Forum Replies Created
shaatra- we dont need them at all. If they werent here then many people would be willing to do their job. We are in a financial meltdown where unemployment is skyrocketing (no thanks to the “stimulus bill”)- what is better, to have no job or a low-paying job? There are many people I know who would be willing to work in grocery stores or pizza places ect but they are not hiring because there is all this cheap labor!
I am not anti-immigration, just anti-illegal immigration. They broke the law coming here and they shouldnt be allowed to stay! I am a believer in the saying “high walls with wide doors”. If there wasnt so much illegal immigration, they would be able to allow more legal people in! I wouldnt mind them so much if they would become AMERICAN. Speak English, be proud to be Americans, follow the laws and DONT EXPECT THE GOVT TO CATER TO YOU! My great grandparents came here, learned English and went to school. One of my grandparents came here, learned English and went to college. Stop wanting the govt to put things in Spanish! English is our language and learn it for goodness sakes!
Why do people think that if you lived outside of NY or NJ or even Baltimore that you must be frei or a BT or not as frum? There are tons of frum people in other areas and I am tired of people asking me the craziest questions! I come to NY and people think I came from the moon!!
MM- I take offense at your comments regarding my non-existing wrinkles. Some of know how to hide our age well. How do you know I dont still get carded?
What do you mean by your comment about where I sit on the bus- are you spying on me? Were you the one wearing the white shirt, black suit and the black yalmukah? Or was that the one next to you?
havebeenthere- there is a difference in looking presentable and looking like you are going to your best friend’s vort every day. It is ok to throw your hair in a pony and not have to iron it straight everyday. What a waste of time! What is with so many girls today dressing so fancy! I never said that ALL girls from ALL these seminaries dress in a particular fashion. I just stated that no place is immune to the disease called “materialism” and “fashion conscious”.
I reject your statement that the places mentioned have girls that could have gone to any of them. Yes, there are those that apply to a combination of them, but there are many that would only fit in each one. If they were the same, why are there so many tears come February that I “only got into place X when I wanted to go to Y”. Why would there be a need for all of them? By the way, the phrase used “top contenders” makes it sound that girls that go to other places are not as “good” of girls as these girls. I have found that the place that you go does not define what type you will be. I know girls who went to these types who are “worse” than those from other seminaries. I have spoken to girls back from seminary and some of the girls who went to “top” places were so rude and cruel to those who went to others. “Well, they didnt go to my sem.” “Well, I went to place ABC”, implying that the other place was a sem for rejects, a second tier school or whatnot. Just watching how girls interacted when they came back. Seminaries do not make the girl. The girl has to be willing to allow the teacher’s wisdom to penetrate. Good girls go to many different places and not all the girls who go to any seminary are “good”.
confused tatty- you might also want to have your daughter ask girls who went 3 years ago as they see things from a different perspective than those straight out of seminary and are still in the “cloud”.
tzippi- I wouldnt define “good girls” as those who spend time on hair and clothes. What about middos? I have found in my experience that those who spend more time on these things are not spending them on more important things. I am not saying that good girls are shlumps but those that have every hair on their head aligned and in place are not necessarily that “great”. And seminary girls are not really teenagers anymore, especially if they are ready to get married. Teens, yes, may be involved in themselves and care how others look but once you become a wife, you need to look outside yourself. Your kids take precedence over your hair, nails or outfit. They need to realize that what is important is what is inside: mind, thoughts, hashkafa, middos ect.
jphone: then everyone will know my age! (and everyone else’s…)
smile1- unfortunately, yes, this seems to be the case. It is not a commandment for all the girls but yes, it happens to be true for a lot of them. They bring 3 suitcases minimum and have someone else bring another for them. So many clothes and shoes…
It seems like in many of the seminaries there is a real materialism-focus. At least in some of them that are larger. Even those that you wouldnt expect it!
BJJ, Hadar ect- real yeshivish places- they are not immune and they do it in a different way. Brand names. The uniform says blue shirts? they will get one from an expensive company and have many of them.
I was talking to girls who have gone in the last few years and they were saying how they felt odd not having Ralph Lauren or whatever that alligator one is… there were girls who found ways to accessorize to show off their brand names. If they were not wearing what other girls wore- they were seen as weird or not frum or yeshivish. Not wearing all black on a shabbos afternoon in the spring- you must be frei. There is an emphasis by some on their clothes and not how the girls are.
Not everyone is like this but I have found it to be true for some seminaries.
Health- I do know something about immunity (was a bio student at one point in my life). Someone had told me that and I was confused, so I posted my question. I just wanted clarification to unconfuse me! that is why it was in question format, not as a statement!
I applaud the fact that your daughter is not following the crowd. I assumed that they were popular in your daughter’s school as well as from what I heard from some girls, those seminaries have been popular the last year or two.
Have you looked into tiferes? Its warm, smaller (not sure how many are there this past year), and the girls that I know went there are academic but dont want the huge pressure of BJJ and Mesoras Rochel. They want to learn but without the major stress and panic of some seminaries. You learn but they wont tell you to memorize the tanach. Real BY seminary. Girls I know who went there are “daughter of rebbetzin” type but still fun, sweet and kind. I know of a few teachers who work there and they are really warm and kind. You can be close to their staff. its in a great location- sanhedria merchevet- walking distance to the kosel (cant do it 2 times a day but do-able) and near great neighborhoods.
Thank you SJS.
When can the frum population realize that public education is public and free and is not the same as unemployment or WIC? The govt has no responsibility to provide for the frum community and pay for our schools, buses, kollels ect. (Vouchers would help, but that is another story). We need to help ourselves and find ways for us to be self-sufficient – and that does not mean taking from the rich. we should all try to make due with what Hakodosh Baruch Hu gives us. We were alloted money at the Rosh Hashana. If we take what isnt ours, than we will have the money taken from somewhere else (broken washing machine, need a new car, doctors bills C”V). If that is where you were to get your money from, than do it ethically and morally! How could someone sleep at night knowing they are stealing!?
Where does this money come from? Oh my- does this mean that the girl’s father WORKS? Has relatives that work?
I do not feel that it is hachnasas kallah to provide an apartment, money to live on ect for the couple. hachnasas kallah is normally thought of for girls and boys who have either no family or a tragic life story that they cannot afford basics. Having a 150,000 dollar apartment paid for is not basic! What happened to the couple needing to provide for themselves? I understand supporting for a couple years, especially if he is a real scholar and illui.
If these boys dont work and have no income as they are being supported by their parents, how will they marry their children off? they dont have money to provide for an apartment! So, the grandparents will pay. what about when they cannot work anymore, run out of money or are niftar?October 28, 2009 4:38 am at 4:38 am in reply to: What Do You Do When There Is An Incentive To Be Irresponsible? #664163
There are some schools that require all people who are requesting a “tuition reduction” show their past year’s tax records. That way it avoids the whole issue. If they could afford to take an expensive vacation, then they can afford to pay for tuition.
Neatfreak- I was not saying that YOU were a leech. I was saying that is what the goyim might say. that is why it was in quotes ‘ramifications of the goyish world finding out that the frum communities are “leeching off the government”‘ Ie: they will think it is leeching.
I am not saying that it is wrong to take govt subsidies if you need it, just do so b’emes. Also, maybe getting a part-time job until your salary kicks in might be necessary. But once again, just dont cheat on it because another scandal is the last thing the american frum community needs. Just because others are doing it, doesnt mean that you should as well. If shloimy jumped off the empire state building would you do so as well? “there are plenty of people out there” who do it- but should an ehrliche yid do it? If you qualify- sign up! But dont be like the “plenty of people out there” who cheat to qualify.
Once again, are you only going to look into those seminaries listed? Just because it was right for shmerel and berel doesnt mean that it will be right for your daughter. Just because her friends are going there, it might be best to go somewhere different. She can be who she wants, instead of who she was in hs (no one is there to say- frumy, you know she wasnt like this in hs…) I know a girl- all her friends went to BJJ and the like and she didnt but she grew so much and had such a wonderful year! Some of the less popular ones might be right. Your daughter is different from everyone else’s so she shouldnt be forced to go to the same ones as they are. Look into different ones!
wow. thanks for posting. The america of yesteryear has gone and a new, “changing” america is here. If you are ashamed to stand up for your rights, dont complain when they are forcibly taken away.
I was told that using it too much gets rid of good germs and prevents you from having your own immunity become stronger.
what is C. Difficile by the way?
Confused Tatte- would you look into other seminaries besides those? There are tons of seminaries that are not as publicized that might be right. Before, when I meant academic, a better term would be textually based or not. Some, like machon raya and BJJ, seem to be mostly textual classes. Some seminaries have a mix, while some are mostly non. Textual also can mean “will they make you learn the entire sefer shoftim on your own in a week with meforshim” or it can mean “we will be learning shoftim in detail and depth in class with homework preparation”. Hatzlacha finding the right seminary for your daughter!
As stated in another post, decide: small or big? where on the yeshivish/non yeshivish spectrum?
Pros/Cons to big: the seminaries you mentioned were larger: BJJ, BYA, Bnos Chava ect. They are great if your daughter is a real socialite who needs 30 good friends this type may be for her. More of a variety of girls. Can be clique-y when there are so many girls there.
Pros/Cons to small: Less girls so it is better for those who dont want to be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers and types. Smaller seminaries may choose the exact girls to go that are a certain “type”. This is great for those who like a few really close friends but is friends with most of her seminary. She will know almost everyone at the start (a real struggle for some), have attention from the teachers, and there is a certain school spirit when girls know everyone.
There are also differences in academics. Some sems are particularly one type or another. Some have a mix of levels, which means they focus on the overall girl and yeshivish level rather than high school grades and GPAs, and this has its benefits as well.
There are some things that can only be done with larger seminaries and some only with smaller ones. Its like the shidduch process but there are so many out there that you can find the one that fits your daughter best. Maybe tell us more info about the place you are dreaming of and we can tell you better fits.
NY Mom- why do the yeshivos start so late? Maybe they should all start at 8. This means traveling at around 7:30 or earlier so there would be a different crowd on the buses then. More commuters than public school children. Have all high schools, boys and girls, start at 8 or even 7:45. That way shachris will be said on time! Why do NY schools start so late- at 9? I have been in several communities and seen different schools. Many start at 8:30 or 8. Want to be different than the goyim? Start earlier, not later! I had to get up at 6 to get to school when I was in school. There was a public school nearby and the school was told that if they wanted to open, they had to start earlier than they were. why is NY so late????
Oh, and why do the boys need so much more time to mature? Obviously they arent doing that maturing when the girls are! Yes, many girls are pushed to marry when they are immature, but why is it expected for guys to not date anyone before 24? I dont say close there should be marriage control, just that the guys should be forced to mature earlier.
I was speaking from personal experience. Boys are treated very differently than girls. Home ec is expected for women. Boys are barely taught how to balance a checkbook! Boys are kept in an enclosed environment for several years and dont know about the real world. the value of a dollar. To many, money grows out of the ATM. They run out- mom and dad put more in. Many girls have this while in seminary, but afterwords many work full time. Boys are kept in the “seminary mindset” for several years…
If Jack and Jill jumped off a bridge would you do the same? Just because there are many people cheating the system (“the renters with 3 or 4 SUV’s, fancy gadgets, etc, but are on every program” as mentioned above) does not make it any more kosher.
-I find it hard to believe that people on every program have 3 or 4 SUVs- they check into your tax records ect- to buy a car they check your credit rating and you have to have a decent job to have a high rating
-Anyone thought about the ramifications of the goyish world finding out that the frum communities are “leeching off the government”? Talk about a chillul Hashem!!!
does OP mean opening poster?
wolfish- you never can tell with some people/posters…
cute digressions, right on target that girls should wait until they are 20 but there is a slight problem- facts on boys. I mean, maybe the boys should mature earlier. Maybe the guys should be taught to be responsible and how to be a father/man of the house earlier like girls are taught their stuff in high school (home ec anyone?).girls are taught in some math classes how to balance a checkbook but boys are treated with kid gloves.
both sides are at fault and BOTH need help. No ONE group is responsible but each is making the hole bigger and bigger and bigger. (can you see china yet?)
that means we think… we dont stick the party line (whichever- right, left, litvish, chasidish ect) and consider things. or we are confused, but i prefer the former.
anon- you arent my doppelganger? Oh well… I guess I need to be on the lookout for mine. They say everyone has one out there… 😉
since this is a health post on antibiotics, I had a question to post:
overdosing on purell and other antibacterial/anti viral instant hand cleansers- I have heard that they destroy good bacteria with the bad ones. Also that they could cause the bacteria to become immune to the cleansers and to multiply. Isnt a little dirt good for you? Of course if you are sick you should clean your hands to avoid others from getting any type of flu you might have. (Or if you are dealing with chemicals or disections in biology class- please clean your hands before preparing food!) dont you want your body to not get sick every time you come into contact with a bacteria? I have heard different things- whether purrel is good for you or bad. any ideas?
isnt grape-fruit juice also to be avoided when on certain cholesterol medications? I was at someone’s house and they mentioned that the fruit salad had grapefruit in it for one of the other people at the table (who said they had to avoid it because of a medication taken to reduce heart issues-not sure what).
seems like with all these interactions, one needs to ask their doctor every time they get a new med to find out the purpose, reactions (normal and abnormal they might get), and any interactions that they should be aware of with their other medication/foods.
we are such a pill-popping generation it makes me wonder what they did in the past.
In most cases, the spouse would be working to support them. Many couples do not get married right away if they know that they will not be able to support themselves. They will work out some arrangement (ie: have a longer engagement so that one can finish school if both are in school at the same time). Some post graduate programs provide grants for living expenses- yes, they are not a lot but it helps. Those who are in post-graduate science research would not be taking food stamps but in most cases either have money saved, at least one grant, or would work night-shift somewhere. In the case mentioned above, the spouse was working towards her degree (and would be going on to her CPA) and her husband was not earning anything while in kollel.
There is a difference. I am not saying that people should not be in kollel. That is for a different post (but by the way I support people being in kollel). I am saying that they should not be taking government handouts and food stamps if there is another way around it.
Only in NY would you worry that there isnt school transportation for all grades. In almost no other (outside tri-state) community is there state-supported transportation. Parents need to find ways for their kids to get to school. They can:
-learn to not associate with goyim and travel in groups of frum kids. they need to learn not to look and associate with those who you shouldnt be dealing with
– have a parent accompany the kids as a chaperon but this will not work out very easily. Parents work.
– have the PARENTS pay the school to arrange a private bus service. It should not be done by the state and it should be optional. If you cannot afford the service then you need to find alternative modes of transportation. No one should be forced to use it and no one should be forced to pay it. those who pay tuition can pay for this, but it is an EXTRA.
I am completely afraid that the government is already on the road to an authoritarian regime. The media is playing into Obama’s hands (except for Fox- thanks Fox news!). No matter what Obama said they conveniently forget that he contradicted himself and made remarks that showed his true intentions. They play around with the polling numbers. They dont tell you that 27% strongly approve of his actions while 40% strongly disapprove. and he started in the 70% approval…
They are controlling the media, the press and maybe the internet soon as well.
Now the BATFE is (illegally) compiling a national gun registration database on legally bought legal guns. Our constitutional right is being overtaken. The second amendment is being overrun, and it was put in place to protect our 1st amendment rights. soon it will be illegal to speak up against the govt….
oh, wait- Obama already asked for “watchdogs” to report on people sending emails to others about the administration so they can “stop the spread of misinformation”. he wants the children to be told lies in the classroom…they cant even learn the truth! You are racist if you speak up against him, but he is never wrong…
This Obama-nation is an abomination!
Jothar- people here were not commenting about those who lost their jobs and need government support until they can find a new job. People should not be on it forever (unless C”V severely disabled or critically ill and cannot work). People were commenting on the attitude that people will just accept money that they dont deserve, but rather want. Many people have to struggle to pay bills in today’s economy. My family is cutting back on things that they can live without, so at the same time, I expect others to as well. And no one lost a job in my family, B”H, they just dont have as much floating around. Money that you take is coming from my pocket. I pay taxes. I remember when I was a child I worked in a camp and paid taxes on it. they took money from me for social security and medicare ect when I was just 16 or 17! Is this where my money went to? I felt that “at least someone sick or disabled was able to eat dinner” but it went to people who were just taking it. If you are willing to take any job, there are plenty of jobs available. People just feel “high and mighty” and wont take them as they might be menial labor or “below their status”. If you were unable to get food stamps and other such tax-paid benefits, you would take those jobs. You would need to keep an open mind and take anything, even if it was “just pennies an hour” because that would mean the difference of dinner or not.
If you cant support a husband in kollel- get out of kollel! It is for those who are willing to sacrifice to be able to support Torah. Taking the tax-payers money is not giving up from yourself to support Torah. Let your husband work for the year or two until you get your job and then let him go back to learn!
mybat got it right. It was just an example. I have lived all over: places with no pizza shops or restaurants, places with only a bakery, places with several pizza shops. It was just an example. They might have a need for something that is taken for granted in New York that would make a decent business out of town. Also, out of town, people are more willing to “help the frum guy” and go to his store because they know that everyone needs to help everyone versus in New york where people might go to the shop right ect. I support you and you help me.
Cost of living in small towns are a lot cheaper. Besides for cost of housing ect, people are more willing to accept you for who you are. There is less of the “I have this and you dont….” or competing with the Golds or “I’ll only be friends if you have this…” (peer pressure is less). So your other purchases cost less because you dont feel the same drive as in NY. Yes, it depends on the area but this is just in my experience.
Jothar- the difference is between being lazy for easy money or working so you can do better than that! Some of these programs dont give that much money, but if you tried getting an extra shift ect you would make more. Dont rely on them because the way the deficit is working, they might cut program funds soon and then you are really in trouble. Also, save the money for those that might need it more than you! (not those that are lazy but those that are sick/single parents ect that cant do it)
Thank you to all that answered my question about timing… funny how people have such varied ideas about time/place! well, at least you have one!
Why dont we start looking into smaller communities to live in? To contradict what others said, There are plenty that have job openings that need more people to stay around. Otherwise, if they move to NY, more competition for the same jobs…
New York is not the only place to live! In smaller communities there are more job openings, especially for teachers, special ed ect. They need them! Also, cost of living can be so much cheaper there that a little decrease in salary can be still manageable. I have lived in many areas and have seen it. Want to open a pizza shop? Go someplace where there isnt 4 on a block, just one or two in the city. Open on a different “side of town”. Just look at these areas and you will see that it is manageable to move out of NY. Yes, you wont be able to most likely have 5 types of cholov yisroel cheddar cheese, but you might have one or two.
I would like to add a few ideas to the general pool of thought. There are many great ideas here…
– start to teach either your children or your classes (if you teach) that not all workers are rich, not everyone should be in kollel if they cannot do it ect. parents and teachers alike will have your head but it has to be said.
-If people felt what kollel was really like, not living off your parents for a few extra years, maybe more people will sincerely think about getting a job. They shouldnt be living off everyone ect. I heard two people talking “do you think that your parents treated your brothers differently than you (female)? In todays world, do they spend more on you than your brother?” (I was listening in to a psychology lecture) “Well, he’s married so he needs more support than I do” . If someone is married, shouldnt they be able to support themselves?
I know someone who went to touro in the last year or so… so, according to them:
Undergraduate courses at touro college flatbush are separate. That is if you go through the regular LAS program. Mondays, WED, SUN nights are for men. Tuesday, THURS, and Sunday morning and afternoon are all for women. They dont let students of the wrong gender (depending on the night) past security. The security guard goes around and kicks people out, the library staff make sure you leave ect.
You can opt to take a class in the SCAS program, which is their program so they can write that they dont descriminate on the bases of gender ect. Any person can be a part of the program, like any other school. These classes are in the morning MON-FRI. If you go through the LAS (FRUM) program, you do NOT have to take classes here. Some do because of convenience ect.
Touro Graduate schools- those have a mechitza.
wait! socks need to match each other? yikes! (I guess that is why women wear tights…)
skunks, penguins and prisoners all wear black and white. hmmm… sounds like one of those rhymes from kindergarten. What’s black and white and red all over?
A penguin eating dinner?
A skunk blushing?
a zebra on roller skates?
NO! A yeshiva guy holding a gemara!
ICOT- what are the timings that those sirens go off? (ie: how many minutes before shabbos?) thanks.
sammygol- so, is this a direct correlation scientifically? seems to be proof enough to consider it! you seem to be one of the only people with a brain on this post! Maybe if we stopped concentrating on what they wear while learning and instead concentrated on their learning, we might make some progress in the community and frum world at large.
Had a brainstorm- if boys stopped concentrating on what they wore (brand names, colors, styles, fabrics, animal/boat/whatever symbols) maybe it would help stop girls from being obsessed over weight and fashion (to impress future shidduch chances) as the boys wouldnt care either! One thing seems to lead to another. Yes, girls will be concerned naturally, but if boys stopped thinking about it all day, then at least one pressure would be off the girls. Maybe they would be more “middle of the road” and not so obsessed. Just my thoughts.
Just in case anyone out there is looking at seminaries, I just found out (from a reliable source) that Shoshanim Seminary is opening next year on their beautiful new campus with an added extension for next year. The current year is extremely happy to be there! I know about the seminary cuz I know a lot of girls who have gone there in the past and they were thrilled at the school!
Contact the school for more information! I was told that you can request an application from them as well if your local high school does not have them.
Shoshanim USA office:
c/o Mrs Baum
2 Miriam Lane
Monsey, NY 10952
ronrsr- we’re on the same page… see my comment earlier about wearing colored shirts… 😉
To everyone else: why do people look down on those with colored shirts? I still do not understand the gashmiyus that our world has come to- we care about what someone wears rather than who they are. We might not always care about brand names but we label others based on simple things like colors!
Do the men have to buy a new shirt every few weeks because once it turns the slightest bit gray…gasp! They are wearing a different color than black and white!!!
Men can wear colored shirts just like women can wear colors besides black. Like, what is that about? men can only be a penguin and women need to look like they are always going to a funeral?
How could you really know whether someone is a guy or a girl? I mean, even if our name has a gender-oriented name (mom, rebbe, seminary, yeshiva, BY, chosidishe guy, woman, male, shloimy, rivky, dad, girl, boy…just examples, dont know if all of these are really in names or not…) we could be faking it the whole time. Isnt that the problem with website-communication anyways? I mean, isnt that what we have been told (and our kids as well) that we should never trust anyone on the web to be who they say they are? How many unfortunate cases are there of people pretending to be a friend, about the same age as a kid, tries to meet up with them and ends up being a kidnapper or worse?
How would you stop someone from posting on a forum that is “male only”? Would you really be able to sincerely say that so and so is a guy or a girl? For all you know I can be a teenage guy, a mother of 10 kids, a grandmother with 20 grandchildren, a father of 4, a 10 year old, an 80 year old, sefardi or chasidish or ashkenazi, or NOT EVEN JEWISH!! Yes, someone can spout the yeshivish or terminology but how do you know?
I mean how do you really know?
I am just trying to scare you that you dont even know who anyone on here is!
It must be assur for men to wear purple or pink shirts as it can come to mixed dancing.
are they going to forbid someone buying the newspaper if they are the wrong gender? If you have a problem with a newspaper or website forum, DONT USE IT. Use your best judgment and stop trying to push your derech and your “takana of the week” on everyone else. It will just cause people to want to read the other pages, want to read other news sources ect. Let people use their judgments as you are not their mother and father. You can stop your children from reading it but leave the rest of the world out of your decision!
cashiers will need to be specially trained to determine if the purchaser is either of the appropriate gender to buy the selected edition or can provide proof that they are purchasing it on behalf of another person not of the same gender as the purchaser.
on a similar note, advertisements will need to be either gender neutral or gender specific for the edition in which they are advertising e.g. watches designed for women will need to go into the ladies edition and watches designed for men will need to go into the edition for men. true this will raise advertising costs and the increase will be passed on to the end consumer, but who would really want to have non gender specific advertisements.
Sorry about my assumptions.
Some of my comments were not directed solely at you. The first one was and I was wrong to assume. Everyone has their reasons. I was upset at the general idea that “women should not be on top of their husbands’ learning.” If he is on VIN or YWN during times when he should be in kollel, well there seems to be a problem with that. It is wasting other people’s money. If he was working and was spending time on non-work activities, then that could be gezel ect. same with kollel- they are getting a stipend for a reason.
Once again, I am sorry about any pain I might have caused you as I know you would do your utmost to learn in kollel.
All that talk about “women not being the mashgiach… dont harass the boy” is pointless here and it isnt your place to say these things. A boy who should be in kollel should NOT be on YWN or VIN. They get a stipend and this is how they spend their time? People look up to those in kollel, and if they knew you were on here…?
zman- you see, according to some on this thread, you need to fix their pipes even when they cant pay and have no hopes of paying. They wont get a degree, go to any sort of technical training, acquire any paying skills, or even get a job. So they can’t afford to pay their bills, tuition, necessities and those who are trying to earn a job. So you need to work double the hours (helping them for free or reduced costs and then doing full-cost jobs so you cant spend your extra time learning. Learning Torah is important but not at the expense of others. I mean, one should not be makpid on a mitzvah if it will harm another person.