Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Did I read that right are you comparing detaining illegals, to nazism because it might of happened a few times that there where overzealous? Are you an AOC supporter?
The best answer I have to the “how would we know if rabbi went off” question, is that if other established gedolim said that a rabbi went off, we would draw the line there. Does anyone have any different answers? To me it is extremely clear that if Rabbi shneerson said “I am mashiach”. Gedolim would be unified in saying he went off. I am not saying he said he is mashiach.(I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt)but if he did according to my definition he isn’t a gadol. Does anybody have other definitions of how we would know if someone went off?
Well said Redleg.
Rso I fully agree with all that but in the very unusual event that the chazacka changed how would we know?
How would know otherwiseI think @grass made a very thoughtful and relevant point. The Chovos halevovos says the yetzer hara first objective is to attack the yesodos. He is really powerful. “ He is made of fire and we are flesh and blood”. We know it is possible for anyone, even great people to go awry. That is why chazal say “al tamin batzmecha at yom mosecha”. Rav Yochanan Cohen gadol became a tziduki. Acher went off. Eisav be Yitzchak went off. Chazal say Yosef almost did a terrible sin until he saw his fathers image. So clearly there is a danger that everyone can go off. Look at the damage shabsei Tzvi did. How do we know if someone great actually goes off? What would have to happen for us to say Rabbi X used to be good but now he’s krum?
I think @grass raised a crucial point. we know it is possible for great people to go off both morally and intellectually. some prime examples that come to mind presently are: yochanan cohen gadol, Acher and korach. that is why chazal say” al tamin beatzmecha ad yom mosecha”. so let us raise the following question if great people can conceivably go off, what would have to happen for us to say yes this particular rabbi or gadol, he was great but he went off. Or maybe he became somewhat krum. he went in the way of Acher? I have an answer to this question but i will wait on it.
Edited
That is an interesting proposal. Do you think charedi aboriginals would move to an area somewhere that is inhabited only by other charedi aboriginals. Native Americans weren’t allowed to take Manhattan back exactly.
I don’t think it s helpful to him or his religious future to start fighting about the utility of mechitza’s. Even if that would be a good idea the timing couldn’t be worse. It is often only appropriate to fight malicious people, but then it become insensible.
5ish I am following your thread and I don’t follow the relevance of your most recent post
This is all very interesting. It may or may not be controversial subject matter: Do some still believe that Tzadikim have power to run Hashem’s world (as his medium)? Kindly provide sources (seforim)to prove what seems to me in the kindest of terms, a radical departure from the rambam.
Preferably quote a chapter page etc.. not an entire book.
Mrs Levine are you suggesting that it isn’t always totally the parents and teachers fault? That someone going otd doesn’t prove the system is necessarily broken? Do you think teenagers and young adults have free will and might make decisions we don’t like by utilizing free will?
This not the time to post this.Try next year Rosh Chodesh Tamuz.
I don’t think it is fair to characterize otd as a by product of a lack of joy in avoda. I am sure it i a significant factor. But it is one of many. Abuse confusion trauma etc.: Another overlooked “factor” is free will.
Maybe they can get a third party involved(rov or askan). He can threaten to publicize or report it (doesn’t necessarily mean he should actually carry through)
“Hashem doesn’t like saying know to his close children.” I made a typo the word is no not “know”.
N9n I don’t agree with you and I understand both the Sephardic and askenazi cultures well. It is difficult to argue with you however as much of what you said is anecdotal.
Joseph I agree with much of what you said in this thread.”
“ N9N: Actually Ashkenazic is closer to the Second Beis HaMikdash practices.” Where on earth does that assertion come from. It seems like bigoted nonsense.Keraveltheint Let’s discuss your points one at a time. firstly, I would like to reiterate, the idea that I make issue with, is the assertion that tzadikim have power to run the world how they see fit. Even if that power is from Hashem. I don’t take issue with the classical Jewish concept that Hashem takes care of those that are close to him. “Tzadik gozer HKBH mekayem” see previously mentioned Gemara in taanis. That is a way Hashem runs the world. If that is your only point we agree. I also Accept the other classical Jewish concept, that Hashem does things in the zechus of tzadikim (Yakov in mitzrayim, us every yomim noraim with Aikeda etc..). What I take serious issue with is what you seem to be saying that tzadikim have power based on their wants and will (that comes from Hashem).
Let’s discuss your sources1) doesn’t seem compelling to me but also doesn’t seem like a problematic viewpoint.
2) classical Jewish thought that makes perfect sense chazal are filled with discussions on tzadikim zechuyos
3) How do you understand that? Rashi spells out that the tzadikim “rule over” Hashem. Does that mean through their power Ch’v! Clearly not. I understand that to mean Hashem doesn’t like saying know to his close children. As previously mentioned numerous times.
I am not familiar with chassiudus. I am familiar with Jewish hashkafa and rambam. You quoted a newspaper article that I have no access to and can’t verify. Kindly quote an actual Sefer preferably a Sefer that is by a gadol. I would be happy to look it up.
No it doesn’t it demonstrates that the Gadol Hador now holds you should have short hair.
Well in that case I cannot help you. I did try my best though
“The Rebbe Shlit”a explained, That he would hear often from him (HaRebbe of Dzhikov), that for tzadikim the strength is given from Shomayim to run the world how they desire it to be run, they hold the world in their hands…
I suspect you neglected to read what both Yeshivish Rockstar, and I posted above.
The Tzadik has no power that is his own, all his strength is from his connection to Hashem. “I read you words carefully.I cannot comment on the substance of your heart or mind. I do know however that you are writing that they are given power over this world. What those words say is that they are given an ability to control this world by Hashem. That is very literally the grave error quoted by the rambam. As mentioned previously ,that is totally different than both angels and righteous people praying for and blessing us. When the have no independent power given by Hashem or otherwise. In the angels case they are implementing Hashem’s will as messenger. And tzadikim who are like a Ben bayis,(see third Perek of taanis) are sometimes listened to when others aren’t. That is totally different from the above mentioned quotes! We don’t need mediums. I only want Hashem’s will. not the given will of rebbes or tzadikim. I don’t trust them. They are great well meaning people. But I only trust Hashem. Let him run the world he does a better job.
Keraveltheint and yeshivish rockstar, I am becoming increasingly convinced your descriptions may be heresy ch’v. Malachim have no independent power or will. They have missions. They are creations without independent influence that implement Hashem’s will. What you are describing are people that intercede not only through prayer, but though power given to them by Hashem. That sounds very much like the description of rambam in the beginning of laws of avoda Zara. That people used mediums to talk to to give them power instead of going directly to the source. Rambam call this a grave error. Tzadikim prayers and blessings are more easily listened to. I think saying they have power is kefira CH’V.
No that is my question you and keraveltheint seem to concede they may have power. That seems like it maybe heresy. As previously explained I am asking for someone to prove that: what you mentioned before (pls reread my previous post carefully) doesn’t proof that: I believe saying tzadikim have power is likely avoda Zara.
“keravelt: Valid point. I was wrong. I stand corrected: There is nothing wrong with believing a Tzaddik can control the world after his petira.
But where Chabad is still wrong is in asking the Tzaddik to do things for them even not by the kever! All the seforim hakedoshim state that theres a heter of asking a tzaddik to do something for you when two conditions (and you need BOTH) are met: 1) You are at the Tzaddiks kever 2) You ask him to intercede on your behalf to Hashem (not ask him for him himself to do something for you.) “
I see a tremendous difference between 2 things you mentioned. Asking someone who died to talk to Hashem and saying tzadikim have power. One of them is talking to them in the same way one would when a tzadik is alive. The idea of saying they have power sounds like avoda Zara as previously mentioned. If I am wrong would someone yeshivish rockstat keraveltheint etc pls explain it to me
This is not a criticism as I don’t know enough. But if indeed you are right and this is standard chasidish thought. How is that diff than the ovoda zara throughout history. Where people prayed for the sun and stars to intercede on their behalf to Hashem.
La boy this isn’t about beliefs.The Halacha is very clear that he is disqualified as he died. But would you please Adress my point. We know everyone can due great sins. Even sins of heresy. For example, acher and Yochanan kohen gadol. How would we know if a leader went off. (Once again I am not suggesting the Lubavitcher rebbe went off. I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.)But pls answer my question.
<span style=”color: #ff00ff”>He can’t answer your question because I keep deleting his posts (about how he can’t understand why it’s so hard for people to accept that the Rebbe is a deity etc etc)</span>
Bec in order to understand Torah you must work on it. Also otherwise you’ll never develop skills to read a Gemara.
Bec in order to understand Torah you must work on it. Also otherwise you’ll never develop skills to read a Gemara.
keraveltheint that is a very reasonable perspective. I would like to think that many Lubavitcher chasidim share your view. Or else that they will come to.Thank you
To clarify: I am not saying that rabbi shneerson is the leader in that example. I am not saying he advocated for anything wich is objectionable. I assume everything he said is wonderful. I am simply saying I don’t care what he did and didn’t say(esp as it seems his position on many of these thing are indeterminable). I simply know know what many of his followers believe is misguided. And even if he would say misguided things a line would have to be drawn.
Why would somebody believe the rabbi shneerson is mashiach? You don’t have to believe that.it isn’t complicated .i and certainly won’t believe anyone is mashiach until they fulfill all of requirements listed in the rambam.
I have no hatred for Chabad I love them. They are personally wonderful people and they are my brothers. I do find some ideas that seem to be particularly prevalent in chabad circles to be objectionable. Let us imagine a group of people behaving in a way that is morally bankrupt. Let’s say for example they said young children getting married and child abuse are good ideas in the 21 century. Or that we should go into secular Jewish neighborhoods and rough up anyone who isn’t observant to our standards. Feel free to imagine your own immoral possibilities. Well what would happen if those things became well known? There would naturally be a big public out cry.All of the gedolim and all the people would object. But if the leader of the immoral leadership would say “I am right I am a greater gadol. They are all tainted”. I would hope that their followers would follow the rest of klal Yisroel and the gedolim when they draw a line. If they don’t it would seem impossible to dissuade these well meaning followers of their errors. We would view our misguided brethren with great pity and hope they can one day see the truth. But if one won’t listen to reason,sources or gedolim there is very little we can do. We know people have a profound ability to corrupt themselves as we see all of the indiscretions that happened right after yitzies mitzrayim and Matan Torah. We pray for them cry for them and wait longingly for our brothers to correct themselves.
“Given the increase in population of the Frum communities vs the decrease of R/C, I expect to see the R/C/MO congregations being assimilated into the Sephardim. The Sephardim are orthodox but have the attitude of allowing their congregations practice as they see fit. We see this in Israel. Especially among the Mizrahi.”
I am not sure where to begin. It is virtually impossible to imagine R/C mixing in with Sephardim. It is a totally different world. R/C is a invention of the west that is extremely foreign to the middle eastern way of thinking. They cannot understand one each other. Also you seem to be assuming that bec Sephardim are less into externals and don’t care about your shirt color or sho style that people can practice as they see fit. That is certainly not the case Sephardim are interested in tradition as understood by the chachamim.
Apushta yid I hope you wouldn’t talk to the co-worker like that as he would inevitably say no. Also if you would invite them to sing zemiros are you an all women household.orbis kol isha ok out of shul
Joseph it seems you are trying to dramatize the question. But it seems like an identical scenario. Except that it has nothing to do with frumkeit as I just a easily could have been a kosher restaurant on Sunday.
I don’t know what I actually would have said. But smiling and saying what a beautiful accomplishment, so must be so proud sounds reasonable.
This is a very interesting thread. I hope nobody takes this too seriously and consults with their halachik authority.
It’s seems to me like reasonable criteria to being considered on the derech would be same criteria as being observant. To consider oneself observant and to keep basic mitzvos Shabbos kashruth etc..
It seems like most comments don’t factor in the inconveniences of Halacha: it isn’t analyzing halacha that is being used to apply to successfull living rather the other way around. As if our perception of what is good and responsible should therefore shape the Halacha. Our perseverance as a nation is always to understand and keep the Halacha first and foremost moral and just behavior follow that strict adherence.
After you jump and swim around a bit it’s exhilarating
Goldilocks good question I already shared my thoughts on 1 and 2 in terms of 3 you definitely cannot lie and say it’s great I suspect you can’t say it’s bad either prob the best thing to do is say I suggest a restaurant down the block you’ll love the decor and dish x is my favorite (I hope no one takes ananymous halachik advice on a chat too seriously)
AJ I’m thrilled to hear that
Laskern the chofetz Chaim discusses that case in detail and describes how and when to say that negative information
AJ if I understand you correctly are you saying you are saying that since certain things can be loshon hora(I doubt it) and we do it anyway therefore laws of LH are irrelevant and we should do wtvr we want.
MH please tell us your source telling us there a source we can search isn’t a source please name the Gemara or I will assume you made it up
I believe I made a distinction helping people keep Halacha and wich is an obligation according to the halachic authority’s or kashruth agency understanding of the Halacha moreover there is an obligation of hochech tochiach. I don’t believe ones not liking a service falls into that.i do understand that it is difficult to waste money however one must give up all of their money not to violate a lav I would like to stress that learning the Halacha would be extremely helpful.
Thank you to most of the recent posters for creating what is now a thoughtful discussion.