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Indeed, learning Pi does not take much time in our days. Still, it might have been an elevated subject at some point.
But this does not mean that we can’t find more complex issues, for example in social policy and in psychology. See, for example, lectures by Yisroel/ Robert Aumann, Noble in economics, where he connects his work in game theory with Gemora. Note one comes up in a month in Daf in Ketubos 93.
And yet another reason to know modern life is to be able to apply Jewish approach to modern problems, from personal behavior to society. This is what, presumably, learning Bavli gives us – a method to solve future problems. See, for example, work by Israeli Supreme Judge Moshe Elon, trying to apply halakha into modern Israeli British-Turkish legal system. Whether this was , or can be, successful, is not relevant here, but just the effort to compare multiple legal systems is fascinating.
Avira, there is a psychological phenomenon that hinders your learning. It is called “crystallization” – if you get two pieces of information with a time lag, people usually absorb the first one and somewhat discount the second, see (Noble winner) Kahneman , Tversky. Same in Choshen Mishpat – you have to have both litigants in front you before listening to them.
You probably started learning the sugya not going from Sh’A, but by learning Birkas Shmuel with his strong opinion. After that, you are either explaining away others (starting with Shach) or declaring them apikoirosim. It is tiring to go point by point and review them all – why kabalah mentioned by Shach is there for a different reason than math and 100 of other of your tirutzim.
You would be better off learning a sugya by looking at all rishonim and opinions that you disagree with before trying to explain them away.
ok, interesting, so halochos of courtyards do not apply to stam neighbors who do not share a yard?
you may also look at Ketubos 60 that discusses how children can be affected .. these are mostly food, but it starts with a mill – whether it is sounds, vibration, or pollution. Thinking on a good side, maybe children will be good in music.
Avira, thanks for the ref. to YD. How do you understand Shach there? He appears to interpret the chochma as studying esoteric subjects, including Kabbalah as opposed to, or before, halakha.
A couple of notes comparing with modern “chochma”:
1) By Rashba, it would be OK to study anything not avoda zora as long as it is not a fixed occupation. I would say, someone who has enough money to live and then makes studying Chinese philosophy his daily routine after shacharis would qualify. But would you say that taking a semester class is not temporary?
2) Often, one can gain indirect understanding of Torah and ability to argue for it from studying surrounding materials. I think R Ovadia Yosef explains Rambam this way – that all philosophy that Rambam learned was for the glory of Torah. Take an example of someone who works in academic environment and meets western-education public. He needs to know a lot not just to protect himself from their argument but also to explain them Jewish positions.
3) A lot of current “education” is really job training. 99% of professors are not aware of Aristotle, unless this is their direct line of work. The liberal stuff that is being injected in every subject is not “chochma”. Propaganda may be more dangerous than chochma, but off topic for this thread, I think.
Avira,
pre-modern science was very different. While there were experiments here and there, a lot of “chochma” was philosophical speculation that, in their view, did not require experimental support.It well may be “chochma” could be different when used by different authors and in different context,
so if you claim that Rashba includes math and science here, which might be, you need to show that.> rishonim say it, like the rashba and rivash above –
you mean to say that rishonim Rashba abd Rivash say that, other Rishonim – not necessarily.
I am not wondering how ranked choice works, I am wondering how it affects politics.
Democracy is shaped up by the election rules. American system generally pushes people towards broad coalitions and more moderate candidates, with additional debates within the parties. Israeli system allows 120 members from 30 different parties, allowing for multiple coalition perturbations depending on the issue of the day. It may be that different systems suit different people, or times, better. You just can’t divide Israelis into two camps. Some may be right-wing on religion but socialist on welfare. Others are left-wing on religion but right-wing on arabs, etc.
So, if this ranking will change who gets elected, I am for caution.
Ok, so you are haver with the neighbor. Sit down together and learn a couple of sugyot in Bava Basra and then decide:
1) when two houses are across each other and one roof is higher and provides a view of the lower one. The lower one can force the other one to build a fence to prevent looking! That is, it is up to the one who is a mazik to fix the problem.2) what kind of noises can neighbors in a courtyard object to?
Avira, what exactly are you referring to in YD 246?
huju + 1. Peshara before din. Maybe offer to relocate the bird feeder further away and help doing it.
Any professional job requires further education while yo are working. Whether you are a teacher, a lawyer, a software developer. Often, you need it to just keep up with recent developments. During Rema times, some would just read Galen (and, according to a story, Vilna Gaon rejected an eye doctor like that). In our time, there is so much new, and also you will want to check your own experience against knowledge of others.
Some can do it on their own, others go take classes. Just make sure, you are not wasting money and time and that you are doing your job honestly, that is to the best of your abilities. Not my words. I once attended a talk from a Rov, who also worked as a professional. Students asked him all kind of questions that they could not ask “learning Rovs” – how do you keep kashrus, take off yomim tovim, etc. He started with “before I answer your questions, I want you to know the first halakha – you owe 8 honest hours of work to your employer”. (this includes halochos like you can not take a night job if you will be tired at your main job).
I am no English teacher. I tested google docs: it does not like “My friend and I”, but it has no problems with either Voters, including I, and including me.
> I understand zivug sheni as the second marriage not missed marriage
RebE, I agree with the rest. I think at least Meiri understands this as early marriage until ~ 20, after that, you may get “what you deserve”. I recall a discussion of possibly missing a zevug. Maybe if you are less than 20, you do not have much time to miss it: your parents find it for you, and, unless it is a gross error that is obvious, most likely they do it right. After all, parents get a siyata d’shmeya naming their children – how many people complain that their name does not fit them? not many. Ok, you have a second name just in case. So, maybe parents get a similar help min hashamayim when doing a shicuh?! just a sevorah, I don’t have no sources.
> Why not move to Baltimore and buy a huge lot
From what I know of Baltimore, you also have to be at the gun shot distance from your neighbor at least. Maybe, a better idea is to move to Chicago, and then your wife will forget about bird feeders and worry about other crimes.
Amil > Alaska voted for ranked choice voting.
Indeed. I don’t think that most voters (me included) understand how such voting will change elections. It is not that simple, as it will change how candidate position themselves, where money goes, etc. And, of course, after you change and something goes wrong, it will be hard to change back.
So, we should watch carefully the small number of places that use the new system and see whether it will affect voting system to the worst, such as enabling more radical candidates through. I am very much a Perotist following “if it aint broken, do not fix it”. Some may not like certain US policies, but American electoral system is probable the most stable among modern democracies, maybe second to UK that was not pure democracy for a long time though.
Can our dems friends explain how they relate to:
1) Biden breaking his promise that he will provide relief “up to 10K” per person, as the actual help seems to be 2-3 times larger. He actually tried to make it look like 10K by dividing it in 2 parts – 10k for everyone under XK, plus 10k for pell granters, plus less payments for everyone under XK, plus dismissal of interest for 2 years already.
2) Biden cheating Manchin – the BBB was reduced by a trillion due to inflation worries, took a year to agree to that, even called it “inflation reduction” (i.e. we are not increasing it). but then he spends another $0.5-1T on student loans. Can Manchin still get mad or is it too late?
3) Biden spokesman claiming that this action “is paid for” because overall government spending is less this year as there were huge Covid expenses. Obvious joke, and also at the same time reducing covid spending, such as stopping sending free tests.
if you insist – the first one was “gadol” as he was involved in billions of dollars of questionable transactions. The second could actually be a gadol if he knowingly risked his life to protest. It is also possible that he made that statement trying to save his company from sanctions, but had crossed some other criminals. So, he is sofek gadol.
having a workshop in a courtyard is a problem. Neighbors can not object to a teacher who has noisy children coming, but can object to other types of noise and smell. How is bird feeder different if it causes noise or other artifacts? Would be the same for a noisy pet.
> there is no Shidduch crises Hashem already has every persons zivug
and I am not hungry because Hashem provides food for everyone! There is a lot of fineprint in Sotah – if you miss your original zvug, then you get another one according to your deeds. Even for the pre-ordained, it says so-and-so is for the daughter of so-and-so! So, a boy presumably has a choice of sisters (who may be way different ages) and sisters have a set of potential chatanim to compete for! (unless there are commentaries that explain this Gemora differently)
> MRS. SEMINARY GIRL
I applaud her for continuing learning after marriage, but could you please take her out of the dating pool for the sake of sholom bayis?!
> decided that my wife is an adult, and she can work it out with her neighbor herself.
so, the question is who needs to deal with the issue? Here are arguments that husband should:
Housing is mentioned as husband’s obligations (source: Ketubot). Rambam’s Hilchos Ishut ch 12-13. 13:5 says that he needs to provide according to his wealth. So, if she is used to live in a quiet house and he can afford such, one would think she can insist on that. But if he can’t afford it (which is quite possible with current prices), then he does not have to. Note here that for kids only minimal necessary things need to be provided, does not have to be according to his wealth.
Rambam also says to provide the wife appropriate clothing to visit her father, wedding, funerals, but not more than 1-2 times a month! So, maybe her house needs to be livable then!
13:15 Both spouses can object to bad neighbors and force a move. (can we call a bird feeder a bad neighbor because he is not considerate of others?) Also, both can object to in-laws or anyone visiting.
13:18 Husband can not force move from pleasant to unpleasant surroundings (and other way around!) So, definitely, one can not move to the bird feeder!
Also, husband is obligated to pay for long-term medical care. So, it is just a smart idea to deal with the issues before the wife goes completely bezerk!
Let’s reverse this and take an opportunity to contemplate whether we ever fed the birds but annoyed people, or more generally did something what we thought is a groise mitzvah, while not being sensitive to others. R Avigdor Miller mentions walking early morning for slichos, slamming the door, reminding a nearby widow that her husband used to go… R Salanter – doing long divrei Torah preventing servants from having shabbos rest
There seems to be a new epidemic in the world – a CFO of a large companies jumped out, several days ago a Russian oil company CEO who said something about the war. The first one was in yichud situation with his wife, the second presumably with some men he did not know.
okok, indeed, it is a fair question, as the husband needs to provide for the wife, she can claim that the place with unbearable sounds is unlivable, and he is indeed chayav to fix it. A simple, sad, way some towns did this – use chemicals to kill the bugs and then there will be no birds.
Seriously, try noise-canceling headphones. There are different types. See if they will help.
> nobody has deemed benefits to be tzedaka.
You are right. R Henneman dismisses the idea that non-Jews support poor w/ tzedokah. To clarify: my problem with that is that Yoreh Deah that in one place uses the word tzedoka, but in others more general “depending on people”. And, again, all of that is about people who are in financial difficulty they can not get out of by themselves. Even that seems to be a problem. Not about taking money for poor and use them to support learning. The source about learning all seem to allow it when taken from Jews for learning. I am not able to find a source that allows using public assistance funds for poor to use them to support learning instead. Does anyone else have such sources?
get rid of bird feeders or of crazy wife?
check, or test, whether ultrasound anti-mice devices work also on birds. Young kids are able to hear the ultrasound. (Malls sometimes put annoying sound to get rid of teenagers). So, depending on the wife’s age, might work on her also.
Sephardim came to US before Ashkenazim did … But I agree that latest Sephardi arrivals benefited a lot of Ashkenazi assistance. As R Kamenetsky said at R Ouerbach’s yeshiva – Moshiach will come from there because they had top classes in Ivrit, enabling Sephardim to attend.
No doubt, when Sephardim got thrown into modernity, they encountered same problems Ashkenazim did 200 years before that, and Ashkenazi experienced helped them. Ashkenazim lost way more people to Reform and communism. That does not mean that Sephardim need to abandon their own Torah.
I am trying to understand R Heinemann’s position. Granted, it is an off-hand remark during a lecture, but he seems to be pretty confident in this. His two arguments are: (1) non-Jewish motivation is not tzedoka but self-interest (2) government is not baal tzedoka but uses taxes. Note that he is seemingly talking about getting tzedoka in general, not for learning.
First, Shulchan Aruch (YD 254-255) says it is osur to get tzedoka from non-Jews in public – unless he can be assisted by Jewish or private non-Jewish funds. Not sure whether SNAP etc are “public”. Is getting assistance public? maybe not, especially as there are now electronic cards rather than visible food stamps, for those who remember. Still, S’A does not hang to the word “tzedoka”. YD 255 is way more expansive – one should roll in pain (tzaar) rather than depend (itztarech) on human beings (briyut), this expression repeated twice. This does not seem to allow parsing motivation of givers, whether they are Jews, idol worshippers or bnei Noach, whether it is a private donor or law-based system. Not sure if even Yang’s $10K passes this.
YD 256 follows that saying that those who deceive “haam” will later need actual charity (lashon Rambam). Now, here the words are tzedoka and “am”, so we are talking about Jewish tzedoka. Would this mean to permit “getting around” rules for public assistance? Would need a reference for that. Also, several commentaries of YD 254 mention “hillul Hashem”, and it is no doubt that even rare cases of Jews accused or arrested lead to that.
To summarize, “there are those who allow”
1) non-Jewish assistance for those who need it and
2) getting community support for Torah learning (shevet Levi)so even if you are meikil on both of these, you still need (3) to equate “those who need it” with “support of Torah learning”. Vaad position above asks for Jewish public to support learning, not the non-Jewish, or for non-religious community in Israel.
So, there are 3 difficult steps here, each requiring a lot of justifications and kulos. Would you eat hot dogs that have so many levels of kulos?
Syag > , finally a possible source for the animosity
I really, really have no personal issues here, just concerns for klal isroel. I am talking about those in the community, and their wives, who try to justify that they are stopping being “full time learners”.
> But why is it your business?
Because it is our Torah (as an am haaretz said to R Yannai) and our community. And I want it to be better, like each of us. So, we can disagree what is the right direction, and it is ok, and we can discuss this here, but questioning motivation is just silly. You could spend this time in finding better arguments for your position.
I am still looking for an explanation why is it so magically important for a mass of people to be “full time” learners instead of “80% time learners” and be machmir according to Gemora and Rambam. And I am sure there are some who go this way and they should be fully supported by the community and not feel like a failure because they work.
> You don’t seem to worry about the purity of your heros who push college and higher education?
I am all for being careful with college. And I talk about that with my modern friends, and with kids. Most concerns are about behaviors and also indoctrination. I think most of us here agree on this so there is no raging debate.
Furthermore, if someone is studying engineering wrong, then he will become a mediocre engineer. As long as he does not design a bridge that will fall, he will have a poor career. When someone goes into learning a wrong way, he then becomes a teacher of your and mine kids.
how about simple physics:
when you hear a man and a woman, voices mix, and there are some, like yakish, who use it for kulos.
I am not aware that seeing both men and women inappropriately dressed lead to any kulosLakewood Bays Vaad quotes Rambam that support learners who are willingly supported by community.
We also learn from this that it is ok to rely on Rambam, even when he disagrees with Chazal. This contradicts some T’Ch here.
Of course, we know that there is another Rambam that, on the surface, contradicts the above. I am a little puzzled why the Bays Havaad skips it. They could probably explain the stira somehow.
Syag > Why do you have such animosity toward full time learners?
I think it was a right emergency measure after WW2 to send everyone who could, or could not, to learn as much as they could. I think the emergency time has passed, we have large communities that need to do all mitzvos in the Torah and we need to make learning pure. Those who want to be so holy that they do not have time to earn a living, should find sources of money for that: sponsors, yissachar/zevulun contracts, fathers-in-law, wives and children who want to work, whatever it takes.
Syag > You posted two megilas explaining that govt money is NOT tzedaka
Yes, I search and found support for your positions, as you did not bother to do it yourself. I’ll look further to analyze this.
ujm, there is a big difference between visual images and sounds. Images make a great impression, that is why Torah restricts images, esp 3D. Listening and reading provides information that you can process with your mind and analyze. Very hard to question images. A famous example is of Nazi “documentaries” showing Polish thugs destroying Jewish stores. The message was that Germans came to make order. Of course, the movie omits German soldiers who brought the thugs there in the first place and are now standing with guns behind the camera.
Avira > Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn’t on the level of gedolei olam
Maybe he grew up in a different society than Chofetz Chaim with different attitudes and had different sensitivities? For one, it seems from the other story that R Ovadia did not have “another room” like Chofetz Chaim did… Another story that even in later years, R Ovadia lived in a small apartment and someone visiting him realized that the apartment does not have place of all seforim R Ovadia is quoting, so he apparently was quoting by heart.
More generally, Sefardim did not go thru haskala period and thus have more coherent communities without separating in bitter sub-groups, each trying to find faults with the other. So, a Sephardi Chacham can allow himself a moderate opinion without being called names. As the story quoted here before said “Hu Rav, Ani Chacham”.
Here is from Lakewood Bays Havaad, covering some of the sources we talked about here:
Question: We have stated that one should avoid taking tzedakah if he has the option of supporting himself. Today, there are thousands of people learning in Kollel. Many of them are supported by the public’s generosity. Since they technically could get a job and support themselves, is learning full-time a contradiction to the Gemara’s statement that one should avoid taking charity?
Answer: It is true that Chazal say it is preferable to take any job than to live off of tzedakah; however, the Rambam says that anyone who accepts to spend his days learning Torah should be supported by the public.
In olden times, Shevet Levi sat and learned all day and they were taken care of by the rest of the nation. The Rambam says that anyone who so desires can emulate Shevet Levi and accept to learn full-time while the public supports him.
These people are needed to sustain the world through their Torah studies, and, therefore, are an exception to the above-stated rule that one should do any kind of labor in order to avoid accepting charity. All Poskim agree that this is true and maintain that supporting such men is an ideal form of tzedakah.
The Chofetz Chaim speaks about this in many places and says that the best use of tzedakah funds is to support poor Torah scholars who wouldn’t be able to learn otherwise without your help. These funds directly contribute to the dissemination of Torah through the generations and are necessary to sustain the world.
In support of Syag’s position: I found R Moshe Heinemann in 2017 video on Tzedakah explaining that we do not get _tzedokah_ from goyim because tzedokah has a special zhus and we do not want to give it to others and would rather have it ourselves. At the same time, government support is NOT tzedokah: (1) they do not do it as chesed, but rather to prevent poor people from misbehaving, such as stealing, (2) government is not a baal chesed, they are taxing rich people, so they are not providers.
Syag, I admit that this is a good question how to relate to modern welfare state, I tried to search several times, but I mostly come by sources comparing Jewish attitude towards welfare state in halakha, rather than how we can relate to non-Jewish welfare state. I’ll try more, bli neder
meanwhile, here is a 2017 statement from Lakewood Vaad after some unfortunate behaviors ( I realize this does not cover all our discussions):
There is no such a thing as “justified” theft. Federal and State social safety-net programs are meant for those in need, even those in need have rules and criteria that must be strictly followed. To deliberately bend a safety-net eligibility rule is stealing, no different than stealing from your friend or neighbor.
“We would all do well to redouble and triple our efforts in our communities, reminding each and every one of us that there is never any excuse for dishonesty in any form. Let us take this moment to speak openly of these matters, from the pulpit, in the classroom, and by parents at the dinner table, so that this tragic but necessary learning moment is not lost.
“In the days ahead we will help launch a set of intensive educational programs that can ensure that such does not happen again, and will invite the public to participate in these timely programsSyag, my sources are
– Gemora Kidushin about responsibilities of the father to teach kids (or sons?) Torah, jobs, business, and swimming;
– Gemora Bava Basra that discusses history of Jewish public education during BM2 that lists “fathers teaching sons” as the first way they tried, but did not work universally, as not all fathers were able to teach, so they searched for other ways, but there is nothing there about this approach being wrong per se.
– Rebbe Eliezer saying that teaching girls Torah is like teaching her foolishness (some more modern poskim limit hesitation to Gemorah), so I am being very careful about how girls learn and what their motivation is.AAQ “HOPEFULLY, IN TEN YEARS, THERE WILL BE ENOUGH WORKERS TO SUPPORT ALL SLACKERS”
Everyone: Are you implying that full-time learners are slackers?Sorry for inaccurate writing. What I meant to say is that I am not sure whether Yang’s income scheme will work out for the society, when so many people will stop working. Finnish experiment a couple of years ago seem to show that basic income does not encourage those who are already unemployed to start working (there was slight increase, but it seems it was attributed to some unrelated policy change). There was self-reported improvement in mental health and wellbeing from people worrying less (my words now:) about being forced to show that they are looking for a job.
But back to “slackers” issue in Jewish context:
now much time would it take for a smart person to work to substitute for welfare benefits, let’s skip medicare. To earn $1,000 at $20/hour, you need 50 hours a month, or 1.5 work days per week. I think one can be a full-time learner and carry that big of a load.ubi > Chazal say Chazaka people don’t lie if they will be found out, it doesn’t seem to be true anymore.
this might be true … this might be a sign of our assimilation into American culture with the first amendment right to say almost anything. And I do not see much difference in this aspect between modernishe and not. I wonder whether British or other Jews, who live in less boastful societies, see this better from outside. Anyone here?
Avram > they do expect people to report it as self-employed income if (minus expenses) you net more than $400 cash
it is $400, whether it is cash or not, and this is for reporting on schedule SE to compute self-employment tax. You still need to add any income to Schedule C for income tax. Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, and I use software to file, so may be wrong on the forms.
Syag > it has been argued repeatedly that no halachik authority deems benefits as tzedaka.
I am asking for sources – how do they see this issue. Maybe I missed them before.
I agree it is a complicated issue – classical sources I saw discuss benevolence of a non-Jew, not of non-Jewish society establishing a social support system and then having a rule-based approach that is same for Jews as for other people, without requiring us to convert …
So, there might be a lot of different gradations here, whether it is for strict halakha or for being machmir. I heard a number of stories, like of a Rav who had a business and who was lauded by an IRS auditor for documenting every little nekuda, and, opposite like reported here that it is possible to “get around” by hiding some income. Logically continuing this, then hiding income makes someone eligible for income-based programs, etc – this might lead to way further into dirt that I imagined. I only discussed an issue of people capable of working, choosing not to, and then using benefits.
Anyway, it would be good to hear what the halachic opinions are out there. I would not rely on “people do it, this must be approved”. We see people making questionable decisions without even realizing that they need to ask shailos. And when people ask, there should be teshuvos somewhere out there.
Are we consistent here? If you forbid Kol Isha on a recording or radio, then would you allow shofar blowing over the same media?
> Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made.
You can’t always order T’Ch according to one criterion. We follow Rav in some issues, and Shmuel in others. So, people might have different shailos whether they live in Bnei Braq or in Five towns. And you can have different advice for different people. As with R Salanter advising Konegsberg merchants to improve shabbos observance step by step – that he only gave when there were no Litvishe Yidden around.
Ubi: Exactly right, see my first comment in this thread
So then why people here post exaggerated statements? Either they don’t know exactly themselves by parroting something they heard from others or they are viewing modern camp as reshayim to whom laws of lashon hara do not apply. I would think outright lying would be osur even then.
I wonder whether anonymity here relaxes moral norms, after all it is a public forum. For example, if someone posts terrorist calls, FBI could easily get personal info from internet provider, so maybe yu can sue in beis din for damages and do the same. I know these posts are legal by us law, so internet provider will not get involved,.but ywn would need to listen to beis din.. could a ploni almoni defend his privacy , an interesting case that could help strengthen halochos of lashon hara
Ps I don’t think anonymous posters can sue to protect their – anonymous – reputation as there are no damages, but when you address actual institutions, I don’t see why not. Maybe someone can argue the opposite
Bidens mo is pretty obvious over time. He is focused on how he is being seen politically at the moment. Everything else is secondary. When a disaster happens, like Afghanistan exit, he immediately starts explaining why it was not their fault. He would say that he found no vaccines because he needed to diminish Ts role. If he really cared about students with loans, he would do forgiveness at non political time to increase support for it. But he did opposite – used the issue to help in elections even at the price of having more people angry. I don’t think he has any political goals outside of his own standing.
Even as RebE is calling for good disagreement, I can’t find what to disagree with!
People in glass houses 🏘️ should be careful rejecting Torah based on some behavior… We have here a poster admitting underreporting his income and evén implying that many do the same… I could easily say that this posuls his yeshiva, but given that he just used a Deborah and didn’t even ask a shaila we can assume that it is just personal aveirah and the teachers are not necessarily implicated