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I don’t think you can rely on the internet, for example fish is pareve, but you can’t eat it with meat, much less cook them together. Also it would be very hard to make your kitchen kosher without asking for help. However, many people would be happy to help you for free.
For the time being, perhaps you could tell us what you ordinarily eat, and may be we can give some advice.
Most food of vegetable origin is intrinsically kosher, but it is important to make sure it is free of insect and parasites.
To Aurora77: If you are planning to own other pets in the future, and you would like them to have that surgery, you have to ask a question, with all the details. You can no doubt ask it from Rabbi Amar and in the same letter, you can also ask for clarification of his previous rulings. You can also discuss the alternate procedures that were mentioned, which involve removing blood supply and thus have organs atrophize: it is my understanding they are intended for use in the very specific situations I outlined, in order to minimize violation in those cases in which it’s permissible to do. But of course I am no rabbi and I would never presume to teach. On the other hand I can tell, because I have seen people do it, that cats and dogs, and other animals which are kept for utility (bulls, horses, etc) or as pets, can have a long, healthy and happy life without being subjected to the surgery.
To The Chassidishe Gatesheader: I am sorry, I did not write the Torah. And the reason I would never willingly help in neutering or spaying pets is not that I find it cruel, it is that it’s forbidden. Moreover, I was taught we ask a question from our Rabbi and then we do what he tells us. I am willing to believe that’s exactly what you did, and that you were told you are allowed to spay and neuter all your cats, both males and females. But this does not completely help, because that’s not how I was taught. So, when I see a sick or wounded stray cat and I know I have the option, say, of making a phone call, you bet I won’t be calling anyone. I could tell stories about how a chiloni veterinarian agreed to something (and money was paid to secure that), then some person talked the vet into doing the surgery without notifying anyone, using a load of lies about it being permissible and a kindness to animals. I wonder if you would have an excuse for that, or if you find it as repulsive as I do.
Thank you all for the suggestions and kind words. Also thank to Aurora for the very interesting article.
I have heard about answers which permit in some cases to remove reproductive organs from animals (having nonjews do it), but, correct me if I am wrong, this was done under two conditions:
– the animal had a disease which would cause it to suffer and die, were the surgery not performed
– the animal’s owner would suffer great distress and/or financial loss
But those leniencies are not applicable generically. Most animals are not neutered because they have an ovarian or testicular cancer, but because their owners would like to. Most animals in a shelter don’t even have an owner, the shelter has taken animals which were either in the streets or whose owners wanted to get rid of them for whatever reasons (I am not discussing legitimate reasons vs superficial reasons, just the fact that owners no longer want to keep them).
There is no obligation to allow animals to reproduce, we may avoid it by keeping it apart from other animals or via hormonal treatment, but it’s not so straightforward. These pets, even when alone, make noise at night and disturb their owners, who might eventually bring them in for surgery. And the hormonal treatments, which I have paid for and taken care of it via sympathetic veterinarians writing the prescription, means that people are harassed and told they are causing disease to the animals (?! human females take the pill too…), while the surgery would “magically” eliminate diseases and give long life (yeah I know it’s pocket lining, but that’s what they are told – sometimes in public and in front of their children or other people). It’s a problem when someone who cares for a pet is insulted like that, because most will give in, or alternatively, get rid of the pet by letting it out in the streets. Those few who don’t, I am sorry to say, will one day find out that surgery had been done.
Perhaps people like you should consider setting up an animal shelter and clinic, one that does not spay or neuter under any circumstances (it should not accept animals with the sort of diseases I mentioned before: these cases are very rare, let the owners ask their posek). Or at least, flood with letters the shelter you donate to or where you volunteer. If it’s possible to set up a no-kill shelter, then no doubt it’s possible to set up one which respect our beliefs. It would also provide a living for people who would like to become veterinarians or veterinary technical/sanitary assistants and who would be excellent professionals, but in the current system, can not. The very existence of people like that, out in the open, would mean a lot and make a lot of difference.
Dear Aurora
first of all, thank you for sharing your amazing story, and I wish you a lot of success and happiness.
Please be aware there is no prohibition to own an animal who has been neutered or spayed. I am sure you would never had done that, had you been aware of the prohibition and had the animal been yours. You have nothing to regret.
On the other hand, according to most authorities, the prohibition also applies to nonjews, and so, we can’t give the cat to the nonjew and have the nonjew do the surgery for us, and we can’t even ignore the issue in the case we have no interest in taking back the dog or cat and the nonjew will keep it and we never see it again. This is one part of the problem, but – fair enough, one could find people who will not do. Most jews including chilonim are disgusted by the very idea, also there are nonjews (namely hindus) who have similar prohibitions and will not do. But then the second part of the problem kicks in: in western countries, veterinarians do not think this is appropriate, and will basically force upon the person, or even do it without their knowledge at the first opportunity and charge it to some or some other “animal welfare charity”. The only legal recourse is if the animal is a purebred, then one may warn, beforehand, that should it be spayed or neutered against our wishes, we’ll prosecute to the full extent of the law. But if the animal is no purebred, the law does not protect us in most countries and states.
Many shelters require spaying or neutering as a condition for adopting a pet: they have no problem with it remaining caged, and not even with killing it, but giving it to a loving owner who will not do – they don’t even want to hear about.
It is a crazy situation and we need people like you to speak up, of course it does not help that people like me complain, because I won’t adopt anyway. You have to know, Aurora, that many of us are not very attracted to pets, because we have families and can’t handle the extra workload (and who will wash the nonkosher dishes and where?), because we are overwhelmed with human beings and jews asking for help and we can’t help them all, let alone the animals, and also because we were raised in a different outlook from the mainstream western culture and many among us are not interested in pets. But the key point is that everyone’s rights and beliefs should be respected, which also will lead to better care for animals, because, as I said, so many times I would have phoned someone, or a shelter, or a veterinarian. Possibly I’d have even paid some money. I don’t, because the few times I did, it turned out a terrible disaster.
Let me tell you about the one time it worked out: the cat (female) was very old and had health troubles. Plenty of money had been spent on it previously. The owners were moving to another country, and brought with them another cat (its offspring) but this one did not comply with quarantine and import requirements. So the owners asked around, but could not find anyone, they cared very much for the cat (the very fact they spent lots of money on it, shows so) but they had no option, and in the end, arranged euthanasia. I am happy to say someone took the cat instead, and that it lived peacefully the rest of its life, and since the cat was old and sick, no one insisted with the new owners about sterilizing.
But unfortunately I could tell you very different stories, lots of those. In each one of these I did my best, and yet, it did not work.
I understand, but what to do? I don’t have the time or energy to take care of it. It is unfortunate but if I call anyone who is likely to want a cat in the house, regardless if jewish (probably non observant) or not, this person will right away, or shortly afterwards, have the animal sterilized, which is a very serious prohibition. Nothing works, it does not work have people sign this or that, it does not work giving them money, it does not even work giving the cat to, say, families who feel very strongly about it and who say will never do: they will eventually change their mind or be forced to. Believe me I tried. However, please advise, because if you have a feasible solution, I will do differently in the future, and of course I’ll talk to the rabbi, to my friends, and to whomever I have occasion to talk about the subject.
No words from any of the animal-friendly readers about feasible options? Sometimes I see cats who are obviously abandoned house pets and won’t survive in the streets, I’d be happy to make a phone call.
“I just want everyone in our community to know his name, what he looks like and what he’s done. He still seems to be cloaked in secrecy. XXXXXX swears he’s going to call every Rabbi and educator in Valley Village and warn them, and Rabbi XXXXXX not only gave his blessing but told him to do it as president of the shul. The odds seem to be pretty good that [the molester] will reoffend again some day, I’d like to think I’d done what I could to prevent it and without eating out my insides in the process.”
However he trusted the boy to be alone in some quiet and isolated place with a 6yr old. I am sure the girl’s family had good reasons for that, except we can’t guess them. Please post more information. The proper way to prevent is first of all making sure that our children are never put in a situation like that. Then, but only in second place, we have to warn our children. This can and should be done in a general manner: finger pointing is useless and counterproductive, because it gives false security.
Chayav misa? I suppose he was watched by two shomer shabbos adult male witnesses, fit to testimony, who warned him and he carried on, and that the abuse was a highly specific one and with certain specifications which we don’t detail because we either know it already, or the coffeeroom is not the place to learn such details. If not, then looks like it’s going to be a bit of a problem for those who accuse him of a capital crime.
And after all, we can’t impose penalties outside of Torah can we?
I have a question for TCG, I am ignorant of this subject as I never have had pets nor do I want any. You say you have three cats and you took them from the streets, so I assume you have males and females.
Am I the only one who does not think it is normal that jewish people have the chutzpah to utter words, and to their parents no less, such as “I can’t believe you LET me wear a long pony tail at that age, I look ridiculous!”?
What does your husband say? What does the rabbi say? The decision whether to call the police is not something to be asked from an internet board. For what is worth, I believe he will come home safe, later or tomorrow, and start again taking advantage of you, as long as you allow him, and I am afraid longer than that: now you (and he) have to fight against a habit. It has been weeks or months without him being held accountable for inadequate behaviour.
Dear Aries I may very well be off-base, however, I have not insulted or slandered anyone: I have asked a question. Are the minors staying voluntarily and can they leave at any time, or are they institutionalized? Are they free to behave as they please according to the “unconditional love” attitude which is demanded from WOW, or are there rules in place, and if so, what happens to those who defy them? Are the minors in charge of their parents who retain rights and obligations and who make any and all decisions during their guest stay, or are they charges of the residential community according to NY and federal secular law? I am not saying this or that option is a bad thing, nor am I denying that those services are necessary for some minors: they are, no different than hospitals and surgeries and chemoterapy are necessary and are tremendous mitzvot. However, it seems appropriate that we all should be aware of the sort of services being suggested; and whether these services are suitable to a particular boy is a legitimate question, if you don’t mind. Especially given that I had the impression WOW is not interested in having her young son admitted into such an institution. Which for what is worth, I fully support.
In addition, I find there is something dissonant about the TP supporters demanding from WOW she must be “accepting” of her son and any behaviour of his, and that she must express him unconditional love allowing him to leave the house whenever he pleases without even saying where he goes, to get up whenever he pleases, to wear whatever he pleases, to drink liquor and smoke cigarettes to his liking, and so on – and some have reprimanded WOW for having reacted in the obvious way to the stupid t-shirt – I would find it surprising if this advice is confirmed to come from people who are running a residential community, where I am not quite sure children are remotely allowed a shadow of that. But, of course, may be I am wrong, so please dispel our misconceptions. With facts, not with refusal to answer.
Finally, nobody can guarantee anything. We can’t even guarantee our lifespan. There is no magic solution: there are many educational approaches, some work for some children and other work for other children, and we have to teach each child according to their inclination. It is ironical and saddening that the very approach which supposedly accepts every kid no matter what they do – thus implying and leading us to believe it allows every child to be themselves and find their true path in life – treats them as xerox copies and treats their parents as fools whose insight is consistently dismissed and who are told to follow blindly and without asking questions a certain “easy and simple method”.
Hmmmmmm.
Avi Fishoff, according to Google, runs a “shelter” (the word comes up from Google and is not mine) for 15-21 years old, in Brooklyn.
Do those minors enter the institution voluntarily? If so, and given that the method appears to be difficult to implement correctly (I notice many posters are pointing out mistakes in what WOW does), perhaps the boy should be informed about this option and would be delighted to move there, to enjoy unconditional love and all the other benefits we’ve heard about and made us drool with envy at what our parents did not offer us (were they nasty? naive? fools?! or maybe they were not!), and at the same time allowing WOW and her husband to feel relieved, to know their son is in a safe and loving place, and to be able to enjoy a marriage relationship and a family life with their other children, both of which have somehow suffered.
Or are the kids in “home, sweet home” committed there by their families against their wishes and/or by child protection services? Perhaps “here to help”, “Speaker”, and the other fans of the method, will take a minute to elucidate and to explain us. At this point I am really curious. The “guarantee” that the “method” undoubtedly works “if implemented correctly” is definitely a conversation point.
it takes time get accustomed. Let me reassure you, however, that when done correctly it is guaranteed to have positive results. The faster you get with the program the faster you will see these results.
PS What does it mean to be a “member” of “Twisted”? Is that an association? Is there documentation which is publicly available? We would like to know more.
WOW please don’t hurry to shed tears upon his imaginary tattoo: I understand you cry if he gets one, but so far, it’s just hot air. Is it legal in Israel to tattoo an underage without parental consent? A tattoo shop, which is how some people make a living, is hardly going to risk being fined because of his whims. Also, they avoid unreliable people like the plague, as they are harassed by customers who get something done and afterwards change their mind, want it removed (at the shop’s expense) and try to blame the parlor. I think a piercer or tattooer may figure out pretty quickly a thing or two.
I am curious about what will happen to that T-shirt after it gets dirty. Who will wash and press it?
Shabbat Shalom, don’t let him ruin your happiness, and in my humble opinion, trust your husband, your rabbi, your father and father in law – they are the people who can advice – they know you, they know the situation, they know the boy.
“Better than”
dear WOW I am very sorry about what you write us. I think PCOZ is giving very sound advice, what do your parents and parents-in-law say? Can they come to your home for a few weeks? If not, can you invite someone at your home for a few weeks? Friends visiting Israel? You could even offer them to enjoy your son’s bed, say, for the time slot 22-7. I know you don’t feel like laughing, but try to see the comic side. Depression is unhelpful, try not to add it to a situation which is overwhelming in itself.
And hey, you don’t need your son’s permission to laugh.
As for your previous message — no, you are the strong one and the one who are going through it. We only talk. Yes we have no doubt been through troubles, problems and challenges, each person did, but e.g. I myself never have experienced anything like what you describe.
wow you are very strong, you are much stronger than you think, as proven by the fact you are handling the situation alright, after three months of emotional roller coaster. Be hatzlacha and be aware that most of us, in your shoes, would have been a pathetic failure. I know you feel you aren’t dealing well with the situation and possibly you feel like a failure, but this is simply untrue, and don’t allow anyone to insinuate that (including yourself). For incomprehensible reasons your son is going through a difficult time, which we all hope it gets finished after a while and without leaving permanent scars. But whatever the reason, that has nothing to do with you and your husband, as proven by his siblings, who no doubt also encountered “imperfect” role models (did we not all meet such people?) and yet did not react in the same way. Sometimes life events are impossible to understand, so, stop beating yourself up, that does no good to your son, to the rest of your family, nor to you.
Thank G-d he is healthy and happy. But please step back. You do not have the right to tell another adult how to lead their life. You can change the lock if you don’t want him to come back, or ignore him, or welcome him, as you see fit (let me stress YOU). And so on for the internet, the liquor and everything – you are the parent and you decide. But you can’t try to manipulate him by using your feelings, because as you can see, he is doing the same to you. I realize you are worried for real when he leaves and does not tell you where is going, when he’ll be back, and cellphone is either off or you don’t dare calling. But you can’t afford worries. People who G-d forbid have bad diseases or have a child with such problems, don’t have time to worry, 24hrs a day are not enough to finish all they have to do. People did not worry during the war, they used that energy to do everything in their power to survive. You have to do the same and be strong. And, I realize that, like anyone else in your position, you are less than delighted about his lifestyle, but please don’t use light-heartedly expressions such as “he ripped my heart”, G-d forbid there are parents who have children who get in trouble with the most serious criminal laws, or in the “best” case, admit having chosen a lifestyle such as advertised by the Jerusalem parade.
I am not denying the possibility that some RY or teacher did something wrong to him (like you, me and everyone else, they are not perfect, and, your son is not perfect either) but even if it were so (I think something happened, but it is much less of a big deal than you think), yet you should not IMHO justify your son using it as an excuse. With this outlook, someone, even if surrounded by perfect tzaddikim, can say the same, can even blame G-d for “picking” mitzvot and neglecting some. You never heard about someone dying while doing the mitzvot that bring long life? I know personally such stories, besides them being recorded in the Talmud. But this is not how we are taught, is it. There are things we don’t understand, and when we don’t, we leave it at that. The more you feed into his delusions and the more he’ll be unhappy. He is happy with his “friends”, yet they don’t treat him with velvet gloves, they give him harsh “mussar” (within their outlook), they hold him responsible. Perhaps there is something to learn from that.
Shabbat Shalom to you and all your family
Apologies, I was away from the computer.
I wish to clarify I was not suggesting a correctional facility, which I personally think it’s not a place to send our loved ones to (but which, unfortunately, law enforcement does send people to, and not always for valid reasons). I was suggesting a normal environment, like real life. My clothing does not magically iron itself, the dishwasher / house helper / computer etc. are very nice but come with bills attached, and if I were to disrespect someone, I would have to deal with the obvious consequences. The boy’s attitude is a problem regardless if he’s in yeshiva, in college, in business, or anywhere else. He needs someone, forgive me for saying it, to finally let him know that he is not the center of the universe, nor is he the top of the universe that no one may dare to express displeasure to. But I suppose it’s moot now. We should all wish the best to him now that he left home, and he is an underage whose cash will soon run out. My thoughts are especially with you wow who must be heartbroken beyond belief. I hope something good comes out of this tremendous difficulty you are going through. Please, see a good lawyer and tell him the story and ask for advice. Right now the priority is no longer mussar, it is protecting both him and your family – as you know very well, in israel certain services and agencies only wait for pretexts, and as soon as he gets recorded by any system – document check for security reasons, say – as an underage who left home, your family may be targeted as problematic. I hope nothing happens, that he just stays away for a few days and then returns home a different and better person. It will give him security to be on his own, and his “friends” can probably say to him what he would never accept being told by you and they might do so – let us try to see the good in everything. Be strong please, for yourself and everyone.
aries, people end up in prison or in psych wards for much less. You should ask around, I am sadly sure there are heartbreaking stories in your community as well.
Here to help, your advice is against what we have been doing for thousands of years, of course we may all be wrong and you may be right, but allow me to be wary of your advice. And from a practical viewpoint, while I realize none of us would like a 16 year old daughter who has “boys”, this is completely legal according to secular law, if all she does is going inside someone’s bedroom and close the door behind them.
I also have the feeling the family is about to snap: they are perceiving the boy to be dangerous or close to it, to the point they are afraid of being physically attacked. I have no idea if this is factual or if it is just their fear, but this is what the parents believe. What is going to happen when the family becomes even more afraid, say, they start to worry he may hurt his siblings? The stakes are very high. We have to protect the boy and his family from reaching that point.
As I already wrote three months ago, I believe this family needs a break. OK according to their son they did everything wrong, fair enough, but if so, the boy needs to be sent (ie the parents decide without consulting him and he complies) elsewhere. He needs to be in charge of someone whom he can’t blame for his supposed misfortunes, someone strong enough to discipline him (which means having his respect), someone who does not fuel his distorted sense of entitlement, someone who does not hand out cash easily. He wants liquor? he wants android phone and airtime minutes? he wants american clothing? he wants cigarettes? He wants to go to a fashion disco bar? Let him purchase all that with the sweat of his brow, especially given that he will be forced to do unqualified work (he preferred to sleep rather than study secular subjects, after all). And, he wants pressed shirts? Awesome, the iron is in the cabinet and the electric plug is available. Chances are that at the end of the day, he’ll fall asleep before being able to pour himself a drink.
It is of course only my humble opinion, I am no rabbi, I am no therapist, but I came across many more heartbeaking stories than I’d have liked to.
wow I am sorry to have to say, but if he throws a fit like that in public, and as you see he has no shame, he is going to a psych ward and/or to prison, where he will be savagely handled by his fellow inmates, as people like him are “disliked” to use an understatement.
I believe that as parents, you should take control of the situation.
You allow him to put on tefillin?
Don’t get involved in something like that, as no doubt you don’t know all the facts. I would tell the sibling with questions that she has to ask her parents and her rabbi.
You have to ask your posek, not ours. In regards to avoiding bidding wars and overinflated prices, especially when you can’t submit at the last minute, Gixen might be your friend.
It will get as far as you allow it to get.
The ipod file system is off-limits to the user, so, as you say, it is necessary to “break into it” if one actually wants root access (for example to set up an internet filter for iPhone / iPod, or for many other reasons). However the part of the filesystem which holds music files, podcasts and the like, is accessible. In other terms no jailbreak is needed. Also there is no DRM on iTunes downloads and iOS devices since a few years. Things can be moved freely back and forth.
If you wish to do directly without third-party software, this is definitely possible, however one needs to modify the “hidden files” option and do a few things in windows, it’s no big deal but it’s much easier to have a todo list while going through it. If you search, you will find the detailed instructions. I don’t post because links get deleted.
Both the third-party software and the operating system folders method will show the user whatever’s available. On a jailbroken iDevice it is all of the filesystem, which becomes completely accessible. On a non jailbroken iDevice it will be only those parts of the filesystem that iOS makes it available to the user to access directly.
You should be able to select all music in your new folder and then drag it into iTunes.
They do act like hard drives but we have to check the “hidden files” option in windows. Then we copy the files to the computer and when it’s finished, we make sure to again hide files and then we can again use iTunes normally.
Sorry but moderators did’t allow my reply with links.
Have you tried using a file browser such as iPhoneBrowser or iExplorer. They won’t normally see apps (unless you have root access) but they should see music and video files. You can then copy to your HD and later import into iTunes.
WOW your son disrespects you in public and you are worried about his clothing?
ar58x872p is what my 15″ macbookpro has. Probably a little older than your guest’s.
Now you got me curious, why do you need the FCC? Thanks for the info.
Stealing? whether that includes stealing? Am I reading correctly or there is a typo? And disrespecting old people?
I can understand that someone goes to a bar or a night club or watches “movies”: humans have free choice. However I expect such a person to present himself as a frei yid and to behave overall as a decent human being. Is this too much to ask?
I understand, but the main problem and the immediate danger is not the piercing or the movies and the like. Tell me, how is he planning to pay for his new lifestyle? Which is much less frugal than yours, not to mention that he’ll need some place to live. I am really concerned he will sooner or later do something stupid, and in the secular world there is very little leeway. He does not have many people to rely upon, much less people to whom he feels he can talk freely about everything and that will support him. A small mistake that under ordinary circumstances would be nothing, people learn a lesson and go on with their life, can be the beginning of a nightmare R’L. I do not know if you should be blunt (eg what to answer when he asks if you’d kick him out) as I don’t know your son (not that I am aware of) – but I do think you should worry about serious issues, such as being arrested and possibly going to prison R’L, such as getting serious diseases (eg from “cheap” piercing or tattoo studios, Hep B is everywhere in Israel especially recently with all the immigration) R’L and believe me there are many other health issues which require a good doctor (I have the impression he does not have one he trusts with confidentiality, and anyway would be too embarrassed), and have you considered the risk of feeling overwhelmed by shame (at whatever trouble he runs into and is about to become known in public), and R’L very bad things can happen in this case too.
I also believe you should also worry seriously about your other children, I believe you are underestimating how much they are suffering and what is at stake. I realize you are very worried about your son’s observance, but you have to try to keep your head cool, especially if you keep into account that other community members may feel some steps are necessary in order to protect themselves and their own children.
I am heartbroken.
I maintain what I said already, the boy is not rebellious. If he were rebellious he would shave, buy new clothings, and find himself a job and a girlfriend. We may dislike it, but (assuming halacha were to be violated) this is between him, himself and Hashem. This is not the case. The boy has expensive hobbies and no way to support them, and is not seeking for one.
WOW I will not argue with you about observance, but there is something that does not add up in your description of the story. You are presenting yourself as a long-time observant family that has been living in a chareidi neighbourhood and belongs to a tight-knit community. However you don’t have anyone to rely upon, but, most important, what I deduce from your words (which may very well be wrong, but possibly is the same things that other people deduce) is that your son is out of control, and that you will not agree to any suggestion which the RY and the community is likely to make, and which are likely, or should I say, certain, to be much tougher than order the child to stay at a relative for a few weeks and behave. As a result I am very afraid that ignoring the problem does not make it go away, all the contrary. What do you think might happen? Do you expect your good standing in the community – and your other children’s – might be affected? And what would you do if you were in their shoes?
I will only say one last thing. There are choices which we disagree with, such as smoking, which is unhealthy and causes terrible diseases. But I have many smokers among my friends. One thing is to smoke, another thing is to be unpleasant and light a cigarette in front of people who don’t like breathing poison, yet another is to smoke under the sign “no smoking” in the hospital, and yet another wholly new level is attempting to blame our own decision to smoke upon others and the stress they supposedly caused us, and attempting to manipulate them and belittling them in the eyes of third parties.
PS I find it outright scary that you are so upset about him becoming frei (in fact, even jeans are a big deal) and then you say “If my son were throwing out a jacket I bought him, I wouldn’t complain.” What sort of human being does that? To a parent no less, but even if it were to a friend? Is that the sort of middot he has? There is no Torah without middos, last time I checked. I understand his schoolmates and teachers told him something wrong or were unfair (I suppose your son is perfection and he never hurt any of them in the slightest? Or you think this is irrealistic?), but you failed to tell him there is no justification and there will be no sympathy for his current attitude, where he is “the victim” from whom everyone must beg forgiveness. First of all, there was no abuse of any sort. Second, he should have told his parents if anything bothered him a lot (so that they may get involved as best they see fit) and he should have put things into perspective (one does not broke friendships upon silly little things, a normal person cares for others and wants to see them happy, even if this requires giving in a little bit over irrelevant issues). Then, you yourself admit it’s not the school and he would be saying the same, or worse, had you enrolled him in a “B” school. And I have never seen you comment about the heartache your son is likely to have caused to his teachers, rabbis, RH, much less I heard a word of yours, asking advice about how to fix that.
Chag Sameach to all of you.
I agree with you, except your suggestion leaves us with two details to be worked out
– I am sure everyone understands one can’t do it in a homogeneous community without expecting people to protect their identity and fight back
– are you so sure the boy would automatically (magically?) become a happy and fulfilled adult if only he got “permission” (who has to give him permission?) to “enjoy” his lack of observance and/or belief? Countless people abandon the religious lifestyle, where is the need to hurt, disrespect, manipulate others?
What is your suggestion OhTeeDee?
It is my opinion this situation is well past the point you can handle it alone. Also the community may be starting to feel that they need to protect themselves and their children.
Do you have parents or siblings or close friends where you could send the boy for a few weeks? What about your husband? Forgive me the question. I am afraid of a disaster building up and it breaks my heart.
WOW Suppose you had sent him to a “weaker” school instead. Do you expect he would now be thanking you? Or rather that he’d be much more resentful?
Your son has no right to disrespect you and his father, in addition to the obvious fact you did nothing wrong and tried your best to make him happy and build him a happy future.
What do you mean “you hope” he will agree to something next year? This is a point that should not even be questioned. This is not about clothing, this is not even about being observant and/or a believer. How can it be up to negotiations if he “would like” to be a productive adult? And even more important, why is he telling this to you? It is intrinsic to people to have a purpose in life, even drug addicts claim e.g. the drugs help with their “creativity” or whatever. What does he wish to achieve in life, where does he see himself 10, 20, 50 years from now? This in my opinion is the key, then all of you can start building around it. Yes of course people change, but we have to address his troubles right now.
There is nothing intrinsecally wrong with wearing jeans and blue shirts in a black-and-white community, in fact it may open the path to a more relaxed and accepting atmosphere, BUT, it takes A LOT of guts and enormous strength to do that, especially for a teenager. No doubt if he has been somehow bullied etc. with black-and-white clothing already, if he is seen around with jeans and a laptop is going to get much worse, with rebbeim and teachers and everything, the neighbours, etc etc. Who can withstand such pressure? Some can, but not many. Can this boy? I am not certain, in fact, I doubt.
He seems to be intending to “test the waters” but he will create much more trouble for himself, an amount of trouble I am not sure he has fully evaluated, to the point that (I don’t condone, but unfortunately, it is plausible reality) he might be pushed away, and possibly, worse than checking out a bunch of stupid things on the internet. We can only hope that, leaving him space, he will feel self-confident enough to build himself some outlet (and possibly wear jeans elsewhere, say at college?) while avoiding to stand out too much in your environment, and yet, defending how he stands out from the “average” or “norm” or “community standard” which people must feel he does because he has good reasons to. The third part, you in the family and everyone else who cares for him, should participate in doing. However, the first step for that, is for him to be convinced he does because he has good reasons to. I am not sure this is the case now, in fact he may at this time have the wrong reasons, and there, you and his father need to help.
Allow him some space.
When you saw him, you should have told him the truth: you were worried, you missed him, you went out for a walk in the hope of seeing him “by chance”. Denying the truth and invalidating what he correctly perceived, only undermines trust. There is nothing wrong for a parent in being worried about a child, in fact it’s the contrary which would be repulsive. A child may say, I’d rather you had not come to search for me, or may say, please next time, if I go out, it’s because I wish to be alone; but that’s all. And no bad feelings will arise.
Don’t make a big deal that he smokes from time to time, chances are your own grandfather or great-grandfather smoked. Yes, that was before the health damage from tobacco was known, but everything does damage, even medication we take it when it prevents a worse danger. Watching TV is awful, but a person in the hospital may feel distracted from pain by watching tv and so we encourage. Try to think of his innocuous rebellion that way, after all he has not done anything criminal, not even illegal, and i suspect, not even assur. Thank G-d, but also give a little credit to him, he has free will after all.
Your son believes you want to control him, and actually, his belief is not completely unfounded. Leave him some space, everybody has mood swings, most people have smoked in their life, we are on the internet this very minute, and yet we have not become homeless drug-addicts or criminals. Don’t play a blame game, let him take his responsibilities without running to clean up his mistakes, but don’t invade his space either, be very respectful and don’t lie, and in twenty years he will be asking *you* for advice with his teenage kids. Be hatzlacha.
PS How are your other kids doing? Talk to them, for their sake but also because sometimes siblings have very valuable advice.
zahavasdad, please, tell us the list of places that are run by merit and that hire the best candidates. You may also want to double check with chiloni or nonjewish colleagues who know such institutions first-hand.
far east, I realize what you’re saying, but it does not help to self-inflict further suffering because we received an injustice. People have rebuilt their life from nameless horrors and you state that a bad experience, a hurtful experience, I’ll even say a destructive experience but let us put that in perspective, might G-d forbid hinder someone’s success in life? We all have had troubles of some sort or some others, and successful people did too. He will be successful in whatever endeavours he pursues, as long as he wants to. I am well aware the school wronged him and damaged him, but we are in no position to affect this. It does not help to disempower him further and to further insinuate doubts about himself, no matter how well-intentioned. If he feels capable, empowered and in control, then our self-image and self-confidence has no problem in deciding that a certain yeshiva is too demanding and trying to make the most of it as long as he’s stuck there, and then, apply elsewhere for the next year, without feeling like a failure, without thinking over and over with bitterness against the RY and others who wronged him; a person can be successful in life and can move on from a bad experience, and looking back, he’ll say the school was not suited to him, that’s all.
First of all wow I thank you for your blessings and kind words, may the blesser be blessed many times.
The situation has the potential to turn around, because now your son wants to be in yeshiva, wants the respect of his RY (looks like the respect of his friends is too shallow and that the charm of the novelty is fading away), however the RY, in my opinion correctly, is not lowering the bar. The boy is very smart and has the potential to achieve what is asked from him. I would let him handle everything – he is an adult, remember? He makes his own decisions. It would be very empowering, and I am quite confident that the RY will be impressed too, so will his schoolmates who will then admire him (and make it less likely he search other people to hang around with). I think you have to step back – at least, as far as he is aware of – from getting involved with the school. Remember? A couple of weeks ago he was saying he wanted nothing to do with it. You could also arrange “randomly” for him to meet the teachers who held him in such high esteem and who no doubt will ask questions about how he’s doing now (he does not want to disappoint them), who perhaps might also be available to learn together, or who may have other ideas we have not thought about.
A school is a school is a school! It has to fit a mold. Of course this is less than ideal, it’d be much better if everyone could learn with a rabbi. But when it is not possible, schools exist and we have to make the most of it, as everyone who went to school is well aware. It’s hard to run a school, and there are so many constraints and so many overwhelming problems. Yes, I agree, it’s a system which hurts people and has to be fixed, but we can’t wait for that. You did not “send” your son there, he was happy to, or else, he’d have definitely voiced his opinion to the contrary, as he’s been doing at other times. True, perhaps this particular yeshiva was not best suited to him. But mistakes happen, it’s a fact of life, and certainly parents and teachers make a lot. The only disaster-proof way of never making mistakes is doing nothing at all. Ask your son how he would organize a school. Of course make sure that any feasible suggestions should reach the school board via third-parties, in addition to encouraging him to suggest directly: if even a small change were to be implemented, but possibly even just a word of consideration, might be something your son never forgets.
Thank you for your kind words wow. I am sure everyone here is writing from the heart. I am happy to hear good news. As for your husband’s attitude, I think that your son can learn from that too. Your son wants to be in control and wants to make his own life decisions – which is a good thing, of course – an important part of life is that adults decide for themselves (and their dependants). And different adults see fit to decide different approaches, all of which are to be respected if we want respect for our own choices.
Besides, the world is not completely predictable. We act the same way to hundreds of customers, most of them are satisfied but one walks away and is offended and we can’t even figure out why… we raise children similarly, but one is different…. some students stand out in class and teachers wonder where it comes from, consider their families and conclude it’s incomprehensible…. This is something we all have to face in life, whatever the reason; I know it’s hard for you to focus because you are facing it right now and the hard way, but consider your son will too, when he will have children and even earlier than that.
You should take very great care that this situation does not affect the rest of the family, and notice, that includes you. Take very good care of yourself. Take a break from the situation sometimes. You need all your strength.
I would not focus so much on mitzvot or lack thereof or his observance currently being “less than mehadrin”, because as I said, I think it would be the same if it were a secular family, then he’d seek excuses for avoiding sunday brunch or the baseball game or whatever else. This is one additional reason I believe it is a mistake for you and your husband not to step in and take responsibility. Please, keep in mind he is very vulnerable.
If you feel you are lost, I believe you should go to your rabbi, the one you trust, and talk to him and then do what he says. Nobody, not even a qualified person (and I am not, nor do I know if other CR commenters are) is able to give sensible advice over the internet. Please, don’t rely upon us. I know we are anonymous to each others and the rabbi knows you, and we all, in your position, would rather not. But, we all sometimes have to say embarrassing things to the rabbi (or the doctor, or our spouse, or our parents, or worse it was found out by others), and yours does not even compare to some worse ones we’ve had to share and that I can, unfortunately, think of.
I don’t think it is rebellion, I think it is confusion, which in teenage years of course there is usually some friction with family, but I would not call it rebellion, he is not sure himself of what he wants to do. He rejects your lifestyle (but it seems to me he is committed to judaism, which is a huge blessing) but he has no alternative! Listening to that music is not a lifestyle, it may be something we do on the subway (or we may prefer reading, or whatever) but can not define an identity, no matter how many hours a day is done.
He does not want to daven? Tell him “there is no jew who does every mitzva, there is no jew who does none, so, we are all in the same middle ground”. What you should do, is to enable him to daven and do mitzvot without feeling embarrassed, whenever he wants to (I suspect it accounts for most situations, and possibly to all) so that he can be observant (at least, as much as he wants to) and all that while retaining his self-image that he is independent, adult (he actually is), and different from a surrounding which, for some reasons that so far you don’t know, he feels as oppressive. If it is necessary, let him call himself non-haredi…. no big deal. Yes some fools may say a word or two, if so, proudly introduce to someone else in front of them your non-haredi boy, and they will shut up once for all.
You’re lucky w.o.w. that you did not go through these difficult “growth pains” when you were his age 🙂 most people do, and sure I did. I suspect most rabbis too, would relate, but what do I know, I am no rabbi 🙂 yet, don’t dismiss that a rabbi may have been through the very same experience, possibly his own rabbis and teachers.
Not sure if I can check again before shabbat, either way, shabbat shalom to you and all your family. And to your son’s friends too.
It’s not unusual for a child to rebel a little bit, and in fact, it usually turns out to be healthy. But is this what is happening? From the outside, this is not what I see.
You say he listens to terrible music, with curses and everything. But, he is not really rebellious. He is not standing up and saying: “I’m not interested in a frum lifestyle, which was imposed upon me as long as I was a child, and I am not interested in college either; I think my career is in disco music or in the show business, dirty words included: live with it”. If that were the case, I think supporting such a child would mean a lot, and possibly such a child would remain shomer shabbos and keep kosher and so on, in a secular environment, according to his wishes. But this does not seem to be the case. Plus, your son is a very sweet-hearted child, who feels embarrassed, who as your friend says, deep inside does not care for that music and time-wasting, and who knows why he hangs out with these boys? You assume he is seeking for acceptance, but instead, I suspect he might be *offering* acceptance to those kids. This is a child with a golden heart, and as such, he may be taken advantage of (not necessarily by his friends, who seem to be a little bit disfunctional, but overall, decent people) or simply he may be a victim of unfortunate circumstances. You realize that, due to stupid laws (which, however, exist), he can’t legally have a beer with his friends.