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I am on vacation the whole year – my time is divided between doing something I like and get paid for, learning, and re-educating kinderlach
Sephardim were more influential before expulsion from Spain and Ashkenazim became – after.
There is general history trend here, as Northern Europe became stronger comparing with Mediterranean. There is a possible connection here with increased production of beans in N. Europe that was cross-grown with wheat. Population is generally limited by the amount of available protein, that is mostly coming from meat that requires a lot of grass, etc. Beans added to that, ad also lead to kitniyos (according to a T’Ch who researched this history).
Similarly, Ashkenazi lomdus reflects European science v Arab stagnation from renaissance and up. Bit I do have a lot of sympathy towards Sephardi derech that often addresses issues directly. As we discussed recently, a Sepahrdi graduate of Lakewood criticizes ashkenazim for lack of real lomdus – when you have a method that can reach any conclusion you want, it is not a method (this corresponds to Occam razor; Karl Popper definition of what theory is and to machine learning theories of degrees of freedom and VC dimension).
Avram, context there is the apparent charedi psak that fighting is a good substitute for learning. I suggested that this permits RZ opinion or at least worth asking a shailah.
In your case, you simply dismissed a well-respected rav (who is not charedi, but charedi rabbonim get up when he walks in) for expressing an opinion that one should read books about marriage and one needs to learn english to be able to read those books. Maybe, my rendering of his words was not as good as the original.
I’ve learned that our generations do not have ability to determine what is happening in the world, except maybe through midah kneged midah. So, that is what I am trying to use.
Zionists proposed to have a Jewish state in EY and that happened, and they saved millions from death and assimilation in process, and established a place where Jews can keep mitzvos and learn Torah. I am not suggesting voting for mapai, but we should acknowledge the facts.
I think a lot of tensions come from projecting old political arguments onto current events. For example, R Berl Wein traces anti-religious sentiment of Israeli lefties back to the time of cantonists where Russians required (religious) kahal to provide army recruits, leading to corruption, poor and orphans being drafted … we see same when blaming zionists for things they did hundred years ago. We discussed this and seemed to agree that (a) facts are different now and (b) arguments at that time were imperfect from our knowledge of history. For example, did it really matter what school was built or who was elected into Polish Sejm in 1939 …
To see effect of this history – look at Sephardim, where Shas combines multiple groups and there is less inter-group enmity. They did not go through haskalah and reform and socilaism – but right now, they are stam Israelis, but they are less affected by the political outrage. Maybe, we should use a Sephardi Beit Din to resolve all these tricky questions (and I know Ashkenazi rabbis who go to R Ovadia Yosef’ teshuvot on Israel-related issues).
I think I already said that a claim of raising the new generation is a good one. But (1) Israel already provides subsidies. You hear protests when they are suddenly reduced (2) unfortunately, it seems that non-charedim do not feel that growing-up charedim are their children too. A T’Ch should be someone who is well-liked by people. (3) not serving adds to that feeling that growing population will not add to the defense of the country (4) same in politics – if growing charedi vote is only to support their own benefits, this does not add to mutual feelings.
YYA,
I see in the current generation almost zero doctors. I am not in the midst of a large charedi community, though. I hear from charedi parents who are not able to convince their kids to go to college after yeshiva, because yeshivos convinced them not to. There are some who realize that they need to do something, they struggle to get to 3rd rate college for health professions – dental assistant, ophtalmologist, etc. All of that after being married for a couple of years. One of my friends was trying to encourage his son to start supporting his (son’s) family, the son said – you sent me to all these places where I did not get prepared for work. I am regularly discussing this with my kids to make sure schools don’t make them into vagabonds.YYA, so, you see that the lesson is there, but you don’t think you are great enough to deliver that. Of course, we are simply discussing the issues here, not generting psak. Now that we have a reference, you can respectfully ask whoever issued the psak you are following, what is his position on that.
YYA > burden of raising the next generation
I think this is a great – and true – argument. You just need to ensure that the rest of klal sees you as adding, and not subtracting. If communities see each other as brothers, the problems will be easily solved.
katan > As it is, the Zionists SAVED lots of people, you wrote? The Zionists are responsible for death and destruction, physical and spiritual, of millions of Jews since they started over a century ago (including the Holocaust). An arsonist could run over with a fire hose and put out a little bit of the fire that burned down a big building that the arsonist, himself started – to use the Satmar Rav’s mashal.
You start going specific and then regress to general rhetoric. Try to stay on topic. There are specific large groups of people saved due to Zionists and Medinah either physically or spiritually from assimilation (we have R Schach to confirm that it matters by his analysis that Arab anti-semitism was calused by danger of Zionist assimilation): pre-war arrivals from Europe, post WW2 survivors, Sephardim in 1950-60s, Rusim in 1970-90s. American BTs who were excited about 6-day war. Who did they destroy? As I mentioned before, my theory is that it was a choice for non-religious Jews to be a Zionist, a Bundist, a Communist, or a gvir in Amerika. I don’t think there were people who contemplated between becoming a Stamar chusid or a kibutznik. Zionism was the best choice for their survival.
> JV: Although the State of “Israel” claims to be a “Jewish State”, it is anything but. It is an atheistic state, just as much as the Soviet Union was; and it always was so.
JV, this is what I was talking about. With attitude like that, reflecting many others, I am sure, you cannot both rejeect the state as treif, and demand services from them as tzaddikim. Need to be consistent.
I learned recently an interesting halachic idea that you can discern an unclear case from how future unfolds. That is, if a korban intention was not stated clearly, you might be able to ascertain it from the actions that followed. This is applicable to unverifiable giur – if you see some years later that the ger is behaving appropriately (at a minimal level – keeping kosher, lighting shabbos candles), then the giyur can be confirmed retroactively. Consult your local beis din, don’t try it at home.
There are halochos against not looking too much and halochos of finding ways to deny possible mazerus cases. There is no mitzva to go around with a DNA kit to uncover every possible mamzer. On the other hand. R Zeira was silently avoiding shidduch with his teacher R Yochanan’s daughter because he did not trust yichus in EY comparing w/ Bavel.
YYA> It was Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who hid in a cave, not as a way of life, but to escape being killed by the Romans.
Well, he got there because he was disparaging the Romans in front of students. And it is about his way of life that Gemorah says that many followed his ways and were not successful. Others either acknowledged the good side of the regime or simply knew how to keep their mouths shut.
> are luxuries enjoyed by almost everyone
I am comparing the current maztav with our historical conditions. You are right psychologically – it is reported that person’s happiness is proportional to what he has comparing with his immediate neighbors. Move to a richer ‘hood – and be less happy. But, why not compare with how Yidden were able to live and learn in other times? If you have more resources than Rashi, why not sit and learn and try to emulate him? Or, as one ger asked – if we have now 1000 times more learners than during Rambam’s time – where are our 1,000 Rambams?
> Globally, the vast majority of Chareidim work. (Unless you define ‘Chareidi’ in No-True-Scotsman style as ‘full time learning’.)
It is worse in Israel, indeed, but similar problems exist elsewhere. We discussed it here. Educational system does not prepare for modern jobs. Best case is starting a 3rd-rated college for a medical technician job – after already married. Many using welfare programs “because they can”. All of that because “in modern times, we are too weak to follow Rambam”. If someone is weak, he is told to exercise, not to lie down and expect to be carried around.
katan> rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.
you seem to be referring to an age someone can be registered as a full time learner without being called up. So, you are saying it is Zionist zechus that so many are “learning”?!
katan > No, the Zionists need to pay the price for their own endless wars that they wickedly started against the will of the chareidim already living in E”Y when the Zionists first invaded and the chareidim begged the Zionists to stop causing trouble and to go away.
I suggest you tihnk through the whole operation. Maybe you have a plan, but I am not yet convinced –
go away where? So, not only you have no thoughts about those Jews who listen to their rebbeim and were murdered in Europe, you now suggest that Zionists should have gone – where? Back to Europe? To north/south America where they’d mostly assimilate (if they were to be admitted)? All of that in the name of the small community that existed then. What about all charedim who arrived after Zionists prepared a place for them to come?What about the proverbial hasid shoteh – would you allow him to save the drowning woman or only if she is dressed appropriately?
YYA > certainly not 18 year old singles…
So, make it 19-y.o. married once and request them visiting home every night or shabbos.
YYA > On what planet can schools teach 18 year old boys how to deal with the ניסיונות they face in the IDF, unless they are Yosef HaTzaddik?
anecdotal, but my kids invite once-in-a-while friends from yeshivishe towns to visit. Admittedly, they are not the top-level learners in yeshivos and BYs, but their parents are very “frum” and they are visually observant at their town level. You literally need to watch them constantly – they start flirting with village drunks, with no communication skills. I presume they would fall into those proverbial 30%. A normal MO student would not behave like that. They are not prepared to function outside of their community.
And, again – just start constructive dialog: find jobs that work best, find people who would do them best. Maybe send those who are stringest in their middos. Make specific requests where appropriate, but cooperate instead of demanding. It is not normal for Torah community to be looked down by ordinary Jews, including observant. You can’t blame anti-religious forces for that. Something is wrong with the picture when “Torah” Jews are seen like that. Some told me that when R Meir Shapiro was visiting Canada and started crossing the road, a local policeman, without knowing who that person is, immediately stopped traffic to let the Rav come through. This is how it should be.
NP > one does not mitigate the other.
Intellectually, I am with you. But we have an idea that someone involved in communal affairs is recognized and also might lose out in learning (Pirkei Avos, Mordechai). All the shluchim with their children growing up in non-religious towns – not all of these children are going to become talmidei chachamim. According to the logic of the “tzahal” threads – what they are doing is too risky and it is safer to sit at home and talk about hesranos of others.
Most of sephardim are into “real chassidim”. The ones mentioned in gemora.
IzoBar, it is legit to look at our own sins, this does not excuse the murderers. We have this discussed re:mitzrim who prosecuted Jews eemingly to fulfil Hashem’s promise.
I don’t think it is likely “zionist” fault, as they were a significant part of those who survived and prospered after that. I heard from R Steinsaltz that we are too close to WW2 to understand it – gemora writes about reasons for BM destruction hundreds years later.. Now, 30 years later, ot may still be too close
YYA > Hashem created this force to keep us the עם הנבחר, even when some don’t want to be.
Well, this does connect with Zionism. R Schach writes that because early Zs were ready to go to Beirut University, antisemitism had to be activated – to protect them from intermarriage. Inter alia, this means that R Schach thought that Hashem cares about Zionists …
But while the hesranos of Zionists are obvious, their achievements are also easy to see – all Jews who were saved through their efforts. If you want, they diagnosed the problem well – that Europe is not just dangerous but more dangerous than before. Their solution may not have been perfect. But those who had perfect solutions but missed out understanding urgency of the question were less helpful. It may be not a surprise that Herzl that lived the modern life understood Dreyfus affair and what it implies while some rabbonim who were not involved in the world.
yankel > if you would substitute the word OTD , with “serious major sickness” , you would not be so flippant …
Is it so important to avoid major sicknesses? How many charedim went into medicine to help deal with them?
yankel > fact is that RZ tried for years and still suffer a 30% OTD rate.
I am not qualified to analyze this number and who is included. I’ve seen some pretty political and extreme people who call themselves RZ. I think they became like that due to ideological education rather than army. And if they go further away in the army, it will be their previous experience and not the army’s fault. I see same in MO community in US. On one hand, a number of day school grads going in a wrong way, but then many of them came from problematic families to begin with.
But practically speaking:
1) charedi community had 80 years in the desert to adapt, courtesy of Israeli taxpayers. This is double of what Hashem thought is necessary to fix a generation of yetzey mitzrayim. If 80 years is not enough, then you have to plan to come back to society when Moschiach comes and establishes a perfect society – but it will be achieved by mitzvos of others.2) continue repeating your (reasonable) conditions of joining the army instead of flat rejection, Look for ways to do something productive. Organize a unit of delivering food, another – giving divrei Torah, another – watching over neighborhoods. Do it on your own, dont wait for army to come knock on your door.
YYA > what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel?
This is a good point, or rather two: Torah and population.
On Torah – so, many/some chilonim do not value that, so we can’t make them pay. I think we agree on that. But then, RZ and traditional Jews surely value torah learning, If you unite with them, this will be prob > 70% of Jewish population, How do we achieve this unity? Maybe by extending some good will towards them? not just sending someone to the army, but that too. Also, fnding a way to have classes, maybe respect to those who have different shitot. It is really a hillul Hashem when people professing being so religious are not always finding hen in the eyes of their brothers.
On population – everyone should appreciate it, and I think Medinah is providing reasonable resources assisting in raising children. Again, I think, the support will be higher if they’ll see charedim as their true brothers.
I don’t like the idea, but you can even claim that these “extra” children do not decrease the draft – that will be the same wree these children not born.. To make this legal, have a law that first 3 children are drafted.
yankel > katan is still stuck in the 1800’s where colonial powers rule and indigenous populations still live ‘peacefully’
this was not just 1800 – colonial system worked until WW2 and even later in Africa. But you are right that there is a systemic problem here: Judaism is long-term and conservative. This works well most of the time – except when it does not. This is lfe in general – Avraham is going around teaching for years, which is his great achievement, and then he needs to make a decision in one second to stop shechting his son and switch to a ram. Similarly, we have crossing of Yam Suf. And then establishing new approaches after destruction of beis hamikdashim.
So, our times change pretty fast (siman of Moschiach?) – we barely learned to open fridge on Shabbos and then we have whole Torah on our phones and chatgpt paskening. So, it is understandable that people cling to old ideas for too long. Does not make it right, though, when it contrqdicts the facts.
chief,
I would not fully discard the theory that it is Zionist fault. Of course, arrivals of so many people trying to establish a state ignited opposition.
But this has to be balanced against the real need to save Jews, both physically and spiritually, from the dangers of Europe and later Arab countries and USSR. Was Uganda an alternative to create a safe place for all Yidden and keep EY for only a small religious community? Possibly. But then everyone who hold by 3 shevuos should have spend their energy looking for the right Uganda, As it stands, Zionists saved lots of people, and RZ influenced them to the degree they could.In some cases, Zionists under-performed because of their ideological bias. for example, starting mid-20s, they consolidated funding via sochnut instead of previous private efforts. As a result, money were directed to kibbutzim – both to hold the land and to propagate the “way of life”. Kibbutzim always required support, as all socialist enterprises anywhere … The alternative, previously advocated by gevirim, was to invest in the manufacturing base in Tel Aviv – that was creating jobs. As a result, many in Europe, including Germany, were reluctant to come because of the lack of jobs.
yankel> for haredim this is totally unconceivable .
You need to “pay the price” for the luxury of living in the modern world. I presume if someone wants to live the ways of R Shimon b Shetach, there are still caves in the world where one can settle. But, apparently, most people prefer having chairs, food from the store, phones without wires, roads without manure. This price can be paid either by working or serving and it can be paid by teaching in schools how to interact with the world, including chilonim and the army – so that 20-y.o. go there without becoming OTD. This is not such a high price to pay, historically. Imagine you live 500 years ago – how much time you’d have to spend getting your food, cooking, walking, earning to have a couple of seforim – this generation is doing ok in terms of time available for learning.
yankel, thanks for putting it all together. I kind of knew all pieces, but not necessarily in the temporary context. It seems that the problem is that nobody wants to work towards a compromise. It appears that part of SC reasoning was that Tal Law did not lead to any meaningful enlistment of charedim, so your opinion that Tal Law specifically lead to increase in anti-draft behaviors is not supported.
To summarize the timeline: in 1940s 400 got exemptions, in 1970s – 2% of draftees were affected by the exemptions and roshei yeshivos were strict about who gets the exemptions. By the 1990s, there are 5 to 20% of all draftees getting exemptions and R Schach _making an _effort_ to clean up the rolls of those who are really learning… So all of that before Tal law became a reality and Tal law did not bring significant draft increase. So, post-Tal SC might have made army environment worse – but it is not the source of draft resistance. Maybe, the difference is that initial resistance was against the wishes of the leadership and current one is seemingly with support.
Just Visiting > Israel is a Jewish State. We can’t demand the law force the seculars to keep the Torah, but we can demand that the law accommodate those that wish to do so.
I think I agree with you on this statement. And, B’H, there are a lot of Israelis who do. I don’t think Israel treats religious Jews worse than other benevolent countries where Jews live in our times. In US, many observant Jews work, some learn some of the time (in hours or years), some get government payments as if they are poor by necessity. In some countries, not US, government pays for Jewish schools.
If you are demanding more than that, I am not sure what is your basis? I can only think that you expect more from a Jewish state. I sympathize with that feeling – but it really means that you view Jewish state as a great institution that is supposed to fight for your desired environment. This is more Zionist than any Zionist I ever met.
> Zionists made a tremendous mess, especially for Jews,
The world at the time was a mess. Growing nationalism and communism in Europe was a great danger. Zionists were among those who understood the danger. In hindsight, the best solution for Jews would have been to all join together in trying to find safe places and maybe try to make those countries they lived in stronger ad wiser. We see that Jews play significant role in US politics, see people like Kissinger, but many others also. Let’s go back to Poland in 1920s – where the newly reconstructed country (was partitioned from 1790) enjoyed democracy – Poles fighting each other Polish Jews fighting each other, while being surrounded by Nazis and Soviets. If some Yidden instead of arguing about pro- and against Zionism, would gather information about tanks and airplanes Germans and Russians were building and explain the danger to Polish government, maybe they had a chance.
hakatan > Had the Zionists never invaded, the land would have presumably been ruled by the Christians, with individual religious councils for Jews and, liHavdil, Muslims, living peacefully in their respective areas as they did prior to the Zionist invasion.
Great, thaanks for articulating your assumptions! This sounded reasonable in 1915. So, I would very much understand Rabbonim who said it then. But, again, look at the last 100 years – how many countries in the Middle East, or elsewhere, are still controlled by Christian colonizers? Statistically speaking, EY would eventually be like one of the neighbors – Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. Most likely ruled for some times by militant anti-religious fanatics like Syria, having civil wars, having ISIS run it for 5 destructive years. As it was Syria and Egypt briefly united in an Arab Socialist Republic, this would probably be stronger if they had a direct link through Palestinian socialist republic. Probably, joining arab and USSR oil production into a stronger cartel; Sephardim and Soviet Jews staying under their power. All of that is the most likely outcome of that anti-Z vision. Again, I am not blaming rabbonim for not being naviim, same as those who told Yidden to stay in their European communities. But we have the benefit of knowing history, need to start paying attention.
yankel > Litvish do not have a ‘problem’ with lubavitch .
One problem is that (people you call) Litvish tend to ignore the great work Chabad does with non0-religious Jews. When they finally decided to join, they called it “kiruv” as the first point of reference is that they are closet to Hashem. This is not the same as Litivish R Salanter, for example.
Izobar > Again the point is that Jews arrange living together has not been a peaceful coexistence so it cannot just be blamed on zionists.
There is also a difference between a small group of poor scholars in a couple of towns and large community. To insist that the small community could have lived happily thereafter also implies that the fate of those other Jews does not matter. So, those hundreds of thousands who sometimes ignored psak of their rabonim and were saved in EY; Sephardim who found themselves in unfriendly socilaist/muslim countries [yes, part of the hatred was due to forming of Israel, but as we see by now, all of these countries were bad for everyone in their countries]; those USSR Jews who were able to get out of communist paradise – all of that does not matter as long as several tzaddikim in Yerushalayim would live happily under President Yassir Arafat. I wonder whether any of gedolim ever suggested that?
yankel > .Steipler clearly permitted maintaining the “State”
I am trying to understand why a dialog on certain topics is clearly not happening. I think the reason is that people who were reading or, more likely, hearing stories about events in previous 100 years, hear censored narratives where all rabbis were following certain shitah and never talked with anyone else – they are not able to believe any information that contradicts that narrative – and they come up that every quote that is not from their narrative is obviously fake. That might explain the story of “making of a gadol” that was a very well researched book – but allowed information that is usually censored, This is an example where a desire to have strong social bonds within the community clash with Torah value of Emes and, while admiring how it kept large communities away from dangers, the danger of developing non-Emes community in the name of Torah is also immense.
yankel > the word unelected here means that the SC do not derive their power directly from the people
> only from the law , which in turn derives its power from the people
> since the state of Israel was founded as a democracyDirect democracy was practiced in Athens where citizens were voting on all issues and that fell up pretty quickly. Most modern countries have various mechanisms that limit voter participation. Courts are part of that – as well as of Torah law. This is not a problem in itself. I agree that unelected parts of the government should be limited in how far they can go. Many such systems have some flaws or undefined areas that lead to disputes. As Israeli law is mix up of Turkish, British, Jewish legal systems and was not built by philosophers or Talmudists, the fact that there are flaws is not surprising.
If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.
katan> then they should also never stop to eat and drink because learning is more important.
how is that a chiddush for you? There is so much written that a learner should eat so much as to sustain himself to learn.
coffee > I don’t think Yehoshua was the same scenario because he could’ve asked the urim vteumim and that was a milchemes mitzvah
That is making things even clearer: after consulting and having a milchemes mitzva, Yehoshua is still told that he needs to learn – at night, after fighting. Not that you can do one of them and Hashem will count. Not that you can even have one group fighting and another shteiging.
“you suggest transformation between different substances upon Rabbi’s decision?”
Can you rephrase that in simpler English?I understand that you mean – Rabbi looks at the demonstrators and says “you are learning” and get same benefits?
katan > the Jews lived peacefully there.
You keep repeating this. And I understand where it is coming from: people at the time who were affected probably had a lot of things to say. I think I saw Chofetz chaim writing about this tragedy, I don’t think he blamed any Jewish groups. But this is one event. Look at the bigger historical picture beyond one tragic event – what would happen if Zionists were not there?
1) as I described several times and you did not reply – pattern of arab politics in 20th century shows Jews would be in big danger like all other minorities
2) what would be the story of all Jews who found safe haven in Israel? Do you insist that you should all have stayed in Europe before WW2? Went to Argentina and Uganda after WW2? Sephardim stay in Arab countries, see item 1? Russians stayed in USSR and now being deployed to the war in Ukraine?
yankel > Reality is shifting . So arguments which are a response , are obviously shifting too.
Maybe I was not clear. I am not talking about a historical shift. I am saying that there is simultaneous PR that lomdei Torah need to be protected and value of learning, but then not allowing anyone who is member of the community to join. This is using the crown of Torah for something else.
I also may not be familiar with the reality on the ground – what is the formal definition of who is exempt? I understand the system of yeshivos certifying that someone is learning there and possible problem with verifying that. Is everyone having those papers? Or there are people who are not enrolled in the yeshiva but having some other status? based on the neighborhood? family?
Is a war between Iran and Iraq with a million killed a Zionist fault? Prosecution of christians in all Arab countries? Saddam Hussien regime in Iraq and Hafetz Assad in Syria? Ayatollahs in Iran? ISIS?
Would you think if EY was under Arab rule, none of that will apply to Jews who were there? What about Jews from other countries that needed a place to escape? Would US take everyone? Or Uganda?
Even threads like that are useful – they tell us more about posters and those they represent, rather than about what they write about. So many people profess their utter respect for Toirah and gedolim, and then go low when they think they have a license to do so.
yankel> by some satmar guy …
I don’t think any of people who love quoting Satmar Rebbe have anything to do with Satmar Chassidus. Nor are they learners of R Elchonon Torah. They only bring them to support their own opinion, That is, they would quote a Rav because the Rav happened to agree with them. Olam afuch.
YYA> The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. … Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור.
Look, I am not a chosid of Ben Gurion. It may be a complicated historical discussion who did what and what it means. Most people in Israel now are not even descendants of those early Zionists – so many people came from Europe after WW2, from Sephardi countries, from Soviet golus, from USA …
We are mostly talking about how to relate to the current situation. Yonah learned from the kikayon that people in the city matter for Hashem. Surely, the same applies to citizens of Israel.
And as to “giving over”, we need to do it honestly. There are varying halachik opinions about modern life, and it is not really “giving over” when you present one of the position as unquestionable halakha. Beis Hillel would present position of B Shammai before theirs.
YYA> our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.
This is beautifully said. I don’t think we should not defend positions when this becomes possible. There is a story about R Salanter who encounter a free-thinker in an inn. He suggested to have a debate and the loser will take off his jacket (conservative v modern) and wear the other one. They sat down and R Salanter took off his jacket, preparing to either win or lose. His opponent refused to take his jacket off. The R Salanter refused to have an argument with someone who is not prepared to fight till they find emes … on the other hand, maybe you mean the other saying of R Salanter: you should always advocate for Yiddishkeit, sometimes even with words …
yankel > It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws.
Notice your language is loaded – “unelected SC”. SC is a legal structure. Unelected is part of taht structure. I don’t take positions here. If they have “no legal power” that really means that at the end of the political process, they’ll lose. Israeli law is an amalgam of multiple legal traditions, so there might be things that allow different interpretation. Hopefully, it will done while keeping shalom between people.
coffee> Thanks for teaching me the Halacha
either I am not getting the irony or they did not discuss that in your cheder?! Or everyone was such a tzaddiq that this never came up?
And, according to your opinion, it is possible for a gadol to declare that going to the Army is equivalent to learning?
Then, I suggest 2 approaches:
1) follow RZ gedolim
2) respectfully approach your gadol and ask whether he is amendable for such declaration l’ darkei shalom. Maybe, just a tryout for a week before end of bein haazmanim.coffee > therefore it follows that what they were doing has the same benefits as learning Torah
you suggest transformation between different substances upon Rabbi’s decision?
When malach told Yehoshua that he came because Jews were not learning during the war – Yehoshua could just say that when I order the fight, it counts as learning?! Or why he did not designate bnei Levi to sit and learn?