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A question what is more important: learn or have an ehrliche life is ridiculous. How often do you ask whether eating kosher or davening is more important?
Or maybe tell your wife that you are busy this month, so which out of 3 obligations she could drop?
Avira, so a ” kollel” person who works at night is exactly the working model I am for. Just not take someone’s money that they didn’t offer you explicitly to support your learning
Ctl, I didn’t suggest taking food stamps, did I!?
Get some professional knowledge whether through college or self learning or friends, work 4 hours a week for $100. That is 21 k per year to live as a poor ehrlihe talmid chachamCtl, my suggestion was opposite: work 3 4 hours a WEEK, not a day, enough to support oneself and family at 19th century level, no government assistance has vesholom. If there is someone learning like that, I’ll consider contributing to him, bli neder and/or convince ctl to do the same.
n0 > whole class that doesn’t wash,
Most Americans wash, FYI 🙂 But there are also opposite cases – people who were not enthusiastic in Jewish environment, then become more self-aware and assertive when in different environment
n0 > current economic set up does not accommodate working hard for your money.
A good point. We have a mitzva to be honest, etc. So, whatever the economic conditions are, we are to behave. You would not eat basar lavan because it s cheaper? so, you should not do bad work because it is more profitable.
I once heard a chasiddishe professional talking to college students. They opened up with “how do you keep kosher at work/keep shabbos/wear a hat/a beard” … He started with “the first thing you should know – you owe 8 hours of honest work daily to your employer”
Avira > they’re not interested in remaining in learning even though they might have experienced some success in yeshiva.
When we discuss these issues, we sometimes look at the narrow swath of time – learning v. college. A better way is took at the “whole person”. I think it is Ner Isroel shitah that a college-educated person has a better environment for a life-long learning.
Marxist > For the pre-health jobs, PT/OT/speech don’t make the 200K like doctors, dentists etc.
but it achieves a respectable job that provides parnosa without getting involved in questionable business practices and daily davening devoted to tomorrow’s earnings.
> For computer science jobs, it depends but having a masters or Phd will make you so much more competitive in that field. Same thing with data analytics.
true. I have that, and it does open extra opportunities. But in software development and data analytics, one can get steady jobs even with less.
read R Twersky, he dealt with drug & alcohol problems in the “frum” communities. He highly recommends AA.
> Gaon’s rhetoric caused the blood of Chassidim to flow like water.
I don’t know whether this was a forgery or not, but blood (on both sides) might be referring to attempts to appeal to Russian authorities who used such reports to clump down on both sides. Alter Rebbe was not whistling back, except lamenting of a “torture” of being released into a misnagdish home after being released from the prison.
Yankelberl, thanks for the “Rav” suggestion. It would surely apply to first/last names like “Rav Avigdor Miller”, but not to pen names like “Chofetz Chaim”.
Chaim Volozhiner seems like an intermediate case, Volozhiner being sort of a nick name. I consulted reb Google, and it seems that appellation is more used than not, so your correction seem to be more correct than not. I also notice that he was also known as _Reb_ Chaim V… Maybe we can follow psak of R Gershon Kamenetsky who puts R for everyone and suggests to read it as Reb/Rav/Rebbe/Gaon Hatzaddik according to reader’s preferences.
CS, I understand Alter Rebbe’s argument for neshoma v. guf and it is very attractive, and it was based on recent history of assimilation in Western Europe. Still, it is very unattractive in a long run – agreeing and supporting a despotic regime (it appears that Chabad Chassidim provided direct intelligence support to Czar’s army, not just a general endorsement). I am not aware of any Western European Rabbonim taking their community and leading them away from spiritual mitzraim of Western Europe into safety of Russian empire. Notice that even in later years, when many European rabbonim were against moving to Goldene Medina or EY, there was no widespread movement saving Jews from evil America into safe Russia. (not counting yeshiva students going temporarily to learn in Mir or Slabodka, like R Avigdor Miller, and then returning back unless stopped by a world war).
cs > . For a chossid/ Jew to go and willingly open a cheder / Mikvah
This is laudable of course and Chabad had great people there, but this is in part a “true Scotsman” fallacy – there were also people who joined the commies, etc, but those we call not “true chassidim”.
When Fridrike Rebbe was arrrested in the 20s, the arresting commissar wanted to carry rebbe’s suitcase as his father did for his father, but was refused.
Another story I heard from a Polish Jew whose house was searched by Soviet KGB during WW2, suddenly one of them started quietly signing Kol Nidrei nigun. When they talked, he warned them what not to do, and explained that he was a young yeshiva bucher, joined commies, soon lost his faith in it, but there was no way out
> Daycare providers are actually trained in this, and they play with the kids for a good part of the day.
Exactly. Parents are not trained. Give your kids to daycare/kindergarten/school/yeshiva/seminary/shadchan professionals and they’ll perform the mitzva of shinantem levanecha on your behalf with all chumros.
I would think that this amazing generation – dor hakollel – would be uniquely qualified to lead their own children to spiritual heights.
Avira > they were silenced and most were taken to Siberia,
Chofetz Chaimn escaped (sending his S-I-L on shabbos to pick up visas in Vilno) but later said that it was wrong to leave, as Russian Jews were left without leaders.
CS, what happened (and continue happening) in and around Russia is following historically from that confrontation between Napoleon and Russian Czar. From purely historical view, one might say that the role of some small Jewish group in White Russia did not matter. From spiritual POV, this could look different. As far as I know, other chassidim and Chaim Volozhiner supported Napoleon and maybe Polish hopes for independence, while Alter Rebbe supported the Czar. There are a lot of things to say for his position – it was likely that Napoleon will fail (and possible Chaim Volozhiner understood that also), so keeping good relations was important. Furthermore, Lubavich/Lyadi was located further into Russian empire than others. Still, Alter Rebbe was a minority who thought that keeping modernity away is more important than keeping slavery away.
Avira > Rav belsky told me that a frum person studying psychology is allowed to do so and “not be gores” garbage that is part of the course – now i don’t know if this psak applies only to someone who sat and learned for years in yeshiva,
This seems somewhat different from Rabbonim who davka insist that good learners stay learners.
R Twersky asked Steipler about medical school and Steipler suggested, if I recall correctly, learning a high-quality hevrusa, learning mussar (or chassidus?), and going to a mikva regularly.
But psychology may be on the riskier side, especially as it is a generic major taken by people with no specific plans, so curriculum is broad and shallow. This might make sense if going to a top college and planning for a PhD. Otherwise, going for one of the health sciences may be more practical and results in classes in audiology instead of “psychology of upper volta minorities”
n0 > And most of the world’s elite that went through college, have zero kosher dollars.
They went to college to become more successful criminals.This is a serious question as the father’s mitzva of giving a profession is exactly not to make kidd into listim. I feel opposite – that people who lack access to easy/clean professions and deal in business transactions, hustling, selling iphones online .. an educated person may indeed have capability to cheat, but a poor person might feel more need & pressure.
Specifically to Jews who have moral background, my personal observation is that a professional Yid is more reliable than an average professional (maybe because he is aware he is being watched), while an Yid hustling something is not always makes same impression,
Marxist > it is not enough to have only gone to undergraduate school.
N0 > There is not enough college level jobs for even a quarter of society.I hope we all understand that there are different ways for different people. We are just trying to define a framework …
For grad school, a Jewish dilemma is how far you want to go in your professional pursuits… There is an option of health sciences rather than full blown med school – nursing/PT/OT/speech – especially for girls. Also, computer science/software/data analysis do not require law/med school dedication/expenses
N0 > You create your own influences.
I agree with Avira here. The prisoner can not take himself out of the prison, or maybe even understand what he is up to, especially a young person coming from a sheltered environment. Previous century is a testament to that. For example, an American minhag of sending 18 y.o. to another side of the country, or even world, to learn wisdom from a random professor or a coed.
Mod, thanks for the clarification. I should have mentioned the psak. Thanks for watching.
Mod > disclaimer: we don’t recommend writing your own heterim
sure. A specific psak I got from a hashuve rov I follow for decades already (and mentioned here before) that a psak on taking classes like “comparative religion” depends on the person’s emotional state and academic direction – some osur, some mutar and even recommended. And he paskened accordingly to the students he knew. I did not bother bringing each of our kids to the Rov, as he does not know them well, and I would be imposing on him a free psychological evaluation of each of them. So, I relied on the guidelines he gave. So far, everyone found these classes stimulating intellectually and no side effects observed. Again, done under direct Dr’s supervision.
these were your words and it was on this that the disclaimer was made. ‘Truly, the class above could have been avoided, but I thought this kid can benefit (with close supervision). ‘
Avira > exposing ourselves to negative influences, including hearing apikorsus
Here is an interesting question. We see here and offline, that there are masses of Jews exposed to a lot of nonsense – whether it is covid, ukraine, or any other political topic. You can see that they somehow were readt pure propaganda. This is not A’Z but still pretty bad. How do these people get affected without going to college or watching TV? you tell me,
I agree with Avira about intentional exposure:
there is a difference between learning for parnosa and having accidental exposure that needs to be minimized and balanced; and intentionally getting into humanities and sitting with those people. The latter probably falls under R Soloveichik’s psak not to deal with Christians in theology, only in practical matters. So, same with Liberal religion.4E, it is a fair argument that college may not be necessary to build job skills. It is often true, but it is also true that it is often an easy path to a comfortable job. If someone has in mind a specific job not requiring college, whether in office or in plumbing, gezunte heig!
The long-term job trend is that remaining jobs are either in knowledge economy – design, analytics, running large businesses, or service jobs/gigs and everything in between is ether automated or outsourced to China. Not many jobs left in shoemaking, small stores, etc. I myself run a small business and it is difficult to compete with the big ones.
4E > Perhaps you are unaware what’s covered these days
Funny, as I am sitting discussing a kid’s college homework on Stephen Gould’s view of separation between science and religion. We are discussing what Rabbi Sacks writes about the subject.
I am not disagreeing with you in general, though. You got to choose right majors hat focuses on tech and science, make sure kid has right environment – local, online, kehillah and intellectual support to deal with the issues as discussed above. Truly, the class above could have been avoided, but I thought this kid can benefit (with close supervision). You can use CLEPs, APs, transfers from simpler colleges to avoid possible problems. Go to Jewish colleges …. These are important details to consider, my point for now is that it is doable if done carefully.
disclaimer: we don’t recommend writing your own heterim
I thought simple explanation for RYBZ is that he is not sure whether he was right in not asking Vespasian to save whole Yerushalaim. Continue the analogy, Alter Rebbe was absolutely confident in his opposition of Napoleon and support of the Russian czar.
Unlikely alternative history that Alter Rebbe was scared of: French take over Poland and Russia, Jews learn of progressive ideas, and many assimilate. Better slavery in Russia than that. At the end, Pilish/Russian Jews experiencedboth slavery and assimilation, so I am not sure why Alter Rebbe was so sure (and most of other misnagdim and chassidim disagreed)
To be clear, my question is not about R Belsky being against college, I get that – but about lack of change over time. We discussed before R Moshe’s psak and his was clearly based on the fact that in his time, a median person did not go to college. And, as a bonus point to support that such osak is individual, it did not seem to be shayach to R’ Moshe’s daughter and S-I-L.
I agree that there are different approaches for different group of people. I do not begrudge that (most) Rabbis I learned from did not have significant secular education. Their productive contribution to am isroel and the world is self-evident. At the same time, I worry about multitudes who will end up being machmir in the mitzva of limud Torah, but meikel in supporting their family and leaving of tzedoka or non-Jewish support without any apparent reason.
Beshaato seems like a questionable approach v. chacham eynav berosho. Father’s obligation is to teach a son a profession so that he does not become a bandit. Are you saying, that the (grand)father’s obligation starts after kollel?!
Also, I wonder how universal these rules are. I heard from one father maybe 20 years ago whose son was in an anti-college charedi yeshiva in Israel. The son asked rosh yeshiva in private and the RY had no problem with studying computer science
n0,
I think you mean that when 50% of population goes to college, it is not the same as when 5% went. I totally agree – and that includes both level (most college classes are remedial middle school), but also in the effect on the students: most college professors do not aim to create anti-religious free-thinkers, they’d be happy that students can assimilate that correlation is not causation. Maybe, we should discuss “professional ed” from ivy-league. Maybe, just ask your Rav specific questions: is there a problem taking subway to the city, listening about Newton laws for 4 hours and then taking subway back, and then becoming eligible to have a well-paying job for life?Which step here leads to gehenom, other than for those who have a eshes chayil who is ready to support him. Although, I do not think it is kosher to obligate the wife for this support in the future, at least according to R Avigdor Miller who says kollel should be forever but ends when the wife says so. And even in this case, why shouldn’t the wife get a reasonable profession?
Avira, interesting – how would you explain unchanging position that was lhatlhila based on facts from earlier times? This is either (A) (understandable) conservatism – risk of going is higher than the reward (at least for the Rav, or from his point of view) or (B) some other factors have changed in parallel to the statistics of attendance. Did you ask or hear anything about it from the Rav?
Even literally – RYBZ risked his neshomo and met Vespasian, Alter Rebbe was niftar while fleeing from Napoleon.
Avira > Rav Belsky > Most overall should go to high school and not more; some should skip that, and others should even go to college.
what year was that? Probably the year that this corresponded to statistics of middle class in general. Similarly, R Feinstein reasoned hat one does not need college to live respectable/middle-class lifestyle.
Now, apply this to current day statistics, things are not that clear. Majority of middle class go to college, although for some of them it is not helpful or helpful just to claim credentials to do a job where high school only is required. But, overall, you can’t simply apply previous generation criteria without analysis.
Agree that the same applies to text & online discussions.
I tried to teach my kids that when there is a complication in a discussion, it is better to pick up the phone and talk it over to smooth differences, but they retorted that calling someone when text is expected is simply rude in their world – you are imposing your timeline on the other person, rather than letting him respond when he feels like that. By extension, goes to many other interactions in business world, where people make decisions about admissions/shidduchim/war targets based on what it currently says on their screen.
In all of the interactions, just try imagining the human being at the other side of the car window/internet connection/gun barrel
Someday,
good history, thanks. Those Yidden who did not see Yiddishkeit attractive, had a choice of commies/bund/zionists (2 types: anti-religious or religious). Simplification, of course.Out of these, both zionist groups have descendants who are Jewish, and even many non-religious ones have religious or traditional ones. Bund/socialist types were wiped out by commies first, and remaining by Nazis. Commie types went thru same 2 types of gehinom, plus some became murderers themselves. The remnants who re-appeared in 1970s as “soviet Jews” were in much worse shape than descendants of Zionim, both physically and spiritually, with few exceptions of heroic baalei teshuva and dissidents among them.
As to who so many left religion at that time – it is both the lure of revolutionary times and, to a degree, failure of Jewish communities to have a strong alternative. One might argue that religious Zionists created an attractive alternative to those who would otherwise have left, or at least tried.
Reportedly, a chusid was explaining to the Gerer Rebbe that he davens in a certain shul for baalei teshuva, although he is not one of them … Rebbe gib him a luk and asked “Why not?”.
So, surely, a (good) chabad shaliach can find potential baalei teshuva even in Toms River .. maybe there are people who were turned off by one derech, but will feel better in another.
Kuvult,
Would you ensure that those of these couples who divorced – had a kosher get?
with all good intentions, this seems to be an illustration for Kiddushin ~ 13 discussion of those who do kiddushin and gittin without proper qualification and increasing mamzerim…_IF_ taking money would disqualify kiddushin, surely you can ask a shaila, you may want to go back to that office, trace them to second marriages and file testimony that wedding was invalid with a beis din in case there are baalei teshuva coming from the second marriages
Someday, so alter-Yeshuvnikim could move now too, Medinah is not taking anyone hostage, by means other than family benefits.
And the one million yidden – those who were in America would be goyim by now, in Ukraine – would be under bombs by now, in Russia – throwing bombs by now, in Iran – under aytallohs, in Syria – killed and children raised in ISIS schools …
I don’t think Israel significantly changed anyone to the worse. Europeans socialsts and Bundists were such before Maarach, Sephardim mostly stayed “masorti” as they were before .. maybe some Teimanim were negatively impacted
after almost 10 years?
Ben, excellent idea. So, instead of one father learning near a crib, not hearing the baby cry (as in Alter Rebbe’s son’s story), you can have a baby room at a kollel, so everyone could learn b’chevrusa loudly without fear of waking up the babies, and one designated father could sit near 10 babies, not hearing them all cry simultaneously.
Middos are prerequisite for Torah, whether on 2 legs or on 4 wheels.
People tend not to show same courtesy to a piece of metal that they do to face, especially if the face has a hat or a sheitel. And nobody know what you are. So, maybe if you need to know someone middos, say for shidduch or business purposes, try to follow behind in a car or step on the road in front of them.n0 > words in the parenthesis were written with you in mind!
Thanks for having me mind. I apologize I missed that. But as long as my objections bother you enough to offer a pre-buttal, mission accomplished. I am not looking to convince people, just to consider things.
kids are not starving, indeed. If someone can convince his wife to live like people lived 200 years ago, forego vacations and wooden floors, he can indeed learn his whole life while working maybe 3-4 hours a week + foodstamps.
Yserbius123, a good point, maybe start at the Gemora about it and learn from there?
I found a support for my position: Rava said: When they bring a person for judgment, they will ask: (
1: “Did you deal faithfully in business?
2: Did you set aside fixed times for Torah?
3: Did you try to have children?
4: Did you anticipate the redemption…”(Shabbat 31a)in THAT order. I already started at (3), then went to (2), still struggling with (1), don’t get me distracted with (4). (there is a rebuttal here though from the Rishonim that it is ok to predict Moschiach later in history)
someday > the local Arabs and Jews got along very well.
We have the benefit of hindsight. How well would yushuv survive under Hafetz Assad, some ayatollah, or ISIS? Most of non-Muslim minorities in the middle east are killed out or emigrate.
there is apparently a database that connects using shadchanim and also some automatic matching. How kosher is this?
Avira > choose to listen to people who are more religious, because even if they’re biased, they’re airing on the right side
While I understand the feeling, this is circular thinking. Torah tells us not to turn either right or left from it.
For example, why did R Soloveichik study philosophy? I don’t think he left a big imprint on millions of followers of Herman Cohen. Presumably, he felt that this study will enhance his Torah. I am not saying that anyone who learns secular studies is a better T’Ch, but at least in this case, this is good Torah. You showed respect to him here, but I am not sure whether you learned any of his Torah. I would be interested to hear your opinion on a direct comparison between different briskers.
Apparently, peanut crisis is not that simple. Peanut allergy is on the spectrum. So, the 20% are protected by the policy, but remaining 80% of mild sufferers could overcome the allergy by exposure, but, instead, grow with the allergy. So, for the mild cases, maybe add peanuts to your cholent. Ask your doctor fist, of course,
Donald is a non-drinker, who made this decision by observing a tragedy in the family and, apparently, holds by this decision since. At least, none of the special prosecutors caught him with a beer. You can use this amazing example of middos. And also, value of learning – easier not to start drinking or stop early than later count days after attending AA.
He also has a big family, counting both children and wives, and his grandkids go to a Jewish school.