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“So now davening b’zman, not eating before davening, sleeping in the succah etc. are mistaken behaviors which chassidus came to fix???”
That is not what I said.
“The sad irony is that they preach acceptance and anti-isolationism when they are [very intentionally] sheltering the unlearned masses from learning any non-Chabad (mainstream) shittahs. And, if someone by chance learns one, they have to spin it around eg. “we daven with more kavanah than everyone else because we eat first and miss zman hatefilla”, “we’re careful to not sleep in the Sukkah”, etc. We can laugh it off, but, unfortunately, people in remote areas end up really believing these things.”
I am mamesh happy that the accusations against the behavior of Lubavitcher chassidim are true and are the same as accusations made by misnagdim harishonim against chassidim harishonim (play on words duh) which were true. It is an incontrovertible fact that chassidus came to correct mistaken things which had worked their way to in to common Jewish practice, belief, and behavior, and to cure those machalos. The Baal Shem Tov and his students, and their students did not come to forge a path that should also be acceptable for those who choose to follow it. They came to change the entire nature of the worldwide Jewish community and its observances.
The reason chassidim teach that Judaism IS chassidus and is because that is the shita of the Baal Shem Tov.
On a different point: Acceptance does not mean agreeing. A person can love another Jew and accept him for who he is, judgmentally, but not agree with him. This is a mistake some of you make. You say “Chabad says they love and accept everyone but then they say they are exclusively right.” Yes, the same way we tell an ignoramus who is doing the wrong thing that he is wrong, we tell a yeshiva bochur, a yungerman, a rosh yeshiva, etc etc that he is wrong.
And that is the same way every modern orthodox Jew thinks modern orthodoxy is what is right for the world, and the same way every bochur sitting in Brisk, and Mir, and BMG etc think that their Judaism is what is right for the world.
And none of them entertain a shidduch from the opposite group, and none of them “hold” of the opposite group etc etc etc and none of that is lacking from love and acceptance.
When a person is sincerely convinced that he has the truth there is no wonder that he wants to share it with his brother.
Wolfish,
Sorry for misunderstanding. My comments were not directed at you, they were directed at a Lubavitch who I believe was being misleading. In that context I believe your questions fall away as it is not you I was trying to convince of anything, nor accusing of anything. Also I used the word chassidim contextually to mean Lubavitchers.
“5ish: Would that indicate that if the current holder of Nasi/Moshiach is a Litvak or Sephardi, ChabadShlucha and every other Lubavitcher with her beliefs would have to become a Litvak or Sephardi?”
Are you asking me if they should daven Nusach Ashkenaz or eat rice on pesach or are you asking me if they would obligated to follow the directives and hadracha of that person? If the latter, then yes.
Obviously it would need not to contradict other things brought in Chassidus to be a logical conclusion. I.E. it could not be that someone who is opposed to the shitta of Chassidus in general, or Chabad Chassidus in particular, could be the Nasi Hador because that is contraindicated in Chassidus. That being the case, it would not logically make sense for a person to make a decision based on Chassidus to make a decision that is against Chassidus. So there would need to be some level of internal consistency.
All of the above is purely hypothetical because that is not really what most Lubavitchers believe.
Chabad websites aren’t worth commenting on because each one of them is run by someone with a clear agenda. If you make a really good point for the “wrong team” they don’t show what you wrote.
Also, yes it is almost Yud Tes Kislev but it IS Yud Kislev.
“presenting a religious doctrine whos only base is that the leader himself told you to believe it defies logic, and arguably is halachically problematic.”
I don’t think it defies logic. Is it going to sound not normal to people who grow up with a conflicting world view? Yes. But defies logic? No. There are rational arguments that could be made to support such a thing.
Obviously though this is not the forum to present ideas that are dependent on large foundations, when the likelihood of presenting and communicating such a foundation effectively is not likely.
As an aside, I am shocked by the tone and language in use in this thread in general and by people from all sides and backgrounds. There are a lot of you who are not so interested in having a discussion, but more interested in grinding your axes about various things. There is no point in screaming past each other, other than ultimately wasteful self gratification.
Its the end of Rambam’s Hilchos Melachim Umilchamoseyhem where The Rambam outlines the halachos of who can be Moshiach. I am not sure why OP felt the necessity to paste it here.
@Syag. I no doubt understand that that is something difficult for people to understand which is why I ordinarily am not one to have such discussions. However, when a Lubavitcher comes along and says misleading things I believe it is absolutely necessary to delineate things in order to prevent the falsification of The Rebbe’s Torah. The fact that a Lubavitcher can hide their head in the sand, and G-d forbid pull the wool over other people’s eyes is a frightening and rebellious act. Rachmana Letzlan, because of these types of behaviors there are well meaning chassidim who are actually confused and actually believe false things about The Rebbe and what The Rebbe says. The Rebbe is The Rebbe and The Rebbe’s Torah is the The Rebbe’s Torah and The Rebbe can stand on his words and doesn’t need anyone to come and twist it this way or that way to him look better, G-d forbid.
Who said we support the State of Israel? GEEEEEVVVVAAAAAAAAALLLLLDDDDDDDDDDDD.
Why don’t you try not talking out of both sides of your mouth for once. Lubavitcher chassidim believe The Rebbe is Moshiach because The Rebbe teaches that The Rebbe is Moshiach. Period and of sentence full stop. Stop obscuring The Rebbe’s torah by pretending like you don’t understand simple logic and that chassidim made up that The Rebbe is moshiach because chassidim are supposed to feel that about their rebbe etc. The Rebbe said clearly that the Nasi Hador is Moshiach, and very clearly referred to himself as such. The reason he was not succeeded by any other rebbe or nasi is because he said that his generation is the last generation, and defined generations as being the leadership times of Nesiim.
Can I safely assume that @chabadshlucha never answered the questions I posed in the beginning of the thread?
Chabadshlucha I eagerly await your answers to my questions. Obviously you would not mislead the public about The Rebbe’s teachings, so I am sure you must have gevaldig answers.
@Joseph
The reason there is no Rebbe after The Rebbe is because The Rebbe said he is the final leader of Chabad. He said in his very first discourse that there were six generations which preceded him, i.e. The Baal Hatanya, The Mitteler Rebbe, The Tzemach Tzedek etc. and that the 7th generation is the final generation and will draw down the shechina into the lowest world and will greet moshiach.The Rebbe explicitly said the Nasi shebedor is the Moshiach shebedor, and he aknowledged that he was the Nasi. The Rebbe also explicitly said that the memaleh makom contains all of the qualities of the previous Nasi plus more. The Rebbe also referred to himself as being the last Nasi.
The Rebbe also said Moshiach is alive in this world and it is a mitzvah to be mekusher to him.
If somehow you believe that The Rebbe was not the last Nasi, and is therefore not by his definition Moshiach, then if you were truly a chossid of The Rebbe you would follow his directive to seek out and become a chossid of the new Nasi, who by The Rebbe’s definition is currently holding the office of Moshiach of the Generations.
Please reconcile your above stated opinions with the fact that neither you, nor anyone accepted in mainstream Chabad, have sought out or bound yourselves to a new Rebbe.
?????
Siyag, unless I missed something, what offensive was said about Baleei Teshuva? Most frum people i know, whether they be yeshivish guys, lubavitchers, modern orthodox, etc etc don’t marry people from different backgrounds than them.
“Having ahavas Yisroel for chilonim does not exempt you from having to have ahavas Yisroel for the rest of the frum world.”
Why do you think Chabad doesn’t have ahavas yisroel for the frum world?
“Do you think that the rest of the oilam DON’T DO ANYTHING? We learn all day without needing your suggestions that we should learn your seforim as well!”
So you don’t want us to suggest what you should learn, but you seem to believe really strongly that you should suggest to us what to learn? That seem’s pretty hypocritical to me.
“70 facets of the Torah” does not mean that in every issue there will always be various acceptable opinions. There is always an ebb and flow of arguments which diversify and are eventually unified. Just like Shammi and Hillel and their students respectively were great scholars and holy people, does not mean we say “shivim panim latorah, and I choose to follow beis shammai” and the same can be said for many machlokesin throughout all of Jewish history. The fact is that The Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid, and some (if not all) of their successors believed that Chassidus is THE WAY not A WAY, and the ideal derech for klal yisroel and all Jews is Chassidus. The Baal Hatanya and his successors believed this and went to great length to spread Chassidus as widely as possible.
Most of the arguments being advanced by “litvisherchossid” are the very same arguments which were made against the Besht, and against the Maggid, and against every rebbe and group of chassidim who showed up in any town in Europe. You are reiterating two hundred year old arguments of holy misnagdim, and unholy maskilim. That is certainly your right, but let us not play pretend like Lubavitcher chassidim suddenly started to act in a certain way.
You never heard of people looking in to yichus? You never heard of people wanting to marry people with similar life experiences and upbringing? You think rabbinical hierarchies don’t exist in the world? You think other Jews don’t think certain issues are core to religion and are correct to the exclusion of others opinions? You don’t know Jews who hold that the yeshiva/kollel lifestyle is a chiyuv? Don’t know anyone who says Zionism is assur? Kanois is mandatory? You have to serve in the Israeli army because it’s a mitzvah? There are all sorts of hashkafos and halachic opinions that are propagated by rabbonim as being a chiyuv on all Jews. So Chabad holds that a person has to learn Chabad chassidus.
Get your head out of the sand man. L’chaim!
Joseph, I did not mean that at all. I was saying that lefi the shita of the earlier poster, who said chassidim and litvaks are the same, it would make sense to call only Lubavitcher chassidim, and not only NOT Lubavitchers chassidim. Sorry for the confusion. The split in Chassidus is nothing new and goes back to the talmidim of the Maggid. The Baal Hatanya held that it is necessary for every person to study pnimiyus hatorah in order to do his own Avodah to reveal the law and awe in his heart for Hashem which will cause him to perform Mitzvos and learn Torah in the proper way. He was opposed by R’ Avrohom Kalisker, The Lechovitsher, The Stoliner, R’ Baruch Mezhibuzher, among other holy and saintly Jews who had a different derech. On the opposite extreme is the chassidus which comes primarily from students of the Noam Elimelech, who stressed that pnimiyus hatorah was mainly for higher ranking individuals, and rank and file chassidim and others are meant to connect to Hashem through being inspired by the Tzaddik and though his blessings for offspring, life, and sustenance. Despite these differences there are many things which all Chassidim have in common. I suspect the reason that many people think things are not too different between misnagdim and chassidim is due to them not being very familiar with the inner workings of chassidic courts and the chassidic lifestyle. Half of these things that people are making accusations as if they are just things Lubavitchers do, are things that are done in other courts. You all just do not know because other courts are insular and Chabad is open for the whole world to see.
I think it is pretty funny that someone above wrote that since chassidim and misnagdim are pretty much the same, and only Chabad is different, therefore when the litvisher oilem says chassidim they mean not Chabad. Obviously, it should be fakert. Since Chabad have stayed the course of Chassidus, and everyone else became Misnagdim but with better kugel, it , it turns out Chassidim and Chassidus more aptly describes Chabad.
You must not have learnt enough greek philosophy then. Also the Rambam writes explicitly that the sefer is not meant to be consumed for the masses.
The Moreh Nevuchim is a sefer which comes to answer questions which come from or are dealt with in greek philosophy. It is incredibly difficult to understand without first having a background in greek philosophy. Afaik, most yeshiva bochurim do not have a background in greek philosophy and are not bothered by questions discussed in greek philosophy, so what would be the purpose of studying it????
The Rebbe lived in 770 after The Rebbitzen passed away. His bed was moved in to his office and he stayed there. Agav, the shul is not really at the address 770 is had/has a different address but is attached. 770 is the building on the right which contains the small zal (beis medrash) The Rebbe’s office, and The Frierdiker Rebbe’s living quarters etc. These are attached by stairs to the basement shul which most people will recognize from videos of the farbrengens (excepting the ones in the early years which took place in the small zal, and a few times at different venues). Above the basement shul are the offices of Merkaz L’Inyonie Chinuch etc.
I can not believe I am writing this because it seems to be so obvious, but lack of evidence for something (especially your lack of anecdotal evidence) is not proof that something does not exist. I am very glad for you that in your circles you have not run in to any drug use and then you are so disconnected that you think that no one with a drug problem passes your scrutinizing eye, because it is so easy and obvious to know who is on drugs, but I know from personal experience and from friends and family members that even in the holy city of Baltimore there is a fire burning. I beg you wholeheartedly do not blind your own eyes because being naive will only make the problem worse. I know rachmana letzlan of individuals who’s children perished in their own homes and the parents “Never even had any clue our son was doing drugs.” Just because you can not pick out the people around you who have horrible anguish hidden in their heart and have fallen into a trap that has set the path to a living hell in front of them, does not mean it is not happening in your very own surroundings.
Dolphina:
G-d commands us to rebuke wayward Jews and return them to the path of righteousness. Your idea that no one should judge others because they themselves have also sinned is an idea which comes from Yoshke and is not a part of Judaism. While it is true that one should not cast aspersion on Jews, it is also true that as a nation we are all responsible for one another and when there are problems which are endemic to a significant portion of Klal Yisroel, we have a responsibility to help them navigate to the right path regardless of if they want to or not.
“Pashut Halacha from Chazal is that any milk that came without the oversight of a Yid is considered Cholov Akum, and therefore treif, even if it is cow’s milk. ”
Rav Moshe holds that the problem of Chalav Akum is not that the milk is treif, but that there is a chashash that it is treif.
You must be very HOLY HOLY HOLY to make such proclamations “Hashemisreading”
Apushatayid: I am just going to wait for Moshiach’s robodialer to call me.
“No. I’m leveling sarcasm at those who naively believe eliyahu hanavi needs a website or social media to get out their message. your response abot a top level domain .torah only feeds the stupid notion that it is even necessary.”
Considering the RAMBAM holds that there will be nothing supernatural about the redemption, it is entirely possible, that Moshiach would use modern technology to communicate with people around the globe.
GH: The Medina is not all about protecting the lives of its citizens. If that were the case, decisions would be made by Generals and officers who are in the field, not politicians and old generals with political aspirations who sit at fancy desks.
Avi K, regarding your statement that only the three cardinal sins are yehrag vlo yavor:
The reason one would hold that the oaths are yehrag vlo yavor is because the ideas encompassed by the oaths constitute absolute kefira, and denying Hashem is yehrag vlo yavor.
It is true that you need support. Unfortunately, you most likely need a different type of support than you think. You straight away absolve yourself of blame saying frei out for all sorts of reasons, but you and other parents are not to blame. You need to get real. In an overwhelming percentage of cases the reason children leave the frum lifestyle is because of their experiences at home and at school. And as far as school is concerned, that is ultimately the achrayus of the parents too. The number one thing you should be doing is reaching out for support, to someone that can help you and your spouse examine what went wrong and how iyH you can fix it. I hope it is not too late for you but if you bury your head in the sand you will most likely lose your child. Take it fromsomeone who fried out and fell to low places and who’s friends all did the same, and who now works with young men and women who are themselves falling through the cracks rachmana letzlan because their parents go around looking for everyone and everything to blame but won’t accept responsibility that they are the real problem.
Hatzlacha.
Anything which inhibits or interferes with Avodas Hashem is the Yetzer Hara.
If guilt makes you feel sad and potentially lackadaisical for example someone says “Oh i did such a terrible thing I am so lowly how can someone like me present himself before God” then this guilt is the yetzer hara.
If guilt causes you bitterness such that you weep and say “God is so awesome, it is terrible that I have no fulfilled his will, it is imperative that I mend my wicked ways and cleave to him” then this guilt is a good thing.
There are many different opinions on whether or not one should focus on guilt because of the tendency, especially in our generation for guilty people to become depressed.
The Alter Rebbe of Chabad, in his book of advice on divine service Likutei Amarim, otherwise popularly known as the “Tanya” advises that a person should set aside certain times occasionally to make an accounting of the soul and feel bitter about his or her lowly position, but otherwise not to let one’s self be plagued by guilt.
See here for an english adaption of Likutei Amarim Chapters 26 – 28 :
Sorry, no links
The above is being provided as a reference. I recommend if possible that the relevant texts be learned inside, with someone who is initiated in these teachings. The reader ought not to make any assumptions or derivations from limited materials and should always consult a qualified rabbi or mentor.
Chassidus Chabad today is the logical extension of itself from generation to generation dating to the Admor Hazaken.
Today as in yesteryear Chassidus Chabad is focused on personal avoda through the refinement of character via the subjugation of the emotive attributes to the intellectual attributes. This is accomplished through intellectual meditation on how Divinity (elokus) permeates all the worlds, and how all the worlds are as naught before the Holy One Blessed Be He.
The person who will pick up the gemara on my behalf will be in the office, yes.
On a side note: Baruch Hashem I am getting much use from the gemara. I really enjoy that if I have difficulties making a laining, there is a clear translation, but I do not “accidently” read too much of an explanation of the sugya like I would be inclined to “accidently” do with Artscroll.No worries!
Hashgacha Pratis.
Same plan. Just give to security guard and say it is for room 305.
Thanks!
Whether or not the school arranged to get the girls back to school does not change the fact that they owe teachers months of back pay. Having people work and not paying them is stealing.
It is forbidden to shave even when it is not the omer. In the early 1900s many bochurim succumbed to this serious disease because they feared that since most of the girls were already influenced by the haskala they would not marry bochurim with beards. The Chofetz Chaim responded that a bochur should not worry that the girl will not marry him because of his beard, because if she will not marry him it must be she is not his basheret. Because it can not be that a person would be required to do an aveirah in order to marry his basheret, and would be deprived of his basheret for keeping torah and mitzvos.
You are correct, she should not be allowed to marry a Zionist. But there are a lot of things people are not allowed to do that there is no pragmatic way to stop them.
Seeing as Zionism is not Judaism, I would be very alarmed if one of my children were intending to marry someone who is not practicing Judaism. That being said, not always is the correct response to try to exert control as this may have even greater disastrous consequences r”l
What kind of Mitzvah is it to teach children to ransom things and act a stumbling block towards other’s fulfilling a mitzvah??????
Yekke, I was not referring to specifically you. I was referring to a dispute where people talk past each other because they are using the same words for different meanings OR they view things as a zero sum game. There is no stirah between loving the wicked son, and hating evil.
I think some of you confuse the ideas of unconditional love and unconditional acceptance. You can love someone unconditionally but say “What you are doing is wrong, I do not accept it, and you need to change your evil ways.”
“Why do you think that chabad has an exclusive on shabbos and Judaism?”
Chabad has created an infrastructure and successfully marketed towards masses of people who were otherwise unengaged by any other Jewish groups.
Rav Tzadok M’Lublin and The Lubavitcher Rebbe both make the following inference. We tell the wicked son “If you had been in Egypt you would not have been redeemed” but, since the Jewish people were redeemed and received the Torah, now you are a Jew and will always be a Jew and are never too far gone to do teshuva.
Zeicher Zecher joke. lol.
If you would like to condemn the protests based on what an individual at them did then let us look at it the other way. Some of the people who oppose these protests are anti-religious. How can you support opposing protests then?
Interesting quote of R’ Weinberg. This is very similar to something which the Lubavitcher Rebbe said many times “One who knows alef must teach alef, one who knows beis must teach beis”
Why is every single thread here somehow about Rebshidduch?
SBM You must be a GAON ATZUM If you are knowledgeable enough to disagree with the modern expression of the psak of the Baal Hatanya and have a nuanced understanding of the Rishonim to disagree with him in favor of the “Geoni Ashkenaz” in their interpretation!
Sorry guys I did not notice the activity. You can of course drop it off in the same place!