Always_Ask_Questions

RebE > Chasam Sofer was asked, is it permitted for women to sing in a shul to honor the King

I just read a story in a kosher source about, I think, Austro-Hungarian Queen not King (was there such a thing?) being honored by Jewish girl dancing and a discussion between a general and a Rav who were present. Maybe Chasam Sofer was not the only posek.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH STRONG OPINIONS THAT BEINGS “ON THE DOLE”
> People” meaning you? And we don’t live our lives based on omigosh what will the gentiles think

I do mean Americans. Several acharonim on YD mention hillul Hashem, this seem to take into account what they think. It may be an interesting discussion when we do or not take into account. A famous answer to some European monarch why Jews do not follow majority (of all people) is “only when there is a sofek”.

As to this question, I checked the polls, it seems that about half of Americans are skeptical of public
of public assitance. So, even as overall legal system is a compromise between two sides, there is a large minority that will see unjustifiable use of public assistance as shameful. So do we follow the law as is or do we keep in mind that maybe 4 out of 10 people will see this as Hillul Hashem… When same R Henneman warned people skirting quarantine laws by joining several yards to make a minyan – that someone will not give a ventilator to a Jew in the hospital – he surely did not mean that majority of people will behave this way, just some of them.

I was told by someone who was teaching at a modern school, that showing impressive videos of drug abuse did not improve morale but dramatically increased knowledge level of the those students who were not aware before that.

I would suggest modeling positive internet usage before the kids get to their own. They should see you using a big-screen computer in an open space with your screen visible to others; using it to find information, work, access Jewish learning resources. Then, let them help you.

ready > How can the woman sleep at night knowing that the feeder is upsetting her neighbor?

that’s the right question!

Gadol > Alternatively, take an Ambien

This is by goyishe law. In Jewish law, as ready says, a person needs to make sure that his action is not bothering someone. See Bava Basra – making sure the bird is beyond 50 amot from the nearest house before taking it; a person with the higher roof needs to build a fence …

Avram > I believe the government money being discussed in Israel referred to funding for schools.

yes, and the argument seems to apply more generally.

> if they went away, things would become much more challenging, but iyH the “system” wouldn’t collapse.

I don’t know what the numbers are, but your argument fits what R Shach is saying in terms of “partially relying”.

Avram > [ THAT IS NOT IN THE TIMES OR PLACES WHERE WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR SOCIETY FROM SHMAD AND SUCH]”
That is certainly this time and place.

So, maybe this is where the real disagreement lies. Here is my naive view of current Jewish demographics in US:
2/3 are non-observant and assimilated and quickly losing any connection to Yiddishkeit and have a slight chance of being rescued by Chabad on campus or a birthright trip…
remaining consist of
– MO that grows moderately while losing some on the left side to assimilation into liberalism/OO, etc
– non-MO that grows fast, with some moving closer to MO when going to work/college.

so, this last group does not experience much assimilation, unless you count any shift towards work as a first step in sliding down. I don’t think it is. People with now 3 generations of yeshiva education are not marrying shiksas if they enroll in Columbia. At worst, they get some modernishe religious views. The worst of that is also preventable, as people here referred to Landers as an alternative to YU; and to Baltimore.

Avram > We’re not discussing relying on people, but on government programs that the citizens pay into with their taxes. You should avoid utilizing public roads,

Right, this might be a reasonable position (Obama used it against Romney – “you did not build that, we did”). Maybe this is what R Henneman means when saying “they dont do it for tzdokah”.
a) are there sources making this argument explicitly?
b) what would be included in Sh’A definition beyond “tzedokah”
c) would the resolution depend on time and place? There are people with strong opinions that beings “on the dole” while able to work is shameful and there are those who want to make everyone comfortable … I guess, state laws will reflect majority attitude and you need to read those carefully. So, halocha for TX and CA will be different.

Avram > You are coming from a starting point that does not seem to be Torah based, in fact acknowledged with, “[m]aybe I am biased by Republican thinking.”

This is an important point. I understand your feelings but not your logic. It just seems that certain cultural and historical trends became so entrenched that there is internalization that this is the only Torah and defensive reaction to that. It is a reasonable reaction, and we had similar reactions in history. For example, we found ways to distance from religions that use our books…

It _seems_ to me that the community went too much in this direction, well past the time of danger we were protecting from. And that is why I am pondering this. I am not 100% sure that this is right. That is, if I were a Lakewood parnas, I would not start introducing math classes into BMG, but I would go discuss this and maybe do experiments. And as it unfortunately happens in online forums, discussing a position unfortunately leads to making and taking shots. I am trying to be impartial, but maybe I failed, To clarify, I am not claiming any facts, for example, that kollel members collect welfare. I am just saying that – as a matter of Jewish attitude – they should not. If someone says to me that they usually don’t, I’ll be happy to hear that.

Syag, as an OT, what issues do you see with pepole overusing computers?

syag > glimmers of potential developmental damage

I agree with that, but one should also look at developmental advantages. It is still an open question which one prevails, and depends on how family handle devices and life in general. I am all for careful approach to new things, but I am sure people complained that because of the evil cars, people will forget how to feed horses, and phones will stop people from writing letters, etc.

On the damage side, there are approaches to manage – have devices in public room, defined time access, etc. On the advantage: if kids see parents using devices responsibly: for work, comms, learning, YWN :), you can expect them to do the same eventually.

In my humble experience, trying to fight inappropriate behaviors with early teens is a losing battle – smart kids can break through any filters you can create and they have more time on their hands than I do … But once they started using everything constructively, things turned. No need to teach kids chores – I can just ask them to google how to use the vacuum.

Avira,
in US, you can say a brocha on the President or a Governor, probably bli shem.

what is interesting to contemplate – during American revolution, UK was the biggest enemy, now US and UK (and other former British subjects) are closest partners. Sometimes, people fight those who are closest to them … We can learn from that.

Apparently 20% of 3rd candidate (R) did not mark up anyone as ranked choice, presumably some because they did not like Palin, and some because they did not get how this works.

Also, were the other R finished second, he would have been more likely to beat the D due to less empty protest votes.

Australians point out that their system is slightly different:
– you have to have a 2nd choice. Not sure this will be popular in US where you don’t force people to vote even for the first choice!
– only one candidate per party is allowed into the finals. This will help for some time, until parties subdivide.

My suggestion: to use candidate agreements instead of voter rankings, the way Israelis divide partial knesset seats. That is, candidate themselves decide who is most similar to them and gives them the votes he “earned”.

RebE > The culture has changed so going to college currently became more dangerous than when going in my time but there is also Touro and online education available.

Right. To “more dangerous”, I think the danger reached a peak maybe 20-30 years ago with some decline lately, as you are saying – with increasing college option that do not focus on “college experience”. College went thru same transformation as air travel: people used to put on their “shabbos clothes” so to speak going to the plane, now they dress like they are in their bedroom.

when evaluating dangers, one should look at the recent experiences in similar circumstances: kids coming from same community and school; same type of college – local/campus, off/online, Ivy/technical/Jewish, technical v. humanity major, etc. Results seem to vary a lot based on these factors.

ujm, thanks for the (self) reference.
I am looking again at the reference to YD without even mentioning Shach there. I am very perturbed when someone quotes sources “from his side”. Especially when trying to defend Torah learning. This is self-defeating.

R Moshe’s psak there is the most relevant in terms of time period. But look at his argument – you do not need college education for parnosa if you don’t want Cadillac. This was true at his time – when I think 10% of men went to college and even less of women. This is different now. Majority goes to college (obviously it is not same level as it was then) – and thus to live like an average person, you may need college. But this is off-topic as we are discussing learning non-Jewish subjects per se, not for parnosa.

DY,
this is well beyond Rambam, both in opinions and in issues, see above. I am not sure why is everyone so emotional here .. So many poskim discuss the issue, suddenly I am a hater by trying to get some clarity.

As you see, I was trying to find sources supporting the position opposite to mine. There seems to be 3 hoops you need to jump thru:
1) learn by taking someone else’s money. You say, we are not machmir like Rambam, Shoin, be meikel. Even as Lakewood Vaad tries to use Rambam. But this is just 1 step

2) Can we use non-Jewish public assistance in general.
You guys are saying that public assistance is not tzedoka. And this off-hand remark by R Henneman says same. My difficulty with this is that even accepting R Henneman idea, YD has a more general statement about not relying on people. Here I am more curious about halachic process rather than the end result. It seems like a reasonable sevora that as we live in the state that provides equal access to these services to everyone and we pay equal taxes, we should be able to use those services.

3) and this is my biggest difficulty – can we use those public sources for poor in order to support learning.

Approach may depend on how we explain the issue (2) above and whether this explanation
extends to allowing using these funds for extra things. From my naive sevorah in (2), this does not look good – society dedicated funds to help poor people (or by R Henneman, took money from other people), and we are using it for a different reason. Maybe I am biased by Republican thinking (see Gingrich welfare reform), and Dems look at public assistance differently. I was told here that some public assistance does not require looking for work, for example. Possibly some does not, like medicaid and family-based assistance. I checked SNAP in a couple of states and it seems to require actually looking for work. Maybe we can say that non-Jews ignore their laws & regulations in practice and case workers are happily giving cash to everyone, and we can just follow their practice. I am not sure why I am trying to guess through this process. I am hoping that those who go for it, have asked shailohs and can explain how this is supported halachikally. And why being machmir in such issue is not preferable when possible. [ that is not in the times or places where we need to protect our society from shmad and such]

Maybe let’s go to basics – Hashem created the World and gave us Torah. It is accepted that there are two ways to appreciate Hashem – thru learning the secrets of the World and learning Torah. Some, not all, discussions of “Maase Bereshis” and related subjects seem to even include science secrets into Torah secrets.

And seemingly accepted answer is that while it is respectable for humanity to learn appreciate the World; for Jews, learning Torah has a direct access to Hashem’s knowledge, superior to the science approach. Not fully dismissing it though. That is why R Twersky recommends learning physiology to appreciate complexity and beauty of Creation – but not as a yeshiva seder, by yourself at night (this is probably what Rema means).

Now, a hard question – science (including social) has greatly improved from the time of Gemora and Rishonim, and not just summary of achievements but methodology. Say, Gemora in Ketubos 60 discusses how food affects baby development. We now can do medical experiments, statistical observations, double-blinded experiments to study such problems. Were Abaye and Rava to live in our times – would you think they’ll take new knowledge into account? I don’t know whether they’ll go enroll in a nutrition degree, or talk to a nutritionist, or read papers, or conduct their own experiments, but I can’t imagine them not taking this knowledge into account. So, why we do not have modern Abayes and Ravas writing recommendations to chatanim and kallot on what to eat?

People elected Trump to do things over politicians did not dare, and he did not disappoint.

Nobody elected Biden for his bold vision. He was elected, as it says, for promising unifying and calm. I don’t think he lied. Probably the power went to his head, together with people around him (that he selected).

Avira, there is a psychological phenomenon that hinders your learning. It is called “crystallization” – if you get two pieces of information with a time lag, people usually absorb the first one and somewhat discount the second, see (Noble winner) Kahneman , Tversky. Same in Choshen Mishpat – you have to have both litigants in front you before listening to them.

You probably started learning the sugya not going from Sh’A, but by learning Birkas Shmuel with his strong opinion. After that, you are either explaining away others (starting with Shach) or declaring them apikoirosim. It is tiring to go point by point and review them all – why kabalah mentioned by Shach is there for a different reason than math and 100 of other of your tirutzim.

You would be better off learning a sugya by looking at all rishonim and opinions that you disagree with before trying to explain them away.

Avira, thanks for the ref. to YD. How do you understand Shach there? He appears to interpret the chochma as studying esoteric subjects, including Kabbalah as opposed to, or before, halakha.

A couple of notes comparing with modern “chochma”:

1) By Rashba, it would be OK to study anything not avoda zora as long as it is not a fixed occupation. I would say, someone who has enough money to live and then makes studying Chinese philosophy his daily routine after shacharis would qualify. But would you say that taking a semester class is not temporary?

2) Often, one can gain indirect understanding of Torah and ability to argue for it from studying surrounding materials. I think R Ovadia Yosef explains Rambam this way – that all philosophy that Rambam learned was for the glory of Torah. Take an example of someone who works in academic environment and meets western-education public. He needs to know a lot not just to protect himself from their argument but also to explain them Jewish positions.

3) A lot of current “education” is really job training. 99% of professors are not aware of Aristotle, unless this is their direct line of work. The liberal stuff that is being injected in every subject is not “chochma”. Propaganda may be more dangerous than chochma, but off topic for this thread, I think.

I am not wondering how ranked choice works, I am wondering how it affects politics.

Democracy is shaped up by the election rules. American system generally pushes people towards broad coalitions and more moderate candidates, with additional debates within the parties. Israeli system allows 120 members from 30 different parties, allowing for multiple coalition perturbations depending on the issue of the day. It may be that different systems suit different people, or times, better. You just can’t divide Israelis into two camps. Some may be right-wing on religion but socialist on welfare. Others are left-wing on religion but right-wing on arabs, etc.

So, if this ranking will change who gets elected, I am for caution.

Avira, what exactly are you referring to in YD 246?

Any professional job requires further education while yo are working. Whether you are a teacher, a lawyer, a software developer. Often, you need it to just keep up with recent developments. During Rema times, some would just read Galen (and, according to a story, Vilna Gaon rejected an eye doctor like that). In our time, there is so much new, and also you will want to check your own experience against knowledge of others.

Some can do it on their own, others go take classes. Just make sure, you are not wasting money and time and that you are doing your job honestly, that is to the best of your abilities. Not my words. I once attended a talk from a Rov, who also worked as a professional. Students asked him all kind of questions that they could not ask “learning Rovs” – how do you keep kashrus, take off yomim tovim, etc. He started with “before I answer your questions, I want you to know the first halakha – you owe 8 honest hours of work to your employer”. (this includes halochos like you can not take a night job if you will be tired at your main job).

> I understand zivug sheni as the second marriage not missed marriage

RebE, I agree with the rest. I think at least Meiri understands this as early marriage until ~ 20, after that, you may get “what you deserve”. I recall a discussion of possibly missing a zevug. Maybe if you are less than 20, you do not have much time to miss it: your parents find it for you, and, unless it is a gross error that is obvious, most likely they do it right. After all, parents get a siyata d’shmeya naming their children – how many people complain that their name does not fit them? not many. Ok, you have a second name just in case. So, maybe parents get a similar help min hashamayim when doing a shicuh?! just a sevorah, I don’t have no sources.

Amil > Alaska voted for ranked choice voting.

Indeed. I don’t think that most voters (me included) understand how such voting will change elections. It is not that simple, as it will change how candidate position themselves, where money goes, etc. And, of course, after you change and something goes wrong, it will be hard to change back.

So, we should watch carefully the small number of places that use the new system and see whether it will affect voting system to the worst, such as enabling more radical candidates through. I am very much a Perotist following “if it aint broken, do not fix it”. Some may not like certain US policies, but American electoral system is probable the most stable among modern democracies, maybe second to UK that was not pure democracy for a long time though.

if you insist – the first one was “gadol” as he was involved in billions of dollars of questionable transactions. The second could actually be a gadol if he knowingly risked his life to protest. It is also possible that he made that statement trying to save his company from sanctions, but had crossed some other criminals. So, he is sofek gadol.