Always_Ask_Questions

> MRS. SEMINARY GIRL

I applaud her for continuing learning after marriage, but could you please take her out of the dating pool for the sake of sholom bayis?!

Let’s reverse this and take an opportunity to contemplate whether we ever fed the birds but annoyed people, or more generally did something what we thought is a groise mitzvah, while not being sensitive to others. R Avigdor Miller mentions walking early morning for slichos, slamming the door, reminding a nearby widow that her husband used to go… R Salanter – doing long divrei Torah preventing servants from having shabbos rest

okok, indeed, it is a fair question, as the husband needs to provide for the wife, she can claim that the place with unbearable sounds is unlivable, and he is indeed chayav to fix it. A simple, sad, way some towns did this – use chemicals to kill the bugs and then there will be no birds.

Seriously, try noise-canceling headphones. There are different types. See if they will help.

get rid of bird feeders or of crazy wife?

check, or test, whether ultrasound anti-mice devices work also on birds. Young kids are able to hear the ultrasound. (Malls sometimes put annoying sound to get rid of teenagers). So, depending on the wife’s age, might work on her also.

I am trying to understand R Heinemann’s position. Granted, it is an off-hand remark during a lecture, but he seems to be pretty confident in this. His two arguments are: (1) non-Jewish motivation is not tzedoka but self-interest (2) government is not baal tzedoka but uses taxes. Note that he is seemingly talking about getting tzedoka in general, not for learning.

First, Shulchan Aruch (YD 254-255) says it is osur to get tzedoka from non-Jews in public – unless he can be assisted by Jewish or private non-Jewish funds. Not sure whether SNAP etc are “public”. Is getting assistance public? maybe not, especially as there are now electronic cards rather than visible food stamps, for those who remember. Still, S’A does not hang to the word “tzedoka”. YD 255 is way more expansive – one should roll in pain (tzaar) rather than depend (itztarech) on human beings (briyut), this expression repeated twice. This does not seem to allow parsing motivation of givers, whether they are Jews, idol worshippers or bnei Noach, whether it is a private donor or law-based system. Not sure if even Yang’s $10K passes this.

YD 256 follows that saying that those who deceive “haam” will later need actual charity (lashon Rambam). Now, here the words are tzedoka and “am”, so we are talking about Jewish tzedoka. Would this mean to permit “getting around” rules for public assistance? Would need a reference for that. Also, several commentaries of YD 254 mention “hillul Hashem”, and it is no doubt that even rare cases of Jews accused or arrested lead to that.

To summarize, “there are those who allow”
1) non-Jewish assistance for those who need it and
2) getting community support for Torah learning (shevet Levi)

so even if you are meikil on both of these, you still need (3) to equate “those who need it” with “support of Torah learning”. Vaad position above asks for Jewish public to support learning, not the non-Jewish, or for non-religious community in Israel.

So, there are 3 difficult steps here, each requiring a lot of justifications and kulos. Would you eat hot dogs that have so many levels of kulos?

> But why is it your business?

Because it is our Torah (as an am haaretz said to R Yannai) and our community. And I want it to be better, like each of us. So, we can disagree what is the right direction, and it is ok, and we can discuss this here, but questioning motivation is just silly. You could spend this time in finding better arguments for your position.

I am still looking for an explanation why is it so magically important for a mass of people to be “full time” learners instead of “80% time learners” and be machmir according to Gemora and Rambam. And I am sure there are some who go this way and they should be fully supported by the community and not feel like a failure because they work.

> You don’t seem to worry about the purity of your heros who push college and higher education?

I am all for being careful with college. And I talk about that with my modern friends, and with kids. Most concerns are about behaviors and also indoctrination. I think most of us here agree on this so there is no raging debate.

Furthermore, if someone is studying engineering wrong, then he will become a mediocre engineer. As long as he does not design a bridge that will fall, he will have a poor career. When someone goes into learning a wrong way, he then becomes a teacher of your and mine kids.

Lakewood Bays Vaad quotes Rambam that support learners who are willingly supported by community.

We also learn from this that it is ok to rely on Rambam, even when he disagrees with Chazal. This contradicts some T’Ch here.

Of course, we know that there is another Rambam that, on the surface, contradicts the above. I am a little puzzled why the Bays Havaad skips it. They could probably explain the stira somehow.

Syag > You posted two megilas explaining that govt money is NOT tzedaka

Yes, I search and found support for your positions, as you did not bother to do it yourself. I’ll look further to analyze this.

Avira > Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn’t on the level of gedolei olam

Maybe he grew up in a different society than Chofetz Chaim with different attitudes and had different sensitivities? For one, it seems from the other story that R Ovadia did not have “another room” like Chofetz Chaim did… Another story that even in later years, R Ovadia lived in a small apartment and someone visiting him realized that the apartment does not have place of all seforim R Ovadia is quoting, so he apparently was quoting by heart.

More generally, Sefardim did not go thru haskala period and thus have more coherent communities without separating in bitter sub-groups, each trying to find faults with the other. So, a Sephardi Chacham can allow himself a moderate opinion without being called names. As the story quoted here before said “Hu Rav, Ani Chacham”.

In support of Syag’s position: I found R Moshe Heinemann in 2017 video on Tzedakah explaining that we do not get _tzedokah_ from goyim because tzedokah has a special zhus and we do not want to give it to others and would rather have it ourselves. At the same time, government support is NOT tzedokah: (1) they do not do it as chesed, but rather to prevent poor people from misbehaving, such as stealing, (2) government is not a baal chesed, they are taxing rich people, so they are not providers.

Syag, my sources are
– Gemora Kidushin about responsibilities of the father to teach kids (or sons?) Torah, jobs, business, and swimming;
– Gemora Bava Basra that discusses history of Jewish public education during BM2 that lists “fathers teaching sons” as the first way they tried, but did not work universally, as not all fathers were able to teach, so they searched for other ways, but there is nothing there about this approach being wrong per se.
– Rebbe Eliezer saying that teaching girls Torah is like teaching her foolishness (some more modern poskim limit hesitation to Gemorah), so I am being very careful about how girls learn and what their motivation is.

But back to “slackers” issue in Jewish context:
now much time would it take for a smart person to work to substitute for welfare benefits, let’s skip medicare. To earn $1,000 at $20/hour, you need 50 hours a month, or 1.5 work days per week. I think one can be a full-time learner and carry that big of a load.

Avram > they do expect people to report it as self-employed income if (minus expenses) you net more than $400 cash

it is $400, whether it is cash or not, and this is for reporting on schedule SE to compute self-employment tax. You still need to add any income to Schedule C for income tax. Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, and I use software to file, so may be wrong on the forms.

Are we consistent here? If you forbid Kol Isha on a recording or radio, then would you allow shofar blowing over the same media?

Ubi: Exactly right, see my first comment in this thread

So then why people here post exaggerated statements? Either they don’t know exactly themselves by parroting something they heard from others or they are viewing modern camp as reshayim to whom laws of lashon hara do not apply. I would think outright lying would be osur even then.

I wonder whether anonymity here relaxes moral norms, after all it is a public forum. For example, if someone posts terrorist calls, FBI could easily get personal info from internet provider, so maybe yu can sue in beis din for damages and do the same. I know these posts are legal by us law, so internet provider will not get involved,.but ywn would need to listen to beis din.. could a ploni almoni defend his privacy , an interesting case that could help strengthen halochos of lashon hara

Ps I don’t think anonymous posters can sue to protect their – anonymous – reputation as there are no damages, but when you address actual institutions, I don’t see why not. Maybe someone can argue the opposite

Even as RebE is calling for good disagreement, I can’t find what to disagree with!

My impression from posters here was that some club exist there for some time. But the letter posted above days that it is in litigation and doesn’t exist. Maybe difference is between grad school and undergrad yeshiva. It would help if people explain the facts before doing general statements.

Right, as when R Yohanan was missing Resh Lakish as hevrusa and rejected another one who was not asking kashiyos but just confirming what R Yohanan was saying.

If I am not mistaking him for someone, R Ovadia used to have erva issues when he & family lived in Mitzraim in one room. His wife would nurse under the table or something, so that not to interrupt his learning.

Rebe> to learn from your students you must teach them

isn’t it peshita? They are called “your students” because you teach them!?

Jackk,
so this seems to be a case of low self-esteem. You expect that others do not respect your opinions and, thus, you can post nonsense. You would do better by treating your words with more self-respect.

I do see that average Biden approval grew rapidly in the last month from the bottom 37% back to 42% that he had back in Nov 2021. Seems that student loan giveaway bought some votes. There are 2 more months, so need $2T more to give away.

This thread reminds me of several blind wise men describing an elephant. It seems that most people here, including me, never studied there or know many who did. so, discussion is based on news items or on rumors what gedolim said/thought about it. Maybe, someone can find an actual YU-er and interview him/her?

I can easily see, and some people here mention this also, that the answer may depend on who we are talking about. Maybe R Kotler’s students do not need YU, some others might need Landers. But possibly those who go to modern day schools and public schools are already trained enough to survive that. I know of one family where kids went to a modern school and when they planned to go to YU, their classmates looked down at them as they all were going to Ivies.

according to Marvin Schick, 2012 blog>
As I was standing outside the home of Rav Shneuer Kotler during shiva on a brutally hot early July night in Lakewood, a car pulled up and two men got out. They opened the back door and virtually carried Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik into the house. He was extremely frail and in declining health. I went inside and heard him say to Rav Malkiel Kotler, “I was a friend of your grandfather, I was a friend of your father and, im yirtzeh Hashem, I will be your friend.”
…
It is known that Rav Aharon did not have a favorable view of Yeshiva University. I was told that in his 1930s fundraising trip here, he gave shiurim at Yeshiva and was not happy about what he saw.
…
shortly after the Second World War a serious effort was made by officials at Torah Vodaath and Chaim Berlin to establish a joint university-level academic program that would take place in a yeshiva setting, the intent being to deter their students from attending Brooklyn College in the evening after the mandatory two sedarim in the Beth Medrash. When Rav Aharon heard of this initiative, he immediately instructed that it be abandoned and it was abandoned.

During the fervid 1953 battle over the draft of girls into military service in Israel, Rav Aharon reached out to Rav Soloveitchik, hoping that he would come out publicly against Ben-Gurion’s decree. There was a meeting at Rav Mendel Zaks’ apartment in Manhattan. Rabbi Dov Ber Weinberger drove Rav Aharon to the meeting and he was witness to what happened. …
After more than a half hour of futile effort to get Rav Soloveitchik to publicly oppose gius banos, Rav Aharon came up with the following brilliancy, of course in Yiddish. He said, Bostoner Rav, imagine that instead of the three of us discussing this issue, there were another three who were judging the appropriateness of drafting girls into military service. Instead of the Bostoner Rav, there was your zeyde, Reb Chaim. Instead of the Radiner Rosh Yeshiva, there was your father-in-law, the Chafetz Chaim. Instead of me, there was my father-in-law, Rav Iser Zalman Meltzer. Bostoner Rav, what would your zeyde have said? This masterstroke did not result in a shift in Rav Soloveitchik’s position. He got up and said that he had to leave, “Kletsker Rosh Yeshiva and Radiner Rosh Yeshiva, a gutten tag” and left.

in 1954 or 1955, Rav Aharon reached out again to him and enlisted him in efforts to raise funds for Chinuch Atzmai. The high point came at the first Chinuch Atzmai dinner where Rav Soloveitchik made the most remarkable speech I have ever heard. After explaining why though he is a Mizrachist he is helping Chinuch Atzmai, Rav Soloveitchik spoke warmly about Stephen Klein, Chinuch Atzmai’s chairman and the president of Barton’s Candy. He then lavished praise on Rav Aharon, comparing him in elaborate language, first to the Vilna Gaon, then to Rav Akiva Eger and finally to his zeide, Rav Chaim. I was standing directly behind Rav Aharon as Rav Soloveitchik spoke and as each of these comparisons were made, Rav Aharon tugged at Rav Soloveitchik’s jacket with one hand and implored him to stop and with the other hand he pounded on the table and intoned repeatedly, “Das iz nisht emes, das iz nisht emes.” As I looked more closely at Rav Aharon, I saw that he was crying.

I was just a curious observer of this discussion. That President was not liberal and the speaker was close enough to a Nazi – Farrakhan. I am not trying to argue this or that position, just pointing out that there are different approaches here from the American perspective.

As to Landers college, I think it is great that we are having more different learning institutions. Jewish tradition is to have teachers competing for students.

But please stop counting which school has more Torah learning, this is just unseemly in general, and especially in current circumstances. We have 4 mln American Jews on the way to total assimilation. If some of them can find a place where they can learn according to their level, B’H.

Avram> So this is another example of illegal activity,
> What we are debating is the idea of taking benefits that one is legally entitled to, but you feel is avoidable

good, so we have a lot we agree on. I presume you include all cases where someone works for cash, etc. As you see from the shaila I posted, not everyone is cler on this. In the related discussion, I saw someone mentioning that apparently IRS would not take Israeli yeshiva letter as a proof of income in Israel, but would take from any other business. Apparently, this is based on their experience ..

But let’s analyze the remaining disagreements. Here are some examples, let me know what you think:

1) cases where legal requirements are light and avoidable. I think this would be when recipient of aid is required/expected to look for a job. I don’t know whether they ask, but it might be possible to show 5 letters you mailed last week to satisfy inspectors. I don’t think one needs a BA to get a job, I am sure anyone capable of learning a blatt of gemora can do some productive job.

2) where legal requirements are complicated and rarely enforced. This is what Trump’s accountant just pleaded to – T was “donating” money to his einekle school in lieu of tuition, if I understand it correctly. Another would be when school does not pay salary and teachers do not pay tuition. Not saying it is wrong, but it is not clear for a layman whether this is ok also.

3) where there are no legal requirements, like recent food giveaways. I don’t really know what other benefits are given that do not expect people to look for a job.

in my views, somewhere down the list, it may be OK to take, especially if you have a halachic authority that overrides the references I gave above (nobody brought those to the contrary so far, I’d love to see those), but surely a baal middos should avoid all. Again, presuming he is not actually in need.