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An interesting idea, but to use a word of yester-year, this will be “inequitable” – only rich girls will marry early. Also, punishments rarely work. How about paying (kollel, for example) to yeshiva bochrim who marry older girls? I am hesitant to suggest for them to marry earlier, because most not ready for real life at the age they marry now.
Another consideration – maybe definition of the “community” is part of the problem? Do people prefer t marry within the same chasidut or “yeshiva velt”. How about going out a little bit – looking at girls who did not hit important seminaries, but might be coming from ehrliche observant families?
ard > yes you are obligated to listen to the satmar rebbe, you may have another gadol whom you follow but you still have to listen to the satmar rebbe, thats like saying i dont have to listen to r’ ovadia yosef since im not sefardi
Ard, what do you mean by “listen”? I personally think we should listen to a range of opinions from Satmar Rebbe to R Soloveitchik and in between, especially on issues of national importance. Think how Jews confronted modernity 200 years ago – with confusion and, as we see now, inadequate response (not to blame those who were confronted by the enormous challenge, of course). By now, we are better prepared, having several ways to respond. Which of these ways is the best and do they need further improvement? We might be able to answer that in another 200 years, or maybe the answer is that Satmar derech is right for some and Breuer derech for others. So, at minimum, we need to be seriously aware of that the options are.
Bachur,
this is part of the discussion. Shutaf works for democracies and he is not sure as you are whether holding citizenship is enough. I am not sure why.
Say, you and I open a partnership and there is a clause that one can leave the partnership and stop paying his part of the mortgage. Then, if I choose to move to another country but not formally leave the partnership, I would be obligated to pay. Same with marriage – can you leave without a get and let her figure it out that you are not interested any more?BUT, he also has a 2nd part about power of government that applies to kings and dictators – that we lived under for centuries. Then, the fact of international treaties that US can use to get you or you bank account matter also.
Dr Pepper > Are you opining that Social Security isn’t legally a Ponzi Scheme
Maybe we are confused by the term itself. Geniva daas is illegal. Taxing young generation to pay for older generation is not illegal, but even be a mitzva under Kiddushin discussion about respect to zakenim (especially after they make eligibility age halachik 70 🙂
Or, maybe the power of the government makes Ponzi scheme legal? After all, if I personally come to you and “tax” your income 10% under a threat of my gun, it will not be legal. But the government can do that.
Daas,
there are several points in the lecture:
1) idea that you are a shutaf in the country and this clearly applies to those who actively participate – go back to the country, file taxes when they can get child credit. He is less sure if you left forever or even a citizen who was born in another country. He asked R Schachter and he was not sure, and he says some other anonymous rav thinks that this binds. I personally think that any conscious person who is aware of the laws can make an effort and denounce his citizenship if he really wants to.
2) one reason for dina d’malchuta is that government has a legitimate power over us, not necessarily democratic (see sources below). He quote a case of a Canadian court recognizing extradition request of the US citizen who owned just 8 mln dollars in US taxes. US can also fine bank accounts via international treaties. So, they definitely have that power and you should submit instead of waiting for Musk to uncover your account. By this theory, there seems to be a limit: if you move forever to North Korea outside of US treaties, you don’t have to pay US tax forms
3) in the last 5 minutes, he addresses the accountant problem. He seems to suggest that you at least owe your client an explanation and encouragement to file the forms and pay if anything is due.here is from PDF attached to that lecture:
Responsa of the Geonim (Asaf) #66 (Less extreme in Ramban and others) ונתויווג לעו’ :בותככ ,לארשי וליפאו ,םנוצרכ וב טולשל םדא ינב ןוממ לע ןטילשה ךכ ,ומלועב תויוכלמה תא ה”בקה ‘םנוצרכ ונתמהבבו םילשומ טילשה רשאכ יכ When G-d gave power to the kings in the world, he gave them control of people’s money, to control them as they will, even those of the Jews, as it says “over our bodies and our beasts as they please.”10. Rabbi Shimon b. Aderet (Rashba), Nedarim 28a איה ולש ץראהש םכתא שרגא יתוצמ ושעת אל םא והל רמא יצמד םושמ Because he can say “if you don’t follow my commands, I will expel you”, for the land is his.
pekak > In a Secular Marriage aka Civil Union the “wife”
an interesting point. What would be in Israel without Rabanut weddings? Would they be in the same state as Americans and Russians? Maybe different as Israelis will have less problems with intermarriages. Still, do you NOT think it is a good thing that millions of Jews were married correctly? I am not talking about some card-carrying communists who addressed their sheva brochos to Stalin, but about normal Israelis who have certain Jewish feelings and will cherish the memory of their wedding thru the years, maybe affecting them and their children through their life.
Incidentally, status of publicly known long-term marriage as non-marriage is not that pashut, even as it may be pasken l’kula. Also, when was R Moshe’s teshuva on non-recognition of non-O marriages issued? I think somewhere around 1970. Not sure it affected non-religious weddings also, but if you are thinking as you were in 1950 – you could presume that in the absence of Rabanut non-O marriages will be eventually imported and become a problem.
as we discussed in another thread, look at long-term effects. Are graduates of this school ehrliche menchen who treat others with kavod? Can they apply their learning to figuring out how to properly work and honestly pay taxes? If yes, this is the right derech (for these students).
Bachur > Not every law passed by a country comes under its chiyuv
absolutely, I listed some above. None apply here. And, again – these laws apply to US citizens, not to anyone in the world.
My explanation why SS is not a Ponzi:
SS is (1) a tax and (2) payments to elderly.Both are structured in certain way to make it attractive to the voters. For example, SS pays non-poor so that voters do not revolt. Despite that, Congress/President can vote new formulas for SS or eliminate it completely at any time. There is no lockbox, don’t believe Al Gore.
You seem to be confused only because you typically pay this tax when you are young and get returns when you are old. Similarly, you pay medical insurance when you are healthy (and typically young), and get money back when you are sick (and typically old). So Ponzi is in your head and maybe you can blame politicians and newspapers for confusing you.
Your real concern is the “shortfall” – that SS is “losing money”. Something will need to happen due to, B’H, people living longer and, unfortunately, people having less children. It will be up to the voters to decide – increase age, reduce benefits, etc. Like everything else in a democratic country.
Neville & Daas
>> “dina dMalchusa does not mean”
> Give me a proof that it means you have to follow the laws of another country in which you don’t even live.I am not sure what the issue is: being a US citizen obligates you. You can stop being a citizen at any time. If you were a Soviet Jew behind the iron curtain, then you would have an argument not to follow their laws until they open the borders! Maybe one needs to look closer at igros Moshe and other responsa to see if they give an exemption if you are out of the country.
Here are a couple of relevant sources:
https://www.yutorah.org/ lectures/889411/Expatriate-Taxation-in-Halachah
https://en.globes.co.il/en/ article-new-immigrants-will-need-to-report-income-and-assets-abroad-1001472163HaKatan > The “Religious Zionists” have also hurt the chareidim and other Torah Jews in multiple ways,
I am sure there were arguments going both ways. Would you agree that they are primarily responsible for Israel having government paying for religious education; religious marriages; observing shabbat; having official kashrus; official rabanut? You may consider many of these below your standards, but do you see value that these are provided to several million Jews? Picture yourself Israel that is fully secular, shabbat as work day, secular marriages w/ resulting mamzerim, etc – would you prefer that?
HaKatan > They happen to be even more fanatical in their Zionism than are their secular counter-parts, because they worship Zionism “for real”.
you continue your circular writing, where you are using unclear terms and attack them. So far, I am presuming that you never read or taken a class from a religious zionist. Please prove me wrong and bring quotes (real, not taken out of context) from religious zionists you disagree with and discuss what you see as a problem there. If you consider them as avodah zorah and can’t open a sefer (*), maybe we can discuss R Soloveitchik, who is acknowledged as T’Ch even by those who disagree with him, and who is not 100% with everything that was done in Israel.
(*) R Eliezer is willing to produce magical cucumbers to demonstrate to R Akiva how this is done, even as that was chayav misa. So, if you ask your rov whether you can read seforim in order to argue with us, you might get permission.
Chaim > you always need to look at how religious and toradik a sect is after they introduce a controversial idea.
exactly. This is commented on Pirkei Avos – difference between talmidei Avraham and bilaam. Bilaam himself might look respectable, but his students give it away. Same for machlokes l’shem shemayim. I heard a similar notion from R Steinsaltz many years ago: that we may only understand events after some time. Gemora gives reasons for destruction of Beis Hamikdash centuries later. My own: R Yochanan b Zakkai was not sure till the end of his days whether he was right when talking to Vespasian or could have asked for me.
Taking such long view on the groups of interest (in addition to your observations on Conservatives etc)
1) modern O definitely have problems with retention, a lot of less educated move towards less observance, less focus on family
2) charedim have problems with relating to the world. They seem to be losing immunity to real life and have to stay masked and 4ft away from the world
Somehow, we need to find a derech retaining the best from both approaches. It is possible as
3) early response of Jewish communities to reform/assimilation/communism was inadequate. By now, we have some institutions that strengthen those who are observant and even teach those who are not. But, early responses did not work well. We tend to blame those eform/assimilation/communism proponents, but the reaction was not good enough. I am not blaming those generations – they were against totally new events and tried to save what is possible. Improved response started probably w/ R Hirsch (Germans encountered modernity earlier), R Salanter, maybe even Mendelssohn.So, understanding this dynamics gives us hope that we can do even better (opposite opinion that our position is “always correct” and unchanging leads to pessimism).
non political > As an aside, I don’t know a single religious zionist who is of the opinion that the Jewish nation is “a nation like all others”
I think he is not really aware of these positions. He starts with “zionists are bad” referring to anti-religious zionists of 1930s-60s, and then
presumes that “religious zionists” are simply religious people who support anti-religious zionists. Ignoring or being ignorant of their actual positions.I am not well read in Israeli politics, but I was just reading R Soloveitchik’s speeches in 1950s reflecting on the role of Mafdal, listing how they were fighting non-observant majority to introduce hallachik standards of education/marriage/kashrus/shabbos into Israeli politics. Maybe, someone whose community did not participate much in those achievements, feels now a need to disregard them in order to keep his “self-esteem” intact. If he were to appreciate impact of religious zionists on making Israeli government and public more observant, maybe they’ll have to think about some teshuva, and it is always hard.
Bachur, Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as investors continue to contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment or lose faith in the non-existent assets they are purported to own.
The key here is the fraud. Social Security rules are not hidden. It is true that various politicians and media use misleading descriptions that creates the wrong impression and can be seen as Ponzi. It is a feature of free speech in US that it is up to consumer/voter to figure out who is right. It is definitely not how a Jew should talk.
Bachur > US is a solitary outlier in the world taxing expat income earned abroad
Right, I think there are two issues here:
1) taxing on income earned abroad – here US seems to be an outlier, although citizens of other countries get into same situation, maybe during a transition year or due to specific job arrangements.
2) double taxation when a citizen in one country and resident in another – so a lot of countries have income treaties that allow offsetting one income tax v. the other.For US, see IRS rules for foreign earned income exclusion. I see that it has a limit of $125K though …
This explains why the discussion here was about social security tax and not income tax. But, as we discussed, paying social security tax entitles you to receiving social security benefits, however uncertain they are.
But the bottom line – it does not matter whether US is different here from other countries. dina dMalchusa does not mean that you only follow the laws where they coincide with worldwide practices, Gemora conclusions, or your own feelings. A reasonable country, whether democracy or not, establishes rules. This clearly applies to modern democracies, including USA. In some cases, these rules can be very oppressive and discriminatory against Jews. That may allow for some deviations. Consult your local Russian or Chinese Rabbi for more details.
yankel, an interesting idea that Satmar Rebbe might have exaggerated his position in order to keep his chasidim out of trouble. This jibes Chazon Ish description of communities he was creating as “midbar” to hide from the dangerous environment. Surely, Chazon Ish (and Rambam he is quoting) does not consider midbar an ideal society, but just a temporary reprieve from danger. But what do you do if your midbar is physically collocated with the dangerous environment for years and decades? This is something Rambam did not envision. Certainly, you will need to install significant gedorim to protect the community from the danger.
Maybe a taanit dibbur
yankel > It is well established fact that in Europe and the ME before the medina ,the Zionists were a substantial force for abandonment of yiddishkeit
Likewise after the medinaI did not study this, but my impressions from reading about that time that it was, at worst, one of several forces, and, at best, the only one of options available to those who did not want to be observant that lead to some Jewish future: Jews were becoming non-religious for various social and cultural reasons – looking for respectful life, attractiveness of general culture, lack of serious Jewish education, etc.
R Soloveichik quotes Rambam on how to evaluate political figures and movements. This approach is applicable to many issues we discuss here. In this case – were it not secular zionism, what would those Yidden do? They would not likely go to a yeshiva, but they would become bundists, cultural Jews, socialists, communists – with worse outcomes for them and their children.
There were specific cases of Zionist-led effects on children, for example when orphans were arriving at the end of WW2 (such as Polish Jews who survived exile in USSR and left it via Iran and polish anders Army) – many were taken to anti-religious kibbutzim even when they were from observant families. But while this was tragic, it was not a general trend.
As to religious zionists, the quote above from R Soloveitchik is from his speech in 1950s as applied to Mizrahi – he considers how much Mafdal was able to achieve in terms of marriage, shabbat, kashrut in Israel despite their small numbers in politics comparing with anti-religious Zionists.
JR87, I am also surprised how people who argue for tax evasion are not bringing any halachik authorities. I presume those inside in US might not publicize such psak for the fear of IRS audit, but I am sure there are lots of other poskim who could answer such a shailah.
Out of curiosity, those who mentioned Ponzi scheme – is this your own idea, and if not, where did you read this?
It seems that Milton Friedman mentioned this in a 1999 article (once in a NYT headline, that might not be his, and once “opponents call it a ponzi scheme”) – so more like a rhetorical device, and there are several articles in 2024 claiming it again and referring to Milton Friedman. The accusation is relevant so far as it refers to popular misconception that it is a pension plan and Algore’s “lockbox”. As a real thing, it is a program that pays elderly poor and collects a tax. Both payments and tax are structured in a way that middle class gets something, so they are not protesting this as a program for poor people the way medicaid is. I myself is for limited, especially federal, government, as I posted before. Here we are talking simply that a democracy has a way to determine laws and you either agree to the whole system or denounce your citizenship and move to another place. As I also mentioned, ideally there will be very limited federal government, and then you can simply move from Illinois to Indiana to get different social policies. As I think most here would agree, if they think soberly for a minute, that US is generally good to the population, Jews included. R Moshe Feinstein and numerous others hold same opinion. R Feinstein had what to compare with – he lived in Czarist and then Soviet Russia before coming to US.
yankel, quotiong others > They used it to take countless yehudim away from the torah.
Is it really so? Did Zionists take shomer shabbos youngsters and lured them to kibbutzim? I don’t think this was a major trend – most non-religious zionists came from already assimilated Jews. If they were not to become zionists, they would be bundists, socialists, or communists. So, among such public, those who became Zionists – moved to Israel, their grandchildren are most likely to be Jewish, and some became observant or traditional. Those who went for other -isms, ended up niftar in Stalin’s and Hitler’s camps, or at best their grandchildren most likely assimilated and intermarried in Europe, Russia, and America.
Religious zionists indeed attracted observant Jews, but they did not take them away from Torah.
AAQ> “This is something that will be paid back with reasonable assurance.”
Neville > No, THIS is silly. If you only got back exactly what you paid in, it wouldn’t be enough for anyone to live on rendering SS uselesSS does not have to be a ponzi scheme – one generation pays, another receives. Payout can be compatible (on average) with what the other generation paid in. Ponzi scheme presumes that payouts in early phases are way above normal and can be only paid by sucking more suckers in. The main problem SS might be low on funds right now is that, B’H people live longer and thus receive SS for longer time than previous generation. This is not true any more, unfortunately, lately with several years same or even lower life expectancy. The next problem is that people are not having enough children.
Neville > “Is each of us allowed to decide what is “fair” and what is “devastating” and not pay extra?”
We should be. That’s his point. You’ve been trained to think it’s crazy, but it’s not.I am not sure what is your theory, maybe I missed it in your previous points. Are you suggesting a charity system to substitute for any tax? Or only for taxes that you think are unfair, like US double-taxation? I can assure you that every revenue source has someone objecting to it. So, we all can participate in a democracy and influence the policy, but can we simply cheat to avoid paying? I’d like to see a halachik source for that. There are plenty of sources saying that one should pay taxes in a medina shel chesed (Igros Moshe)
I hope you do it very carefully. I tried going on a sidewalk when roads are bad but my minivan gets stuck at turns.
Gemora allows walking on the private property along the road during the mud season and even looks down
at a person who jumps over potholes for being “holier than thou”Novardok was into dressing poorly, Slabodka was into respectful dress, although not uniform, I believe. Similarly/later, Lublin provided respectful room & board.
JR87, thanx for the idea!
yankel > I cannot see the ‘heresy’ you per force read into Zionism You are right that the overwhelming majority of Zionists were heretics.
I agree with what you wrote about religious zionism and that is the main topic here.
but, as you mentioned, those non-religious Zs: they were not part of some shmad operation upon frum yidden in EY … they mostly came from Europe and Russia non-religious. Actually, those non-religious Jews who were not Zs became worse – bundists and communists – and also mostly ended up worse both being killed by commies and Nazis, assimilating, intermarrying, etc … So, you can even say that non-religious Z saved a lot of Jewish souls from the worse.
Chaim on Biden, I generally agree. I don’t think Biden was naive – his only experience is politics and he understands what is happening politically. He was (1) politics first – it is reported that he was always sympathetic to Israel, but would do what he had to do to placate various factions he depended on. Other politicians do that too, but he seems to be very good at that. (2) he, and his team, were limited by their presumptions and lack of leadership experience. They never tried to actively manage problems and conflicts, always following administrative rules, always afraid of something happening that will blame them. Basically, he/they were way over their heads.
phil, thanks for clarifying your position. I went too far in interpreting your words
> The government has no right to tax people simply any amount they decide to. Taxes have to be fair, they should not have a devastating financial effect on people and their families. A government demanding heavy taxes is stealing from its citizens.I may want to government tax us less, but we live in a democracy where voters make certain decisions in a generally fair way. Is each of us allowed to decide what is “fair” and what is “devastating” and not pay extra? There are a lot of suboptimal, and sometimes simply silly, decisions by the government in how they tax and distribute funds. For example, FAFSA recently (quietly) changed (by Biden admin) from “family index” to “student index”, which means that family income is considered for every college student in the family instead of being divided by number of current students in college (this is while forgiving loans to those who work in non-profits, mostly democrats). So, we are paying way more than planned. Am I justified to fudge my income to correspond to the “fair” value?!
In the particular case of SS tax, even this seems not to work – government forces you to pay into a program that has a reasonable chance to benefit you in the future and that, presumably, your parents and grandparents are/were beneficiaries of. The case of income tax, this seems like a really heavy burden to pay it in both in a local high-tax country (Israel or EU) and in USA – is this actually happening? can someone clarify please.
somejew > There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts” – If any of these were written by undisputed Gedolai Torah, please let us know.
I brought before the example: R Soloveitchik and did not see your answer. There are many who disagreed with his positions, but I believe everyone accepts him as a gadol bTorah. To clarify what his position is: despite his enthusiasm for early Yishuv and later Medinah, he was very disparaging about various statements by non-religious zionists and also generally supportive, but often criticizing religious zionists. For example, when RCA (rabbinical organization) sent out some Mafdal materials related to celebrating yom haatzmaut, he is absolutely against it – saying that only Rabbis should decide on what and how is celebrated, and sending materials on behalf of a political party creates an impression that the party can establish religious rites.
If you are looking for halachik sources, maybe look at commentaries to Sanhedrin 50.
There is discussion about Yoav touching on relevant issues:
1) do you listen to a King (David) when he urgently need to raise an army against rebels, but would-be soldiers are learning? apparently, you let them finish a masechet.
I did not look deeper, but I guess this could go in different directions:
– learning exempts from the army even if the government orders it
– you do go to the army after you finish masechet … (what if your learning does not end?)
– you do go to the army if you are not currently on a masechet ..2) David and Yoav were successful by mutually assisting each other:
– David is learning and doing justice
– Yoav running the armyagain, it may mean:
– do not touch those who are involved in learning & mishpat, they are doing their part
– we need unity of purpose and mutual respect for the army and learners, or more precise – judges who make internal peace. This is relevant to the judicial reform and other machlokets in the countryYS, for some reasons, counties around DC are among the richest in the country … I am guessing you live in the area, so you might be partial to the good living your neighbors are having … A funny story: I was taking an uber from a DC airport to a meeting with the government. The driver looked like a smart guy and his car was a Tesla .. wow, I thought, being an uber driver in dc really pays. We were talking about low traffic in DC post-covid and I mentioned that this is because all gov workers are WFH under no supervision. He gave me a look: “be careful, you might be talking to one”. I kind of concluded, without solid proof, that this gov worker was double-billing by driving uber during office hours. No wonder he cold afford a tesla,
but more importantly – not only the gov people are often not efficient (this is business 101 from lack of competition and accountability), they are actually making decisions that affect all of us. I am not saying that Musk always knows better. I am just saying that he is making decisions in place of those people who were not good at making decisions. And they were doing them for decades. So, Americans collectively decided to see if things can be done in a different way.
And there are multiple recourses:
there will be elections in less than 2 years;
your state can pick up the services Musk is going to cancel;
you can take Musk’s offer of 8 months free salary – and hope to get it back after Musk is gone.
you can move to Israel or Canada or UK or Mexico;
Musk himself suggested a feedback loop: rescind all regulations and then see which ones were really needed
some Trump observers think that he is highly sensitive to feedback and that he quickly came to agreement with Mexico/Canada based on 2% market drop.at the end, your concern is about how much power we want to give to an executive so that he achieves something and how much freedom we’ll lose
See Shmuel’s gripes when he anoints a melech
See Roman republic that had all-powerful dictators with one year non-renewable termNeville> To be fair, however, if you’re now going full 180 and saying white shirts negatively affect people, therefore there’s a maalah in colored shirts, then your colored shirt is actually causing you to have more gaavah than a white one would and serving the opposite of its purpose.
Daas> This is a good point, and then they don’t even get the maaleh of a white shirt! (The association with the oilam hayehivos)
Both good points 🙂 The answer is in my previous post – it seems that you can’t wear anything or make any decision that is correct because it shows gaavah. This is unless you engage in mussar that leads you to have the right attitude. Conclusion: if you don’t learn mussar, you can’t wear any shirt.
Neville > The derech goes back to Slobodka
I was thinking recently about Slabodka having respectful clothing for their poor students to bolster their self esteem and how it relates to current situation, where (in my humble opinion) the dress often leads to underserved gaavah. There are two changes between Slabodka and now:
1) those students were mostly genuinely poor and the clothes hopefully took their self esteem from low to average. now sometimes clothes look more exclusive than others in the community and students are not necessarily poor
2) Slabodka was heavy on mussar. There are lots of stories about Alter miSlabodka on how he checked his own character, such as: when he did not want to go greet a certain visitor, he walked to the hotel, and then thought a little, and went back home. He wanted to make sure that he is not justifying his decision by simple laziness or desire to save time. A lot of people now who dress Slabodka-way are engaging in self-serving behaviors, finding the derech that just happens to be comfortable for themselves in totally non-Slabodka way.
Yserbius,
this seems like a collective version of the following effect: you earn $100, you remember it for a minute. You lose $100 and you are upset about it. Same here: we have 1,000s of unelected people spending billions of dollars and you are OK with that. Suddenly someone comes and cuts some of that spending and you are worrying. Did you worry before about what was done (or not done) under previous administrations? I’ve seen sometimes how they make these decisions, and it is a draw of luck: some are reasonable, and some are totally crazy, based on very limited thinking from one particular person, based on political leanings, etc. Just to make you feel a little more comfortable, I saw a quote from Musk that his madness has a system: he suggested to rescind regulations wholesale – and then see if some of them were actually useful, they’ll put them back.Chaim, interesting, could you quote more from that psak?
phil > Talking about social security
Phil, I think that your attitude that you don’t need to follow the laws that you don’t find convenient is a bigger issue than what will happen with social security. In a democracy, voters will come to some consensus how to spend money and how to support old people. And you will be able to express your opinion. And please consider any offense you perceive society perpetrated against you in the context of all the good that you enjoy daily. Sorry for sounding like Obama “you didnt build that”, but this goes back to, I think, Ben Azzai who wondered in morning brochos how many people had to work that day to make all the things he will be using.
anIsraeliYid, the argument about SS payments looks especially silly. This is something that will be paid back with reasonable assurance. OK, it may be not the most efficient vehicle and it may be on top of your Israeli withholdings, but at the end it is the same investment paid by any US citizen and you’ll get the benefit the same way as them. “Unaffordable” is “just” a cash flow problem. If you do other investments, you can reduce them as SS is an investment, or you can even borrow against that investment … anyway, this is not a direct loss at all.
If you treat SS as simply payment to current retirees in exchange to a vague promise of future generations paying for you later – then, maybe SS becomes a payment to the people who build all the life and peace you enjoyed as a kid, growing in US (and frankly not in the US also); or as a charity to support old people.
But what about income tax – I thought that paying income tax on all world income is the biggest issue with US system of taxing all income?
I also wonder whether non-US taxes are a bigger burden and maybe having a US corp can help minimize overall tax burden. But maybe Israel and EU tax you for the work done on their territory anyway. Say, you are a tax preparer for US citizens in Israel, spend April in US when you are actually filing all taxes and claim US-only income? Of course, maybe not paying Israeli taxes is worse option and there is an issue of leaving EY to pursue additional income (at the expense of other Israeli citizens).
Lav > He told me that in his experience it is very unlikely for a teen with a smartphone (even if they only use it for Kosher content) to grow up frum, let alone a Ben Torah.
I am ok with not using smartphones, but, in the interest of Emes, this statement is only partially true. It is quite possible to raise Torah-loving children with phones provided they are surrounded by parents and schools that teach and monitor kids appropriately. What this menahel is saying that within his framework, where defence of Torah is primarily by building siyagim, then the smartphone is a breach that he does not know how to repair.
Just do a thought experiment: would it hurt a kid, if a kid will be using a computer only together with his thoughtful parent to access Torah resources; math quizzes; communications with Savta; buying tzanua clothes on Amazon? Obviously not. So, probably deviating somewhat from that ideal will also not hurt them too much. Just find the right dosage for a particular kid.
> Many Jews unfortunately believe the Zionist lie that Jews are a “nation” like all other nations and that the Zionists represent that mythical nation
I think there is some confusing conflation of terms here. First “zionists” = non-religious people who were in power in early Israel. True. Then, everyone who cooperated in any way with those “zionists” are also called “zionists” and thus are equally treif. So, if a governor of NJ visits Lakewood NJ, now all rabonim, H’V, are guilty of the governor’s corruption?!
where do religious zionists say that Jews are “like other nations”?! I am not a bokeh in R Kook, but I was reading R Soloveitchik lately who was sympathetic to Mafdal, and he is in no way approving of such approach. To the opposite, he quotes Israeli minister on US TV in the 1950s who talks about “trusting Arab youth” and “British ministers” and recording a sarcastic remarks of a non-Jewish friend – “I would rather put my trust in G-d of Israel” …
from halakhipedia, these are some starting points for the discussion.
One who does not pay taxes violates a Torah commandment of “lo tigzol” (Vayikra 19:13), as one is stealing from the government. Shulchan Aruch C.M. 369:6. Rabbi Menashe Klein writes that tax evasion is equivalent to hafkaat halvaa, withholding payment for debt, which is only prohibited in case of chillul hashem (Mishneh Halachot, Chelek 12, Siman 445).
One who violates tax laws of a country with a legitimate system of taxes is obligated to pay the resulting fines. Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 369:7; Rambam, Hilchos Melachim 4:1, Hilchos Gezeilah 5:12
A Jew is permitted to work a tax agency and turn in Jews found guilty Shevet Halevi, Chelek 2, Siman 18
It is prohibited to avoid paying taxes in a democracy such as the United States. Shu”t Igrot Moshe CM 2:29, Shu”t Shevet Halevi 2:58,
taxes nowadays would not only be binding because of dina dimalchuta dina. Paying taxes is also your obligation to the partnership because taxes are used to provide services to the citizens (fire, police, military, garbage, mail etc). All the people of the city, state, country have to contribute to provide for that. Thus, one who withholds his taxes is not only taking from the government. He is taking from the other citizens, which inevitably includes other Jews. Rav Schachter
According to some poskim, patronizing a Jewish merchant who cheats on his taxes violates the biblical prohibition of lifnei iver. Rav Schachter ?
phil: i guess the early Americans were criminals for protesting against British taxation
One difference is that Brits did not give Americans an option to quit Britain, they came to collect those taxes.
As Dr Pepper said, you can renounce your US citizenship and live freely and honestly.Maybe you can start by asking your clients what their Rabbis pasken about this? It would be interesting to see the range of opinions.
As far as I know, there might be a heter to cheat oppressive governments, especially when there are laws targeting Jews, but not of democratic governments. But maybe there are other views. I am surprised that some people ^ just quote their feelings to allow something like that.
ok, anIraeliYid seem to confirm that incorporation helps. Could you guys flesh these solutions out so that the kahal could use them? The same about child credits.
simcha, you should start working with these people on their next year return and creating the right structure. Sanhedrin 40+ – you should always pray about the problem before it happens (Avraham near Ai)
Note that we had periods in history where Jews were unfairly targeted for extra taxation. In such cases, it might be acceptable to avoid them. In this case, this is an issue with any American abroad, so this is not an anti-Jewish gezerah.
maybe you can have a discussion with your parents and come to a compromise.
One suggestion – do you need a phone or any internet-connected device. I understand that some parnosos take require a phone – an uber drive, hgatzola, lhavdil, drug dealer. Otherwise, you can have a full computer with a big screen in a living room, turned towards the public so that everyone can see what is on the screen. That could solve a lot of concerns they have. You can have whatsapp on the computer also. And show that you are responsible individual otherwise.
I see what comes out of these discussions: we need to separate between views of 50-100 years and current matzav.
There were widely diverging views 100 years ago and whatever views they were, we are not able to make judgment on them, when what is history for us, was an unknown and uncertain future for them. And their views and actions fashioned the today’s situation, whether for better or worse. Same, as some say, that Vilna Gaon put herem on chasidim – are chasidim today avdei avoda zara? some say, that is because Gaon brought them to senses. Not trying to divert the thread, just bringing an analogy.
So, when we discussing today’s world, we need to recalibrate to what exists today. Anti-religious Zionism, judging by votes and polls are a minority in EY. Another large group is “traditional” and large religious group that did not exist (in numbers like now) 100 years ago.
Neville > Because if I’m going to have a state that can coerce me into giving it money and being subjected to its will, then I want it to be as limited as possible. States are free to “compete” by giving us even more rights that what the Constitution guarantees, but I see no advantage to the consumer in them being able to give less.
Constitution gives certain rights to the Feds. The rest is between States and people (or towns). States can not give you _more_ rights. That is, if Feds can regulate interstate commerce, they have it whatever the States say. What happened from 14th Amendment and on, the rights of the states are minimal – both Feds and People got more. On a positive side, we live in a reasonably free country and enjoying a lot of rights. On the negative side, we lost the ability of individual states to implement different systems of government, whether in culture or in economics. I am calling your attention that a large portion of current political wars could be resolved by doing it differently in different states.
> That’s a cute way of justifying only using the parts of the Constitution that serve your shittah, but it’s a nonsensical distinction. You now have to also ignore the Constitution’s ability to be amended so that you can justify ignoring all amendments, but to do so would ignore part of what you call the “ikar.”
I am not calling for a revolution. I am suggesting using existing political process to favor restoration of state powers where possible, The fact that such system existed – and had certain flaws that led to civil war – makes it easier to analyze. If you consider original American idea a success, then you’d pay attention to the lessons and maybe go read federalist papers. If you follow modernishe view that the country was founded on aveiros only, then you’d advocate for a federal government that will solve all the problems. I don’t think this is your shitah.
a good question. Maybe it is worth exploring if there are legal structures that can resolve the double taxation issue. For example, forming a corporation whether in Israel or in Us or in a 3rd party that will hold the profits. This is way beyond my expertise, I just hope that such methods are known to rich people and maybe should be shared with others also. It will a great thing both financially and hashkafically.
as to mutual funds, solution seems to be simple – just hold those investments that are tax-advantaged in your situation. There is no mitzva to hold all mutual funds in the world.
Nrville > being subjugated by private companies is no better than being subjugated by the government. I don’t agree with them, because in a free market you can take your business elsewhere
exactly this is the problem with the government – monopoly, and, as I am saying, a state system partially alleviates this problem by providing competition between state governments. I am not sure why you don’t agree with this, maybe I do not understand your arguments, such as:
> If a state wanted to make their own currency, and refuse to do business with any other state, what would stop them?
article 1, sec 10, see text below> makes the commerce clause a “fundamental of the Constitution” while the 14th amendment is just something you think should be scrapped?
14th amendment came later after civil war. Constitutional structure existed from the beginning. Ikar v tofel. My argument here is that this structure of competition between government is gradually decreased over time and it may be worth going back to. For a comparison, think of how Roman Republic changed over time into Empire. Interestingly, modern historians start using the term “empire” from the time of .. Emperors, duh. At the same time, say, Tacitus who lived at that time, describes his government as republic with emperors. He sees emperors as part of republican government, although he realizes that there is a change happening. He seems to define it as a Republic as long the Senate is there and it goes through motions confirming emperors, approving wars, and doing all the other Senate stuff – all of that while describing in detail how weak and corrupt the senate became. for example, when the next emperor approaches Rome with the army, Senators abandon current emperor and run to the future one to proclaim that they always were on his side.
#article-1-section-10-clause-1
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it’s inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.
No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.