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“I was talking about your line of – “so derisively as if its useless”.”
Perhaps I exaggerated a bit,
but the word “only” is clearly derisive in context that it isnt as valuable as something else (whcih of course is true, if you had supplied say a RCT)
but to say “Btw, the conclusion that you brought down from the Lancet, is only an Observational Study” … “Here’s a new observational Study: From the NYU study:…” Is a bit funny.zinc
ready now
“The study does not even give doses that were administered, very. very significant omission!”
Lol! By saying that you indicate that you didnt read the study, and likely have never read any study ever, doeses are ALWAYS given..
“The mean daily dose and duration of the various drug regimens were as follows: chloroquine alone, 765 mg (SD 308) and 6·6 days (2·4); hydroxychloroquine alone, 596 mg (126) and 4·2 days (1·9); chloroquine with a macrolide, 790 mg (320) and 6·8 days (2·5); and hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide, 597 mg (128) and 4·3 days (2·0). ”
“Of course, also no zinc was used in the study! The study is not valid.”
Unclear to me , why that would make the study not valid. If you argue that it has no bearign on the use of HCQ + zinc, I could understand, but why doesnt it tell us that HCQ alone is not beneficial for covid19, and may even be harmful?
“The use of the word “may” is an unwarranted understatement.”
as the authors acknowledge “This study has several limitations. First, this was an observational retrospective analysis that could be impacted by confounding variables. This is well demonstrated by the
analyses adjusting for the difference in timing between the patients who did not receive zinc and those who did. In addition, we only looked at patients taking hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. We do not know whether the observed added benefit of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin on mortality would have been seen in patients who took zinc sulfate alone or in combination with just one of
those medications. We also do not have data on the time at which the patients included in the study initiated therapy with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc. Those
drugs would have been started at the same time as a combination therapy, but the point
in clinical disease at which patients received those medications could have differed
between our two groups. Finally, the cohorts were identified based on medications
ordered rather than confirmed administration, which may bias findings towards favoring
equipoise between the two groups. In light of these limitations, this study should not be
used to guide clinical practice. Rather, our observations support the initiation of future
randomized clinical trials investigating zinc sulfate against COVID-19.”Its a bit strange that the authors ackowledge limitatiosn o the study but you (who clearly havent read it or the lancet study) say “The use of the word “may” is an unwarranted understatement.”
Dr. Z hasnt shown any study and has very limited anecdotal reports that don’t even tell us anything , and you jump on board.
Again to reiterate I am not disputing the study, and I am nto saying HCQ doesnt work.
“Don’t PUT Words in my Mouth! I never meant or said that.”
This is a verbatim quote from you: ““Btw, the conclusion that you brought down from the Lancet, is only an Obserational Study.””
“Don’t ask questions”
questions are always encouraged. Ask away, any question you have. thats what I love about this forum. f someone feels like answering the will (for free! no charge!) Of course if they don’t thats fine too. bu questions are always ok.
” – go look at the NYU study yourself!”
I didready now
“Dr Z made a valid study which is apparently going to be published in about 2 weeks, it is a retrospective study, completely valid.”
He said that over 2 weeks ago. Looking forward.“The use of the word “may” is an unwarranted understatement.”
I’m not sure if you read the study. The reason they put “may” is because the results are not so clear.
“In univariate analysis, the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was not associated with a decrease in length of hospital stay, duration of mechanical ventilation, maximum oxygen flow rate, average oxygen flow rate, average fraction of inspired oxygen, or maximum fraction of inspired oxygen during hospitalization” It was only when they performed a bivariate logistic regression analysis, that they found a link. They also noted “after excluding all non-critically ill patients admitted to the intensive care unit, zinc sulfate no longer was found to be associated with a decrease in mortality” Whcih confirms the anecdotal data I’ve been mentioning.None of this invalidates the study of course. IT very well MAY change prctice.
But Dr. Z’ so far has produced nothing. Which is the subject of the thread.
Reminder this thread isnt about whether HCQ helps (with zinc) Its whther everyone should prescribe it becasue Dr. Z said so.
Health
“because of the Lancet’s Observational Study. Maybe you should send them a copy of this stud…”
You say “observational” so derisively as if its useless “Btw, the conclusion that you brought down from the Lancet, is only an Obserational Study.” Yet you cite another observational study
Which showed that HCQ + zinc was better than HCQ alone. The Lancet study showed HCQ was worse than no HCQ. but what is better HCQ + zinc or no HCQ no Zinc ?” simply so you cannot be accused of ignoring it! Very funny,”
you are hard to please. You get upset If I don’t mention zinc
you get upset if I do .“The proof that Dr Z is correct is that Dr Z’s turf had nearly no deaths compared to other areas. This is study beyond reproach.”
Its not
As has been pointed out over and over. There are many many many people who have had no deaths. there are many many “high risk” patients who have had no deaths.“I don’t care about Doc Z. And I don’t care whether he’s got proof.”
That’s fine.
But that is the subject of the thread, and that is what I am addressingHealth
“is only an Obserational Study.”
I wouldnt say “only” as it looks at 10’s of thousdands thats a lot of observation, and even if “only” observational, thats better that Dr. Z. so far I have seen no study produced by him.“Don’t imply that’s the final word. I know that’s what you’re trying to Do!”
nope. not what I’m trying to do. I don’t think there ever will be a final word .
Again, as a reminder what this thread is about (it has been running for 250 posts for almost 2 months so easy to lose track) The OP asked “Does anyone understand why doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine even though it is working throughout the country”
I am not arguing to use it I am not arguing not to use it (I said this explicitly over a dozen times )I am just pointing out why some “doctors don’t want to give hydroxychloroquine even though it is working throughout the country” which is becasue Dr. Z just doesnt have a convincing argument. A observational study while clearly not the last word, does show that perhaps there is some bias coloring Dr. Z’s anecdotal reports.
oR Maybe not.
zinc
“are there still people getting sick with corona to the point that they need hospitalization/oxygen etc.”
Yes
(Though I am a doctor so not sure you want to hear from me, particularly as it doesn’t fir your predetermined conclusion. The title of your thread says “in the frum world” but the text of the question does not. I have not seen frum pts with corona requiring hospitalization recently)
n)mesora
If your doctor thinks its a good idea
(If you were my patient I’d say yes zinc has noting to do with malaria as far as I’m aware but this isnt really my turf so check with infectious disease)
“There is your study,”
that isn’t a study.
and that is a bit vague he had one death out of some 600 people. If in surronding districts they had multiple (2?) deaths out of 1200 then HCQ is no better than nothing. If it was multiple deaths out of 1500 then HCQ was worse than nothing….He said he’s release the data “soon”
when?
e’s been talking about it for months.
Tell him to skip his next interview and publish the dataOtherwise all we have is currently published data like the study in the lancet “Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis”
conclusion:
“We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19.“How about discussing the Salk vaccine for curing hemorrhoids.”
Sure go for it. you can discus anything you want
with zinc
(I I don’t include zinc in every post ready now gets angry)
“So the Doctor is good, very good, he said Hashem gave him the idea for the Hydroxychloroquine, z pack and zinc sulfate, that he takes no credit himself.”
and did it help?
🙂
“Maybe the hospitals are less crowded so the patients are actually getting the attention they need.”
Yes I meat to include that. that is certainly true to. Is challenging managing ICU patients outside of the ICU. In our ICU the doors are see through vitals displayed at the nursing station. aside from the nurse limited to 2-3 patients tops there is someone else monitoring all the vitals.
during the height of corona with these patients being managed on a regular floor in a closed room, Unless the nurse physicly enters the room (After donning proper PPE) nobody knew how the patient was doing , and he/she was caring for more patients than is ideal.Lack of nutrition I havent seen. I’m skeptical it was as big an issue as reported. Patients and familes often become focused on nutrition /feeding even when patient is say already getting tube feeds or if electrolytes are being monitored. I obviously can’t speak for all hospitals, but more than once Ive met familes accusing hospitals of starving patients who were being getting tube feeds which in their view “isnt really food” .
“The hospitals certainly became very busy but in New York they never ran out of space”
true thanks to social distancing
“I am sure doctors are aware if a patient has a pre-existing heart condition”
It has nothing to do with preexisting heart conditions. HCQ is well known to extend the QTC (part of the heart rhythm, if it becomes to long the heart can descend into a potential fatal rhythm called torsades)
Certainly if a patient already has a long QTC they are at risk , this can be ascertained by a simple EKG.The bigger concern is then if more QTC prolonging mediations are added, like if the patient takes a z pack for say penumonia.
“if the life would hang in the balance with the threat of coronavirus. The risks have to be weighed”
no question.
I literally said this in my very first post way back on April 6. Go check its still there“Also, the longer someone waits to get sick, the more the medical establishment knows how to treat it”
A great point. I can’t put my finger as to what it is, and look forward to data that wil eventually emerge. but without question the covid pats Iv’e seen over the past month did a lot better than those a month before. Again this is purely anecdotal , and I can’t tell you what it is that seems to be helping (remedesvir ? convalescent plasma? stopped giving axithromycin? heparin?) But without question patients who a months ago I’d have thought were doomed (based on then current experience) are doing better when they arrive now
“If you were overwhelmed why didn’t you send patients to the Javits or the Comfort? ”
1. We did send some to comfort
2. As health pointed out They weren’t accepting Covid patients at first so the bulk of patients that were overwhelming the hospital couldn’t even be off loaded
3. By the time the comfort allowed Covid pts the worst was over. While waiting pts had been transferred upstate to ease the pressure (unfortunately without always notifying the family)Syag excellent post
Thank you
The only minor quibble is regarding “Finances is NEVER a good reason to put any lives at risk. Suffering long term health and emotional damage from losing everything on the other hand is a legitimate reason to weigh which is the lesser of two tragedies. But people saying the economy overall is worth more than a life are nutcases.”
I’m conflicted (and I’m not sure I disagree with you given the middle sentence there ) . It is a common refrain that “saving a life trumps everything*” but that isn’t completely true. Fro example in regard to pidyon shevuim, do we give everything to save a person? shulchan Aruch YD 254:4 says this is assur because of “tikkun olam” (Now it depends on what the reason for this tikun olam is: (Gemara gives two reasons too much pressure on the community or to prevent further kidnappings. distinction wopuld be if a individual can afford it so there is no pressure on the community can he do it. Achronim seem split as to how we pasken ) As to how much it relates to a virus but clearly “”saving a life trumps everything” is not 100% true.
It is clear to me that preventing the overwhelming of the hospital system was worth the shutdown. I donl;t think reasonable people can disagree on that.
I am not so sure about shutting the economy overall” to save ” a life” I am even less sure about where that line would be drawn 2 lives ? 100? 1000?Again I dont think we disagree, because the “financial pressure” the Gemara discusses isnt (I dont htink) money to go to disneyland or something like that. Without an economy society can’t function leading to many problems including, as you put it, “Suffering long term health and emotional damage” I think (hope) the people who say “the economy overall is worth more than a life ” mean it that way
* yes except 3 cardinal sins
Doing my best
Here is another illogical excuse
“Stop worrying about what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. YOU should only be concerned about YOURSELF”syag
“but it is certainly easy to find actual information to support that. ”It is easy to find information to support any claim you want. There are tons of online posts claiming (falsely) that hospitals are empty there are a whole group of video labeled #filmyourhospitla showing calm outside the hospital as if that somehow shows that inside it is business as usual.
Of course just becasue you find support for a claim, doesn’t make it so, whether for (or against) global warming or whether hospitals were overwhelmed.
“No Republican, ever, has said that the Republicans are an anti-science party
No not literally in those words.“Trump is still not a typical Republican and never will be. ….t, do not reflect on the party.”
Semantics. Tes he reflects on your party. you cant elect (and support a candidate and say ” he isnt really one of us”
“And no, the hospitals were NOT overwhelmed, not even in NY.”
they were.This was discussed on another thread. doctors did not have time to tend to all coding patients. Hence the “mandatory DNRs”
I can tell you first hand I did not have enough dialysis machines for all the patients that needed them I was forced to choose who gets dialysis and who doesn’t (there was simpley not enough machines and nurses for everyone) IT was very overwhelming. Critically ill patients were manged in hallways. You are simply wrong Look at posts from other physicians. I get it if you dont believe me. Look at Ellie Bennet’s post. Ditchek talk to any NYC doctoryou cant just dismiss facts that don’t fit your narrative. This is becoming a pattern with you.
At least with global warming yo u have “evidence” on your side fine so most scientists accept it but some hack blogs disregard it for such erudite reasons as you detailed. I can live with that. . and the side the scientists support is the “anti-science party” got it, makes sense.but hospitals not being overwhelmed? Trump not reflecting the Republican party
amazing stuffready nkw
Yes that’s his point but us hogwash. in both cases it should be prescribed and monitored by a doctor.
This is not controversial with lupus. But first some reason with covid people support everyone take it unmonitored based on one doctors say soMoshe
“Would the epidemiologist please explain the danger if everyone attending employs safeguards of masks, gloves and distancing?”
Joseph answered your question “How can the gabbai most politely inform someone who it is a sofek whether he’s kosher to be counted as part of the ten, that there’s no room for him?”
People are sending around a video from Rav Asher Weisss that the virus isnt gone etc.
It surprises me that people don’t realize this. (almost) no virus is ever gone .The virus that killed millions in 1918 is STILL around killing people from time to time. In 100 years from now as some other epidemic sweeps the globe people will say the same Covid 19, the one they all get vaccines for (yearly?) .In theory if people wear masks perfectly sanitize well dont touch shared items etc then no it shouldn’t spread. BUT the reality that it is impossible to keep all of that, and it will spread and more people will get it and some of them will die.
Hopefully not many since most of us have been exposed and have antibodies, but most is not all.I am not an epidemiologist, but I dont see how the above could possibly be in dispute.
that is the straightforward part.The harder part is what level of risk do we tolerate? to me it seems the risk is low enough that reopening shuls is warranted. but I am not a posek, so I am not willing to make that decision (not that anybody asked me)
Kilaolomchasdo
“When I said “disease,” I WASN’T referring to covid-19”I’m sorry. I completely misunderstood.
“So I was correct”
About what?
I have no idea if we are arguing or what it is about. But no you are not correct about anything,, as literally every post you write has at least one inaccuracy.
“ut the risks are relatively downplayed in relation to Hydroxychloroquine, ”
what does that mena? downplayed compared to what?
and don;t put words in his mouth. The vie ois there I quoted it verbatim.He said “there are no warnings to patients” when used for lupus.
This is plain and simply not true (or he is a bad doctor)““monitored for risks” means “please let us know of any untoward side effects you may experience while taking this medication ””
No it doesnt. it means checking an EKG before treatment starts, repeating one after. Telling patient to call if they start new meds particularly antibiotics like Azitrhomycin which increases the risk. (plus of course there is retinal toxicity but not relevant to short term use)“Where on earth could you possibly have got that idea? ”
I spend most of my time interacting with Republicans. Your posts are no different post exhibit a ““Climate change” is a deliberate fraud, perpetrated by a small number of outright con men”
“Trump is hardly the typical Republican”
This statement may have been true 5 years ago. Today you can’t just dismiss him as not being typical. He represents your party (as much as you may not like that) , those who don’t support him (eg Lincoln Project) are labeled “Rinos”*“You can read all about it on Power Line.”
I dont have to. I saw first hand how close the hospital system came to breaking, as mentioned elsewhere it some ways it did.“Read some articles on Watts Up With That.”
sure will thanksMillhouse
your post is funny“Democrats are the anti-science party. T”
I thought Republicans were proud that they were the anti-science party. You yourself proudly state how you deny climate change (sorry just saying it isnt real doesn’t make it go away) “They are the party of anti-vaxx, ”
Yo uelected a leader who dabbled in Vaccine autism conspiracies. (I’ll give you anti-GMO, though I’m not sure what you mean by Democrats being the party of astrology and you other example isn’t a science issue)Its ok to get worked up, I’d be ashamed too if my party’s nominee said “When I was growing up, autism wasn’t really a factor And now all of a sudden, it’s an epidemic … My theory is the shots.”
“We’ve just ruined thousands of lives because of a very wrong model that,”
what very wrong model?
there are nearly 100,000 deaths and climbing in the US. and that is in spite of Social distancing. yes lives are made difficult, but many more were saved.““global warming” until they could no longer convince people that the world was in fact getting warmer because all their predictions faile”
I didn’t realize climate change was even controversial anymore. I thought even Republicans accept it but don’t believe it is caused by man. IS the average global temperature not rising?Kil
Its good your not a posek. As your assumption is way off base. BH poskim saw the truth
I’m baffled how you even came to such a bizarre assumption . Have you seen the shiova listing s on misaskim? the death notices on ywn over the past month? Dis it really seem like the same number of people that die from car accidentsThat said. Thank you for answering the OP’s question
OP here is the answer doimg my best did an excellent job as well but here is an actual example“Hydroxychloroquine, HOQ’s use with lupus, compared to the huge outcry when the same medication is used to treat covid19”
I am not aware of any media blitzto push HCQ for all lupus patients. If there was you can bet there would be a outcry slow down discuss it with your doctor there are risks
Even pharmaceutical ads warn of riks “including death” and “discuss with your doctor whether xyz is right for you”
AND even if there was such a push.
1. There a re fewer patients lupus patients so side effect would be rarer.
2. The benefit is well established so the risk is justified.“The patients are always told of possible risks as that is routine,”
YEs! and monitored for those risks! Now you get it.
but anyway this is a long digression.
what is it that we are arguing about?
What point of mine do you disagree with- Is there one?The quote in question is at 8:00 into the video
“These drugs have been used for millions of patients for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, and malaria and malaria prophylaxis. Even to this day. notice that there is no warnings to these patients that they shouldnt take the medication only if you take thsi medication for covid19 does it kill people.”There are only three explanations I can think of to make sense of this statement:
1) He doesnt prescribe it for lupus (and is mistaken (lying?) about the lack of warnings
2) He warns patients and is lying when he says he doesnt.
3) He is a bad doctor.I can’t think of another explanation. can you?
Of the three options I’m being dan lekaf zechus and going with #1
Again, just because a medication has risks is not a reason not to use it (with zinc)
“HE DID NOT LIE, no negative effects were reported.”
He did. did you watch the video?
He said it is given for Lupus and nobody warns about the risks.
This makes him either 1. lying and he hasnt used it for lupus. 2. Lying and he does warn about risks or 3. a bad doctorakuperma
you havent answered my question.
“will raise the annual death rate in the USA from around 8 per 1000, to perhaps 11 per 1000 ”
The deaths in NY in april was 200% higher than a year ago. That is IN SPITE of social distancing. Hospitls came close to breaking (and in some ways did break a bit) . If not for social distancing it would have been far worse.” suggest that perhaps 90% of all people who “get” Cover19 do not get sick”
akuperma
you keep repeating this, I just don’t understand it. Can you please explain to me why that changes anything?say you live in a city of 1,000,000 people If R”L you had to choose a disease to infect the city. would you choose disease a. where 100% get it it and 10,000 die a fatality rate of 0.1% or b. A disease that infects 5,000 people and 5,000 die a fatality rate of 100%
(for purposes of this question lets assume you want as few people dead as possible)
Why does the fact that 90% of those infected w/ the coronavirus don’t get symptoms make things better?a couple of points:
“I’m sure the switch to permanent remote learning can be a possibility, and even be successful.”
I doubt it, it is clear (to me and all I’ve spoken too) that remote learning is not nearly as effective as in person. This is even more true for “weaker” kids that need more individualized attention.
“The question, then, is obvious: Why not move to a cheap small town somewhere and start a new community?”
Schools is but one item keeping people in larger communities, shuls easy access to kosher food are probably the first 2.
“I’m done with high costs of living, high costs of school, traffic, the social and economic pressure of the large communities.”
So go for it!
loweryourtuition
so what is the end game?
when the lockdown started the reason was to “flatten the curve” this was a critical goal. I can attest firsthand that several new york area hospitals came close to breaking, and in some ways they have.
It worked the curve is flat.now what?
If in fact antibodies don;t last more than a few weeks (or don’t confer immunity) then what? A vaccine won;t help (someone should forward Dr. Ditcheks;s report to all those working on a vaccine to get them not to waste their time) We are all doomed. So why continue social distancing?
What am I missing?
Joseph
“It’s a realistic possibility they’ll never come up with a vaccine. Or that it’ll be multiple years before they do”
Of course! I’m not sure why you thought I felt otherwise .
All I said was IF antibodies disappear after 2 weeks. Then a Vaccine won’t help (when/if it is developed)
Amil
“Two weeks later there are no antibodies”
So what is the plan then everyone to stay hunkered down unitl there is a vaccine? And then once there is a vaccine, we all get it every two weeks?
Viruses don’t just disappear, Covid19 will be around for a long long time . If antibodies wane after two weeks (and I’d like the source for that statement please) we may as well go out with a bang and let the kids have a blast of a summer
“Please respect the Dr, he has no motive to lie,”
so why did he?
And again, becasue you keep forgetting this point. This thread is not about whether HCQ works (yes with zinc ) nor whether it is ok for doctors who think it works to prescribe it (with zinc). Of course all doctors should prescribe medications they think work (with zinc) and as I said I prescribed it (with zinc)
” He is giving it short term, and he has encountered no side effects, he said so”
He also said That when given for lupus people don’t warn about side effects.
“Why do you keep forgetting the zinc sulphate?
i havent forgotten once. I’m not sure why you think I have.
“So why are you not shocked?”
I don’t find it shocking when a someone who spends weeks trying to be in the media limelight says “shocking” things to drum up more views. I was a tiny bit surprised that he cannot talk rationally and calmly and has resorted to blatant mistruths (nobody has ever seen complications from HCQ? I prescribed it to a handful of people and one of them already had changes to his EKG) but “shocked” nope, Perhaps disappointing“then it turned out they are more likely to kill than heal.”
This is not true.“He bought the line that this is a hard to catch plague (meaning lockdowns would be effective),”
This is not correct. If it is hard to catch, lockdowns are not needed. Just wash your hands be a bit careful and you’ll be fine.“it turns out to be easy to catch (meaning lockdowns won’t help much)”
Again, This is not true (and I can’t make sense of it, I assume there is a typo. If it is hard to catch there is no reason for lockdown. It is BECAUSE it is so easy to catch that lockdowns were needed. )“, is closer to the annual flu that kills thousands ever year”
This isnt true . For example last year 34,000 died from the flu in the Us Covid 19 has so far killed 87,000 (thats more than 34,000) and this is IN ADDITION to flu deaths.“Trump may be a fool”
This is trueJoseph I’m surprised your so modern.
My much older family minhag is to go to a well and find girls there,
ready “We can all see that you ubiq, change your stance at every turn.”
Nope No change.
From my very first post I made clear I am not opposed to giving HCQ here is the quote “For more moderate patients is questionable, I’d err on the side of giving.”
I then repeated this point approximatly a dozen times to make sure it wasnt getting lost.
I have no idea how this line ““He states its used for lupus with no warnings. What is he talking about?”” Is even a contradiction to above. I use it for lupus but not “without warning”
. I doubt Dr. Zelenko treats many with lupus . Lupus is generally treated (and diagnosed) by a rheumatologist I’ll bet I see more lupus than he does. (Though to be fair in a “small town ” as a General practitioner he may not refer to a specialist as much as physisicans do inn the city, though its not like KJ is in yene ek velt) And yes when prescribing it I always make sure they arent on any QTC prolonging medication, and I warn them if starting a new antibiotic to call me. I send them for yearly eye exams (not directly relevant to short term use for Covid) but he is plain old wrong when he states it is used without warnings he is either: a. lying b. doesnt use it or c. a bad doctor or d. a combination of the above)“All to “prove” that Trump is inefficient and ineffective. ”
We all know Trump is inefficient and ineffective. Whether or not HCQ works will not change that.
At any rate, Trump has since moved on from HCQ,“Why did she whisper?”
Probably becasue she had laryngitis, perhaps due to covid19 ?cent cent
“Of course each life is precious and we try to do whatever we can to save it. ”lol clearly not “every life”
“It’s very likely that the lockdown actually will cause more deaths in addition to the economic harm”
If this is your argment (and it is a reaosnable one) stick to it. Offer real numbers to back it up, not made up ones. But dont fill your posts with nonsensical “filler” like not shutting down for flu or people dying every day regardless (then pretending “every life” is precious”Im not saying you are wrong. And as the ICU’s are no empty some colleagues are arguing to open things up “we will fill our ICU’s with the next wave, save who we can and bury who we can’t” Again, I’m not saying this is wrong per se ( due to reasons mentioned though I find t hard to believe halacha would support sucha n approach) but this is your plan be clear about it: Yes more people will die but less people than protracted economic downturn and delayed cancer treatments etc. .
I also don;t understand the obsession with mortality rate.
Simple question. If you somehow had a choice between two diseases: A. will infect 1,000,000 people out of 1,000, 000 in your community and 10,000 will die r”l ie a 1% fatality rate. B will infect 1000 people and 500 will die ie a 50% fatality rate (eg Ebola) would you say B is worse since fatality rate is 50%“So, okay to treat coronavirus, short-duration medication,”
Was this in dispute?
“Listen to every word, you will be shocked,”
I did . Wasn’t shocked. which part did you find shocking .
Other than the fact that he isn’t complelty knowledgeable (I’m not sure what he means by nobody has seen complications, depending how you define “complications” if you haven’t seen them then you haven’t been checking EKG’s) He states its used for lupus with no warnings. What is he talking about? Everybody who prescribes HCQ is well aware of the risks. I understand he is angry but if he is lying about this. What else is he lying about
Hy I guess you were right. It is a bit shocking
Friend sent me this:
rightwriter you may be on to somethingA lot of people have been asking me what it’s like being on the COVID wards in the hospital, so I figured I’d share what a typical day looks like for me:
6am – Wake up. Roll off of my pile of money that Big Pharma gave me. Softly weep as it doesn’t put a dent in my medical school loans
6:30am – Make breakfast, using only foods from the diet that gives me everlasting life by avoiding all fats, sugars, carbs, and proteins. For details buy my book and check out my shop.
7am – Get to work, load up my syringes with coronavirus before rounds.
8am – See my patients for the day. Administer the medications that the government tells me to. Covertly rub essential oils on the ones I want to get better.
9:30am – Call Bill Gates to check how 5G tower construction is going, hoping for more coronavirus soon. He tells me they’re delayed due to repairs on the towers used to spread the Black Plague. Curse the fact that this is the most efficient way to spread infectious diseases.
10am – One patient tells me he knows “the truth” about coronavirus. I give him a Tdap booster. He becomes autistic in front of my eyes. He’ll never conspire against me again.
11am – Tend to the secret hospital garden of St. John’s wort and ginkgo leaves that we save for rich patients and donors.
12:30pm – Pick up my briefcase of money from payroll, my gift from Pfizer for the incomprehensible profits we make off of the free influenza vaccine given every year.
1pm – Conference call with Dr. Fauci and the lab in Wuhan responsible for manufacturing viruses. Tell them my idea about how an apocalypse-style zombie virus would be a cool one to try for the next batch.
2pm – A patient starts asking me about getting rid of toxins. I ask her if she has a liver and kidneys. She tells me she knows “the truth” about Big Anatomy and that the only way to detoxify herself is to eat nothing but lemon wedges and mayonnaise for weeks. I give her a Tdap booster.
2:45pm – Help the FBI, CIA, and CDC silence the masses. Lament the fact that I can only infringe on one or two of their rights. Oh well, there’s always tomorrow.
4pm – One of my rich patients begins to crash. Laugh as I realize I’ve mismatched her spirit animal and zodiac moon sign. I switch out the Purple Amethyst above her bed for a Tiger’s Eye geode. She stabilizes. I throw some ginkgo leaves on her for good measure
6pm – Go onto YouTube and see coronavirus conspiracy videos everywhere. Curse my all powerful government for how inept they are at keeping people from spreading “the truth”
6:10pm – Go onto Amazon and see that a book about “the truth” is the #1 seller this week. Question the power of my all powerful government. Make a reminder to myself to get more Tdap boosters from the Surgeon General next time we talk.
7pm – Time to go home. Before I leave, sacrifice a goat to Dr. Fauci and say three Hippocratic Oaths.
9pm – Take a contented sigh as I snuggle under the covers made of the tinfoil hats of my enemies, realizing that my 4 years of medical school and 3 years of residency training have been put to good use today.
“SORRY – Not enough Zinc!
You need at least 200mg/day PO for Covid19.”nope I and they don’t. They did fine with 100.
antibias
“I’m really bored with this entire non factual back and forth. ”Are you being forced to read this thread? blink twice if you need rescuing
“So Ubiquitins “Shkoiyach” in his last post about nursing homes”
the shkoyach wasn’t about nursing homes. (I’m not even sure what you thought I was referring to)
It was about unsolicited advice about what someone else would have done in a situation not related to the one I was in.“and much more of what he’s been saying”
I am saying one thing and one thing only: Dr. Zelenko’s patients report does not prove that HCQ helps. That is all.
All the rest is commenting on follow up questions.“he has not researched from a common sense one”
what does that mean? how do you research from common sense perspective?Health just noticed your reply.
“I personally wouldn’t stop it, just have them monitored. It doesn’t have to be in a hospital, some nursing homes can do it.”shkoyach
“I want to know – “What was the dosage of each medication & length of time of the administration?” Zinc – Was it given PO, IV? Also, what type of Zinc – Eg. Zinc Gluconate, Etc.?
400 mg daily HCQ x 7 days (I did not give a loading dose). 100 mg Zinc acetate PO. These were outpts .I saw the Jama study . No surprise, reports what IVe seen first hand (though no mention of Zinc , which (almost?) all the inpatients IVe seen were prescribed
Though worth noting there is a report coming out of NYU titled “Drug Combo with Hydroxychloroquine Promising: NYU Study” which looks at HCQ + Zinc and at least initally reports some + findings.
“When I see someone write 12PM I ask them what they meant.”
Have they ever meant anything but 12 noon?
“Didn’t they wear those surgical masks for their own protection?”
Yes. As mentioned surgical masks do provide some protection to the wearer.
to illustrate (these numbers are not at all accurate just to illustrate a point) Say a mask reduces your odds of catching covid-19 by 25% . If you are seeing many patients with covid 19 (Ie healthcare workers) and your odds of catching this contagious disease with no protection is 100% (for illustrative purposes) then reducing it to 75% is significant.
If you are not a healthcare worker and are not in contact with anyone who has covid19 and are going about the community where your odds of getting it are 10% reducing that to 7.5% is not that significant.
Again just for illustrative purposes, I made up these numbers .
I hit submit too early
furthermore, even regular masks protect the wearer slightly as I said earlier.