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> but every free moment from work must be devoted to Torah learning.
There are other things to attend to also. Just look around carefully.
It is true that in some cases someone who learns only needs to participate in a mitzva only if there is nobody else to do it. With this definition, there might still be a lot of things to do: davening/tefilin/lulav/shofar, honor your parents, getting married, teaching your children Torah and a professional job. When you are driving to learn, you are the only person who can stop this huge piece of metal from murdering people. If you have a misfortune to be a heart surgeon, then you may be the only person to save someone’s life. If you are just a stam doctor, you may be the only person to substitute for others during their holidays and thus get time off for your own yomtov and do some darkei shalom, tikkun olam, and kiddush Hashem.
Also, if you are fortunate enough to live in a city of lomdei Torah, then _someone_ needs to do mitzvos. You may hire someone to clean your hose from your meager earnings, but someone needs to do weddings and l’havdil funerals.
Mentch,
out of all modern political experiments, American one seems to be most successful, stable, and least bloody. Compare with French, Russian, Chinese experiences. It may be in part due to relatively benign British rule (that evolved over time to a very similar democracy, after all, without any revolutions) and to remoteness from the centers of violence. Still, given the success, you can’t dismiss their theories as simple hypocrisy to cover up slavery.I suspect people who dismiss American thinkers not only are trying to build up their own theories, but are also covering up their own lack of education. I measured readability level of various authors last year with kids: recent Presidents come up at 6 to 10th grade level, James Madison – as 38th grade … So, maybe people who refuse to read and engage with those arguments simply may not be able to read them.
ymrb > left tends to run further to the left, while the right tends to hold its ground,
this seems so on the surface, often to me too. I am not sure there is such an easy dichotomy of “two feet bad, four feet good”. By R Salanter, if someone is not learning well in the litvish yeshiva, a Paris professor moves towards kefira… Say, we blame “reform” – but how did they become “reform” after being members of “frum” communities. Chofetz Chaim reportedly would not great the Rav who did not admit young Trotsky. Was that Rav reform or modern? Probably, not. Who was his teacher? who hired him? If Chofetz Chaim disapproved of him publicly, then who disagreed and presumably kept him employed?
Another question – yes, we can easily see mistakes of those who accepted new directions too fast. It is harder to see mistakes of those who moved too slow. If we don’t blame those who was telling people to stay in Eastern Europe before WW2, then we should not blame those who thought they can translate Chumash into high German. The conservative slow approach is healthy and kept us going, but at some point it becomes a “safe” way to operate, like often happens, l’havdil, in government and medicine: if you follow instructions, things can turn out badly, but you will not be blamed. If you propose a new derech, then you will be blamed, even if you a Rambam.
ujm, I repeatedly asked you to bring your sharp judgment of the Russian side and their history.
RebE, a math question:
if Torah knowledge decreases and science knowledge increases, is the gap getting smaller? Will Torah knowledge will always be superior to science knowledge or maybe they’ll come to be one and same when Moschiach comes (that is, all scientists will admit to whatever Torah survives to his time). This has to do something with Karl Weierstrass and convergence of monotone functions, maybe you can recall better than I do.mentch > I am simply presenting an alternative understanding of the founding fathers
I am not objecting to alternative theories, I am proposing that you show how your theory applies to what those people actually proposed. They left lots of writings and you are showing no sign of addressing their arguments. As they were successful at building a reasonable society, we should certainly inquire at how they were able to do it. This is not to deny the negative sides of American then and later.
ujm, when you visit a sick person, do you mention to him that his sickness is due to his aveiros and his fathers’ aveiros, or do you wish him refuah shleima? You have here millions of people being bombarded, gone into exile, forced into Russian army and into participation in sham elections, and you are talking about Khmelnitsky. Why not talk about Russian czars who supported Khmelnitsky, organized pogroms, etc, then communists who killed off or sent to exile all religious Jews – and now has a President who bombs these people for the explicit goal of restoring the “glory” of both Czars and USSR.
If you happen to be in a shul this week, please listen to the story of Yona and kikayon …
> Mendlson or Heinz
I thought you are talking about a poet, but you seem to move to ketchup. Mixing up our kofrim varieties.
Alternatives – R Twerski recommends Peanuts, or at least has a book about it
Avira> In places where jews mingled, you only had pogroms, inquisitions, expulsions, massacres, and Holocausts
So, you are turning to a totally opposite position than UJM who sees a perfect view of earlier European Jewry (as those were the places of pogroms and Holocausts), with both of you claiming a undisputable power to peach to everyone else. Maybe you can figure out between each other, whose tradition is correct.
Also, lately, bli ayn hara, the places without pogroms include US with the tremendous assimilation happening in last 100 years and Medinat Israel, protected by Tzahal. We, of course, may notice that both places have great and growing Torah communities, but you can’t deny “mingling” also.
> Mendelssohn or Heine,
even in these two examples – I don’t think either was a kofer. M. was a personally observant Yid who was looking for an honest response to modernity, having disadvantage being one of the first to be confronted with it. His efforts were mostly a failure, so what. R Yochanan till the end of his life was not sure whether his conversation w/ Vespasian was or was not a failure. Many learned people failed in their anticipation and response to Russian revolution and Nazi occupations, it does not diminish their achievements. We are not Neviim.
Heine converted out of social considerations after being raised in non-religious environment, not any religious feelings. He is clear about that. He was coming back to his Jewishness later on. See his poem about Ibn Gabirol and his later diaries.
Kuvult, it is often hard to do this for kids. Many parents or schools “protect” the children by explaining that their way is the only correct one. I think we here, as (mostly) adults, have a higher chance of communicating with each other than kids. I think when discussion goes down to halachik arguments and facts, many people try to stick to the item of the discussion.
> This is bitul torah!!
Adaraba, we are saving kedusha of the Torah. You can meet here Yidden, who are either heartless or brainless or naive or corrupted to the degree that they find ways to praise murderers and murderous regimes. So, you just want to give them a patch reminding them to go back to Gemora and hope that they’ll understand halochos and aggados?! I think we are protecting the honor of Abaye and Rava from
mentsch1,
first, those were not “our founding fathers”, unless your ancestors were accountants on the Mayflower. For the rest of us – we were accepted by this country when we ran away from other, less welcoming, places. So, some of our fathers made a heshbon that this country is worth it.I do agree with you that early America was full of wild and unsavory characters. No reason to contrast with Britain, where most of those future rebels either ran away from or were sent from for their crimes.
But this makes it even more interesting to see how those rebels were able to envision a better place … if you disagree with their vision, maybe you can start with the running criticism of the federalist papers rather than snarky remarks.
Everyone gets to his own time and challenges. would I like to be a current teenager with all the luxuries but also all kind of distractions at the push of a button? No, I was not built for that, I would not survive. Choni Hameagel tried and even he failed.
1> What are ways we can bridge the gap and have mutual respect as frum Jews?
A good question. On one hand, this is a good place where we can discuss these things that many don’t get an opportunity to do in their own places. On the other hand, online discussions are prone to flaming and using stereotypes. Rarely thanked mods reduce the second part, of course. Maybe we should be less argumentive and more descriptive when we describe what is happening in different communities, so that others do not respond with immediate condemnation.
More generally, as we know, only discussions “le shem shamaim” work. So, if you are discussing in order to hear and respoect other opinions, this might work out.
> Literally none of the prewar Jewish communities of Europe would have been “good enough” for UJM.
ujm> most prewar shtetlech were very strictAs UJM demonstrates, our idea of pre-war Yidden is often limited to Fiffler on the Roof and Artsrcoll… Things were not that simple especially in the last 150 years. A couple of totally random examples, not extreme ones, about middos and education:
– Chofetz Chaim’s daughter asked her father for a brocha to have children tzadikim. Her father complied and gave her a brocha to have many children. She had to correct her Tati and asked for children tzadikim. He replied that in that generation he can’t, he can only give a brocha for having more children and hopefully some of them will be alright… There was no date on this story, but given he was born in 1830s, this discussion would be not later than 1870s. And he says this about his own grandchildren.
– Telshe yeshiva at some point lost all students to revolutionary activities and new students were sent from Slobodka. This is Lita that was more traditional than some other places.
– R Salanter’s son was an engineer, maybe in Germany. He visited his father and showed him a drawing of a naval engine that he was able to improve. R Salanter asked him not to tell him, studied the drawing, and pointed out to the improvement. He would later proudly tell (or show?) this to others. Here is a Rosh Yeshiva’s son an engineer and his father proud of second-guessing him.Not saying that there were not upright and (separately) insular communities, it is just the variety of Jewish life was more than some imagine.
Ujm, by your convoluted logic, Moscovia should be part of Kievan Rus, not other way around, and Crimea should go back to Turkey/Brits/Karaites. Maybe this is a great compromise that can stop the bloodshed: Russia joining Ukraine? It will have the territory Russians want and government Ukrainian have. At next election, Putin can run against Zelenskyy.
> seem more worried about defending the unknown teen than …
thanks for stressing this laudable aspect of my personality. “Unknown” seems like a diminutive, but it is not:
First, motzi shem ra about group of people is worse than about one person and requires a difficult and imperfect teshuva. For example, the poster might build water fountains in the towns where this group of people live (is this suggestion by Chofetz Chaim, or an earlier one, I am not
sure?).Second (unique for online discussions rather than private motzi shem ra) – very likely someone working in such a job might be reading CR and be offended by it.
> you are unaware of what it means to be in hashgocha
I understand that everyone concerned about kashrus would love to hear more insider info. In this case, though, you have a guy from one derech brushing off another one. Halochos of competing businessmen should apply to mashgihim same way as to plumbers, lawyers, or teachers. I do not see a difference here, if there is some, please enlighten me.
> defending the unknown teen than the standards of kashrus
I admit, if I were going to that restaurant myself, maybe I would worry more. As it is, I am going by what is in the post. If there is a valid concern and the poster would like to impress me, or others like me, he would be better off being specific about problems instead of offending – teen that are not shomer shabbos, who did not learn hilchos basar & chalav, whose shorts’ length is not al pi halocho, etc.
Clarifying my statement: you don’t ask a plumber about choosing another plumber, or a storeowner about other stores that they compete against. It is in halochos of lashon hara somewhere, I think. You can ask a plumber about a source of materials or about his opinion about electricians.
I hope if he were to say that someone is bad because he hires only satmars, I would respond the same. And “MO” is a way too ambiguous term. I don’t know whether that mashgiach dresses in shorts, does not wear bekesha, drinks halav stam, or responds to her/them. It is just a gratuitous slur towards a large group of Yidden, something not recommended this season.
When this war started, a lot of people were shocked and I heard several Rabonim commenting about events and Jews who are caught into that in general. At this point, this is 2nd page of the papers, but the world, and Yidden there, are still affected. There are now Yidden in Ukraine under bombs and confronting a winter with possible electricity and heat out, there are Yidden on both sides taken to the army (as there were Yidden in opposing armies in WWI), and Yidden driven away from Ukraine and running away from Russian army …
I did not see much of religious response anywhere in regular times or during yomim naroyim. Should we be saying some extra misheberachs or tehilim? Is anything happening anywhere?
What is the appropriate way? What were Jews doing during WW2? WW1? Russian revolution? pogroms?
I know that there were suggestion of a fast day during early Nazis and some did not like the idea because the suffering Jews are such that they would not fast and daven themselves (of course, we know others came into danger pretty soon). Also, Chofetz Chaim was calling for a worldwide fast for the Jews in Russia during their revolution/civil war…
>> Having worked in kashrus, I …
>> In Teaneck you have …and that is why, kids, you don’t ask professionals about their opinion about other professionals.
very hard to avoid motzi shem ra and other aveiros.Those who daven avinu malkeinu and are not full tzadikim are hoping that Hashem will remember their good intentions this week and forget aveiros “long time ago”, like last month. So they should think twice before remembering events hundreds years ago to condemn people who live under bombs and fight a clear aggressor.
Don’t say: why are you learning halocha 3 days late?
Do say: great starting preparation 6 years and 352 days in advance> Where does it say that all Yidden at the time attended Eisav funeral?
All Yaakov’s children and mishpaha came to Yaakov’s funeral and Eisav’s beheading happened at the same place & time. So, they could not be accused of “going to” Eisav’s funeral.
Esav came to Yaakov’s funeral and, at the same time, all Yidden in the world (at the time) came to his.
>> “Wasn’t there a big fight, where a number of stores claimed the Vaad was basically a mafia organization, and another hechsher was started?”
> The problem was fixedThe scariest post of the year so far, maybe as intended…
Whatever it is, there is something in his head, and we need to acknowledge that even if we need to fight his influence.
A similar discussion is about whether Yaakov should have made a shidduch between Dina and Esav instead of boxing her. Some of baalei Mussar (R Salanter?) says maybe Yaakov was correct hiding Dina but he was wrong about being so enthusiastic about locking the box, some sadness that it was not possible to help the brother was appropriate. That means we should mind our safety, but look for opportunities to help even those who attack us.
It does start with the machshava … Compare this power of thought with a pathetic leader who makes pronouncements and the opposite happens: “Afg government will be stable”,”only minor incursion is allowed”, and now he is warning reshayim who threaten to use weapons with mass destruction. Given the track record, the world needs our tefilos to melch malchei hamlachim. as the regular melachim are clearly not there.
I was pleasantly surprised by the number of people in shul lining up to sign the pruzbul. Seems like lots of humble people running private gemachim. Tizku b’mitzvos.
Depends on how you define “MO”
if you think of nominally affiliated, marginally observant Yidden, they are not “MO”, but of course should be helped
If you think of people who go to YU and maybe go to court without a kippah after attending selichos in the morning – they may not benefit from your help, as they might be more learned than you are
If you think about people with crazy modern fetishes, like OO – they might be not receptive to your preaching. You may want to take a sefer, not directly addressing their fetishes, and sit and learn with them. At some point, with more learning, they may get better
ujm, indeed, maybe this can focus us when we daven to Hashem not just for your next year parnosa but for the fate of the gantze velt… Never before in history were people informed better about what is going on, so we have no excuse not to pay attention.
We have 9 b’Av because we were crying for no reason, and then we were told we will have the reason. Same about worrying about all the nonsense.
Modern life is full of distractions. In old times, I presu,e. when Babylonian army was coming your way, everyone was scared. Now we had people before WW2 worrying about this and that political silliness rather than preparing for a real threat. You don’t read about that much in history books, as if everyone was talking about important things. They were not, and needless worrying made people miss important things. Learn from those mistakes.
> If it is truly declassified like nuclear secrets
As a Rosh Hashana thread says – be positive. Should we worry about every newspaper headline that has no facts behind it?! What if T did this or that. Save your heartburn and prayers for real reshayim, like Putin who announced 2 days ago that he might respond to nuclear threats by his nuclear weapons.
RebE, to be precise he is quoted as saying:
” you can declassify just by saying ‘it’s declassified’ – even by just thinking about it.””.Possibly first part is what he means, and the second part is a guzma.
As to the need for procedure, this is l’havdil medauraita/medrabanon issue: it may be a minor aveira to not follow instructions, but he can say that he came up with a different classification approach. This should, and probably will, go to the Supreme Court that is the right avenue to deal with Presidential powers, not local judges over the whole country attacking Trump like a pack of wolves.
mdd, so your “russia” theory seems to be like that: there was a RUS 1.
Then, most of it became slaves to Mongols. Some of this RUS 2 were relatives of princes of RUS 1. (not Moscow, but nearby, I guess).
RUS 3 joined other Slavs (Poles, etc). They are out, because!
RUS 4 (Moscovia) became best Mongol’s slaves, so they eventually got some power from their masters. Not related to princes of RUS 1, I think, but lived near RUS 2 and helped Mongols to pacify RUS 2.
RUS 5 took over multiple other nations at great violence, made RUS 4 it’s capital, then moved capital to another place but still RUS 5.
RUS 6 killed the tzar of RUS 5, let RUS 1 free, then conquered it again. “Have You Murdered And Also Inherited?!” as Eliahu would say.
After killing millions of Yidden, RUS 4 and RUS 1 and other peoples, RUS 6 legally dissolved, with RUS 4 and RUS 1 becoming separate nations.
Now, RUS 4 says I am RUS 1 and is firing artillery into RUS 1, ostensibly their own brothers.
I had fun figuring out these mathematical connections, but I still do not know why you think it makes sense.
Note what you are proposing to the world: if every country follows this tortured logic, there will be immediate wars all over the world: India/Pakistan; Japan/Korea/China; Canada/US; Germany/Poland; France/England; Britain/Ireland, etc, etc. I suggest you strt by reading some Kissinger about Westphalian treaty and its meaning, or something except RT.
jackk > How many more people is he going to send to their deaths for a war that he is losing?
Apparently, many nearby countries are not accepting people fleeing the draft. This is a very Rosh Hashonish question: what is a real teshuva?
These Russians were comfortable going to work while their country is attacking the neighbors, but are planning to flee when they personally are affected. So, is this teshuva mi’ira? Is it accepted or dismissed as self-serving? Some apparently fled when the war started but then came back as draft did not appear likely.
Maybe the safest way for the draftees is to get to the other side and fight for Ukraine – then they have a higher chance to survive. Although, they will be tortured if caught. Maybe, they should promise Ukraine that they’ll work somewhere far from the front and then ask neighbors to let them proceed on a bus directly to Ukraine.
How about Sephardim?
on history: After Chmelnitskiy, imach shmo, rebelled against the Poles, his people decided to become an autonomous part of Moscow’s Russia, and Russia agreed to defend them against the Poles.
I recall that Chm-ky wanted to partner with Russkiies against Poles, but they know only one part of partnership – of a master and an eved knaani, so he got what he earned. Midah k’neged midah indeed.
I wish .. there are no rimonim in regular stores, and a “kosher” store priced it in inverse proportion to freshness. I guess, this year it will symbolize expensive mitzvos. Can someone count – how many are those?
My Esrog seller ZT’L was great, I loved to overpay him. He was a Talmid Chacham who was following Chofetz Chaim derech using esrog sales as his means of support. When he was elderly, he moved away to his children. At one shiur, both my Rav and I mentioned that we used to do esrog business with him, and the next week we found out that he was niftar. My impression is that the neshomah travels the world at the end, at least places where the person was before.
Note that during WFH, number of shirts sold exceeded number of pants sold.
It looks like the most objectionable part is sending “without a notice”. Otherwise, there does not seem to be an issue sending people from a state neat the bvorder to another friendly state, right?
I presume no-notice had a reason. Maybe the receiving state would find a way to stop the bus or not let illegals out of the bus. Not sure. If this is not a problem, I would suggest a courtesy notice next time.
As it is, it may be an emotional storm (in a teacup), but how big is this problem? 100 people show up uninvited…They can wait at a bus stop for an hour – it took them way longer walking over the Mexican border. In an hour, people can bring blankets and food, or order them on Amazon.
Maybe the point was that Texas got these guys without an advance notice from Mexico, so NYC should feel their pain?
I was told here that graduate school is a separate institution, associated with YU just for accreditation. According to this shitah, this would be kosher. I do not like it, the names of people, and institution should mean something. “Revel” may be the appropriate name, though.
where do they spend their money during the trip? presumably on hotels, taxis and food in EY, helping support multiple Israeli families. Maybe, the goal _should_ be to make trip to Yerushalaim more popular by charging less from the visitors, as it was during olden times.
> also apply to child tax credits, transportation benefits, etc. as well, so it does not answer why you see income based benefits
This is a good question. We do generally depend on other people in modern world and it is hard to escape. Obama’s shitah is indeed that an entrepreneur “did not build that” because community provided resources. Indeed, same entrepreneur born in North Korea would rise to smuggling goods from China and we need to be grateful to people who support our lives … My feeling is that Y’D talks about any income-based help as the context is “helping the poor”, but then many tax credits are also income-based. Maybe, it means being in the category where you can take more than you give (see R Dessler defining people as givers OR takers). Maybe someone wants to look for more sources on these or ask a shailoh?
Avram, it looks like the core disagreement is whether various benefits are neutral to the desire to work. At one extreme is unemployment that clearly ties into work requirement, at the other – “universal income” that is given to all or just poor people.
I think many benefits are somewhere in between. Our own views may be colored by what learned in the family and around, so let’s look at rules. Here are again quotes from Texas. Other states may be “more generous”.
If a child’s parent or relative gets TANF, the parent or relative must agree to:
Train for a job or look for work. …Not quit a job. Take parenting skills classes. Get vaccines for their child. Make sure their child is going to school.Most people ages 16 to 59 must follow work rules to get SNAP benefits. Work rules mean a person >> must look for a job or be in an approved work program <<. If the person has a job, they can’t quit without a good reason.
…
Whether it’s Medicaid, SNAP food benefits (formerly known as food stamps) or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families cash assistance, HHS is helping Texas families >>> get back on their feet. <<<So, do we have anyone left in this world that we can relate malchus to?!
Do Xi, Putin, Kim count?! The gevurah side?Maybe learning world history about Pharaohs and Ninve kings will give us an idea
Many rabonim are warning us that a friendly Esav is more dangerous to us than a non-friendly one. I wonder whether we just push our faults on him and essentially ask Hashem for prosecution, has vesholom … Maybe we should rather become mature enough to learn to deal with Esav… Yaakov was afraid of meeting him, no doubt, but he prepared and he dealt with the issue. He could have gone to the desert towards Mecca. And Esav’s head ended up @ Machpelah, and maybe did even better with the shidduch to Dinah … tzarich iyun.
Just bought a pomegranate at the price of esrog… Can I use it as such?
Thanx Brandon.