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Ubiquitin, you agree with AZ that what changed is that the average age of boys getting married has gone up?
Though I wouldn’t consider a 12% gender discrepancy anything remotely resembling reality)
For birth rates? Of course not. For numbers entering shidduchim? It’s probably in the ballpark.
It seems you missed AZ’s post, in which he claims that 1) and 2) are both true. That my hunch as well; Dr. Halpert assumes that the gap is wider than in the past, but I didn’t notice if he addresses population.
I keep on evading your hypothetical question because it denies a mathematical truism. If I told you that 2+2 does not equal 4, would you consider that it equals 5? That’s kind of how I view your question.
Could changes in the way we date improve the shidduch system? That’s a better question, and I think the answer is yes. If people would make better choices, there would be more marriages; the imbalance doesn’t explain the single older men. But making better choices (not age related) can’t address the imbalance of having more females in shidduchim than males.
/stupidreferencetodifferentthread
🙂
You become a kofer, IMHO, when you believe so much in the shidduch crisis that you lose any hope of finding a shidduch and forget that it’s actually in the hands of Someone higher than statistics.
Yes, I think that would violate #1.
WIY, all the talk about overbearing mothers, obsession with appearances, etc., doesn’t change the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” that there’s an imbalance. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, even without observing an imbalance, if you at least acknowledge a typical several year gap between the age if the chassanim and kanllahs, and large average family size, an imbalance is almost inevitable. This is not likely your crisis, but it’s an important issue for the non – chassidic community as a whole.
1) I’m not hung up on it, it was an aside. I have issues with the way some people act in shidduchim (as well as in other pursuits). Not everyone lives throw lives in every aspect according to Orchos Tzaddikim. I think if girls were in the driver’s seat, we’d have problems the other way. Evening the playing field would be a positive even aside from getting more girls married. I stilk think that evenly distributing dates (how would that be done?) would merely be treating a symptom.
2) If there were, say, 12% more boys born than girls (currently it’s about 4%), the numbers would be roughly even. If hypothetically, I were presented as fact your three assertions, I would sooner assume that there were, 20 years ago, 12% more boys than girls born, than assume that the laws if math were suspended. Either way, I wouldn’t close my eyes to the current reality.
1) Probably a combination. My anecdotal observation is that there are more upper 30’s single women than men, so if you’re referring to shidduchim from 15 – 20 years ago, I lean towards saying that the main “difference” is the problem being noticed. I have been aware of the age gap cause, IIRC, for at least 12 years (before I ever heard of NASI). As an aside, my recollection matches AZ’s that shidduchim were first suggested to the boys in those days as well.
2) I would scratch my head and wonder if HKB’H had made a nes, perhaps in the form of a higher male birth rate than in the general population.
All of your incorrect lowercase letters are to compensate for their incorrect uppercase “A”?
Don’t see things the same way?
ShalomToYou, really? A koifer for believing it? You’ve just called a lot of big people koifrim (also me).
Can you please show me where it says that age gap + population growth ? gender imbalance is one of the ikrei emunah?
WIY, you said you’re a koifer. Please explain.
Ubi, you CAN’T know, because unless some other factor balances the numbers, we’re in trouble. If there are a lot more girls than boys, there MUST be girls left over.
Obviously, your set of facts, that there were 1) a gap 2) large families (population growth) and, 3) no surplus of girls, is wrong because it’s not mathematically correct.
Once you get the right set of facts, you might realize which is the cart and which is the horse.
DaMoshe, when was the last time you went through the sugya of bal tosif?
What’s a koifer
Literally, one who denies. It is usually used to denote one who denies an essential element of Jewish belief.
Apparently, WIY feels that those who don’t believe in the age gap/ population growth leading to a disparity in the number of eligible males and females are somehow being made to feel as if they are are heretics.
WIY, what exactly is it that you don’t believe?
Ubi, I’m confused. How could there be an imbalance in the numbers, yet all the girls got married? Evenly dating?
Mop, what justifies the freezer without an age gap?
Itch, they’re trying to act masculine.
It’s still a bit to the left. Approaching centrism.
I think most chassanim and kallahs brainstorm to find appropriate shidduchim between their friends anyhow (I know we did).
They’re here, just under different usernames.
doesn’t explain the DATING DISCREPENCY
It does.
why it hasn’t always existed
If the same demographics were in place, it would. I don’t know if the demographics were the same, and whether or not the disparity was the same, but I don’t think you do either, yet you want to prove something based on assumed facts.
WIY, M’komon Shel Z’vachim is, I believe, a Bobover nigun.
owch
DY
Actually the word sinai I pronounce see-nigh (nigh of the word night) not see-noi.
Not at the end of a passuk (but see my post above; I meant it b’derech b’dichusa).
Sorry, but that’s a very weak proof, if at all one
I agree. It’s still cute.
Apy,
the sentiment expressed by a majority of the girls who enrolled in the seminary where my wife works. In “our circles” a prerequisite to getting married is getting a “yes” from a boy. Many, many girls express the sentiment that they wait and wait for that elusive yes and when they do get one, it seems like he was dragged up from the bottom of a barrel
I didn’t put those words in your mouth.
AZ, I know math doesn’t support the idea of an age gap, large population growth, and no gender disparity, but I’m not old enough to remember which of those factors changed (although I suspect a combination).
What did change?
Ubiquitin, you made up the fact that the chassidim have a significant age gap.
Mammele, your description doesn’t make sense. If there are more quality girls than boys, than a quality boy would have the upper hand.
Anyhow, the more important question is the typical age differential.
Yismach Moyshe b’matnas chelkoy
Ki eved ne’emon koroso loy
K’lil tiferes b’royshoy nosato loy
B’omdoy l’fonecho al Har Sinoy
Or:
Yismach Mohshe b’matnas chelkoh
Ki eved ne’emon koroso loh
K’lil tiferes b’rohshoh nosato loh
B’omdoh l’fonecho al Har Sinoh
??
American sounding, in this case, “oh” rather than “oi”.
You keep on bringing up Chassidim, and history. You can’t make up facts and support your idea based on invented facts.
Regarding your “just wondering” question its mostly because the guy is the one who does the picking
… which is because…
Just because we guys have a silly hangup about sounding yeshivish, doesn’t mean girls should be taught improper havarah.
How can it be that a majority of girls don’t get dates? A majority get married, so I would assume they get dates.
Unless your wife works in B’nos Deshe.
I am curious as to what type of place one would be in for a Shabbos, that would have activated motion sensors functioning on Shabbos?
It happened to me in a hospital.
Sam, you may know too much about ED (and I sympathize), but you don’t know about this case.
where do all these boys go?
Why do you assume they’ve gone anywhere?
Goq, when criticizing someone’s spelling, you should probably consider using proper grammar.
There are more than enough dates for all 112 girls. ALL!!
… which is really beside the point because the purpose of dating is to get married, and the numbers (in the current system) don’t support all of them getting married.
You haven’t demonstrated in the least bit that I’m wrong. I’ve offered a rational, correct explanation for the uneven dating, and you simply “prove” that I’m wrong by observing that there is uneven dating.
Switch to Vos Iz Neias.
Yes, 42, you’re making very grave accusations.
Jbaldy, why and how is non-Jewish music less problematic regarding aveilus for the churban?
Nitpicker’s right. Let it refer to elohay as in elohay neichor.
Sam, it’s pikuach nefesh, but you’re assuming that telling the mother is the solution, but that’s just a guess; from here, we really don’t know.
Apushatayid,
There are strange girls also. Many (certainly not all) of the boys “left over” are not married for very good reasons. It’s not nearly as often for the girls, who have the numbers stacked against them.
Ubiquitin, the kashas are more difficult when you ignore the teirutzim.
I’m still waiting (not holding my breath) for an explanation of how 112 girls can marry 100 boys as long as they date evenly.
Will it be located in Wilkes-Barre (near Cong. Mei Menuchos)?
The most repeated line is “there are not enough GOOD GUYS available to date
There will always be guys to date, they might just be strange.
nobody has attempted to explain why 2 is incorrect
That’s not true (either). Anyhow, it’s what we call “a kasha oif a maaseh).
Seems to me that his point was that since it’s pronounced differently, it’s not the same.
BTW, there are two differences; the initial vowel sound, and the placement of the “H” sound.
Ubiquitin, no and no.
The numbers haven’t resolved themselves in the past, unless by a miracle. You still haven’t explained (and I don’t blame you, it’s impossible) how all girls can get married when there are more of them than boys (in shidduchim). Perforce, either your assumption that the numbers were always lopsided is incorrect, or your assumption that there were never a lot of older single girls is incorrect.
The analogy of musical chairs is indeed flawed, but conceptually it’s correct. The differences are: in musical chairs, when the music stops, all chairs are taken. In shidduchim, the music never really stops, and all chairs are not taken. This means that for the individual, there’s always hope. But on a broader level, you still can’t fit 112 bodies into 110 chairs.
Another difference is that although more chairs and players are constantly being added, there are more players being added than chairs, so the disparity becomes exacerbated, not improved (in numbers, not necessarily in percentages).
You also keep mixing cause and effect. If the numbers were even, boys would likely be less choosy. The reason they keep their “silly criteria” is because they can. The anecdotal evidence for this is compelling; we see time and again that boys who have “something against them” (overweight, dysfunctional family, BT, previous engagement or divorce, previous frumkeit struggles, etc.) are willing to, and do, “settle” for girls with similar “silly criteria”. Why? Simple – supply and demand. The same laws of supply and demand would reduce the requirements to consider (go out with) a girl, and would even out the dating.