daniela

Chayav misa? I suppose he was watched by two shomer shabbos adult male witnesses, fit to testimony, who warned him and he carried on, and that the abuse was a highly specific one and with certain specifications which we don’t detail because we either know it already, or the coffeeroom is not the place to learn such details. If not, then looks like it’s going to be a bit of a problem for those who accuse him of a capital crime.

And after all, we can’t impose penalties outside of Torah can we?

Am I the only one who does not think it is normal that jewish people have the chutzpah to utter words, and to their parents no less, such as “I can’t believe you LET me wear a long pony tail at that age, I look ridiculous!”?

Dear Aries I may very well be off-base, however, I have not insulted or slandered anyone: I have asked a question. Are the minors staying voluntarily and can they leave at any time, or are they institutionalized? Are they free to behave as they please according to the “unconditional love” attitude which is demanded from WOW, or are there rules in place, and if so, what happens to those who defy them? Are the minors in charge of their parents who retain rights and obligations and who make any and all decisions during their guest stay, or are they charges of the residential community according to NY and federal secular law? I am not saying this or that option is a bad thing, nor am I denying that those services are necessary for some minors: they are, no different than hospitals and surgeries and chemoterapy are necessary and are tremendous mitzvot. However, it seems appropriate that we all should be aware of the sort of services being suggested; and whether these services are suitable to a particular boy is a legitimate question, if you don’t mind. Especially given that I had the impression WOW is not interested in having her young son admitted into such an institution. Which for what is worth, I fully support.

In addition, I find there is something dissonant about the TP supporters demanding from WOW she must be “accepting” of her son and any behaviour of his, and that she must express him unconditional love allowing him to leave the house whenever he pleases without even saying where he goes, to get up whenever he pleases, to wear whatever he pleases, to drink liquor and smoke cigarettes to his liking, and so on – and some have reprimanded WOW for having reacted in the obvious way to the stupid t-shirt – I would find it surprising if this advice is confirmed to come from people who are running a residential community, where I am not quite sure children are remotely allowed a shadow of that. But, of course, may be I am wrong, so please dispel our misconceptions. With facts, not with refusal to answer.

Finally, nobody can guarantee anything. We can’t even guarantee our lifespan. There is no magic solution: there are many educational approaches, some work for some children and other work for other children, and we have to teach each child according to their inclination. It is ironical and saddening that the very approach which supposedly accepts every kid no matter what they do – thus implying and leading us to believe it allows every child to be themselves and find their true path in life – treats them as xerox copies and treats their parents as fools whose insight is consistently dismissed and who are told to follow blindly and without asking questions a certain “easy and simple method”.

WOW please don’t hurry to shed tears upon his imaginary tattoo: I understand you cry if he gets one, but so far, it’s just hot air. Is it legal in Israel to tattoo an underage without parental consent? A tattoo shop, which is how some people make a living, is hardly going to risk being fined because of his whims. Also, they avoid unreliable people like the plague, as they are harassed by customers who get something done and afterwards change their mind, want it removed (at the shop’s expense) and try to blame the parlor. I think a piercer or tattooer may figure out pretty quickly a thing or two.

I am curious about what will happen to that T-shirt after it gets dirty. Who will wash and press it?

Shabbat Shalom, don’t let him ruin your happiness, and in my humble opinion, trust your husband, your rabbi, your father and father in law – they are the people who can advice – they know you, they know the situation, they know the boy.

dear WOW I am very sorry about what you write us. I think PCOZ is giving very sound advice, what do your parents and parents-in-law say? Can they come to your home for a few weeks? If not, can you invite someone at your home for a few weeks? Friends visiting Israel? You could even offer them to enjoy your son’s bed, say, for the time slot 22-7. I know you don’t feel like laughing, but try to see the comic side. Depression is unhelpful, try not to add it to a situation which is overwhelming in itself.

And hey, you don’t need your son’s permission to laugh.

As for your previous message — no, you are the strong one and the one who are going through it. We only talk. Yes we have no doubt been through troubles, problems and challenges, each person did, but e.g. I myself never have experienced anything like what you describe.

Thank G-d he is healthy and happy. But please step back. You do not have the right to tell another adult how to lead their life. You can change the lock if you don’t want him to come back, or ignore him, or welcome him, as you see fit (let me stress YOU). And so on for the internet, the liquor and everything – you are the parent and you decide. But you can’t try to manipulate him by using your feelings, because as you can see, he is doing the same to you. I realize you are worried for real when he leaves and does not tell you where is going, when he’ll be back, and cellphone is either off or you don’t dare calling. But you can’t afford worries. People who G-d forbid have bad diseases or have a child with such problems, don’t have time to worry, 24hrs a day are not enough to finish all they have to do. People did not worry during the war, they used that energy to do everything in their power to survive. You have to do the same and be strong. And, I realize that, like anyone else in your position, you are less than delighted about his lifestyle, but please don’t use light-heartedly expressions such as “he ripped my heart”, G-d forbid there are parents who have children who get in trouble with the most serious criminal laws, or in the “best” case, admit having chosen a lifestyle such as advertised by the Jerusalem parade.

I am not denying the possibility that some RY or teacher did something wrong to him (like you, me and everyone else, they are not perfect, and, your son is not perfect either) but even if it were so (I think something happened, but it is much less of a big deal than you think), yet you should not IMHO justify your son using it as an excuse. With this outlook, someone, even if surrounded by perfect tzaddikim, can say the same, can even blame G-d for “picking” mitzvot and neglecting some. You never heard about someone dying while doing the mitzvot that bring long life? I know personally such stories, besides them being recorded in the Talmud. But this is not how we are taught, is it. There are things we don’t understand, and when we don’t, we leave it at that. The more you feed into his delusions and the more he’ll be unhappy. He is happy with his “friends”, yet they don’t treat him with velvet gloves, they give him harsh “mussar” (within their outlook), they hold him responsible. Perhaps there is something to learn from that.

Shabbat Shalom to you and all your family

aries, people end up in prison or in psych wards for much less. You should ask around, I am sadly sure there are heartbreaking stories in your community as well.

Here to help, your advice is against what we have been doing for thousands of years, of course we may all be wrong and you may be right, but allow me to be wary of your advice. And from a practical viewpoint, while I realize none of us would like a 16 year old daughter who has “boys”, this is completely legal according to secular law, if all she does is going inside someone’s bedroom and close the door behind them.

I also have the feeling the family is about to snap: they are perceiving the boy to be dangerous or close to it, to the point they are afraid of being physically attacked. I have no idea if this is factual or if it is just their fear, but this is what the parents believe. What is going to happen when the family becomes even more afraid, say, they start to worry he may hurt his siblings? The stakes are very high. We have to protect the boy and his family from reaching that point.

As I already wrote three months ago, I believe this family needs a break. OK according to their son they did everything wrong, fair enough, but if so, the boy needs to be sent (ie the parents decide without consulting him and he complies) elsewhere. He needs to be in charge of someone whom he can’t blame for his supposed misfortunes, someone strong enough to discipline him (which means having his respect), someone who does not fuel his distorted sense of entitlement, someone who does not hand out cash easily. He wants liquor? he wants android phone and airtime minutes? he wants american clothing? he wants cigarettes? He wants to go to a fashion disco bar? Let him purchase all that with the sweat of his brow, especially given that he will be forced to do unqualified work (he preferred to sleep rather than study secular subjects, after all). And, he wants pressed shirts? Awesome, the iron is in the cabinet and the electric plug is available. Chances are that at the end of the day, he’ll fall asleep before being able to pour himself a drink.

It is of course only my humble opinion, I am no rabbi, I am no therapist, but I came across many more heartbeaking stories than I’d have liked to.

You allow him to put on tefillin?

You have to ask your posek, not ours. In regards to avoiding bidding wars and overinflated prices, especially when you can’t submit at the last minute, Gixen might be your friend.

The ipod file system is off-limits to the user, so, as you say, it is necessary to “break into it” if one actually wants root access (for example to set up an internet filter for iPhone / iPod, or for many other reasons). However the part of the filesystem which holds music files, podcasts and the like, is accessible. In other terms no jailbreak is needed. Also there is no DRM on iTunes downloads and iOS devices since a few years. Things can be moved freely back and forth.

If you wish to do directly without third-party software, this is definitely possible, however one needs to modify the “hidden files” option and do a few things in windows, it’s no big deal but it’s much easier to have a todo list while going through it. If you search, you will find the detailed instructions. I don’t post because links get deleted.

Both the third-party software and the operating system folders method will show the user whatever’s available. On a jailbroken iDevice it is all of the filesystem, which becomes completely accessible. On a non jailbroken iDevice it will be only those parts of the filesystem that iOS makes it available to the user to access directly.

They do act like hard drives but we have to check the “hidden files” option in windows. Then we copy the files to the computer and when it’s finished, we make sure to again hide files and then we can again use iTunes normally.

Have you tried using a file browser such as iPhoneBrowser or iExplorer. They won’t normally see apps (unless you have root access) but they should see music and video files. You can then copy to your HD and later import into iTunes.

ar58x872p is what my 15″ macbookpro has. Probably a little older than your guest’s.

Now you got me curious, why do you need the FCC? Thanks for the info.

I understand, but the main problem and the immediate danger is not the piercing or the movies and the like. Tell me, how is he planning to pay for his new lifestyle? Which is much less frugal than yours, not to mention that he’ll need some place to live. I am really concerned he will sooner or later do something stupid, and in the secular world there is very little leeway. He does not have many people to rely upon, much less people to whom he feels he can talk freely about everything and that will support him. A small mistake that under ordinary circumstances would be nothing, people learn a lesson and go on with their life, can be the beginning of a nightmare R’L. I do not know if you should be blunt (eg what to answer when he asks if you’d kick him out) as I don’t know your son (not that I am aware of) – but I do think you should worry about serious issues, such as being arrested and possibly going to prison R’L, such as getting serious diseases (eg from “cheap” piercing or tattoo studios, Hep B is everywhere in Israel especially recently with all the immigration) R’L and believe me there are many other health issues which require a good doctor (I have the impression he does not have one he trusts with confidentiality, and anyway would be too embarrassed), and have you considered the risk of feeling overwhelmed by shame (at whatever trouble he runs into and is about to become known in public), and R’L very bad things can happen in this case too.

I also believe you should also worry seriously about your other children, I believe you are underestimating how much they are suffering and what is at stake. I realize you are very worried about your son’s observance, but you have to try to keep your head cool, especially if you keep into account that other community members may feel some steps are necessary in order to protect themselves and their own children.

WOW I will not argue with you about observance, but there is something that does not add up in your description of the story. You are presenting yourself as a long-time observant family that has been living in a chareidi neighbourhood and belongs to a tight-knit community. However you don’t have anyone to rely upon, but, most important, what I deduce from your words (which may very well be wrong, but possibly is the same things that other people deduce) is that your son is out of control, and that you will not agree to any suggestion which the RY and the community is likely to make, and which are likely, or should I say, certain, to be much tougher than order the child to stay at a relative for a few weeks and behave. As a result I am very afraid that ignoring the problem does not make it go away, all the contrary. What do you think might happen? Do you expect your good standing in the community – and your other children’s – might be affected? And what would you do if you were in their shoes?

I will only say one last thing. There are choices which we disagree with, such as smoking, which is unhealthy and causes terrible diseases. But I have many smokers among my friends. One thing is to smoke, another thing is to be unpleasant and light a cigarette in front of people who don’t like breathing poison, yet another is to smoke under the sign “no smoking” in the hospital, and yet another wholly new level is attempting to blame our own decision to smoke upon others and the stress they supposedly caused us, and attempting to manipulate them and belittling them in the eyes of third parties.

PS I find it outright scary that you are so upset about him becoming frei (in fact, even jeans are a big deal) and then you say “If my son were throwing out a jacket I bought him, I wouldn’t complain.” What sort of human being does that? To a parent no less, but even if it were to a friend? Is that the sort of middot he has? There is no Torah without middos, last time I checked. I understand his schoolmates and teachers told him something wrong or were unfair (I suppose your son is perfection and he never hurt any of them in the slightest? Or you think this is irrealistic?), but you failed to tell him there is no justification and there will be no sympathy for his current attitude, where he is “the victim” from whom everyone must beg forgiveness. First of all, there was no abuse of any sort. Second, he should have told his parents if anything bothered him a lot (so that they may get involved as best they see fit) and he should have put things into perspective (one does not broke friendships upon silly little things, a normal person cares for others and wants to see them happy, even if this requires giving in a little bit over irrelevant issues). Then, you yourself admit it’s not the school and he would be saying the same, or worse, had you enrolled him in a “B” school. And I have never seen you comment about the heartache your son is likely to have caused to his teachers, rabbis, RH, much less I heard a word of yours, asking advice about how to fix that.

Chag Sameach to all of you.

What is your suggestion OhTeeDee?

WOW Suppose you had sent him to a “weaker” school instead. Do you expect he would now be thanking you? Or rather that he’d be much more resentful?

What do you mean “you hope” he will agree to something next year? This is a point that should not even be questioned. This is not about clothing, this is not even about being observant and/or a believer. How can it be up to negotiations if he “would like” to be a productive adult? And even more important, why is he telling this to you? It is intrinsic to people to have a purpose in life, even drug addicts claim e.g. the drugs help with their “creativity” or whatever. What does he wish to achieve in life, where does he see himself 10, 20, 50 years from now? This in my opinion is the key, then all of you can start building around it. Yes of course people change, but we have to address his troubles right now.

Allow him some space.

When you saw him, you should have told him the truth: you were worried, you missed him, you went out for a walk in the hope of seeing him “by chance”. Denying the truth and invalidating what he correctly perceived, only undermines trust. There is nothing wrong for a parent in being worried about a child, in fact it’s the contrary which would be repulsive. A child may say, I’d rather you had not come to search for me, or may say, please next time, if I go out, it’s because I wish to be alone; but that’s all. And no bad feelings will arise.

Don’t make a big deal that he smokes from time to time, chances are your own grandfather or great-grandfather smoked. Yes, that was before the health damage from tobacco was known, but everything does damage, even medication we take it when it prevents a worse danger. Watching TV is awful, but a person in the hospital may feel distracted from pain by watching tv and so we encourage. Try to think of his innocuous rebellion that way, after all he has not done anything criminal, not even illegal, and i suspect, not even assur. Thank G-d, but also give a little credit to him, he has free will after all.

Your son believes you want to control him, and actually, his belief is not completely unfounded. Leave him some space, everybody has mood swings, most people have smoked in their life, we are on the internet this very minute, and yet we have not become homeless drug-addicts or criminals. Don’t play a blame game, let him take his responsibilities without running to clean up his mistakes, but don’t invade his space either, be very respectful and don’t lie, and in twenty years he will be asking *you* for advice with his teenage kids. Be hatzlacha.

PS How are your other kids doing? Talk to them, for their sake but also because sometimes siblings have very valuable advice.

First of all wow I thank you for your blessings and kind words, may the blesser be blessed many times.

The situation has the potential to turn around, because now your son wants to be in yeshiva, wants the respect of his RY (looks like the respect of his friends is too shallow and that the charm of the novelty is fading away), however the RY, in my opinion correctly, is not lowering the bar. The boy is very smart and has the potential to achieve what is asked from him. I would let him handle everything – he is an adult, remember? He makes his own decisions. It would be very empowering, and I am quite confident that the RY will be impressed too, so will his schoolmates who will then admire him (and make it less likely he search other people to hang around with). I think you have to step back – at least, as far as he is aware of – from getting involved with the school. Remember? A couple of weeks ago he was saying he wanted nothing to do with it. You could also arrange “randomly” for him to meet the teachers who held him in such high esteem and who no doubt will ask questions about how he’s doing now (he does not want to disappoint them), who perhaps might also be available to learn together, or who may have other ideas we have not thought about.

A school is a school is a school! It has to fit a mold. Of course this is less than ideal, it’d be much better if everyone could learn with a rabbi. But when it is not possible, schools exist and we have to make the most of it, as everyone who went to school is well aware. It’s hard to run a school, and there are so many constraints and so many overwhelming problems. Yes, I agree, it’s a system which hurts people and has to be fixed, but we can’t wait for that. You did not “send” your son there, he was happy to, or else, he’d have definitely voiced his opinion to the contrary, as he’s been doing at other times. True, perhaps this particular yeshiva was not best suited to him. But mistakes happen, it’s a fact of life, and certainly parents and teachers make a lot. The only disaster-proof way of never making mistakes is doing nothing at all. Ask your son how he would organize a school. Of course make sure that any feasible suggestions should reach the school board via third-parties, in addition to encouraging him to suggest directly: if even a small change were to be implemented, but possibly even just a word of consideration, might be something your son never forgets.

I would not focus so much on mitzvot or lack thereof or his observance currently being “less than mehadrin”, because as I said, I think it would be the same if it were a secular family, then he’d seek excuses for avoiding sunday brunch or the baseball game or whatever else. This is one additional reason I believe it is a mistake for you and your husband not to step in and take responsibility. Please, keep in mind he is very vulnerable.

If you feel you are lost, I believe you should go to your rabbi, the one you trust, and talk to him and then do what he says. Nobody, not even a qualified person (and I am not, nor do I know if other CR commenters are) is able to give sensible advice over the internet. Please, don’t rely upon us. I know we are anonymous to each others and the rabbi knows you, and we all, in your position, would rather not. But, we all sometimes have to say embarrassing things to the rabbi (or the doctor, or our spouse, or our parents, or worse it was found out by others), and yours does not even compare to some worse ones we’ve had to share and that I can, unfortunately, think of.

It’s not unusual for a child to rebel a little bit, and in fact, it usually turns out to be healthy. But is this what is happening? From the outside, this is not what I see.

You say he listens to terrible music, with curses and everything. But, he is not really rebellious. He is not standing up and saying: “I’m not interested in a frum lifestyle, which was imposed upon me as long as I was a child, and I am not interested in college either; I think my career is in disco music or in the show business, dirty words included: live with it”. If that were the case, I think supporting such a child would mean a lot, and possibly such a child would remain shomer shabbos and keep kosher and so on, in a secular environment, according to his wishes. But this does not seem to be the case. Plus, your son is a very sweet-hearted child, who feels embarrassed, who as your friend says, deep inside does not care for that music and time-wasting, and who knows why he hangs out with these boys? You assume he is seeking for acceptance, but instead, I suspect he might be *offering* acceptance to those kids. This is a child with a golden heart, and as such, he may be taken advantage of (not necessarily by his friends, who seem to be a little bit disfunctional, but overall, decent people) or simply he may be a victim of unfortunate circumstances. You realize that, due to stupid laws (which, however, exist), he can’t legally have a beer with his friends.

WoW I have to say, it seems to me you and your husband have to take responsibility within this situation. You are the parents, you have to make the decisions. And you have to be considerate of others, starting from your own other children and continuing with the neighbourhood and with those considering a shidduch with your family in the future.

Your son would not approve of you speaking with the rabbi? Do you need his approval? And why being expelled from yeshiva is suddendly such a terrible deterrent? I thought he was not interested in that lifestyle.