Parents are not perfect. Neither are mechanchim. However, the demands made on mechanchim by Chazal hold then to a higher standard. Here are a few examples:
????? ????? ???????
??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????
If some of the above comments are an attempt at humor, the effort was futile. If they were meant with any degree of seriousness, some people need a lot of help, perhaps as much as the OTD kids.
It is true that lumping OTD situations together is often unjustified and uninformative. What it does tell us is that our community has lost the strength to hold onto its youth and that the problem starts with the adults in their lives. And don’t bore me with the ridiculous, usually untruthful line about dysfunctional families. It’s sometimes true, but very, very often it is not.
We, as a community, have failed our children, and miserably at that. We do not meet their needs at home, school or yeshiva, or in the community sanctioned social environments. We are confirmed failures at transmitting the values of Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas HaTorah. We have excelled in creating environments that force compliance and conformity. The talmid that is difficult is discarded. Some yeshivos lack the resources, and all lack the funds. But also seriously lacking is the concern to insure that every talmid can find success. This is a product of the times. It was comparatively uncommon 25 years ago, and is still less frequent out of town.
Here’s the litmus test. How much effort is invested by a yeshiva that rejects an applicant or refuses to permit a talmid(oh) to continue in their school? How many alumni maintain contact with their rebbeim and teachers long after they left? These two examples of approach are elements that have become nearly obsolete. That’s where our children are, and that is the only reason to think about OTD as a single issue.
I am shocked that some here, and our own president, are hesitating to call this terror. According to all definitions of terror I could find, it is without a doubt a terror attack. Whether to blame Islamists varies on one’s love of them or the subscribing to their values. Perhaps, we have become conditioned to equating terror with Islam. That’s not an indication of racism or Islamophobia – it’s what Islam generated by its behavior for the past many decades. And if our president doesn’t see that, then he once again proves he lacks the intellect and value system to serve as our leader.
The country looks to Obama’s words to determine if he is being presidential. If we were a bit smarter, we would examine his actions. And that is yet to be determined. I don’t trust him, but he has not personally asked to borrow money from me.
DY:
Your fear about negative influences has a point of merit, but is also a source of grave danger. I do not want my child exposed to many of the decadent influences of today’s world. However, not every kid that slips into most of these traps brings them to peers to dendanger them. It is widely believed, for instance, that a kid that begins dabbling in drugs is a rodef. This is sometimes true. But many times, it is not. The child needs treatment for a disease, not punishment for a crime. Many drug users want their addiction to remain hidden, and they withhold it from their peers like they hide it from others. Meanwhile, there is an absolute chiyuv to ascertain the “rodef” status before committing the spiritual murder of throwing this kid into the welcoming arms of the street.
Yes, kids who are exposed have a greater yetzer horah. Does this sentence anyone who knows the kid? You are correct that any exposure is major exposure. But this does not necessarily expose others. This needs to be determined on a case-by-case basis, not by policy.
DY:
You seem to imply that yeshivos have the advice of a gadol that supports their exclusionary admission policies. I challenge you. Is there any way you could prove that? I have been able to question menahalim and menahalos many times, and there has never been a single instance in which any of the admission policies were set or endorsed by a single gadol. Rather, the attitude is, “This yeshiva is mine, and I will restrict it to whomever I wish. The flavor of my yeshiva is set according to my own personal preferences.” Perhaps such an attitude is legal (or halachically tolerable) but one may justly question whether it fulfills the ratzon Hashem of making Torah education available to all our youth.
Whenever I see a gadol questioned about these exclusionary policies, I always find their responses in the negative. Do you have other experience? The video of Rav Shteinman shlit”a is most expressive, and he is clearly not limiting his response to that specific situation.
In Targum on Megilas esther, it translates ???? ???? ?????? as “????? ?????”, which would correspond to Nisan 17, the first day of Chol Hamoed (if they kept 2 days of Pesach). Since Mordechai was a member of Sanhedrin, there might have been Kidush Hachodesh during Golus Bavel, and there might have been one day of Pesach. According to Rashi in Megilas Esther, Haman was killed on 16 Nisan. From Rashi in Shas – Maseches Megila, it is not so clear.
Here are the facts, all directly derived from psukim:
Haman’s decree was written on 13 Nisan.
Esther decreed that Jews should fast for 3 days (night and day, or 24-hour fasts)
Esther’s first party was at the end of the third day of fasting.
The second party was the next day.
Mordechai, in taking part in the decree to fast, was ???? the mitzvos of eating ??? ?????, and presumably ????? ????? ????? which is conditional on ??? ????? ????? ?????.
Now, when were the three days of fasting. In order to have three complete days, fasting would need to begin on the 14th, with the 16th as the third day. This would explain Targum. One may argue that the first day was not complete. The calculation of ?? and ????, referring to 70 hours for esther, 72 for everyone else, is a commentary from the Gr”a, which is fascinating, but it is not the posuk. The custom is to consider the second day of Pesach, Nisan 16, as Haman’s Yahrtzeit. Many people sing ????? ???? as part of ?????? at the Yom Tov meal. Others drink an extra sip/cup of wine to take note of Haman’s death.
May we always be zocheh to celebrate the demise of our enemies.
My response:
Change the channel.
GAW:
There is a serious problem with your statement. You seem to assume that Rav Shteinman’s statement was specific to that situation, but that the exclusionary policies are otherwise acceptable. My reaction: Chas veshalom. At the very least, the dinei nefashos of allowing a child to have no yeshiva (Chazon Ish – a general psak) must be posed to a Gadol beYisroel. If this will be done, it will become recognized that the blanket, default psak is that no talmid should ever be left yeshivaless. It will be seen that the rare exception is to refuse a talmid admission in yeshiva. Furthermore, if you view the video carefully, Rav Shteinman makes his statement as a general issue, not a specific psak. Unfortunately, the menahel that posed this question to Rav Shteinman is a yochid. Most menahalim make their decisions without any effort to seek the guidance of anyone else. Their decisions to expel talmidim are also made the same way, without any consultation. I dare you or anyone else to query the average dayan or beis din to assess how many shailos are asked about “little things” versus questions about chinuch. The answers will shock many.
Gedolei Yisroel have spoken out about chinuch, the non-Torahdik policies related to admissions and expulsions, the logicless restrictions in rules and bizarre patterns of “discipline”. Trouble is that their voices are going unheard.
It is commonplace to have Gedolei Yisroel write letters to force admissions for both bochurim and girls to be accepted in yeshivos. Why must Gedolim be busy with matters that should be normal? This picture is frightening, and there is no place to intervene. Each yeshiva may even agree that this issue is problematic, but prefers waiting for other yeshivos to take their heads out of the ground first. This issue is complex, and nothing great will bring about change quickly. But for the sake of continuity of Torah, it better.
Since you are fishing for opinions, here are some.
1. The notion of discriminating against children from certain families is ridiculous. We all know of boys from “simple” families that progressed to becoming true bnei Torah, talmidei chachomim, and stars in their communities. We also know of those boys who come from star studded families who are, well, ordinary, and certainly not remarkables.
2. The idea, which exists in some communities, is plainly stupid. These kollel families are generally unable to pay the exorbitant tuitions required to keep up a yeshiva. The option of making this venture into one that the public will fund through tzedokoh is foolish, as there is a shortage of such funds today, and many baalei batim (I know many) would categorically refuse to sponsor or subsidize such a project.
3. It is high time that the chinuch world stop deluding itself that it can be consistent with Torah values while rationing Torah education, and that it can morally use exclusionary criteria for its admission policies. Yes, in the free enterprise system one may do whatever he wants. But how about Torah morality as the yardstick?
I feel bad for them. However, there need to be rules that are followed here, and, as a yochid, I can’t be the one to do it. Collecting tzedakah does not permit anyone to disturb the tefilos of another, regardless of the form of need (health costs, huge debt, hachnosas kallah, etc.) or the magnitude of it – all of which affect the collector greatly. The responsibility falls on the shul, whether the rebbe, rov, or gabbai, to set the guidelines. There are certain shuls where this panhandling is completely banned. It can only be done in the corridor outside the beis hamedrash. Bothering a baal tefiloh is completely prohibited. The Mishna Berura is emphatic that it cannot be done during kriyas haTorah, and anywhere that one may not be mafsik to speak, one may not be approached about tzedokoh. Our shuls have been denigrated to other purposes besides tefiloh, and the result of our tefilos becoming lower priority in our lives is noticeable. We must retake control over our shuls, make them into the makom tefiloh they should be, all without decreasing the tzedokoh and chesed. But we need to make rules for each shul, and there are those who should be empowered to set these rules. Ye, these limitations need to include strict guidelines about cell phones. If you are willing to leave your cell ringer on, even on vibrate, then you are compromising how much of your concentration is available for davening – let the collectors distract you, as you’re not trying to daven anyway.
To PBA and Kanoi:
Dayan Fisher ZT”L, ?????? ?????, was not eligible to pasken the question about smoking. He was himself seriously addicted. In his last years, his status was so impaired that he required oxygen most of the day. He was seen disconnecting his oxygen to smoke many times a day. This is the addict that is eventually allowed to continue the drug use because there is no way he will stop it and establish abstinence. The other poskim were unanimous, and his being excluded from eligibility to pasken leaves us with no choice other than to recognize the universality of the issur. It is still bothersome to see any Yid smoking, and I wish them a Divine inspiration that clarifies the needs for them to quit. No one said it’s easy, but having a habit to an issur is not an exemption.
This is as smart as Kosher lePesach chazzer.
As is common with many, ignorance can lead to wild conclusions. rebdoniel shared a comment that reflects little true knowledge about the mental health field. In today’s professional world, the mainstream of mental health treatment is based on evidence based techniques. As in any field, there is theory that was developed by observation. Psychology, for one, is firmly based on the scientific model, in which hypotheses are submitted to examination in tests, and the results are then presented for review, replication, or refutation. One can do with theory whatever he wants. It is much tougher when studies have already demonstrated fact. The capacity to study many phenomena scientifically, with proper controls etc., has grown over the years, with technology being a major factor in the refinement of scientific study. The off-handed dismissal of scientific study is foolish and immature.
There are differences in approach between the different mental health fields. Psychiatry has evolved into a greater concentration on the biochemical influences on mental health, hence the current position of most psychiatrists as dispensers of medication for treatment. Psychology, once centered around psychometrics, has evolved into a science (soft, not hard) of human behavior, with a strong feature of scientific study to authenticate and refine diagnosis and treatment. Social work, with many areas of focus, has a clinical social work specialty, where psychotherapy is the mainstay. In reality, these disciplines complement each other, and referrals are often flowing among these three. Turf battles have risen and shrunk over the years. We now witness new groups of professionals in mental health. There are mental health counselors, life coaches, and a few more. Many professionals watch with grave concern how many who lack training have jumped into the counseling and therapy fields, often doing far more harm than benefit. Despite the best of intentions, rabbonim, chosson and kallah teachers, and various askanim dispense therapy and advice that do great damage. Are they also social scientists? I have met some Klai Kodesh who have some pretty disastrous views of politics.
I bet there are therapists who are lousy, despite training and licensing. But I’d rather take my chances with one of those than someone guaranteed to lack the knowledge of the field.
Not this year, but several years ago. A young couple, in third trimester pregnancy walking down the block each wearing a large, green garbage bag. The wife’s bag had a large label, “I’m Hefty”, and the husband’s label said, “I’m Glad”.
I found the subject of this thread rather amusing. It’s the old line that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. The gun has many beneficial uses, and I bet so does facebook. I know that computers do. But, as with much else in life, there are risks. So the uses of these things must always be with caution, safeguards, and limitations. Those unable to control when they will use these things, or how much, or what they may do with them should restrict themselves. Think of it as an allergy. Someone allergic to peanuts must refrain completely because of the risks, while someone else can eat as much as he/she wants. With proper guidelines, internet can be used properly, safely, and to the benefit of all. Some just cannot manage to stay within kosher limits. They either refrain, establish boundaries, or they risk falling into some serious traps. Facebook is not the problem. It’s misuse can be seriously problematic.
I do not use Facebook or any other social network.
TOI:
You are completely wrong, and dangerously so.
There is no such thing as a “chumroh” to drink to shikrus on Purim. There is discussion about what the nature of the mitzvah is. And many, including nearly all of the poskim that are the leaders of our generation, are stating clearly that the drunkeness that is involved in so much danger (alcohol poisoning, accidents, getting rowdy and fighting, drunk driving etc.) is not the preferred way to go, and that the mitzvah does NOT include these negatives. I consider ????? ???? ????? part of the mitzvah, and will be careful to avoid getting stuck in trying to fashion halacha to be consistent with my taavos. So no one is failing to adhere to your invention of chumroh.
There are two ??????? I found for this, and it seems clear that they complement each other.
1. ???? ???? ??????
or
2. ???? ???? ???????
The second version seems more appropos to the choice of the root word here, which is clearly a reference to the absorbing of a fragrance, ?????. Without a doubt, this choice of wording is intended to address a higher level of achievement than the simple physical ingesting of wine. It also stands to reason that the first version is not a transitive verb, but rather a slightly shortened version of the second ?????. Regardless, the poskim have clearly noted that the word ?????? is not mentioned here altogether, and would have been used if that was the intention of the ?????.
Thus, it becomes offensive when people argue that getting drunk is a “mitzvah”, when virtually every other reference in Torah is one that views intoxication as incompatible with kedusha. Drinking? Yes. Getting drunk? Absolutely no.
And for those who consider their imbibing justified as being machmir, Rav Shteinman shlit”a just made a public statement against heavy drinking. Is Rav Shteinman big enough, since those who advocate shikrus have disposed of the Mishna Berura?
GS:
I will only repeat my challenge. Drinking on Purim has nothing to do with escape or outlet. The expectation is that we will be brought to a greater level of simcha, not the shikrus of Lot. The poskim have spoken about this emphatically. I marvel at the trend to seek greater and more intricate chumros in everything, be it shiurim, or other dikdukei mitzvos, trying to accommodate other shitos for almost anything. But the vast array of poskim who are clear about sleeping on Purim (like the obscure posek known as the Mishnah Berurah) gets completely ignored. What is obvious is that this “drink to get drunk” mentality is truly based on the use of Purim as a heter to get drunk – something actually desired all year round. That, my friends, is 100% gashmiyus, unrelated to Torah, not connected whatsoever with the mitzvos of Purim, and actually frowned upon by the greatest of poskim of all generations. Just engage in a real cheshbon hanefesh, where the true motivators are revealed. It ain’t good. That’s the outlet mentality, and that is not related in any way to the mitzvah of ad delo yoda.
Use of alcohol as an “outlet” is a goyishe concept. There is no Torah reference that excuses alcohol use as an escape. Even more, alcohol has specific references in Torah for the holiness of its use, making it a requirement for various rituals. But the purely gashmiyusdige imbibing is frowned upon, and kal vachomer the intoxication from it. I challenge any of the readers and commenters here to find a Torah reference that allows for use of alcohol as an outlet or escape.
My, my. How quickly this thread has deteriorated into the infantile name calling and challenging about character instead of the subject matter. Can anybody rescue this discussion from the bowels of personal battle? Otherwise, perhaps it be closed.
I am not understanding the polarized comments here. There is a major amount of hashgocho involved in the producing of children and their genetic coding. Parents do not have the control over that. With what science does know, we need to be cautious, and relatives marrying can possibly involve increased risk of combining of recessive genes. Dor Yeshurim does a superb and excellent job in testing for everything known, and it has the access to test for additional issues if there is reason to suspect, as with relatives. In fact, I have examined the situation quite carefully, and it seems that Dor Yeshurim has a better track record than the “average” lab.
For families that have no identified cases of illness for the past few generations, it stands to reason that there is a statistically lower risk. Regardless, if you ask R’ Eckstein of Dor Yeshurim, he will recommend against relatives marrying.
In my family, intra-family marriages have happened, and there have been no problems B”H. Everyne who considered such a shidduch did meticulous homework before proceeding. HKB”H should continue to protect all of Klal Yisroel.
While I am all in favor of following laws, there are some that need to be changed because they are plainly stupid, useless, and only cause problems. The No Parking zone in front of a shul is without purpose. I understand the fire hydrants. Even the bus stops (though way too much space is sacrificed for busses). The shul thing produces zero benefit, only providing the revenue for illegal parking. This is a feature of the current climate that penalizes drivers for operating automobiles so that they can balance the city budget. It has never made sense. But with the current mayor, no one will ever consider removing these No Parking zones so that there is enough room for people to park.
Have you ever heard of a menahel throwing a bochur out of yeshiva for chutzpah? While I consider such expulsions to be murder, we would not have much hesitation justifying the behavior as defending Kavod Hatorah. Now, let’s switch venues. We are now in a courtroom, where there is a system of respect that is required. Speaking in derogatory manners is not ok, and making lewd hand gestures and similar remarks to the judge is not ok. The judge just made that message in monetary terms and in a month in jail.
Secondly, it is bizarre to look to excuse her behavior based on her drug status. She is there because of criminal behavior, not as an invitee to a party. If she was so impaired, she would not have been there at all. She is not serious about the entire affair, and this dismissal of the law is inexcusable.
TOI:
And you also teaching them something that is shelo kedin. There is absolutely NO mitzvah or minhag to drink spirits other than wine on Purim. Such imbibing is only for the purely gashmiyusdig goal of shikrus, which has nothing to do with Purim. This has been repeated countless times by poskim of our generation and many previous generations. Pouring shots is thus nothing more than encouraging kids to get drunk and is assur without question. Being the adult who does this is being machati others, and should not be done at all. There is a major task of teshuvah for being such a baal aveiro. My Rosh Yeshiva poured and gave wine, which he stopped many years ago when the drinking became problematic.
jbaldy22:
I am surprised at an assumption in your comment. The law does not hint to permitted drunkeness at any age or with religion as an excuse. Rather it seeks to place responsibility to prevent alcohol use by someone who is less likely to know limits for safe drinking. From the problems among adults, which are even frightening for frum community, it is crtical to insure that young people do not go down that path.
As far as rabbeiim and roshei yeshivos being in favor of shikrus, I beg to differ. Most are not agreeable to it, and actually find this trend abhorrent. You are correct that there are those who turn a blind eye, and do not prevent it.
One of the major yeshivos in Brooklyn has paid security guards by the doors on Purim night. They are bouncers to stop those already drunk from entering, and they search entrants to be sure they are not bringing in more alcohol or drugs.
Lastly, no government cares about Purim to write legislation about it. The laws about alcohol and minors is as relevant and needed for the gentile as for the Jew. I would hope that all Yidden, everywhere, and of all ages, exercise good judgment in drinking on Purim, and refrain completely from the shikrus that is dangerous, and certainly not the halacha of ad delo yoda.
I know that I am inciting some zealots, many who obeyed instructions from dayanim and batei din, but I frown upon the use of violence and similar forms of protest. Firstly, they accomplish nothing beyond capturing the attention of the anti-Jewish or anti-frum media. Secondly, I have not succeeded in finding sources of such behavior as consistent with Torah values. We must all follow the edict of ????? ???? ????, mandating that we use such means to achieve our goals. Can someone please convince me that getting hit with stones will make a chiloni become shomer Shabbos? The mitzvah of ????? ????? is specific to the accomplishment of the goal – otherwise it is the mitzvah to not say or do anything (???? ????? ??? ?).
Since the subject of gezel shinah was raised, I must divert a bit to highlight something common to many frum neighborhoods. I don’t go to bed all that early, but I often hear long, incessant honking of car horns late into the night. While I can always enhance my situation with a drop of caffeine the next day, I find the waking of sleeping babies and children on the block inconsiderate, even abusive. Are our pressures at the level of pikuach nefesh that the disturbance to countless others is meaningless?
I read the comments on this thread again, and there is one thought that comes to mind. I totally believe that those who wish to be permissive about drunkeness for minors have engaged in the process of this determination backwards. First, they established their goal of permitting it, then they looked for a way to pervert the words of the poskim who are the guides for our generation to support that. A Posek does not do that. He investigates the subject with an open mind, and reaches the conclusion that the poskim conclude.
Since I consider the shikrus that some wish to claim as a mitzvah as an absolute aveiro, I questioned myself whether I was also guilty of holding a particular psak prior to studying the sugya. Several things became apparent. One, that there is ample misunderstanding of what ad delo yoda means. Next, that the fact that some people can get very drunk without negative consequences is accepted as a model for others. Next, that some people glorify the state of intoxication, and thus judge the Torah as somehow making this, at the very least, a one time mitzvah. I find these observations frightening. Has anyone from the “permissive” camp brought the question to a Posek that understands the ramifications of excessive alcohol in minors?
There is a huge difference between just not sharing something and keeping secrets. Among the comments here, especially those with traces of seriousness, there seems to be a bit of confusion. Having an aspect of one’s life that is secret and kept away from a spouse is a powder keg. The discovery is often enough to create major problems. Similarly, there are plenty of issues that one spouse can experience that are not needed in the interaction, and bringing them in can create wedges. A few mentioned about having a bad day at the office. There might be many ways to deal with this. Arriving home and mentioning it in the context of reaching out for support can be a positive thing. If the spouse then digs into the issue, offering opinions that are irrelevant, could create potential for conflict. So it’s not simple, but the distinction above is one of the basics in relationships.
Having separate bank accounts can work for some, but transparency is critical. Maintaining schedule structure with knowledge of where the other goes is a great idea, critical for many couples.
DY:
Questions “lekanter” are not real questions. They require responses, but not necessarily answers. Regardless, for one’s own emunoh, one needs to have the answers or to go look for them. Maybe the questions that are asked “lekanter” are issues the rebbe, teacher, or parent needs to explore, and Hashgochas Hashem placed that before them to do just that.
Being involved in the issue, it is rather clear that most questions are not truly “lekanter”. Rather they are an expression of pain and rejection that is being converted into an intellectual question. The judgment of “lekanter” is quite often inaccurate, and is (as would be discovered in a true cheshbon hanefesh) the adult’s own defensiveness. In fact, nearly all “rebellious” behavior is actually an expression of pain, not true rebellion. The Kotzker stated that the true “Apikores” is a rarity. Most are simply using intellectual sounding issues to justify fulfillment of their own taavos.
There a few facts that some here seem to have missed.
1. The obligation to discipline emanates from the mitzvah of hocheyach tochiyach. The mesilas Yeshorim spells out that this mitzvah is hinged on the outcome. If rebuke has positive effect, then doing so fulfills a mitzvah. If it causes a backlash, then the mitzvah is to remain silent. Our chinuch systems appear hell-bent on doing something, otherwise it is tantamount to approval. This premise is faulty. Meanwhile severe forms of punishment, or those unrelated to the “crime” teach nothing and usually backfire. Such “dsicipline” is actually abuse and not al pi Torah.
2. It became recognized many years ago that the OTD kids were being mislabeled as “drop outs”. Actually, they are “throw outs”, and there will be much to pay on Judgment day for the spiritual murder of these neshamos.
3. Yes, Emunoh issues are excuses. However, the questions are generally legitimate, and deserve answers. One main reason our “system” bases severe rejections on these “questions of faith” is because we (the system) don;t have the answers. If any mechanech(es) would try to answer the questions on Emunoh as they would about nuances of current questions in Hilchos Shabbos, they would discover their own real issues, or perhaps save a child from slipping into the abyss of OTD.
I have no clue about the “real story” I also don’t know more than the media reports about the locks on the door. But I do know, from personal contact, that NW saw “clients” of the female gender, alone at wee hours of the night. One might “good samaritan” this by noting his availability in a time of crisis. However, having an opposite gender “client” alone at wee hours of the night is NOT ok with hilchos yichud, no matter what Rov is consulted. I might admit that I was shocked by the #103. But I feel this is a zechus for Klal Yisroel that he is removed from the panel of “therapists” and is also away from society where he would be a risk of repeating his immoral and criminal behavior.
Lastly, NR has no credit for anything here. He is simply the mouthpiece that makes these events into chilul Hashem circuses. He does not protect children, but exposes them to the filth on his hotline, and takes events to the media that need not to be broadcast.
Heard in shul this morning:
Jail sentences do not make sense, and efforts to explain them are futile. Incarceration does not rehabilitate, and no one possesses the knowledge to establish a time limit for punishment. The criminal does not contemplate the consequences of crime, and the fact that others received still penalties do not serve as a deterrent. The only reason to incarcerate is to protect society from criminals. Now, do we know anything about how long it takes for a guarantee that a crime will not be repeated? Nothing. Result is that sentencing is a tool to tell the public certain messages, and that is the only rational explanation for 103.
We would be wiser to hear the message, instead of the useless discussion about whether someone with chassidic garb is handled fairly in court. The reality is that our community is irresponsible, and damagingly so, in referring anyone to an untrained “therapist”, and cross-gender to boot. This guy here wantonly trashed hilchos yichud. He was warned many times, and did not care for fundamental halacha. I cannot determine the appropriate punishment, but he is a guilty man, and was long before any reports were made. The community did a gross disservice in how it handled the entire affair, and needs to revisit its approach to child safety.
Chana:
You cannot know, so your statement is unreliable.
I can state, as per NW’s admission to me, that he saw single, female clients alone at wee hours of the night. That’s yichud, and he admitted it openly. I have no clue about the case that was made in court, but he has no chezkas kashrus here.
Forbidden to believe a single allegation? Did you really say that? That is one of the most foolish statements in this thread. You may referring to a completely mistaken understanding of the obligation to be ?? ??? ????, which actually does not obligate anyone to deny facts, but to be ready to accept alternative explanations. Since we are talking facts, the role of the jury is to establish facts by believability. This requires a “jury of one’s peers”, not experts. It is correct that the Torah does not account for a trial by jury, but that is the secular court who set the rules for that system. It is bizarre to expect a secular court to adopt the standards of a beis din and halacha to adjudicate a criminal.
As for benefit of doubt, NW already got that. Now it’s time to put him away. Next?
Shmoel:
I don’t know you, but the stupidity that emanates from your comment is in the superlative.
Firstly, have you been to jury duty lately? I have. The panels collected are not homeless, drunks, imbeciles. I speak from experience.
Next, Weberman had, and still has people who “believe” his innocence. No, there is no way to prove it, they just believe it. I don’t. You see, I spoke to Weberman, and I personally confronted him on his having women alone in his office late into the night. His attitude was, Don’t worry. He was suspect about his dealings with women for many years. I have no clue about this specific case, or whether he ever touched anyone. But I sooner believe these accusations than to disbelieve them.
Thirdly, Rabbi Horowitz does not generate stuff from the rumor mill. He has facts, and is willing to share them. From the intellect displayed by your comment, I am not likely to consider your pronouncements “facts”. Rabbi Horowitz does get that edge from me.
Some people have allowed their marriages to deteriorate, or were the victims of enough outside interference that they cannot muster the basic skills to make their marriage work. Many entered the picture poorly prepared. Either way, the need for a counselor might be valid. Those who can manage the speed bumps of marriage without outside help should certainly save the money and time, and invest in their home, not the unneeded professional.
One reason to have a date outside the home was to be away from the distractions of the home. Among them was the wonderful, but majorly disruptive telephone. Now with cell phones that no one leaves home without one, couples need to cherish each other enough to shut theirs.
No one can fault the OP for suggesting that we look to use technology to our advantage, making something we need to do more efficient. However, this is one of those things that has so many real obstacles that it is prohibitive. Here are some obvious problems:
1. Who will verify the information contained in this shidduch resume? If it is not verified, we continue to have the problem, well known to the community that the word ???? is ???? ????? for ??? ???? ??? ????. Nothing gained.
2. Information that gets entered on a database is concrete. There is no way one can successfully include the needed information about personality, emotional presentation, or about chemistry. One would still need to invest the time in collecting information about impressions from others. No one would be so insane as to trust this public database to make or break a shidduch.
3. It is frightening that this database could someday be used as a mechanism to have shidduchim developed online, with a formula to determine compatibility based on concrete data.
4. In the real shidduch world, there is a give and take process where someone will determine that factors that would otherwise be considered a negative are accepted because of the desire for the positives. No database can substitute for human judgment.
5. This will contribute to the end of the world. The gemora tells us that HKB”H is busy ???? ?????? ??????. There would be no work left for Him!
6. This database would also apportion which shadchanim should accept which shidduchim. That almost guarantees that the shadchan that will deal with my child will be a total stranger who does not know me, my family, my child, and the same for the other side. That should be scary.
There are more issues. Certain things cannot be replaced by robots. It might work well on the assembly line in a factory. For truly human matters, it just makes for a good joke.
HaKatan:
Wrong approach. Removing a child from a cheder because of unsafe conditions allows the problem to continue and expose countless other children to risk. The proper approach is to make contacts with those who have jurisdiction and “force” the yeshiva to take measures to make the environment safer. If this yeshiva is part of a chassidus that has a rebbe here, find someone to approach that rebbe with the issue. Perhaps gathering a group of parents, instead of just one parent alone may make greater impact. Having other askanim who carry soome clout make the connections with the hanhala, etc. You get the gist.
Taking your child out saves your child (unfortunately, that’s all we can do sometimes), but there must be a strong effort at correcting this irresponsibility.
I suggest you search Consumer Reports or similar publications for exposes about the “organic” agricultural products. Last time I read the articles, they indicated that this “organic” market has no way of establishing that the products ostensibly grown under “organic” conditions are the same as those sold as such. It suggested that it is as likely to buy fruit in any old supermarket or fruit store that not labeled anything and it is actually grown by an “organic” grower as it is to purchase from a specialty “organic” store and to wind up with fruit grown under regular conditions. Maybe something changed, but I got the message that the “organic” industry is completely unreliable to bring their products to market.
There are so many deficiencies in today’s chosson and kallah classes it is scary. Many teachers just cover halachos, which is also problematic because it rarely accounts for differing opinions. It is the exception when the chosson and kallah teacher communicate to insure they are on the same page. Some teachers present mythical material. Unfortunately, there is no regulation or oversight. I was recently introduced to a few yungerleit in Brooklyn who are working class people looking to earn an extra dollar, and have been volunteering themselves as chosson teachers. Their qualification – still being married after 5 years.
Also missing, to our deep chagrin, is the guidance on how to manage the relationship. How should a couple fight/disagree? How should they manage their relationships with respective in-laws? Fundamental communication skills need to be taught. In the words of one of the recently departed gedolim, “Learn to be mevater on everything.”
The role of religion and spirituality is rarely addressed, though differences here are apt to become problems. When dating, prospective chassanim and kallos present themselves in their best light. But the real self is reserved for exposure later. Life is full of speed bumps. If the skills to handle these are there, they become just markers that were passed by without event. If not, the weak relationship can be severely rattled.
Next is the matter of where to turn when there are issues. Many involve their parents. This is rarely effective. Others look to other outsiders, extended family, rabbonim, etc. This is also of limited value. Most are untrained, and have no idea what suggestions are actually harmful to the marriage.
Spending couple time alone is great. But without having learned basic skills, from parental models or by instruction, this could just provide another arena to play out the problems that are apt to arise out of poor preparation for marriage.
Health:
I will quote from Rav Dovid Cohen shlit”a whose memory is not just better, but predates mine by a little. Tobacco manufacturers quite some years ago packaged cigarettes in packs of 5, and distributed them free on street corners. Why? Even their own research indicated that addiction was established by just four cigarettes! One extra for good measure, and to cover the minority who might need it. That hooked the customers for life. The idea that allowing minimal smoking to avoid developing the taavah (read: addiction) is simply fantasy. Any tobacco company would gladly offer the two packs for free, as they know they have a lifetime client. Your humble opinion might sound nice, but in actuality, it is a myth.
Health:
I did NOT declare anything ossur as if I was a posek. I am simply quoting the countless poskim who have boldly stated their psak. I have a few sforim in front of me that discuss the issue, with haskomos from the leading poskim of this and the past generation. I would transcribe their statements if it wasn’t prohibitive to spend all that time typing. As if it matters, several add that the first cigarette is also an issur because it is the first of many, and this voluntary succumbing to an addiction is an additional issur. The Chasam Sofer addresses the role of issues of sakanah being even more strict than issur, and that compromises and cutting of corners (sometimes permitted in halacha) are not even negotiable. So if you have an agenda to declare smoking any less of an issur than it is, stand up and proclaim your position. I am standing with the greatest poskim of our generation (and some who have passed on) in declaring every cigarette an absolute issur mid’oraysa.
The suggestions for “shock therapy” by exposing the child to the diseases and deaths continue despite the fact that research has failed to demonstrate any effectiveness for the “scared straight” method. The kid who smokes for the social image and connection receives his positive reinforcement immediately, while the negative consequences are a mirage to him, the accumulation of thousands of cigarettes over a great deal of time. One is reality, the other a distant and imaginary concept. If you explore the thinking process of the kid who has begun smoking, these “shocking” ideas will make little sense. And, in fact, they don’t work.
Some of the suggestions here make sense, others do not. Mine won’t add much to either category. But it is worth re-examining our attitudes toward smoking. They are generally cavalier. And perhaps that is more of a root of the problem, rather than the influences of friends, rebellion, etc.
In other threads in the CR, the discussions about smoking included the overwhelming majority of rabbonim and poskim who stated unequivocally that smoking (yes, even the single cigarette) is a clear issur mid’oraysa. It is just as permissible as eating pork, and we need to be reacting to any smoking with the same revulsion as chazzer. But we don’t. Every shul has a spot for drinking coffee, and most have locations outdoors where smokers can puff away. Either before or after tefilloh where they will face HKB”H who said the behavior of smoking is a violation of His ratzon. I marvel at the azus needed to do this.
Our frum magazines and papers have addressed this subject occasionally, and I have yet to hear of a single Yid that stopped smoking due to the articles in our press. I wondered about a Kol Koreh with signatures. I doubt there would be an effect. Probably because the same Rov who signed such an issur would allow a smoker to daven for the amud and have an aliyah in his beis hamedrash, which might not be the case had this smoker been mechalel Shabbos or eaten chazzer. We do not have a community consistent approach. So all the proclamations with signatures are worthless.
If someone has an answer for the adult population, we might stand a chance at fashioning an approach for our youth. But meanwhile, our kids see nothing wrong with it, not medically, not religiously. Our rantings about such consequences fall on deaf ears. If we don’t take ourselves seriously, why should they?
I overheard a discussion in shul some months ago in which someone asked why HKB”H listened to the tefilo of Yishmael, not Hagar, on which Rashi explains that the tefilo of a sick person for himself is preferred to that of another for him. Doesn’t this challenge the other Rashi that Hashem gives priority status to the tefilo for another? The suggested answer was to see what the posuk states was Hagar’s tefilo. “?? ???? ???? ????”, essentially asking to not have to witness the death of the child. This tefilo was not for the ???? but for herself. It may be natural to think of oneself when trouble with a family member exists, but it is unproductive. It does not help the one with the real problem, and it does not even help when this becomes a tefilo. So, yes, the parent might think of their own shame with regards to the child in trouble, but the direction and focus needs to change seriously to the real problem, not the side issues.
I refuse top leave my cell on vibrate during davening. Just think – if it does ring, some percent (say 5%) of my brain is busy with “Who called?”, “What did they want?”, “Do I need to call back?”, etc. That’s 5% that is not available for my concentration to daven. That’s not ok.
I routinely turn off my cell phone upon entering the building of the beis hamedrash. It is unfair, rude, and a public disturbance to have a phone ringing when others are davening or learning. On occasion, someone forgets to shut the ringer, and it does disturb the minyan. The only remedy is to recognize that Hashem allows distractions by tefilo, since the Satan wants to interfere with out speaking to HKB”H directly. It is there for me to intensify my focus, not to give mussar to yenem. If I was someone whose mussar might be accepted, I might have another mission.
I choose to focus on myself, not anyone else.