Forum Replies Created
I am very sorry about the suffering of your friend’s preemie. I will not comment further about the pain of premature babies, because some already know and the rest don’t need to.
However please do not insult us. You are too lazy to wear a mask and it bothers you and makes you feel ridiculous in your own eyes. So you don’t. You also probably voted for the candidate who caters to non-mask-wearers without even considering if he furthers your interests or he doesn’t. Have you even taken out a calculator and figured out which candidate is proposing the tax scheme most convenient to you?
Your country (you feel United Statesian, don’t you? You don’t feel you are a Yid and our enemy Esav will soon fall?) is in a sad state and whoever is the next President will go down in history books, and not in a desirable way. Maybe that’s why Biden did his best not to be elected. I understand, it’s not easy for you.
In order to put up your attitude, you are bringing up something totally unrelated: in NICU all people wear masks, whether there is covid-19 or not. You also do not refrain from suggesting that a major problem of preemies are mask-wearing people. Preemies whose every single interaction with a human being means added pain on top of unbearable pain, who may or may not see (oxygen-induced retinopathy and sometimes not possible to address it timely).Yet you are concerned about their loving parents and NICU staff wearing a mask, which anyway, they always do.
If you can’t have any empathy towards a tiny baby barely visible among the bundle of plumbing and machinery and who is suffering more than anyone under torture (the latter is aware that they eventually will lose consciousness or die) I don’t expect you to have empathy for anyone else.
Finally, may I say there is no dearth of science. There is a dearth of intelligent people.
As for the effect of the widespread use of masks in the general population, anyone can do their own elementary-school math, or can look up the study RESTART-19 in Germany, or more empirically, compare with China.
For anyone who wants to understand: yes, a virus is smaller than the gaps in a N95 or N99 mask (although it is usually attached to something larger, such as dust). The way they get blocked is because the synthetic fibers in the mask are deliberately electrically charged during the manufacturing process and will attract and trap it.
A well-fitted N95 mask will filter out at least 95%, however, if someone wears it and spends time in a room with ten people who all are positive and each one of them is spreading about 150 virus particles with every breath of theirs (or more if they speak), the N95 will help but not a lot. However, the mask is not defective, it was incorrectly used!
As for those who don’t mind catching the virus and don’t mind spreading it to others and possibly harming them, just stay far away from me and my family.
SRivka, you are right, facts speak for themselves. In Asia the virus is much more under control. We all know in EY a few people were very strict with masks and most were not. Why are you posting quotes from OSHA? Some of us are already familiar with hazmat and others will simply be overloaded by a piece of information they can’t contextualize or process. What are you seeking to achieve with your posts? To learn something? To convince others of your beliefs? If you want to get yourself (I hope not your family and children) exposed to this virus, you are free to do as you please, I certainly don’t have the desire, let alone the power, to prevent you from doing so. However, please note that not everyone is eager to catch this evil virus.
Are you really interested in an answer? It seems to me you have already made up your mind.
If correctly utilized, contemporary respiratory protection means a person will not get infected unless they want to. Period. Indeed, people dealing with the deadliest viruses in biology labs do not get sick. And if masks involved a risk, manufacturers would have been sued out of existence long since. There are a lot of surgeons and they all have an attorney.
If you would like to know how to choose respiratory protection and how to use it properly, there are many resources, ranging from manufacturers’ websites to government agencies’ informative material and regulations (you can pick any government and country you can think of, and they all say the same thing). Or you can post your questions and myself and others will take the time to answer. However it seems to me you already have made up your mind, and I can’t help with that.
With regards to your question about scientific works, you can pick up any aerobiology book printed before 2020 and you will find all the information you are seeking, complete with references to research articles that are not allowed to be posted here.
FWIW I would recommend Canada in the short term and I would not be so sure that Trump stays in power for four more years. Wishing the very best to you and all of your awesome family.
Do you guys deliberately catch bacterial infections since antibiotics exist?
You don’t catch the disease => you won’t need any medication, you will stay healthy, and you will not be responsible for infecting others.
akuperma what are you trying to prove? People who correctly wear respiratory protection do not get sick despite working with the deadliest pathogens. It’s true that users should be trained, and for N95 they should also be fit-tested, but I can’t solve myself all the problems in the world. I have helped people for free (I suppose a stupid idea) but most people are simply uninterested, and I can’t help that. There are lots of people who wear a mask either as a political statement, or because they think having it on the chin and occasionally pulling it up is better than nothing. Well, it is better than nothing, but just barely. Wearing a mask correctly makes a lot of difference.
not “high risk” i.e. elderly people or those with condition should stay away, but careless people should stay home.
It used to be true that surgical masks protect the patient and not the care providers, but this has changed a lot in the last 20-25 years, with sars, mers, avian flu, pig flu, Ebola etc. However, since those epidemics had low numbers in the West, new industrial standards for surgical masks were not adopted in USA and EU.Yet, since most masks are produced in Asia, they meet those quality standards.
IMHO the only way is to wear N95 and above and keep environmental concentration of virus within the masks’ design margins. This virus is transmitted by aerosol.
The more we learn about the virus effects, the more it becomes clear we must not catch it.
Do you mean scientifically or Torah?
Scientifically, yes they are not even remotely comparable. Any modern boat, let alone a ship, can’t be sunk by an individual who keeps drilling holes for the entire duration of the voyage, not even if he is given a power drill, not even if bilge pumps should fail. On the other hand, any person who has been infected (perhaps doesn’t even know that) and feels OK is spreading about 150 virus particles with every single breath.
Torah: I don’t presume to comment given that I am a woman, but I know for sure that when eventually I will face questioning, I will be able to say I have done my best to cull this evil disease and not catch it / spread it further.
“Those who want to avoid him are free to walk around”
What a smart reply. At least, it would be if we didn’t all breathe the same air. Reminds me of someone drilling a hole in the ship hull, but doing so strictly under his seat.
Surely you mean well, but masks block tiny particulate not according to your comparison with a colander or chicken wire, but because the material of modern masks (electret) electrostatically attracts nanodust which is captured and bound to the fibers. This is why Chinese KN95 work awesome and “community made” reusable cotton masks are not as effective.
No one really knows the death rate, because the epidemic is too recent. In 5 years, or 10 years, we can talk about mortality, or should I say, survival rate. For the time being, all we can say is that there are already a large number of deceased victims and that the epidemic is ongoing.
Some of us are silently taking care of our families at home, as well as going out when it’s needed, because we don’t have to shave our beards to fit a KN95 🙂
COVID-19 is real, is airborne, and if it is a blessing, I am happy to let other people “enjoy” it. I do not think it is in my interest to get infected.
Cholera can be airborne.
Would you advise your patients to get exposed to malaria given that HCQ is highly effective against it? I hope NOT!!! It has, like every medication, side effects (including psychotic episodes) and possible adverse events. I don’t know if I will take HCQ if I get sick with the virus (I’ll follow what the doctors say) but very definitely I am trying not to get sick.
Non-medical KN95 cut down exposure drastically, are affordable and widely available, and you can wear a surgical mask or face shield on top of them. Why aren’t they being pushed as an option? Perhaps because they are Made in China? Or perhaps because they contradict the President’s narrative and highlight his demented disruption of supply-chains at a highly critical time? I don’t care. Trump won’t help me when I won’t be able to provide for my family. Besides, according to the CNN audio, he seems to have known all along that the virus is transmitted via aerosol. And he lied to his subjects…. I mean, citizens. You can’t be too surprised that I am not taking his statements and his supporters’ words at face value.
what action did he take? Block flights from China? and not from EU? And downplay this “flu” suggesting it’s nothing too dangerous and anyway it would disappear soon?
I have spoken up, for free, to anyone I’ve met in person, Jewish or not, and occasionally on the internet. Some people do not want to listen. There is nothing anyone can do about it.
The Chinese suggested in February, and Westerner researchers confirmed in March, that the disease is aerosol-transmitted. WHO, which is as fast as a plastic fossile dinosaur model still packed for shipment, that is to say, in the event there were United Nations of Dinosaurs bickering constantly and threatening to nuke each others, WHO has been saying for months that TBC precautions are a good guideline. Reinfection was recently confirmed, but long since assumed as possible. Long-term consequences are all too obvious.
There are in this very thread people who believe that having caught and survived the virus is a plus. It isn’t so for other similar diseases, which did not reach Western countries and thus were not profitable to research. Perhaps they are correct and time will show there is immunity. However I am not betting my life and my family’s on that.
May be it’s sheer luck, but I don’t know anyone who got infected among people who always followed some annoying but easy precautions.
All relevant info has been available to any regular citizen since February. Many actions have proven to be effective: compare the death rate in the US with other countries. Trump failed and he should resign, and certainly not seek reelection. Compare with Bush.
Do you mean that men with a beard have a heter to spit around and make themselves disgusting, not to mention spreading this disease or other illnesses? Beard, where is your Yid?
Much needed words! Thank you 🙂
it’s not whether you want to protect yourself: you are obligated to protect yourself, last time I checked. Besides, if you get exposed you will be contagious and walking around.
Why no one is mentioning that AVOIDING covid-19 is a very real possibility, has no side effects, and works?
If people suggested it’s fine to catch malaria since HCQ is a reliable cure (which it is), we would be treating them as the madpeople they’d be. But somehow with the novel coronavirus it seems alright to discount suffering, which is very real, even if it were not to result in exitus. Sadly, often it does.
I have no idea about the true facts on this story and I am relying on what you, BY1212, post. You seem to be familiar with the facts, I have no idea about them. See quotation below:
<q> In an interview
Dr. Zelenko tells of a 29 yr. Old pregnant woman who contracted covid and asked him about hcq etc. which he told her to take. But her local doctor said no. She ended up losing her baby and is now braindead and on a ventilator.
So she was cruelly denied a path that might have saved her and her baby by the fauci’s and ubiqs of the world and condemned to certain death.
She is one example of millions around the world.
Just to massage your
I am very happy to hear she is very much alive, contrary to what you previously reported. Also, braindead is a very specific condition, you did not say comatose or unresponsive. I do not want to raise a completely different and very thorny issue, let me just say that what you wrote did not sound likely.
So the facts are that she did not receive Dr Zelenko’s protocol and is still alive? Was it incorrect to state she has been “condamned to certain death”?
You also did not address my questions. Was the lady willing to take the medications? Was Dr Zelenko willing to prescribe them to her?
You are not addressing the issue. Did she want to take the prescription? Was Dr Zelenko willing to prescribe it to her? Are the answers Yes/Yes or something else? I have traveled all over the world and I know a thing or two about medication outside local jurisdiction. Also can you please update us about the outcome? Why was a braindead person put on life support if the foetus was no longer alive or viable and given that (if I understand correctly the patient and her family are frum) consent for organ donation was unlikely? Thank you.
Did she want to take HCQ? If so why did not Dr Zelenko provide her with the prescription and medications?
I am no MD but I have background in science
I am fascinated by the debate about HCQ, yet the media hardly mention, say, remdesivir which has evidences. Can you explain? Thank you a lot
It is very difficult to be in a public position. That said, it is true that masks help a little those who wear them, and help significantly their neighbors, but due to the fact this virus is very contagious, it would require “professional” respiratory protection basically for everyone. The problem is there were not available even for health professionals, who were not trained either, not fitted, etc. Anyway, since it was all over the news, hospital bought PPE in large numbers, and they became difficult to find even for workers who needed them. And that’s besides the fact some people see masks as an attack to their freedom and individuality, or whatever.
My family stayed as much as possible at home. We wore KN95 or above when we had to go out, reusing them according to CDC guidelines. We’ve had no symptoms, but we did not get tested either.
@CTLAWYER So sorry to hear that. Was she wearing PPE? Does she think it was on the plane or in work interaction? Wishing her a refua shleima and please be very careful.
It was years I did not log in to this website
I do not think I know you in real life. but I read you often. I am very sorry to hear about your daughter catching the virus, she should have a refua shleima and suffer no long-term effect
Since you are among the not-many voices of reasons in this turmoil, I would like to ask you if she believes she caught the virus on the plane or during her work interactions and if she was wearing DPI.
Please be very careful and stay safe along with your family.
Sorry I did not say whom I was replying to, part was in reply to you and part to other comments. I agree with your statement that most children have no reason and no business to use the internet, on the other hand the access does not need to be regular and taken for granted for damage to occur (e.g. the poster HakunaMatada only had occasional access). I also respectfully disagree with your “8th grade” threshold, as an 8th grader, unless I am grossly miscalculating US school system, is probably Bar Mitzvah already or close to it.
With other forbidden items there is lots of social pressure, there’s the awareness they are forbidden, teenagers are also dissuaded by other parents’ awareness that people who have a forbidden or undesirable habit are not welcome as our/their children’s friends. There are many things that stand in the way of someone who is considering purchase or use of inappropriate items, all the way to fear / shame of being seen while purchasing or using.
Perhaps the tolerance towards internet can partially be explained by the fact many frum people don’t use it at all, as well as by the lack of technical awareness: malware and spyware alone – and legal liabilities on top of it – are enough of a threat to bring nonjewish and nonreligious internet users to implement heavy filtering. Someone already mentioned Cisco’s content filtering, which prides itself with “not interfering with the user’s experience” i.e. the user will hardly be able to realize that a filter is in place. They do so with BYOD in their own workplace, i.e. with employees who are professional network managers who know a thing or two.
I do not think we can say “inadvertent access to unwanted content” is only popups or banners, advertising sites we would not visit otherwise (and perhaps, not even imagine they existed). I think it is much more likely that a good and well-intentioned person with access to unfiltered internet joins Facebook for a sensible reason, say in order to keep in touch with someone overseas, and then, the problems begin.
As you wrote, no one really maintains that “one size fits all”. It’s no different than with clothing. But most people are shorter than 2.10m. Also, there are good reasons (including practical reasons) to separate our work environment which, for some, will need to be completely unfiltered (and probably with some “unsolicited” audits running there), and our own activity of web surfing, search, emails.
Chag Sameach & gmar chatima tova 🙂
A filter will not be of much help if someone wants to access certain sort of material. I agree that there are cheap smartphones availables and it will only increase. So what? After all there are various other forbidden items for sale, and many of them are very cheap and easily available, in every neighbourhood. If someone decides they want to purchase and use, it’s easy to. But most people don’t.
If you believe it’d be different with the internet, please explain why. If you believe people would rebel to being filtered and monitored, or at least resent it, please explain the reason it is not happening right now. Our local system administrator does, as well as our ISP, our Tier 1, and of course the government. I trust them zero, and on top of that I loathe them, and yet, I let them do so (I don’t have my own infrastructure and very few people do).
That said, please don’t insult our intelligence about “questionable material” being equated with something a MD or an OB-GYN would study (one can only wish it were so), nor about professionals “needing” access to unfiltered internet (which, actually, most of us want to filter in order to avoid malware, spyware, and unwanted content which, as it was already mentioned, can land innocent people in jail due to law violations by their employees).
I can think of only one industry that needs completely unfiltered access (not really to the user, but indeed to their machine), and that is data mining. I sure hope those who are in that business have asked a shaila whether it’s a permissible manner to make a living.
Maybe there are other areas with similar requirements, and please feel free to list them. I can’t think of others.
I never heard of any college that mandates use of their computers and networks for connecting to the internet (suddendly a personal device and connection is too expensive for people who spend tens and hundreds of K$ on college?) and by the way, the standard is that they monitor, filter, and sometimes do more than that.
Finally I don’t have any problem about you using or not using any filters, in fact, if you have unfiltered internet, I assume you have both good valid reasons and a heter, as well as sharp skills and/or a full-time network manager. Yet, this is quite different from treating others like fools because they use a filter.August 9, 2013 11:11 am at 11:11 am in reply to: Please advise me re: how to handle power struggles #970614
I am not sure you should post on the public internet and I do not think doing so is to your children’s advantage and yours.
It seems to me you should talk in private to your lawyer and your rabbi.
No! It is never alcohol, it is usually paraffine or isoparaffine. Some **skilled and experienced** artists add a little bit of alcohol (vodka and similar) so that the liquid does not taste so bad and also it’s more spectacular, as alcohol is volatile (think of the flame on flamboyant dishes or cocktails). But it is dangerous as it increases the chance that flames go in reverse and the liquid inside the mouth might catch fire. Not advisable and absolutely not for a beginner. And of course, only for breathing fire.
I am surprised you can’t find a male to teach you in the NYC area. Perhaps one of the ladies who would be willing to teach you, can suggest a male?July 1, 2013 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm in reply to: Is there a program out there that will block off wifi on an android phone? #962881
Is the wifi AP yours? You can filter out the smartphone MAC address from there, and then you will be able to connect with your laptop but not with your smartphone. I understand that might not be a good solution if you move a lot and often use the wifi in shops, cafes and the like. But it would work if you use the laptop for work and don’t want to use the smartphone on the same wireless network, that you have the password for.
Editing the antenna parameters, or renaming the antenna configuration files, would make the wifi completely nonfunctional (unless/until they are edited again). While everything would remain completely open, most of us do not stand a chance to reverse that from memory.
You probably should also consider how to avoid accessing the internet from the cellular network. Cost is a good deterrent but not a perfect filter 🙂July 1, 2013 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm in reply to: Is there a program out there that will block off wifi on an android phone? #962878
Hi, in some phones you can disable wifi in the preferences, but in others, this is not possible. I assume the OP was not able to disable wifi in preferences (or perhaps only had “airplane mode”, which also disables cellphone reception).
I personally don’t particularly like K9. In addition, Android, but also Chrome for Windows and other platforms, will connect directly to the google websites, such as gmail. I once posted a detailed discussion, but moderators deleted it. I don’t mind rewriting what I can remember, but if it’s not suitable for the website, no problem. However it is unadvisable to rely too much on K9. Actually at this point it is unreliable to rely upon any single filter.
A smartphone is, unfortunately, a platform where the user is the product. They need to grab our personal info (you realize our phones knows which time we wake up and which time we fall asleep, whom we call and for how long, the websites we visit, even what we are thinking – we usually write that into google) and they need to push advertising and other unwanted garbage; the aim is to keep our attention focused on the device for most of our waking hours. Of course connectivity is crucial to that “business” model.
The Android (a unix-family operating system) has a filesystem which is hierarchical. The top directory is / (it is also called the root directory) and contains both files and subdirectories. For example typical subdirectories of the directory / are /etc /bin /usr and so on. In turn those contain files and sub-subdirectories. However, in many cellular phones, one can not even see the directory structure, or in other cases, the important files are read-only and can not be modified by the user.
Please be careful with modifications because it’s very possible that the phone will decide to access the internet anyway, except will do that on the cellular network (at your expense).
Please let me know more precisely what you are trying to do, and if I know how, I will tell you. Are you trying to block the web browser? Are you trying to block all connectivity via wifi? Are you wishing to keep some apps connected (such as email) and block others?
What people should do is stay at home when they feel unwell, as opposed to going to work and to social gatherings.
I respectfully ask the moderator why my, I believe, articulated comment has not been approved, while proposals of forced vaccinations as well as conspiracy-theoretical anti-vaccination tirades are published immediately.
“The problem is that there is nothing to discuss.”
“They are “true believers”, who similar to missionaries, are not interested in hearing the truth.”
if that is what you think a priori, and if you assume that I have never asked medical counsel or that I have seen a quack, I am sorry that I can’t help your narrow-mindedness. By the way you do not even know so far which vaccinations we declined.
“P.S. If you don’t vaccinate your children, I’m interested to hear why not. (Also I’d like to make sure that no one in my family has any contact with you or your children).”
“Not really. I don’t think I asked for such personal information from a complete stranger.”
Which one of the two?
“As I said before, Tetanus+ (TDAP?) & Polio are the biggies. MMR is also important, as those diseases can hurt pregnant women. After that, if you don’t want to take flu or Chicken pox vaccine (and certainly HPV), I have no Tayainos.”
Those who receive Sabin Polio should be aware that live virus is present and thus avoid contact with immunodepressed people and people not (or not yet) vaccinated for a few days after each dose. I agree with you on the rest, except for your glaring omission of arguably the most important vaccine for travelers and for people in contact with travelers: yellow fever. Polio is by now very rare even in remote countryside areas in the third world: yellow fever, which is more serious than polio, is endemic even in urban areas and due to globalization can occasionally be encountered anywhere.
Now, if you tell me you don’t ever travel outside NYC or at most you go to NJ, and that you rarely have reason to contact travelers to Asia or Africa, that is a good reason for skipping yellow fever vaccine. As you see, good reasons for declining potentially life-savings vaccinations exist. You are proof of it.
I can not agree with the point you make with regards to herd immunity. A child or an elderly or even a young person who can not be vaccinated (due to serious diseases such as cancer, or being a transplant recipient) is a person whose health and even life are threatened even by a trivial cold, for which there is no vaccination available at present. Anyone who has any cold-like symptoms should temporarily stay away from that person.
edited for inaccurate information
Mixing together very different issues such as polio, MMR and herpes vaccination (all that spiced with comments about child abuse and MBP) and singling out “the frum community” shows quite clearly what the agenda really is.
Gavra at work, if you wish to know about why we did and did not this or that choice in regards to vaccination, please write TYW so that they should post a verified confidentiality statement (I assume you are a medical doctor, else you have no business to know) and a disposable email address which you can read. I will be happy to respond.
You can buy kosher food at 2am in any town which has shops open at 2am (even the pharmacy or the gas station, if it comes to that). How much more so if one avails themselves of all the leniences you accustomed us all to.
Now, if someone wants to buy *meat* and *wine* at 2am, that is a different story. I am, however, not sure where in the Torah it is advised as necessary, or even as healthy, to do so daily or twice a day during the week. Let alone do that regularly in the middle of the night.
Would be interesting if you posted a similar discussion “The cost of having a computer”.
I actually misread your quote. Only when I saw DY’s post calling your figure ridiculous, did I realize you wrote 200K per year ie about 17K per month.June 6, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm in reply to: How can I get an evil Iranian deported from America? #957952
A heter? is he a yid?
Ask your question to the rabbi who is encouraging you to get the person deported.
Mods why was my post deleted? As there are readers who use K9 (I think a few posters mentioned using it) it seems to me they should know its weaknesses.
ZD I have hardly noticed rabbis stating it is forbidden to pay taxes to the State of Israel or to other ordinary countries, perhaps you would like to quote them to us? Even in cases it was permissible to evade such taxes if possible (USSR is an example) I do not recall it being declared forbidden to pay taxes, of course, as long as we perceive that paying taxes to the evil govt is for us advantageous. Again can you please quote if someone stated differently?
I am not sure what compulsory draft has to do with the above, though.
ZD obviously one in such a situation would have first to hire someone and study the laws, in order to see if it is possible to set up a non-taxable business or enterprise, second look into evading taxes if there is a good chance this is possible without being caught (we are not allowed to help authorities with their job and cause heartache to our families, different from what “rabbi” martin luther king was quoted above), third see if it is for us possible to live in poverty so that there is nothing to be taxed, fourth, leave.
See, we have been running since many generations, we know the drill.
I don’t hold by “rabbi” martin luther king (sorry if someone dislikes the quotes) and halacha allows us various recourses when we are allowed (sometimes obligated) to follow Torah and disregard the law of the land. We sure don’t have to “willingly” and “lovingly” turn the other cheek, as MLK’s religion is suggesting. By the way, a law which, if obeyed to the letter, violates the beliefs of a minority has a name: “religious discrimination”.
Really integral? You don’t mind that there exist heavily disabled people? I am in awe of the level you have achieved.
I am well aware there are halachot (let me stress, halachot) in regards to people who present a danger. The last time I know these questions being non-theoretical was in Europe during WW2.
Equating cremation of eichmann (which I have no idea if it was done seeking daas Torah, and quite frankly I doubt it) which has no negative connotation for their ideology (many nazis chose cremation for themselves in their will, and I do not recall eichmann protesting it during the trial) with desecration of human bodies which sometimes had to take place in order to safely eliminate evidence after a person had to be assassinated, with a hypotetical deliberate desecration of bodies, speaks for itself. Moreover, the assumption that such a step would scare the aspiring terrorists into becoming meek lambs and fear the might and strength of the Jews, also speaks for itself. What will realistically happen, everywhere in the world, we all know. And, sorry to break the bubble, terrorists are not exclusively motivated by their fantasies of young ladies in the afterlife. They are prepared to do what they do because they believe that is the right thing to do.
Public safety and order, if that is the high priority of the Israeli government, should indeed be implemented, but the statistics on violent crimes and those on vicious crime, somehow tell me that if there were miracolously a peaceful solution of the Arab problem, this would not turn the country into a paradise, would it.
Finally I am well aware of the correspondence between Rabbi Moshe Feinstein and Ronald Reagan on the subject of death penalty in USA. We do not know if nowadays Rabbi Feinstein would pasken the same way (I am sure we all remember the first death penalty trials i.e. frank coppola etc. where the legal debate was not superficial, attorneys studied the papers and the sentence was not written before the trial even started), what we do know is that at this time, multiple poskim in USA say it’s forbidden for observant Jews to be on juries when the death penalty is involved – period.
thegra: even though I am unable to see the connection between physical appearance and spiritual essence, I believe there is one. I do not believe physical appearance to be an incidental quality / property.
Also, I think the situation is more complex than how you discussed. I think your example should be expanded.
He is a Cohen and he is fit, he can duchen, but he can’t do any service in the Beit Hamikdash as there is none.
He is a Cohen but he has a minor blemish and is disqualified
3) Binyamin (and Reuven, and Daniela, and John, and Bob….)
Binyamin is a Levi, Reuven is a Yisrael, Daniela is a female, John is a convert, Bob is non jewish. They are all *forbidden* from serving in the Beit Hamikdash (I repeat: forbidden. Our problem is not that we can’t.)
4) Shimon (and …..)
Be them Cohanim or not, be them males or females, be them Jewish or not, we suppose they have ALS or similar. They *can not* serve in the Beit Hamikdash, they can’t even walk or talk or wash themselves. Let us think about it for a moment.
5) Yaakov (and ….)
These people, be them Cohanim or not, be them males or females, Yidden or goyim, have a difficult disability. They have no awareness. They can not even wonder if they would like to be the Cohen Gadol.
None of these people serve in the Beit Hamikdash. There is no practical difference.
Are we really bothered by the fact that #2, who looks fit enough to us to serve, is instead disqualified by Torah?
Personally I am very bothered by the fact there exist people like #5 whose suffering is beyond human understanding and by the fact there exist people like #4 whose suffering is instead very obvious to their friends as they are aware and thanks to computers etc. can interact with everyone else. While I do not have an answer and I think no one does, I think most people who are bothered by #2, by a G-d who could have allowed the person with a small physical problem to serve (which now is theoretical, and when Moshiach will come, we may hope that blemishes will be immediately healed) — how so much more will they be bothered by #4 and #5, especially when it is an obviously innocent person who have been suffering since birth.
Maybe Golda will prove me wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Thank you, oomis, for your flattering words, but I have not been young (much less “very young”) since a long time.
I had already read you attribute the opinions to an Israeli cousin of yours. Two questions remain: why you decided not to challenge his position (possibly you agree with him, if it weren’t for the detail you do not believe it would be a “deterrent”? am I misunderstanding your clarification?) and why you decided to post such a statement in public, in fact, presenting it as an opinion shared by a sizeable number of Jews, including – according to you – some (unnamed) rabbis.
Torah allows killing either in immediate self-defence or, under precise conditions which nowadays it’s questionable if they ever can be fulfilled even for nonjews, within the framework of death penalty. The person condamned to death, gentile or Jew, is executed immediately to minimize their suffering and then the body is treated with the respect which is owed to every human body. I happen to find it very strange that a Rabbi would state something against Torah. Stating that “Jews” would approve, much less suggest, desecrating human remains, sounds to me eerily similar to a blood libel, if I may say.
You are correct however, it is not your cousin’s original idea. Large-scale desecration of deceased Muslims enemies was pioneered by mussolini and graziani in Libya and later adopted by hitler in his north african campaign. They even made sure to hang any enemies who were still alive or who were sentenced to death, before dirtying the deceased with pig’s carcasses, because according to Muslim beliefs, strangulation or hanging prevents the soul from exiting through the throat.