WolfishMusings

But to tell someone to tone it down? No, that I wouldn’t do. They mean it sincerly, and the truth is, we really SHOULD be davening like we’re on fire, so I think you did the right thing by not saying anything

My right to swing my fist, the saying goes, ends at your face. Likewise, the young man in question has a right to daven with as much fervor as he likes, but his right ends when he disturbs other people and prevents them from davening. To paraphrase the gemara, who says his davening is sweeter to HKBH’s than the OP’s? As such, I believe that, in theory, he should be made aware that he is disturbing others and asked to tone it down.

I say in theory because I don’t know the entire situation. It’s possible that, in saying something, he won’t change anyway (or, if he’s perverse, just “up the ante”). Nor do I know if the OP has the option of moving or not. In short, the OP has to do a risk/reward analysis (perhaps speak to a rav he respects for advice?) on whether or not to actually say something.

The Wolf

Are all of M&M’s products kosher?

Yes (assuming you mean Max & Mina’s and not M&M Mars. 🙂 )

The Wolf

Heh. No discussion of ice cream flavors is complete without talking about Max & Mina’s. 🙂

The Wolf

even wolfs famous tuna sandwich

My “famous” tuna sandwich was not about whether one should appreciate the wonderousness of tuna fish which HKBH has given us (which, obviously, we should) or *how* we should eat our tuna fish sandwiches, but rather about whether one has a moral consequence (i.e. give a Din V’cheshbon) for choosing a tuna fish sandwich over an egg salad sandwich.

The Wolf

It is not the matter of being forced, it is that they chose to do so instead of retaining their humanity is what makes it horrific.

By “forced” I meant “forced by starvation,” not forced by one’s fellow man — much the same way that people are “forced” to sometimes jump out of burning buildings.

The Wolf

I would think it is only assur for a man to see his own wife in a bathing suit or go swimming with her if she is a niddah.

I would think that too. Apparently MR seems to feel differently.

The Wolf

I always understood this on a more psychological level. The Jews began their collective destiny as slaves, the ultimate punishment is not only going back to where you started, not only the knowledge that you accomplished nothing in life, but they won’t even want you as slaves. Your life went completely backwards. You end off even more degraded and worthless than you started.

FWIW, That is the way I have always understood it as well.

The Wolf

You wouldn’t make me happier if I don’t know you.

everyone likes to be greeted and smiled to.

Well, I guess not *everyone.* 🙂

The Wolf

The wolf- do you reallty believe that people feel good when you greet them? You wouldn’t make me happier if I don’t know you.

I believe that most people are happier when greeted with a smile, even by a stranger. You, I believe, are in the minority.

As to whether they are happier when greeted by me, personally, is another question altogether. Of that, I sometimes have grave doubts.

The Wolf

Even during the horrors of the Holocaust I never heard of that happening. It seems hard to believe. I wonder if it is meant to be taken literally???

Two completely different types of tragedies.

In the Holocaust, prisoners were generally fed, even if minimally. As a result, (barring some possible extraordinary exceptions that I’m not aware of) no one had to resort to eating children.

In an ancient city under siege, however, there is no one providing even minimum sustenance. In such cases, people are forced to eat *anything* edible… even if it’s each other.

The Wolf

And I can’t imagine eating my child. I would rather kill myself first. I don’t judge them because I can’t imagine a situation where I would think it would be approrpriate.

Sadly, in times of famine, it has been known to happen that people would eat their children. It’s easy to say that you’d rather kill yourself first when your belly is full, but when you’re facing starvation and see your kids suffering the same fate, it may be a different story. May God never present anyone with such a terrible choice again.

The Wolf

People used to go swimming in the nude. When is this sefer from? maybe it’s from that tim frame and therefore it owuld be assur. But a bathing suit is not assur.

If I’m reading MR correctly, the sefer doesn’t talk about swimming but seeing one’s wife. The swimming is extrapolated from that (since people generally don’t wear tznius bathing suits).

But then again, I could be wrong.

In any event, I disagree with him in his entirety on the subject.

The Wolf

The first thing that came to mind was the story about R. Shimon ben Shetach whose pupils purchased a donkey that had a priceless jewel hanging around it’s neck. R. Shimon ordered them to return the jewel since he only purchased the donkey.

However, the more I thought about it, I realized that this case probably isn’t relevant since in R. Shimon’s case, you could make the argument that he purchased only the donkey and not the jewel, which is external and separate from the donkey. Here, however, the negatives themselves were the item sold — it’s not like the negatives were external to something else that was purchased.

Sadly, I’m no talmid chacham, so my ramblings on this are probably meaningless and k’neged halacha anyway. 🙁

The Wolf

i didnt think you were TRYING to aggravate anyone. just being humorous.

Granted, you have good reason to think that based on past history. Nonetheless, that’s not the case this time. Sadly, emotions don’t come out very well in text.

The Wolf

i waited for quite a while to spoil your fun, but no sense needlessly aggravating people.

I wasn’t trying to aggravate anyone. My apologies if that’s the way it came out.

The Wolf

wolf is a baal koreh, that’s why he “talks” during laining.

Nonetheless, I have full confidence that I will one day be taken to task for it and have to give a full Din V’Cheshbon on it. 🙁

The Wolf

please explain how to use em tags(ive asked before no one answered) i would greatly appreciate it.

<em>Your text here</em>

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it doesn’t sound like undressed means dressed in an untznius fashion

If you say so. Not having seen the sefer he’s quoting from, I can only guess at what he means. Since people usually go swimming in a bathing suit and he’s saying it’s assur based on that sefer, I concluded that he meant that it’s assur to see one’s wife in a bathing suit (or, by extension, in any non-tznius fashion). That was my understanding of his statement. Nonetheless, I could be wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time.

The Wolf

Squeak,

Thanks for the clarification. As I said, not all of us are talmidei chachamim. Some of us (like me) are just plain stupid.

Nonetheless, I’m not sure I see how applying this to our topic changes anything.

The Mishna says (my paraphrase): Don’t talk excessively with a woman. This means your wife, kal v’chomer another woman.

Applying your principle, the restrictions against a wife cannot be stronger than those regarding another woman — but they can be equal, no?

The Wolf

ummmm. a bathing suit means she is dressed

To be fair, I think he means “dressed in a tznius fashion.”

The Wolf

If it bothers you that much stop talking. Or are you happier being a hipocrit who is mad at people for talking when you do it yourself.

So youll just answer for it on the yom hadin. I wouldnt want to be you then.

As much as I usually disagree with you, on this you are 100% right. I am a hypocrite in this regard and I have no doubt that I will have to answer to the Ultimate Judge for my sin of talking and disturbing people during krias HaTorah one day. Teshuva cannot help me because I don’t really regret it. 🙁

The Wolf

Naturally, this only applies if you don’t actually kill the person you’re eating. You can’t, however, murder someone for food.

The Wolf

Wolf – The proposal related to knees and elbows, insofar as the public tochocho is concerned. The discussion only relates to the public tochocho, as defined in the Sefer Hachinuch.

So, please translate for the idiots among us (like me). Does that mean that you’d leave people alone provided their knees and elbows were covered? And anything else is safe from public shaming (even if you don’t agree with it?)

The Wolf

7 years is not a lot of time

You don’t think living somewhere for seven years is long enough to form a reasonable opinion about the place??

Or am I misunderstanding you?

The Wolf

Uncovered knees or elbows is a standard.

I’m not asking for *a* standard… I’m asking for *the* standard. The difference is this:

If uncovered knees and elbows are “the standard” then anything else beyond it is okay. Tight clothes? Red? No stockings? And so on.

In other words, what I’m looking for is this: what things will you NOT look at when determining who is a “sinner?” What are ALL the things that you will be looking at when making this determination.

The Wolf