Always_Ask_Questions

I used to be annoyed by people scrolling through their prayers. But now I also found phone siddur useful for outside minyanim… looking for shabbos edition, though.

My favorite mahzorim are two pre-WW1 from different sides of the family, one Vilna, one Wien … good feeling that you follow your predecessors in davening. Wien one is much thinner – less piyutim and much better, thinner, paper.

Syag, sorry for not being clear. I wanted to highlight that one family whom I know for a long long time – who first did not read the directions (or possibly disregarded them), and then refused to follow them when I asked them (extremely nicely). All they needed was to hop into the car and get the kid home. They had someone sitting with the rest of the kids.

Re: when you say “our doctors”, maybe you can say what your doctors say specifically.

My questions about psak is generally towards people’s public behaviors, not medical decisions. Usually directed at people who bring mysterious quotes from websites, not you. I am pretty sure those are not from their doctors.

> chasan lost his balance.

RebE, maybe add safety grips attached to the table? Maybe this procedure is a moshal for the upcoming married life – treated as a King, but turbulence ahead? So, chasanim need to learn how to keep their balance.

rw > fact that CDC deleted from their own website the info of how long vaccines are tested (10-15 years)

I looked at the original article with these words. They list all steps in vaccine development, and the value of Warp Speed was able to compress all of them. The site says that the final phase 3 trial takes about 60K people, and Pfizer had 44K – close enough. As this is the final step proving efficacy and and safety, there is no reason to worry about quality of previous steps. Just tells you how fast research can happen when government gets out of the way.

Syag > vaccine did not do anything to prevent transmission

factual correction: vaccine does reduce transmission, although less than severe disease – especially for variants. 7x reduction for the famous Phase 3 trials was for transmission. Event in question was pre-Delta. I don’t plan to discuss details of organizer motivation, as well as others. I just brought a minor detail that struck me as totally oblivious – you are told of the rules, it would take 15 minutes to comply, and you refuse. Pre-covid, this would be boorish behavior that would just end up with extra shnitsel consumed. Start appreciating all the gemorahs discussing a thought put into every act done correctly – drinking reviis with 2, not 1, not 3, gulps. If you learn to be careful with every action, then you can easily adjust to ever-changing reality.

Gadol, tru, if I recall correctly, the methods employed by T’Ch might have involved risk to them (other than in carrying kallah) rather than to the chatan.

Avram, baalas simcha was very nervous overall, and justifiably knowing where she is. She arranged this at a safest, largest, multi-room place with other precautions and this was at the lowest pre-delta level. We came to support and help her as much/little as we could. Don’t regret coming, but can’t un-see people who were showing kavod to a friend by endangering her. I don’t know, of course, who knew how much. On a positive side, one antivaxxer did comply in order to attend. So, “simcha mandates” might work.

UJM, thanks for the reference. They compute ER visit and hospitalization reductions of 2 and 3 doses separately for Delta and Omicron periods comparing with unvaccinated. This is done for all mRNA vaccines after correcting for patient and virus prevalence parameters, so looks pretty solid.

Bottom line: 4x reduction in hospitalization at about 5 months and, presumably, higher for deaths (in all data, reduction increases with severity – from infection to ER to hospitalization to deaths).

Here is my summary from their Table 2 on hospitalization:
months <2 2-3 4 >=4 >= 5
Delta 2 doses 17x 11x 10x 5.5
Omicron 2 doses 3.5 3 2.5 2
Delta 3 doses 25x 14x 4x
Omicron 3 doses 11x 8x 4.5x

One question I have on such research is not taking “natural immunity” into account when counting “unvaccinated”. As they would be already more likely to be infected than those with vaccines, this might underestimate the estimate of the vaccine. I do not see this mentioned in the article.

A Rav told me that he advises hasanim to break the glass with the heel to avoid a trauma.

We have numerous cases in Gemorah when a practice was called off due to freak cases that happened.
For example, a cohen breaking a leg when running to get avodah. Apparently, they did not wait for the second case.

Maybe there were close calls before with cohanim pushing each other? For many dangerous events, close calls are a good predictor. For example, number of sudden stops when driving is a good predictor of someone who might end in an accident. So, think of close calls and correct your middos accordingly.

re: mandates. here is my thinking:
Private businesses should be able to have mandates legally. Should they do that? Businesses with a lot of low-level personnel, like hotels, should first do small-scale incentives: pay for vaccination, make non-vaxxed pay for weekly tests, transfer them to positions were they don’t interact with public. For businesses requiring skilled personnel, I personally would not trust judgment of those who do not vaccinate or mask and will use this as a good excuse to fire them.

Public/medical: should be able to mandate where it is materially affects public safety: nurses, teachers. firefighters may sleep at the fire station unvaxed if they prefer. Again, weekly or twice weekly testing might be enough. Maybe let these teachers teach online and for sure disclose their status to parents, whatever HIPPA says.

In all cases, if it can be shown at some point, or at some location, that being unvaxed does not affect safety anymore (low transmission level, high immunity, mild variant), no mandate required. I would not be hiring them though and so I presume many others for the lack of judgment.

again, open another lab. Or someone else will.

I mean that honest work requires time and effort contrary to the op view. Specifically, from my limited experience, you need to deal with renters destroying their sewage systems, keeping pipes frozen, parking illegally, not paying rent, and worse. Plus managing plumbers and electricians making sure they come on time and drill the right apartment. If you are smart, you can eventually get reliable workers, dependable tenants, and then do what the op suggests

Emes, Trump was elected as an opposition to the elite opinion. Different people meant different things, of course. Current administration is either continuing same policies without acknowledging: vaccines, china boycott; or doing something unfortunate and then acknowledging continuity; Afghanistan; or trying to publicly reversing those policies: oil, Russia leading to more disasters, or trying to spend as much as they can fighting future disasters ignoring current ones. Are you one of 30% of people who enjoy it?

Rw, you are trying to build a logical argument that I am trying to understand. Unfortunately, you start with “vaccines don’t work” which is not supported by facts, demonstrated by hundreds of papers from multiple countries. I understand when you say “natural immunity” is better, for example. This is a point to which one can respond. But what is your point of saying things out of thin air, I am not sure.

jackk > can the republicans who have been fighting a war against mask and vaccine mandates stop blaming the democrats when the mandates get lifted?

I think everyone will continue exploiting covid for political reasons whether we like it or not. Start by repeatedly praising Trump administration for vaccine development and hope that he will respond in kind.

Note that we are doing worse under the D- administration. I have 9 developed countries on my list including US. As of Feb 2021, US was 3rd worst on deaths (UK, Italy were worse), 15% higher than the median. Starting from then to now, US is 2nd worst (after Poland) – 60% higher than the median for that time period! US and Poland – only ones with more deaths in 2nd year than first.

Vaccine doses – again, 2nd worst, only Poland worse.

Excess mortality – 2020 Spring – lower than others; winter 2020 – about same; Sep 2021 – Delta – higher than all others, including Poland.

So, bottom lines, if you can influence any democrats – try to affect what your leadership is not doing instead of fighting political battles. Saying right slogans does not help much.

Ohevet > Why call those who do want boosters- derogatory names. That isnt the Torah way.

While I agree with your sentiment, I am not sure these posters care much about Torah way. They would jump on any posting about Fauci, but when I’ve asked them repeatedly what their sources are, what posek approves such behavior – I don’t think I ever saw an answer. I am not sure what brought them to a Jewish site.

jackk, Chagigah is also talking about 3 simanim of a shoteh:
walking at night by himself (putting himself in danger for no reason and, maybe figuratively, staying in the dark from facts)
sleeping in the cemetery (not accepting norms of behavior?)
tearing clothes apart (refusing bodily protection and again behavioral norms)

Also people with foul odor are exempt – not because of themselves but because they are annoying others.

still, I don’t think we will have vaccination clinics at Beis Hamikdash. Just once during yomim norayim – mi b’magefa …

HaKatan, you are using a hyperbole when comparing our current situation to galus evsektsia, or you do not know wekk what R Wasserman and others faced. Chofetz Chaim was later lamenting that he ran away from Soviet Russia – he realized that all Rabbis who left for Poland and Lita saved themselves but abandoned the rest of the Jews: remnants of whom came recently as “soviet Jews” that includes Lieberman. Whatever the damage the latter is causing to the observant community in Israel – he moved to Israel; he cares about it; his son is observant. He is more successful, Jewish-wise, to 90% of other Jews who disappeared in Russia physically and spiritually. And he may even help Yidden in ISrael to learn how to earn parnosah and become independent of Zionist government. Gam zu l’tova.

Avira,
I agree with you that being rachman to the cruel with lead to the opposite, etc. And have no problem with your example on competition and innate desire to defend. I don’t think though that the choice is usually that sharp. I often see gratuitous rudeness as an expression of Judaism, when one could simply discuss the underlying issue instead of focusing on personalities.

Mussar teaches us to verify personal biases. Example: R Meltzer was not sure whether to write a recommendation to a student. He wrote it and then threw it away. Why? He was afraid that a consideration of saving time/effort was affecting his decision. If such a refined person questions his own judgment, so should we. So, if I or you have a tendency to judge people or groups of people, then you need to double-check before coming to a conclusion.

Syag > crickets
I apologize for stepping away from the screen!

> If parents were found to be inflicting these types of damage on their kids, the authorities would have been called.

I hear same sentiment from coworkers who have kids in public schools and they are waiting for the day to take masks from kids, indeed. I do not know what is the right balance there. I resolved the issue personally with kids learning online, so they are least masked and vaccinated in the whole country; gave others info about online options; lobbied my local senator to increase public online options (he eventually said that local interests do not allow); and I consulted a couple of schools on doing ventilation (maybe more important than masking), not sure how public schools handle that.

As to those in schools, I am not sure what is the damage to kids form masks, you probably know better. Kids are known to be resilient in general, and I often see kids wearing masks with more skills than their parents. And I am sure there are kids that were borderline before and get fully out of control now. As you are saying, hopefully this is water under the bridge and things are getting better now.

Gadol > These sad individuals typically were angry underachievers prior to Covid and now have a “new” issue to to grab

Not in my observation. Many were for me fellow daveners, who did not exhibit more psychological problems than others, while consuming cholent. Maybe it is just because I did not know them well enough. Most people whom I considered in high regard behaved reasonably. There is also a category, similar to what you describe, generally people you can share cholent with who might gripe about something unreasonably, but not considered danger to people around them. I encountered one at a simcha, where there was a specific request to only have vaccinated people (due to a medical condition of the baalas simcha, that many might not have known about) – that, at the time, meant no children. Hundreds of people followed the request, while generally not adhering to any precautions, including ambushing the lady who was trying to avoid that. Then, I see a family with a kid. After consulting baalas simcha, I kindly informed them, thinking they can take the kid home 10 minutes away and not miss anything. They angrily replied – we did not notice that on the invite and moved hurriedly towards the buffet.

>> seems to me the covid was just a “practice run” for what they have coming next down the line.
…
>> y I was on the train wo a mask and these crazy masked people gave me dirty looks

Syag, are you comfortable with the guys like that?

ujm,
two notes:
1) this is for wuhan vaccine v. omicron, and large number of antibodies are needed to defend against a different variant as each antibody/vaccine encounter is less successful. Omicron vaccines are currently in phase 3 testing.

2) people generally acquire long-term immunity (T-cells, etc – beyond antibodies circulating in blood) to coronaviruses by encountered them multiple times during childhood. That is, we still get infected by “common cold” but with no serious damage.

So, presumably and logically, every encounter with either covid or a vaccine moves us towards that goal. According to many, that now include CDC, these encounters need to have some time between them, like two months. You surely want first several encounters to be vaccine and not covid to avoid possible damage. British results on side effects show 2 case of myocarditis/million for both Pfizer 2nd dose and booster, so no increased risk. So, boosters seem to be not controversial at least for population 40+ y.o. So, 4 months is too much, but presumably 6-12 month separate boosters (esp if tuned for the current variant) will make most of the adults fully safe from the “endemic” covid.

Goldilocks > Let’s all face up to the facts:

You are probably right about entrenched opinions, and it is a sad fact that people follow “beliefs” here rather than trying to find out information. I think psychologists call this “crystallization” – early on information trumps on the further one. Does anyone have an insight what was typical initial information that caused people to conclude that masks are worthless? Was it that they didn’t like it first and then found justification? something they read or heard from friends? something they first “figured out” themselves, like “a small virus will not be stopped by a large filter, obviously” ….

the second interesting part that anti-maskers often point fingers to cloth or even surgical masks –
see they don’t work, only K/N-95s do! I would think that they will then start wearing K-95, but not their thinking seem to stop right there – “see they are wrong”.

Syag, I saw some serious academic anti-maskers at Cato referring to the same Bangladesh study we discussed here as a more authoritative one among a long list. They report it though in a distorted way, like “only 0.0x reduction”, when relative reduction is 20% … I emailed a polite technical message to one of the authors with a PhD and a Harvard affiliation but did not hear back.

Based on this and other similar readings, I dare to say if you were reading secondary sources that quote scientific articles in a serious-looking way on such a hot topic, you may be fooled (either way, depending what you are reading).