WolfishMusings

Wolf – Why do you always repeat the post? Why not just address the poster by name, like I do?

So that other readers don’t have to go searching for the last thing you said. They can see what I’m responding to here in the post.

Bais Din killing the guy is severe pain. You can just imagine the pain of the person’s belly exploding!

Not everyone who commits suicide looks for the easiest way out. Plenty of people hang themselves — which is neither quick nor painless when they could probably find other, less painful and quick ways to go.

If someone wants to die, they aren’t necessarily looking for the quickest, most painless way to go. They might be, but in no way can you say that they always or even generally do.

The Wolf

ad meah v’esrim still works.

Why only wish them 20 more years of life? Why not more?

The Wolf

If a mentally competent Jew wanted to commit suicide, he would try to make sure noone saw him. Why? Why not let Bais Din finish the job, if he doesn’t succeed? Because even though he wants to commit suicide, most humans want to do it with the least amount of pain. If he isn’t successful, he wants to try it again himself; he doesn’t want Bais Din to do it for him, because their method of death was extremely Painful!

Maybe. Sometimes, however, people just need for others to do the job for them. Witness the phenomenon known as suicide-by-cop. I’m sure that being shot by a cop (who usually isn’t intentionally shooting to kill) isn’t terribly pleasant either.

The Wolf

RSRH,

Thank you for the information. So, to make sure I understand you correctly, a Bais Din *could* punish an attempted murderer with death by using extralegal measures. Is that correct?

The Wolf

Maybe the case of Shimon ben Shetach was that there wasn’t even circumstantial evidence, but somehow he knew this guy was a murderer.

He most certainly did have circumstantial evidence. He had very compelling circumstantial evidence.

He saw a person chase another person into an alley. When he got to the alley, he saw the chaser standing over the pursued with a bloody knife in his hand. He expressed his frustration that even though he knew the guy was a murderer, he could not punish him because he did not witness the actual murder — even though it was very clear what happened.

The Wolf

Do we now owe money to these stores for the loss of sales?

No. It’s not the same thing at all.

It’s one thing to tell a friend that they can find a bargain at store X. The owner of store Y has no expectation of making a sale from my friend, and so I owe him no obligation for any sale he may lose.

Here, however, the customer was already in the store (or on the phone, ready to make a purchase). At that point, the store owner would have had a valid expectation of making a sale — which I robbed him of.

The Wolf

They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, for certain crimes that were lacking in the strict judicial proof required, they did so by locking him up.

Perhaps, but that’s a very short-term situation. Your previous post made it sound like they kept people there for years on end (until they felt it was safe…).

Or is that what they used for attempted murderers?

The Wolf

Wolf: I don’t really think you should burn it down. But neither do I think you should let yourself feel guilty for doing the right thing.

I don’t feel guilty. I KNOW I made the right decision. But that doesn’t necessarily absolve me of responsibility for costing him a sale.

The Wolf

don’t we say Habah L’Hargecha Haskeim V’Hargo (if someone’s coming to kill you take the initiative and kill him) so I would assume that sam can now buy a gun and kill joe.

I hope this isn’t halacha L’maaseh

I was strictly concerning myself with Bais Din’s role and possible punishments they could mete out. I did not intend to discuss whether it’s proper or not for the intended victim to take action on his own.

The Wolf

Forget stealing… how about putting people’s lives in danger? Even if the store is deserted, the firemen who come to put out the fire will be put in unnecessary danger.

In any event, I don’t believe you seriously mean that I should burn down his store. You’re just playing devil’s advocate.

The Wolf

One man’s arson is another mans freedom fight.

If you say so. Nonetheless, I’ll pass on your suggestion. While I’m sure I’m OK halachically with my suggestion (even if I don’t have to send him money, there’s nothing that says that I can’t.) while I’m pretty sure that I’m not with yours.

The Wolf