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“I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.”
While I often vehemently disagree with you, I must say I appreciate you do not misrepresent or hide your outlook.
I think your question is really two questions:
-a Jew wishes to heat his kosher food in his nonjewish friend’s oven
-we wish to heat chometz in an oven which is already KLP and are trying to avoid having to kosher it all over again.
In the first situation, I would clean the oven and then do self-clean cycle or set at max heat for a while (never had a nonjew or nonobservant jew make unpleasant comments, of course I always offered to share the food), but I am aware of many leniences (even beyond what was posted). The leniences come from the difficult reality of our ancestors, who sometimes used the local baker’s oven to cook.
The second is a little bit different, because the oven is yours.
Personally, I am aware that we have to observe Pesach for eight days only and no more – that’s where beer and whisky and restaurants come handy :-))
Ver Bin Ich, I am quite sure our grandmothers and grandfathers themselves would not eat in their own kitchen. It was not easy life, I am sure they would tell us we should realize how blessed we are, not being forced to rely on certain leniences.
What is wrong with koshering properly your guest’s oven, heating kosher food for both of you, and then after you leave, the oven remains kosher at least for a while?
The wolf tale is xian censorship.
A female wolf in Latin is called “lupa”. That has nothing to do with the lady who in the original story raised the twins. If this is unclear, please look up in your dictionary “lupanar”.
“What is hung on a wall, is green, and whistles?”
“…. no idea. I give up. What is it?”
“A herring!”
“but herrings are not hanging on walls”
“This does. I hung it myself”.
“they are not green either”
“This one is, I painted it, if you saw it you’d see the green paint is still wet”.
“And how does it whistle?”
“haha it doesn’t. I added that to confuse you.”
I maintain it’s plastic, chometz, fleishig coca-cola 😀 Now better I get back to cleaning.
Oh wait! I Know the answer!!!
It is the chometz, or should I say, garbage, we are trying to clean up.
(For #1 I would say, it is not living, even though it sure looks like it does. And, #4, some make decoration out of it, dough with lots of salt which does not spoil, becomes hard and can be painted)
“simply untrue”
The pain caused to human beings is not simply untrue and can not be waved off. This applies to everyone, but most especially to the sincere converts who suffer untold rejection and pain. Some of those people had no intent to become Jewish and their “conversion” is worthless, but many did, even among those who did not commit fully to an observant lifestyle. Their status’ questioning – if not outright rejection – of course pushed them further away from the little observance they had. It takes lots of time and effort to address each individual case, for those few who in the meantime had adopted a very religious lifestyle and seek to be recognized by a widely accepted bet din. What about the rest?
“simply untrue”
The pain caused to human beings is not simply untrue and can not be waved off. This applies to everyone, but most especially to the sincere converts who suffer untold rejection and pain. Some of those people had no intent to become Jewish and their “conversion” is worthless, but most did, even among those who did not commit fully to an observant lifestyle. Their status’ questioning – if not outright rejection – of course pushed them further away from the little observance they had. It takes lots of time and effort to address each individual case, for those few who in the meantime had adopted a very religious lifestyle and seek recognition by a widely accepted bet din. What about the rest?
I don’t comprehend the churban in Europe. I suppose very few people do, if any. You seem convinced that an already established Zionist country would have averted the decree, I do not share the same certainty.
She does not really say, she keeps saying “ummm…” “no one…” “not at this time…” (?!) At a point she talks to someone else in the room (not clear whom) and asks to get someone (inintelligible, we may infer some sort of supervisor, but this is pure speculation) and says something about the dispatcher’s insistance stressing her.
No word about a DNR and not even about informal statements from the patient. Also, the fire dept have confirmed there was no DNR on file with them.
My opinion (I know Health will grill me for speaking of situations I don’t know, and in this case, he would be right) is that the employee, after being treated like sub-garbage for who knows how long, was beyond humanity, beyond common sense, even beyond self-interest and self-protection, she was like a broken robot blabbing nonsense (“not at this time”?!) I don’t condone her at all (and I am aware this is what sometimes people do to themselves in order to cope with something their moral conscience find repulsive e.g. please talk to Africans who have been through wars) but still, we have heard how an employee (BTW, somehow professionally qualified in health care) has been brought to that point.
ifti99 live without electricity? in a mud hut? And since when you care so much for my retirement benefits? You don’t even care for fellow Jews in your own country. So please don’t worry for me, we try to be decent to people be them jewish or not, but if someone set out and R”L arranges a pogrom, I doubt we’d die because only people with huge merits die like that, but if that R”L happened, that would be because for reasons we can’t understand it was so decreed, not because this or that rasha decided to. On the other hand, we am uninterested in risking our life for senseless wars, especially now that the Medinat is showing its true colours: its purpose is not, as some naively told us, to protect and support Torah in EY, but it is to lure people into assimilation. Good luck to the mighty Medinat and to its brave fighters and to its vibrant economy. I am curious ifti99, is it true what Health says, that you don’t believe in Moshiach?
masmid, not sure if you noticed our gedolim took their time for commenting on this issue and did not think this is bitul zman. If you did not notice, thank you for noticing it now.
Zahavasdad
it is obvious there are fundamental disagreements. True, I think no one should support a person who signs or stamp an official paperwork (even one with no particular significance attached, say, a school exam? a university commission?) while being elsewhere – thus opening the door to avoidable problems in the future. Someone is very busy? We understand it. The schedule can’t accommodate an event even though it was arranged a long time ago? too bad, candidates will be rescheduled. But could you imagine your degree being questioned because those who signed it were somewhere else that day? Hey, that’s nothing, compared to a giyur. And does not affect anyone’s children.
But there is no question the issue is much deeper than that. There is no question that our disagreements are irreconciliable.
However, may I remark you write “Perhaps if more civility and respect had occured the current result would never have happend and Bayit HaYudi would have teamed up with Shas and UTJ and not Yesh Atid”. Then I have to point out to you that Shas and UTJ are not “The Haredim”. They are a fraction of a fraction of haredim: are those who both chose to live in EY and hold an Israeli passport, and to participate in elections. Many Israeli haredim do not vote at all, and of course, other haredim do not live in EY and have no intention of making aliyah anytime before Moshiach shows up. We are not even talking of those who think the Medinat to be a misfortune. The fact that Shas and UTJ have been pushed to their current position is a huge change with respect to the past.
One of the reasons I stay away from Israel is that I can discuss with people like you, debate, disagree, but keep basic respect and basic friendship, which I try to do with all human beings that life brings me to meet, jewish or not. What breaks basic respect and basic friendship is when my life starts being affected: if my son gets a draft notice, then disagreements can no longer be ignored, I have to fight. Moreover, while I can expect having to deal with a draft in other countries (most have gotten rid of draft now, but 40 years ago, one conceivably would have had to deal with it and find some way out), in EY it is hard to ignore it’s my own brother who is trying to mold and assimilate our children.
I can’t understand why the arrangements the Arabs enjoy can’t be extended to all citizens of the state. Those who do want to serve, kol hakavod + money + benefits, and if they are not enough, let us increase such benefits. Those who qualify for elite units and receive appropriate security clearance (some Muslim Arabs did too) kol ha kavod and lots of money and benefits, as of course, they are seriously risking their life and this has to be rewarded, or else, no sane person will enroll. Everyone else, let them find a profession they are satisfied with, whatever that is, Torah or secular, and contribute to society. You want to cut down the pittance of support which is given to some? I don’t object. That’s it, those who want to study Torah will do, those who enroll in a secular university will be supported by the taxpayer but I would accept that. Why is that not enough, why nothing short of assimilation and disappearance of the old ghetto jews will do? I can’t understand.
“What is your point? That we don’t need soldiers or workers? Are you really serious?”
Yes, of course I believe in 200 years or less we will need no soldiers and no workers, no one will have to sweat their bread, let alone to spill their blood. You don’t believe that? Actually, even our nonreligious and nonjewish fellow human beings believe that (you can e.g. google “singularity”). For the time being, and keeping in mind that only a negligible fraction of the current world riches derive from actual sweat in the field or in the workshop (which is what brought down economies such as ussr a couple of decades ago, while debt-based economies such as Japan are thriving), there are more than enough volunteers for both roles, whether among nonjews (properly paid for their effort) and among jewish people.
“Again, do you really think the country would be better off if every able bodied male just learned full time?”
Yes of course. You don’t? See above. If you have nostalgia of the days it was necessary to tend to cows and plough the fields, it means you never actually did it. Oh, in the evening, people were dead tired, yet they studied.
“Israel’s economy is amazingly vibrant.”
Fantastic! I congratulate you.
“How do you contribute to it?”
AHA! There you go. Why should I contribute to it? I do not have nor want an Israeli passport. So why should I contribute? Why am I supposed to consider the medinat “my homeland”? Why should I sweat it if it disappears, as other entities have done?
How true. It is a shame to call druckman a clown. One of the two is a honest and skilled worker who brings smiles to people, be that on the street, at the circus, or R”L in the cancer ward. The other is a deceptive ignoramus that creates countless heartaches for his “converts” and their descendants for generations to come.
If he is a gadol in the religious zionist world, good luck to the religious zionist world.
ROFL did you see the photo in the cow costume? 😀
PS it’s a hoax from a satirical website, known for other hilarious “news stories” (you may remember the one about the man who was exasperated by Farmville requests from his wife, finally couldn’t take any more and murdered her, and was acquitted)
OK ifti99 but that will now not be a “danger” any longer, due to the fantastic govt that was somehow put together. Now what will be next? Soldiers are unwanted in modern warfare, work hours are superfluous in our highly automated production lines. However these hours have to be paid – and not a pittance, either. Yet they will not increase productivity or GDP. Where do you plan to obtain the resources to finance all of this? The economy is already as squeezed as conceivably possible, increasing taxation might even decrease revenue (start-ups will move elsewhere). Social expenses have already been cut. Foreign investors will not rush to invest, especially if social turmoil increases. Please explain to us your plan.
no one suggested iridium?
Also, did you consider a serious portable battery. That one needs to stay in an inside pocket of your jacket when you are skiing. Or snowboarding. Have fun.
PS I just noticed the change of username to popa_bas_abba …. WHAT?
mdd you are correct that many countries deny conscience objection to (volunteer) soldiers, who either are opposed to a particular war (but have no issue with wars in general or with the use of military force) or who changed their mind during service (in this second case, however, there is usually some way-out). However charedim are not in this situation. The very fact observant Jews do not carry a weapon on Shabbat, because it is not considered a decoration and is not considered to enhance the kavod of those who carry it, has historically been good enough for a commission, for those countries who have / had one.
Not every conscience objector accepts civil service. A notable and well-known exception are the j witnesses, which due to their missionary activity, can be found in just about every country (including the Medinat). And of course it is not demanded from Arab citizens (Muslim or Xian) that they waste months and years in civil service. Can you explain us why so?
PS I am surprised you don’t know Paris is in Texas, there was even a movie about that 🙂
Exactly mdd! No different than those who boasted until the previous week “We will not abandon Sinai, where Torah was given…. Jewish investments will be protected….” If Israel cared about people who live beyond the Green Line, those areas (except for the small portion which is occupied for strictly strategical reasons and earmarked for future return to foreign countries) would have been annexed according to international law, a long, long time ago. They were not annexed and will not be annexed because when it is convenient to do so, people who relied upon the politicians’ electoral promises will be thrown under the bus. And, exactly like those who lost assets and investments in the Sinai pull-out, any “compensation” negotiated with US, UN, or anyone else, will be diverted elsewhere.
Anyway. Please don’t embarrass yourself any further. You can look up ebco-beoc the website of the European Bureau for Conscientious Objection. Austria recognizes conscience objection since 1955. Greece did have compulstory drafts in the days of the colonels’ regime, which lead Greek young men to seek and obtain political asylum elsewhere in Europe (and attend university for free); since 1997 Greece also admits conscience objection. Russian Federation recognizes conscience objection since 1993 (no surprise of course, as USSR pioneered that sort of legislation).
“The Israelis do not go to Washington to shnorr and then refuse doing favors and mevaze the donors. See the difference?”
you mean such as (Arutz Sheva report) Bennett referring to President Obama “like spitting in Israel’s face – no less than that”?
I would not be surprised to see the whole country collapse.
No, the company covered their behind long ago. You can’t expect Brookdale (I had not noticed it was them, I had the impression it was some small company operating one or two homes) to be this foolish. Their guidelines no doubt stated that in an emergency, employees should call 911 and wait with the resident. Gamanit heard that on CBS (see above) but it is quite obvious, given that Brookdale are no amateurs. These guidelines, when brought to the courtroom or to the case study at the next medical ethical conference, do not mean one should stand by, but rather, administering help as appropriate. We are well aware the employee might have been told by her supervisor – or more likely, lead into believing – that she should do absolutely nothing. This was not official policy and not in writing. Chances are it was not even actually said (recording devices being cheap and easily available). I expect instead that the paragraph “in the event of an emergency” was next to the blurb about the facility being not licensed to offer medical care and liability for employees who do so (including scary remark such as “will lead to immediate termination”). Of course the employee is a scapegoat, but she made her bed and has not yet realized how uncomfortable it’ll be to sleep in it.
In addition, she can hardly blame the facility and their rules, because throughout these long minutes she did not ask her supervisor, much less management, for clarification of guidelines. A supervisor would have instructed the employee to start CPR on this particular patient. Yes, had she involved a supervisor, the employee might have created a few problems for herself (especially if she is incapable of driving home the point that investors and brandname assets must be protected and we can’t allow media to jump on this sort of stories). But nothing in comparison to her situation now.
Now there is a mess, and the employee still thinks she can get away with it, because that’s what always happened in the last X years she worked at this job, and moreover, the family of the deceased are supporting her, and the deceased’s daughter is a nurse. She does not realize the piling up of mistakes upon mistakes, nor the seriousness of her situation; she probably feels relieved that “elder abuse” charges were dismissed (they were blatantly absurd of course), she probably was pleasantly surprised by the non-confrontational and sympathetic attitude of police and prosecutors, and I expect she is not getting much of a legal counsel at this time. And yes, according to a statement from the family, a DNR document now surfaced, after the local fire dept confirmed there was no DNR on file – the silence of Brookdale speaks volumes. There is also a document, signed by the deceased’s personal physician, indicating stroke as the cause of death.
This incident might or might not spark a change in legislation requirements for assisted living communities. It might or might not spark an extension of failure to care, unprofessional conduct etc. It might or might not spark a greater uniformity of regulations nationwide (see e.g. RN disciplinary codes in California vs Tennessee). In any event I expect future guidelines of Brookdale’s facilities to address in more detail the issue of assistance while waiting for EMS (I expect employees to be briefed there is no change in policy, only in wording). Other similar providers are already doing so. As for Brookdale “We are conducting a company-wide review of our policies involving emergency medical care across all of our communities.” Also, Brookdale have put the employee on leave and are now promising a “thorough internal review of this matter”.
In the meantime, from Brookdale’s statement to the media.
“This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents”.
1. is it living? Nope
2. is it edible? Yup (most of it ;))
3. are there a lot of different types of this thing? Yup
4. is it used as a decoration? Nope
5. does it grow from the ground? Nope
6. can it swim? Nope
7. Is it colorful? Nope
8. Is it natural? Nope
Coca-cola? 🙂
(with regards to #2 I suppose you don’t hold by those who permit Diet Coke for Pesach)
Excuse me Jason, as no doubt you know, before Albino Luciani, no one had chosen a new papal name in over a thousand year. In 1978, when the senior cardinal announced “Habemus Papam” and plenty of TVs broadcast it live, he very clearly stated about Luciani “qui sibi nomen imposuit Johannis Pauli Primi” (who decreed for himself the name of John Paul the First).
I wonder if you were perhaps mislead by the absence of this piece of info on Wikipedia, but if you scroll down, you will see a photo of his tombstone which has in large capital letters JOHANNES PAULUS I PP. Additionally you don’t seem to have noticed that Wojtyla was announced (live on TV worldwide) as Johannis Pauli: at that time I was explained (by the same catholic friends of mine who now express surprise at the change in ceremonial) that the numeral is omitted if the former pope bore the same name.
PS my respects, Popa. I would not have guessed he does not watch TV.
yytz get off your high horse, either he is a troll or he is genuine, if he is genuine and you painted the religious jewish world as a bunch of people who despise the church calling it “both heresy and idolatry” (while according to reputable opinions, for nonjews it is neither), and yet hypocritically support them because of the Vatican’s battles against euthanasia and gay marriage, the one lacking derech eretz (@JasonX: proper manners) and seichel (@JasonX: wit, common sense) is not Popa.
@JasonX there is no central authority for Judaism, as I am sure you already know. Of course as you already know, this is the internet and everything you read on the internet should be taken with a grain – or a pinch – of salt. I am sure you have Jewish friends and neighbours in real life and I am equally sure none of them ever harassed or insulted you and your religion. We treasure relations with other human beings, including Catholics, and we rejoice that in the last 50 years, friendship and mutual respect has reached unprecedented levels. Enjoy your weekend.
What a situation.
How old are you and your brother? Are there other relatives or friends who can help? Even going away for a few days and getting a break can be very helpful.
Always keep in mind that this is not normal, and that it’s not a curse you are bound to repeat, you and your brother will no doubt be wonderful spouses and parents and this experience will make you even more sensitive, although, I realize, it will be a scar that does not go away. Your mother must be suffering a lot, try to have compassion if you can, may we never be in her shoes.
We wish him well on his work, and many Jewish authorities already congratulated him and expressed their respect and friendship.
Are you a catholic? I am also curious. I have read on newspapers the proper way to address him is pope Francis and not “Francis the First”. Is there a reason for that?
We are taught every righteous person, jewish or not, will receive their reward. There is no reason to become a Jew, we wish happiness and fulfillment to every human being. Jewish religious authorities already expressed their respect and friendship towards the new pontiff of the catholic church, and we wish him well in his work.
Health we have to wait and see how the story develops. This is what I heard today: in regards to the criminal investigation opened immediately after the events, elder abuse charges have been dismissed; the family physician is quoted attributing death to an ictus, not to a heart attack (I do not know what the hospital paperwork says); the family (management is silent about that) states there is a DNR and was on file at the home; the attitude of the property changed, and they issued a statement shortly after the family did, see below; journalists making phone calls to similar facilities receive two sort of answers, a few facilities state “Yes we do offer CPR with trained personnel on-site” the others declare “We do not offer CPR services and our staff in an emergency calls 911 and then they do what they feel comfortable and capable doing, but NO, we have no regulations barring our staffers from doing CPR or from following EMT instructions”. Brookdale corporation owns and operate hundreds of similar facilities nationwide. Stocks are up BTW! Of course! the one and only monster is the nurse, now lawyers and PR have got to get busy, so that no long-term damage to the brandname should occur.
Here a quote from AP
“Brookdale Senior Living, which owns the facility, initially said its employee acted correctly by waiting until emergency personnel arrived. But late Tuesday, it issued a new statement saying the employee had misinterpreted the company’s guidelines and was on voluntary leave while the case is investigated, the Associated Press reported.”
As I knew all along! The employee “misinterpreted” the written guidelines. And now is on “voluntary” leave (unpaid?)
As for her actions being immoral, I stated already I imagine the unnamed employee is a nonjew and as long as she does not murder anyone, she is fine. As for those actions being illegal, it will be determined elsewhere, I would not be pleased to be in her position, though. As for the prospects of her keeping her job, which supposedly was the reason she refused to perform a CPR, we will see.
Also, ubiquitin, what does it mean “the facility’s policy”. What happens if the person who has trouble breathing is not a resident, but is the resident’s sister who came to have lunch with her. Or the delivery man. Or someone from the staff.
That I don’t know because it depends on California law. Is it allowed for someone to write such a clause and for parties to sign it? in fact, not merely stating they will not perform CPR (suppose a mobility impaired dry cleaner, of course they will not perform CPR no matter what) but, basically, that they will, or might, hinder efforts. If the clause is not legally allowed, which I strongly suspect (much more so in a setting such as a living facility which has a disproportion between the contractual power of the average resident and the institution’s, so, even much milder agreements are rejected all the time as unconscionable clauses) our contracts and signatures are not worth the piece of paper that got wasted.
Health true, she does not have a legal requirement (an obligation in criminal law) to listen to instructions from EMT services in California, but if it goes to a hearing, she might lose her licence if she is a RN or receive other sanctions. A medical professional and even a medical student is supposed to get involved whenever no better-qualified professional is on the scene. And she can not argue she felt that resuscitation was not the gold standard of care for that particular patient, she never said so in the call. Also, EMT judged CPR to be gold standard care for the patient, even though a number of minutes had elapsed, and I doubt there was a medical doctor on the EMT crew, so, I would think they strictly followed protocols, EBM and whatnot.
Torah? I am sorry, this is not the basis of the law of the land – we wish! In countries with different legal systems from anglosaxon common law, even assisting a wounded animal may be compulsory. Yes, I think it’s a bestiality. But still, it’s good to be aware of the laws and don’t get in trouble unnecessarily.
In regard to halacha, she is a nonjew I think, she did not murder, I don’t think she stole in an enforceable way either, so I think she is not deserving of any punishment.
Health, maybe I am wrong, but I believe that stating no one else was around, won’t hold, because in such a facility, many people are usually around (including the seniors themselves), and also because she did not reply the dispatcher that “no one else is around” but rather kept mentioning the policy (imagine this recording played over and over to a jury, and also consider the fact that her voice sounds cold).
Resuscitation amounts to assault if a DNR exists: EMT personnel would have taken her vital signs and waited a bit. Even if there is no DNR but it’s a senior person and we start resuscitation after 7+min, it can be argued that CPR should not be attempted at all or should only be attempted for a short period; instead they kept working on her until she could be transported to hospital, somehow alive. Again, if a DNR existed, those who pull such a trick don’t get away with it, not anywhere but most certainly not in California. So the nurse has now to deny she was aware a DNR existed, even if one is now produced (would not be surprised). Glad I am not in her shoes.
2cents there are situations in which medical professionals have not offered “futile” resuscitation without living wills of any sort and I know some of those cases went to litigation and the medical professionals won. If the prospects are bleak, and if nowhere did the patient express they want to try everything until the very end, one can defend their actions in court. But if resuscitation is appropriate at +7 it surely was appropriate at +3 and earlier. Everyone knows that (especially given that the dispatcher is saying so right now) and someone with training knows that even better.
ubiquitin I am not sure if #2 is correct within California legal framework. I believe it isn’t. The facility may not offer CPR trained personnel on site, nor does the dry cleaner, but still if we R”L get sick at the dry cleaner, and they call 911, they are expected to follow instructions, even though they are unqualified.
Point #3 will not hold water. They may well have a policy not to offer care and to call 911, but then she was supposed to follow the dispatcher’s instructions. Her refusal to do so, her refusal to ask someone else, and her admissions she has medical training and she is well aware what her decisions is going to cause (very naive, because she now can’t even claim she was feeling bad, was in confusion, was in shock) might be going to give her a few headaches. She is not criminally liable (this might even lead to a legislation change) but she might get other sort of troubles. I think this person, who does not seem the sharpest tool in the box, might follow the “advice” of the managers who are scapegoating her, and try to suggest there was some sort DNR in place, but (1) law does not admit “implicit DNR” and (2) she did not say a word to the EMS about it.
Yes, I agree that there are situations in which CPR is not wished for (and that’s what DNR is for) and that there are situations in which it is futile and even if no DNR is available (unless the patient had requested “try resuscitation no matter what”) a medical professional is justified in withholding it.
However.
– The patient collapsed and we know the golden window is small, we should get CPR started in 3-5 min if the patient is to benefit.
– The patient is not alone, and the person who sees this (who, incidentally, is not a complete layperson) determines 911 should be called
– 911 operator dispatches a vehicle and EMTs and instructs the caller to perform CPR
– The caller refuses to do so; she admits being trained in CPR and realizing the patient might die, but says it’s against policies; the operator remarks that she would not be liable in following EMS directives; the caller refuses and also refuses to ask another employee or non employee (the operator even suggests asking another senior, I think) to get the phone and perform CPR as instructed; in the meantime the lady is in the throes of death, I imagine on the floor where she collapsed, and if she still is conscious, she can hear this telephone call
– After, if I recall correctly, 7 minutes (that’s about as quick as it gets, but still an eternity) EMS ambulance arrives
– The employee does not tell the EMS personnel to hold off and that the patient has a DNR, handing the paperwork out to them and remarking they would be criminally liable if they attempt resuscitation (thus, it can be inferred such a DNR did not exist)
– EMS start torturing hopelessly the old lady (after seven minutes!) breaking ribs and whatever else they deem necessary, then they decide she is “stable” enough for hospital transfer (it must have taken pretty invasive measures to stabilize her enough)
– The EMS discharge the old lady to the care of a local hospital, where, shortly after admission, she is pronounced dead.
I would not want to be in front of court (secular court) and have to explain my position. Even a jury which is sympathetic towards the attitude “when my time comes, I wish to go gently” will not help: what is the justification for the medically desperate steps of attempting resuscitation, with extremely bleak chances, after 7min? Also, there are plenty of people who are disgustingly hypocrites and won’t pass up the chance to appear as “defenders of the weak”. The employee is the weakest link and I expect she will regret her actions. Again while I think what she did was utterly despicable, I protest painting such people as monsters. If anything, she was naive. A rasha would have faked starting CPR when noticing the dispatcher was getting all worked up. An ordinary person would have started CPR and when called in the office, would have told the manager to listen to the recording and imagine it with a different ending – going viral – 99.99% of EMT dispatcher are “understanding”, I handled this incident as well as I could – the manager would have agreed. Someone outside the ordinary might have looked for another job outside of geriatry. I do not consider her remotely a tzadeket, but she is no monster and no murderer, she is someone who found herself in a difficult situation, handled it badly, got the spotlights and might get burned well beyond her responsibility.
Even if it is the facility’s policy to call EMT always, she will have to explain why she did not follow the dispatcher’s instructions. There is only one good reason not to: a DNR form in her hands. She did not have one, nor did she showed it to the EMT when they arrived 7min later. I understand they aggressively attempted resuscitation and brought her to a local hospital, only in the hospital the lady was declared dead. Also, now the employee is the villain, won’t be easy for her to defend her good faith and good name.
It is my policy not to do CPR either. This is also our cleaning lady’s policy. I am sure most shops do not make provision for offering CPR to customers who should R”L have trouble breathing. Yet, we would try our best, if no medical professional is on the scene. Even if we are willing to admit someone has a reason to stand by and do nothing (maybe they are afraid of having problems on the job, maybe they are indeed unable, such as a person on a wheelchair) I don’t see any justification for not asking if anyone else is willing to do. If this nurse is brought to court, she will be ripped in pieces, because it can be argued (even moreso because of her medical training) she recognized CPR would be beneficial to the patient and called EMT. If there is DNR or something equivalent, resuscitation amounts to assault; but this is not what happened.
I am in favour of DNR for those nonobservant/nonjews who do not wish to be resuscitated or, if they are no longer capable of making decisions, whose life outlook suggests that’s what they would want under the circumstances, and of course, for frum people who discussed the details with a posek. I am not in favour of DNR pushed upon, or forced unto, people whose wish is to hold on to life.
DNR means we choose not to resuscitate a patient who coded and we do not prepare to implement resuscitation on a patient who we think is about to code, we call their relatives instead, so that they are aware that their loved one is likely to pass soon – people need to make arrangements, take leave from work, book tickets, someone may wish to pray, someone else may wish to pick up their children from school and talk to them before getting caught in everything that has to be done and piles up. DNR means we help the patient on a bed, which is more comfortable and more dignified if they still are somewhat conscious, not on the floor which instead is the proper place for resuscitation manouvers. DNR means we decide resuscitation is not a medical option we want to avail ourselves of. It means nothing more but also nothing less.
Did you listen to the call? Everyone knows that medical personnel is hardened and does not get emotionally involved in death, that’s how they manage to be professionals. But the call is beyond that. Also, I think (correct me if I am wrong) that the emt crew, when they arrived, aggressively started resuscitation (unsuccessfully). Am I the only one who is disturbed by this?
Health I am afraid all I know about nursing homes and geriatry, has been learned the hard way. The worst part for me is when someone makes decisions according to “advice” and one can at most suggest they should get a second opinion, and then one has to be silent and watch impotently. Incidentally, advice could be to withhold reasonable treatment or to push unreasonable treatment, it can be either way, unfortunately the variable is the amount the insurers will pay the institution for the treatment, and the overhead compared to actual costs.
There is no question everyone involved is guilty, the govt, the insurance companies, the hospital management, the committees who write down protocols of care. And there is no question the employee is much less guilty than any of those. But I can not agree with your conclusion that the employee is innocent. I know it is hard to give up a secure job. But when one is earning parnassa in a way they feel is not permissible, or in any event, they are not proud of, people have a choice. I found myself in a difficult situation (no human life involved), a perfectly legal, but very questionable to me, mode of operation – I took the confrontational path. I was not fired nor demoted and it did not go to court – obviously when the contract expired, that was it. It was very helpful and strengthening for me to know that, about two years earlier, a young man (a nonjew) had quit over the issue, his girlfriend immediately dumped him (they were about to marry), no one from his birth family was supportive. He had no money, no home, highly qualified with no way of finding another job, he had to make a living with small jobs here and there. It was much harder for him and yet he did not think twice. Time has passed and people willing to compromise have been found, but you know what? Some of them quit. Some others became scapegoats. Of course! Do you think President Obama or the manager of the clinic would support the employee? Do you think they will take responsibility for the protocol, Obama for having legislated in a way that calls for such protocols, the manager for having actually signed it? Of course not! How they react depends on how much it goes virally, how incensed public opinion is or pretends to be, and whether headlines and primetime broadcasts of the recording die down quickly enough for them to remain silent without damage to their public image. If it’s called for, they will go on TV with high screams, they will blame her and her only, and might even call for exemplary punishment.
If you’re flying within a few days, it’s not too bad to be wide awake at 2.30 am local time, it’ll help you with jetlag.
NYC is expensive, and is also not necessarily the most welcoming place (that is a huge understatement). I do see your point, you need a shidduch, you are out of the ordinary, you need a large community to find one.
On the other hand, it is very hard to imagine how you would get by comfortably. And you’ve had more than enough stress lately.
You are 19 if I recall well? I was not supporting myself at 19, although I was not a dead weight either. The $400 per month is what your family is willing to contribute, or would you have to earn those? As well as earning more money for food and other basic expenses?
Also, I have to say, if you are thirsty and feel like having a beer – it’s a mitzva to destroy chometz – this is forbidden. On the other hand, if you sign something, or if you make the tiniest mistake of all sort, driving accident etc. the law will hit you with full force, and if you can’t afford good legal defense, the law will hit you even harder – this has happened to *victims* of a scam, to people unaware of some law, all sort of innocent people who find themselves in a nightmare. It is not easy to be an adult like that, in a city like NY, alone.
Do you have any relative in the area? Can your rabbi suggest someone or something? Also, can the rabbi address the problem of your “debt” and negotiate with those people? I think he should be negotiating some money for you to get a fresh start, too. And I think this should be a priority and you should mention it every time you call.
Did you consider NJ at least temporarily? There, homes are actually big enough for people to wish for a cleaning person. I think you might also consider offering help right now, before Pesach, and get some extra money – not everyone gets caught in last-minute cleaning but some do, and are very happy to find help and pay for it. Try to give references, offer to show your passport to be copied and the like, because there are many dishonest “cleaners” who clean up the house instead of the dirt.
Be Hatzlacha
I agree with GAW at least on the first two points, actually, in regards to #2 I would support getting rid of all strings and obligations along with funding and reduce taxation proportionally: Jews always have been literate throughout history and even when life was very difficult, we sure can trust Jewish families of all persuasions to educate their children, can’t we?
I am not sure about #3 because it seems to me Israel is a geographically small country, perhaps you can explain why you suggested it?
The main problem I see with this plan is that it won’t be implemented 🙁
OK rebdoniel it’s good to know where you stand, and I am sure you know women who are on such an exalted level in our days, good for you. Back to the issue, can you please explain why cooking kitniyot in the home is a problem for Askhenazim who wish to eat (something else) in the Sefaradi’s home?
Can you also explain what is the problem for a Sefaradi to eat something cooked by a Gentile employee of an observant Jew? I had never heard this from any of the Sefardi rabbis and minhagim I met so far in my life. I learned a Sefardi must be careful eating in a restaurant which is owned and operated by nonjews and supervised by a Jew, if the role of Jews in actual cooking of food fit to be served at the king’s table with bread and unfit for being eaten raw, is minimal, marginal, or is just lighting the oven; in this case the Sefardi can’t eat normally such food, but either he orders something else, or should talk to management and ask to use the kitchen. But if the nonjew is an employee of observant Jews? Where is the problem? I was puzzled but then I thought I should look up Rabbi Abadi’s website. Click on halacha and then food of a nonjew.
“If a Jew lights the oven, it would be permitted for Ashkenazim; but Sephardim cannot eat that food except when the Non-Jew is an employee at the house or restaurant of a Jew.”
Do you hold differently from Rabbi Abadi on this one?
Hi, Health, apologies for late reply. No law student nor lawyer, funny you should say that, my father used to think I have a talent for that, he insisted I should become one. I don’t. He introduced me to real lawyers since I was a child, which made me evident the difference between my brain and theirs! I chose a completely different path, not in the medical profession either.
I do not think the lady had Alzheimer because she was living in a low-care setting. The very fact that an employee called 911 suggests there is no MD on duty on the site. It also suggests the facility does not routinely asks patients and family to either sign a DNR or express their wish to be resuscitated: with a DNR, assuming 911 is called (it is absurd as you said already, but it may well be called, just to cover their backs and document everything independently), the recording would have been different, with the nurse stating that the patient has a DNR and the document is in her hands and will be shown to EMT upon their arrival.
I agree with you about sanctioning those who, for no reason at all, withhold help. How would you write such a law? It is not easy to implement in practice. Perhaps you remember the debate a few years ago in California.
If we are aware that someone’s children have signed a DNR which does not faithfully represent the person’s wishes, but rather the family’s wishes, we know what theoretically we have to do – according to the law of the land. We have to let authorities know (right now, not when the person is in arrest). Secular law is far from perfect but it has provisions for these situations. If the patient is fully of sound mind, he/she will state or write down his wishes for medical care and EOL in front of the required witnesses; otherwise the court will appoint a guardian who will be in charge of deciding, after having consulted the family and the rabbi or whoever else the patient indicates he trusts. Most ignore this law despite it being there. Is it Obama’s fault too?
I would not call the nurse nor the hypotetical person in Health’s examples “un-human”, but one can not blame their own decisions on someone else always. Choices usually come at a price.
The policy in USA (and most countries) is that once you call EMS, they take over the care, and one can not cancel a call (i.e. change their mind about no longer having a desire for assistance). So the nurse would have been protected: not only by the “samaritan” provision but also by the fact she would have been “following orders”. She could have argued that she called 911 according to protocol and afterwards they directed her to do so-and-so, which EMS can do even in a doctor’s office (let alone in an assisted living facility), until care is handed over to the emergency dept of a hospital.
I understand, as I have already written, the next available pretext would likely have been used to let her go.
In regards to “duty to act”, California sought to introduce that in the legislation, even for laypeople. This was in response to public opinion pressure, something terrible happened and was in the news for many weeks. It was not done because legal experts advised it would have been very difficult to enforce and would have punished only *unlucky* people among those who couldn’t care less about a fellow human’s life.
If some aggressive lawyers’ office contacts the deceased’s family and they smell the money and sue the nurse for refusing to follow the dispatcher’s orders, if this starts to get too many headlines and the assisted living facility fires her claiming she damaged their public image, it will not be me who sheds tears.
Please elucidate what is exactly the Chillul Hashem. As everyone understand (chilonim included) not everyone is born to be an accountant or to work a steady job, in fact some people like to be musicians or artists, on the average they don’t become rich (only a few make handsome money to support themselves and their families), they use benefits that law provides, and of course no one would attempt to force them into a different career path, even demeaning them is unheard of since the early days of Breznev………..
If there were robots which take care of every task human beings need, if all factories and vehicles were completely automated, if there were peace and friendship (quot. Brezhnev) with Arabs and everyone else, abundant money and nothing lacking for anyone on earth, still there would be complaints. Perhaps people would try to stir up “compassion” for the “exploited” machines and found a golem rights society. The real issue is one and only one: some people can’t stand the very existence of observant Jews.
Everyone knows that pious ladies whose father had taught them to read Hebrew would put on Tefillin until a few centuries ago. In the Sefaradi world and in isolated communities one may have found them until relatively recently (a couple of centuries? three?) Shall we deduce from it that the ladies of the wall are just fine and following a mesora R”L? When Moshiach comes, he will give us detailed instructions, for the time being we are taught we follow our fathers, not our grand-grand-grand-grandfathers.
I still do not understand why kitniyot make any difference to a religious Askhenazi who is invited in the home of a religious Sefaradi.
DaasYochid: do I remember correctly about Moshiach doing exactly that, pasken according to Ben Shammai? Yet again, until he shows up, we are not concerned.
“Good Samaritan” laws do not refer to people performing CPR or other emergency measures as part of their job, there are other laws that regulate that, they have to do with passers-by and with immediate life danger situations. They usually also protect medical professionals who assist while off-duty and without expectance of compensation, but I can’t recall California cases that went to court (I recall one in Texas with a doctor assisting in childbirth and being sued for negligency, he won the case)
California Health and Safety Code Section 1799.102
Legal Research Home > California Laws > Health and Safety Code > California Health and Safety Code Section 1799.102
1799.102. (a) No person who in good faith, and not for
compensation, renders emergency medical or nonmedical care at the
scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting
from any act or omission. The scene of an emergency shall not
include emergency departments and other places where medical care is
usually offered. This subdivision applies only to the medical, law
enforcement, and emergency personnel specified in this chapter.
(b) (1) It is the intent of the Legislature to encourage other
individuals to volunteer, without compensation, to assist others in
need during an emergency, while ensuring that those volunteers who
provide care or assistance act responsibly.
(2) Except for those persons specified in subdivision (a), no
person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency
medical or nonmedical care or assistance at the scene of an
emergency shall be liable for civil damages resulting from any act or
omission other than an act or omission constituting gross negligence
or willful or wanton misconduct. The scene of an emergency shall not
include emergency departments and other places where medical care is
usually offered. This subdivision shall not be construed to alter
existing protections from liability for licensed medical or other
personnel specified in subdivision (a) or any other law.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to change any
existing legal duties or obligations, nor does anything in this
section in any way affect the provisions in Section 1714.5 of the
Civil Code, as proposed to be amended by Senate Bill 39 of the
2009-10 Regular Session of the Legislature.
(d) The amendments to this section made by the act adding
subdivisions (b) and (c) shall apply exclusively to any legal action
filed on or after the effective date of that act.
The nurse would have been covered by Good Samaritan laws in regard to not being liable for damages of all sorts that arise from her intervention and had she been fired, she could have sued and likely won, but realistically, she would not have been fired at all in connection to the incident, but rather, she would have been let go with some pretext in a few weeks. Which would have been impossible to challenge and also one’s name becomes “known” and one is not offered work, and proving discrimination is next to impossible. Had she done CPR against the employer’s protocol, perhaps she was better off resigning and giving interviews to the media, which would have had good chances to land her a job at a facility with different policies – but likely, not close to home.
I am aware that we would not be required to jeopardize our job, but still it is despicable. A normal person would at the very least feel bad about it. Now let me ask you a question: suppose it hadn’t been a human, suppose it had been a dog. Suppose the dog had choked on something and a trained person can easily get the dog out of trouble; instead the trained person calls a veterinary hospital requesting they send someone, and refuses to help the dog in any way, refuses even to ask a passer-by to help. Can you imagine the outrage? The press? The TV? But let us put aside what people think, suppose it had happened to us – on shabbat and no non-jew in sight – it died right in front of us, of course we let the dog die, but would we not feel at least a tiny bit of sorrow at the dog’s fate which reminds us of (human) mortality?
A 24hr button (not sure how exactly is called) is a timer which beeps an alarm after 24hr it has been operating. Staff can push a button and reset the counter. Or, if nothing is done, the machine shuts itself off after, I think, 6 or 12 more hours. This allows doctors to set up life support measures and if the patient is stabilized but has otherwise bleak prospects, the family and their rabbi can decide not to continue with efforts; if the patient looks like is responding well, he/she can stay on the respirator (or other life-support) as long as necessary. Such a device is available in Jewish hospitals but I don’t think is very common elsewhere. If the problem is unavailability of the device, a normal timer plug can help. If the problem is that staff is not going to accommodate the patient’s and family’s wishes and beliefs, there is no easy solution.
And please give me a break about ethical committees. Even nazis had them (and to their credit, the “program” with regards to handicapped people was shut down pretty quickly when such ethical committees objected). I am not going to rely on ethical committees, what has some chance to work is talking to the staff and doing what is necessary. Sure some people would be all up in arms about violation of regulations and rules, but I am afraid they are the same people who say that the nurse was forced to act like she did, and we have to live with it, or at most, write a complaint letter to the president and to the local congressperson. I don’t accept this. The nurse was not forced! Not even SS were forced! Those who declined to do, were not courtmartialed, were not demoted, were simply transfered to normal army units (oh yes, riskier job than the other one).
Also, please reread, I never said “give a lethal dose of medication”. This may well happen occasionally, but (if discovered) it is sanctioned, and besides, not even Dr Kevorkian did that (he offered a device which allowed the patient to suicide: he did not activate it). In any case that one is a totally different discussion and has to do with murder. I was talking about medical personnel who are uncomfortable with some people’s suffering or supposed suffering – a sedated old person in an ICU does not feel pain, but is difficult to watch and is disturbing, especially for those who share a certain view of life and death – and I was talking about medical personnel who “avoid delaying” the unavoidable, in most cases feeling good about it. By the way, “the unavoidable” is unavoidable for everyone, and no one can say how long they will live nor if we will be healthy or disabled (we can have an accident this very day) but this sobering thought does not seem to cross everyone’s mind. It should.