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Do you know how much effort it takes for me to get ready for a date? For a guy, yes, you do have to rent a car and figure out where to go; I’m not minimizing the difficulty of that. But for a me, my family has to clean up the house, my father needs to miss a good part of his nightly shiur, I need to do my hair and makeup and spend 2-3+ hours of my night.
That’s not a reason to say no, that’s a bias. You implied earlier (in a post commiserating with Flatbusher) that you don’t have as many opportunities to go out as you’d like. So when you do, don’t let the difficulty get in the way of giving it every possible chance.
If I did it once and there is no legitimate chance of the shidduch working out, what is the tachlis in going out a second time?
Agreed. I’m questioning someone’s ability to properly definitively assess that after one date.
I’ve seen more than one occasion where that assessment turned out to be wrong.
I didn’t grow up in a kollel home. I still feel like I grew up in a Torah home nonetheless.
Definitely not a stirah.
I agree that you can’t compare someone who completely made the choice to learn in kollel on his own to someone who just went with the “system”, but the “system” has raised the bar tremendously as far as level of frumkeit and commitment to learning, even if not full time in kollel, so don’t dismiss it.
Yes, to a degree, we are victims of our own success, but high expectations are not necessarily a bad thing.
As long as you want to marry someone committed to a Torah home, I respect your choice and right to make it, but I will point out that there’s a difference between whether someone doesn’t want to learn in kollel (and BTW, I don’t mean necessarily a formal kollel, I just mean full time learning) and someone who finds that he can’t.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=83&hilite=
Pretty strongly against feminism, wouldn’t you say?
I’m sorry, I misremembered.
R’ Moshe says it’s not assur, but it’s ????? ????.
I am unfamiliar with that song (either version), and I’m not Mendy Wald’s posek. I will bl”n try to find you a mareh makom.
BTW (probably belatedly) hatzlochoh in your job and career.
It could be different at great cost of the family’s ruchniyus.
What you’re basically doing is downplaying the value of someone spending years learning.
If it were non-contextual, you might have a point.
Why cant you follow a conversation?
No
Is that a worse than two working spouses and a non Jewish baby sitter, like some non kollel people I know?
Took me a few minutes to get this thread.
That’s pretty bad considering you started it. Are you drunk?
No
Did he know you were going to bump this?
Technical20, you’re right, I have no idea how you actually act on a date, I was just responding to Goq’s humorous suggestion that the two of you met.
The part I was serious about is not giving someone a second date. You are seriously harming your chances to quickly meet the right one by feeling confident that you can be sure someone is not for you after one date.
Writersoul, I don’t think the heter meah rabbanim is overriding the cherem, it’s working within it. Using it the way you suggest would be overriding it, and that’s not what the heter meah rabbonim is for.
It would fail not as a test for whether these hundred rabbonim are against polygamy, rather that it’s not within their power to even decide.
Sure, I’m reading what you say. I agree that individual choice shouldn’t be suppressed. I also agree that the choice to learn in kollel can have negative long term financial repercussions (although it can also have long term positive spiritual repercussions which don’t change the finances but outweigh it).
Where I’m disagreeing with you is the implication that a major factor in the decision whether or not to learn in kollel (or in your case to marry someone who wants to) is sholom bayis. Yes, financial stress, whether it be difficulty paying bills, or feeling subject to the supporting parents’ wishes or beholden to them, is an inherently bad thing, and can cause sholom bayis issues, but the positive aspects of kollel life have tremendous benefits for sholom bayis. So, while it’s reasonable to say that someone deciding to learn in kollel is giving up something in financial security, or even in the feeling of self sufficiency, I don’t think a couple should feel they’re in any way giving up anything in sholom bayis for that decision.
To those who think the kollel system is unsustainable, I ask two questions:
1) How has it lasted until now and why do think that will change?
2) If you’re correct, should it change anyone’s life choices?
In theory. All things are not equal, though, and the phenomenon you imagine isn’t any worse for kollel families than others.
As for those who think the system is sustainable, well unless they are waiting for their inlaws and parents to kick off and leave a yerusha, where will they get the money to support their kids who want to sit and learn if they themselves are not making a living on their own?
The same way it’s lasted until now.
You can’t just separate the variables for any meaningful discussion, unless you can completely isolate the factors. Perhaps you could say about a total faker that he’ll have the stressor without the benefits, but it’s not true for the vast majority. You don’t have to be on the level of mesiras nefesh those from fifty years ago had.
Also, I don’t think heter meah rabbonim would work. The man needs to deposit a get in a bais din for her to take whenever she wants so I don’t think they’ll give a better for someone who wants to remain married.
Therefore?
Calling ubiquitin….
Personally I dont know the Reichmans fortune, but there will come a time where they just cannot support everyone else, no matter how much they have
There are many (and bigger) gvirim whose last name is not Reichmann.
If the economy falters, the kollel system will not disappear, or close to it. At worst it will be downsized, and not in numbers (due to population growth) but in percentage.
CTLAWYER, other professions have replaced the ones you speak of. Just because some options no longer exist doesn’t mean the only option is college. There are more doctors and lawyers not making big money than there are making big money, and there are still many who were not college educated who are.
Just now reading this thread, technical i think we must have dated because i have been on dates where the girl made up her mind right away and checked out mentally and just went through the motions the rest of the date.
I think she’s far from the only one to do that.
I think that by default, there should almost always be a second date (at least) because one can’t properly rule someone out after one, as much as some think they can.
The original melody for Maoz Tzur was originally a folk song, not a church song (otherwise it would have been assur al pi din).
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/maoz-tzur-tunes#post-422468
It is a very pretty tune. I don’t think a non frum person, even an apikores, is necessarily incapable of composing a beautiful, even Jewish sounding melody.
But why don’t older girls consider 10 or 20 years older than them?!?
:????? ??
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=14&daf=101b&format=pdf
??????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????
That’s why.
Interesting theory, but in practice, at least in my observation, kollel people don’t have any worse shalom bayis that working people.
I read otherwise.
Lethal beans.
Blue for blue milk, red for red milk.
LF, yes, for real.
CTLAWYER, unbelievable story. That shadchan should have been the one to hear the dial tone.
We’re well into the third generation, and it doesn’t seem to be getting any less prevalent. Aderaba.
Courses have opened to help kollel men learn skills for a career, and most kollel men are working by their mid thirties.
If the finances aren’t available, you’ll see people working a little younger, and more programs to give yungerleit marketable skills, but the kollel “system”, which has b”H produced thousands of high caliber b’nei Torah, is not going anywhere in the foreseeable future.
A conservative rabbi named Israel Goldfarb.
The system is unsustainable and those currently learning full time won’t have the funds to provide a similar lifestyle for the next generation.
The system is more than a generation old, and they said the same thing last generation. Also, even if it has to alternate generations, that’s still more than not having it at all.
Can we please all stop with the Hitler and Holocaust comparisons?
So Chicken for shabbos is covered, but Roast Beef for SHabbos isnt covered?
My wife says they both come out better when roasted open.
Gavra, yes, I remembered that I had once quoted that Ritv”a, but didn’t remember that we had the same exact argument – two years ago.
ZD, I didn’t say that. I said it depends on the individual.
2) It might not be reasonable for him, and more importantly, he shouldn’t come on to tzeddakah money for it.
3) No I didn’t.
In other words, if we’re supposed to be reasonable, what nafka mina does the gemara give us?
First of all, attitude. The people complaining about tuition are either assuming they’re not actually paying hotzo’os Talmud Torah, or not reflecting the attitude the gemara wants us to.
Second, we can, within reason, spend more than the bare minimum on mitzvos with the assurance that it will come back.
Obviously, each individual has to know what’s reasonable for his financial situation, and based on what he’s used to.
I believe I am saying the halachah correctly:
??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????
(??”? ??”? ??”? ?)
Thank you, will do. May Hashem send them a ????? ?????.
If a super wealthy person buys the wine, it is covered. That Gemara isn’t license to go crazy, but anything within reason is covered. My $7 bottle of wine (depending on my means) is covered, although I could use grape juice or Tokay.
Aseh Shabatcha chol is referring to someone receiving tzeddakah money, and I don’t think relevant to this discussion.
If the schools would install crystal chandeliers in the classrooms, it wouldn’t be covered, and if I send my kid in a chauffeured limousine it wouldn’t be covered, but that is not what’s happening.
RebYidd23, you hit the nail on the head.