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I, too, am a mother of a son who chose a different lifestyle from his upbringing. It was very painful for us. We were always concerned about this child and his health issues, and we turned over the world, sparing no money or time from addressing his issues, although my husband and I do not have much of either. When he finally came clean with us, he was angry, disrespectful, and quite frankly, cruel and mean.
He has since totally retracted himself, and is trying to find his way back into our lives while maintaining his independence. He is truly trying to be a good son.
My husband is a tzaddik, he behaves to him as if nothing has happened, ignoring his incredible pain, because of his love for his son which is unending. Although I have accepted him as a repentant son, I do not imagine myself ever trusting him again, and he feels this and is pained by it. At this point, he alone is suffering from his choices, as I have emotionally moved on.
Assaf you sound like a mature and sensitive young man. I strongly request that you come clean (gently)with your parents. First of all, we are only human. Witholding such an important part of your life can only backfire at some point, as it did with my son who held himself for way too long (at least five years). Second, (I realize that I am speaking as someone who believes, I can only speak from such a place) Hashem will help them with this journey. They will, at some point, come to terms with their new reality. And both sides will find their peace, bezrat Hashem.
On another note, I personally do not think that you need to wait for them to come to Israel. I think that the distance (phone calls, letters, etc. whatever you are comfortable with) may soften the blow. They will probably want to come shortly thereafter to see you.
Assaf- may your sensitivity and kibbud av v’aim stand as a zchus for you, and may you find your happiness and peace within our people. May you be matzliach in maintaining your parents relationship through this difficult time.
Sam2 – that’s amazing. Does this woman work?
mexipal – yom kippur koton does not distinguish between men and women. There are minyanim in Shomer Shabbos in 13th Avenue for Yom Kippur Koton and women attend all day long.
mdd – thank you for your correction. I was clearly misinformed.
rebdoniel – the syrian community is by far the largest sephardic community in brooklyn, but there ARE other sephardic communities in brooklyn as well as in other parts of the region. The above posters are correct, once you leave Brooklyn you will have even more of a variety of communities to choose from.
Zahavasdad – the Syrian community has a long standing mesorah (many, many generations) to not accept gairim into their community. That’s their minhag already.
write or wrong – First of all, “unconditional love” is a beautiful concept. However, today, not every child goes off the derech because he did not get unconditional love. It appears that that was what we heard about maybe five years ago. Today, boys are going off because they are going off. Today, there are boys that no matter what was done for them, it was the wrong decision. It is a combination of factors; first and foremost, that we don’t really understand our children’s experiences and their natures until they are older and it is too late. Sometimes, even when asking Daas Torah, it is not the case anymore that the rabbonim know what to do. The world is changing much faster than anyone can keep up, and unless a rav has a kesher with a boy and really knows that boy, there is no rhyme or reason on what makes boys today go otd. Third, there is much more abuse in our community than people realize. There is a growing awareness that many of our kids are being porek ol because they were victims and are too ashamed to get help. There could be any one of a number of traumas that occurred, as well. What is most important to ALWAYS remember is that the child who goes OTD is suffering terribly and could not communicate this in a healthy way, for whatever reason, mostly because they are immature.
To reiterate, today there is a hester ponim, and we really don’t necessarily know how to raise our children. First and foremost is to daven. Secondly, speak to a rov that is familiar with these issues in your neighborhood, and if your son won’t go for counseling, then please, you and your spouse should go, to answer your critical questions of limitations, how to deal with his anger, and how to communicate with your other children.
As a suggestion, today, what appears to help the boys/girls is “unconditional acceptance”: this is much harder and apparently leaves a greater impression on the child, because many of these kids really do know that they are loved. Remember, the one suffering the most in this picture is your son. May you be bentshed to see Yiddishe nachas from EVERY one of your children. Hatzlocha vebrocha.
Yasher Koach. You gave me a lot of chizuk.
BT guy –
actually the gemara does discuss him, and does describe him as one with a faulty character, if not an apikores. He was expelled from one of the yeshivas of the time for his faulty character, as demonstrated by his having looked at a women’s eyes, and then commenting on them, which at that time was not done by anyone. I have to check on the apikorsus, but I’m pretty sure that he is branded as one even in the gemara. In such a case, the laws of loshon horah do not apply.
If your inquiry is to determine whether or not it is right for you or your family members, then it is strongly recommended that you discuss it privately with your rav, or someone who may know you and YBT. Hatzlocha vebrocha.
Then you can daven, Hashem is the One who can turn hearts back to Him. Hatzlocha vebrocha.
Yasher Koach for trying to help this boy. More information is needed.
Is his family frum? Are there any frum family members? Is there anyone with solid hashkafas that he would listen to? What you need here is a person with firm understanding of why this is wrong who is also known by the boy to genuinely care about him. This is a person that may be able to get through to him.
How far along in the relationship is he?
“Question is, how do you ask it to get the truth? Anyone have a good technique?”
Everyone answers according to their own perspective. The only answer is to daven, daven, daven, that Hashem show you the truth, and the right way to go.
My father, bli ayin harah, is all spunk. When he was seventy years old (eighteen years ago), we went through a harrowing experience, as we watched his health suddenly go down, culminating with a succesful triple by-pass surgery. The first time I spoke to him after the surgery, he got on the phone, and weakly said “hello?”
Full of emotion at hearing his voice again, I said “How are you feeling?”
He weakly answered, “the doctor said I have a heart now like a baby”.
Again, overcome with emotion, I said “Baruch Hashem, Biz hundred un tzvontzig!”
To which he ROBUSTLY replied “The doctor just gave me until 140 – ALREADY you’re cutting off 20 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
mw13- I think that the gemara does talk about ayin hara and notes that it is a real force in this world. Further, I think that the lead antidote is also from the gemara
my comment is to r12fried78’s initial comments.
Doesn’t this fall under the category of kishuf?
being in the parsha is unfortunately a very difficult place to be. Again, as I said before, you would be surprised how many people who would seem to “have it all”, and have the right CV are shlepped through the mud and could be made to feel not very good about themselves. Another function of the galus.
Keep davening, Hashem is listening to you, and will bring you to a wonderful shidduch. You sound like a gevaldig girl.
dear clever –
your story and the pain with it pierces to the core.
It truly is a story of galus, the distance between us and Hashem, as much as we want to be close, there is more and more that distances us.
It is true that your loneliness makes you feel that your situation has set you apart. But as you aptly noted, many others feel that way each due to their own situation.
BTW – there are plenty of yeshivish people, chassidish people… who are not treated right. There is a reason that the Bais Hamikdash isn’t here, yet.
Wonderful people in the above posts made beautiful suggestions on how to get back to Hashem. You can do this, and once you do, you will find that it is only this connection that any body really “has” in this world.
May you truly be zocheh to reconnecting with Hashem, and may your life be a fulfillment of “Samchainu Keyimos Inisonu”July 26, 2010 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025895
#1 – Philosopher, mechila, it is not the chumros that have allowed us to adhere to the letter of the law throughout the generations, it is limud Torah for men, and Tznius for women, as it is chazal meforeshes that Torah tavlin leyetzer horah, and nothing else, and it is the Chasam Sofer who stated clearly that the same is true for women, through their dargos of tznius.
Tznius is HALACHA, period. Certainly we can understand the mesorah of it, the hashkafa of it, most importantly, the beauty of it. However, it is halacha, and although I read only a few of the posts, I did see confusion. For example, those who spoke about the knee perhaps didn’t realize that this is simply untrue. There is no heter for skirts uncovering the knee, as by everyone’s definition, the knee in its entirety is part of the thigh. This does not differ whether one is Ashkenazi or Sephardi, Litvish or chassidish.
As for the deterioration of tznius in our generation, it is sad. Unfortunately, it is closely connected to the deterioration of self-esteem in today’s generation. Women today do not necessarily dress for men, rather they dress for women. It is so so sad. If people want to be mechanech their daughters, they need to first and foremost be taught their values as daughters to the king, daughters to the family, and their ability to give to society. Teaching our girls to fulfill their potential, bringing them back into the kitchen so that they can be taught that it is important when they give to their homes, neighbors, community, again, and not pushed in school to produce for a curriculum if it is hard for them to be successful, or forget success – hard for them to be noticed. Let’s face it – the inert messages given in the schools today are not the healthiest. Please do not mistake this to mean that girls should not be educated or pushed to their potential in academics. Anyone who has ever raised a child understands that one can encourage success in one area while being mechanech them on where the priority needs to be.
If we cherish our daughters, we can learn to communicate that so that they learn to cherish their value.
the out of sync child is a great suggestion for your son’s sensory issues. But what about the speech? Is it language? Organization?
what do you mean by slight? Are you talking about sensory issues?
There was a story that circulated recently about Reb Ahron Leib Shteinman. A menahel from a local prestigious cheder whose chinuch was known to be solid and steeped in the traditions of the fathers and grandfathers approached Reb Aharon Leib. It seems that a week or so beforehand, he was walking to his car and saw some OTD boys who approached him and started beating him. Baruch Hashem he was basically ok after some convalescing. He had recognized them, though, as boys that had been to his cheder, and recalled that they weren’t good boys, but not bad boys then either, and had handled them in the way that he was accustomed to, which was with “physical force”. He never thought twice about his approach, until after this incident. His question to Reb Aharon Leib was whether or not he was right in his derech, which WAS the derech of the generations.
Reb Aharon Leib shlita answered him that today the generation is weak. One can not be mechanech today’s children the way that previous generations had been raised, because today’s children can not hold up to it.
Perhaps that is the problem, as you say, the parents are the same. Today’s generation requires a different approach.
WIY – I think it was the Alter from Slabodka who said that a person should put aside half an hour each day to think about how they are being mechanech their children.
I admit, I haven’t read this whole thread…
“If we are to respect and accept sinful choices of the OTD’s”
I don’t think it is about respecting and accepting sinful choices.
Working with OTD kids is about understanding where they may be holding mentally and emotionally in order to be able to communicate with them, and possibly reach them.May 26, 2010 10:43 am at 10:43 am in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025151
Pashuteh Yid 2.0 – where does Reb Moshe zatzal discuss hilchos tznius?
Ramateshkolian – when mothers are tznuot in their hanahagos, as well as in their dress, when their middos are more toward anivas and less toward brazenness, this makes a powerful effect on a daughter. Further, when a mother focuses on her child’s pnimius when they are young and as they grow, the chitzonius comes more naturally, because it is the natural netiya of a child to want to grow up and be a tznua, because it is a mitzvah that HKBH was metzave to every part of a woman’s body (midrash Breishis). In a psychological note, she will want to grow up to be like her mother.
However, once a child is exposed to outside influences in what she perceives as acceptable models such as secular media which are filled with models that lure us away from the derech of Torah, she becomes confused. In general, when these influences are not given credence in the home, the child gets the message of ikar/tafel, and can maintain the standard of the home. However, in today’s world where children from even the most upgehiten home are exposed, even this is not a guarantee. However, it is critical that these messages come from the home, schools can only support the messages of the home. It is my experience that even if the schools mess up with their messages, kids eventually grow up to adopt the standards of the home, as long as the relationship with the parents are intact.
There’s a place called “Bais”, have you heard of it?
I went to a local shidduch meeting recently. It was only a small percentage of girls that were looking for a boy in kolel. Most of the girls, lovely and frum, were looking for “learner-earners”.
The picture posted of him in Kiryat Shmona showed him wearing a kippa. Just the fact that a boy grows up in a secular environment in Israel and seeks out and puts efforts into this part of himself is impressive, regardless of whether or not he is not-yet-frum. He does have a sister who is frum. They’re Jewish – they have zchus Avos.
I’m truly happy for Mr. and Mrs. Netanyahu, may they, and all of klal Yisroel see Yiddishe Nachas from all of our children.
Someone dressed up as teenky weenky (teletubbys) in Montreal. He was hysterical. Even the cops stopped to share in the simcha.
AZ – thank you. Tzippi – I’m not chas vesholom going to question a term used by a gadol, it just confused me.
hereorthere – A response like the one you received from that shadchan was narrow, and there are many shadchonim, and well intentioned individuals that are trying to help people no matter what the background. Hatzlocha Vebrocha.
AZ – what do you mean by “the longer it takes, the more agunos out there”?
classofTasham – that’s a very sad story. I know of yeshivish families where the parents of the boy meet the girl on the first day in order to help their son through the process, never in order to nix a shidduch before it even gets off the ground.
aries2756 – they may in fact be looking for a soul mate, and truly be ready for the responsibility of marriage. They may just not know exactly how to teich out each date, each nuance, each subtlety that becomes overt after a wedding. And once in the parsha, people on the outside become experts and in today’s world, even in the Torah world, are telling the boys that they don’t have to listen to their parents, because they know better. Boys get confused – why shouldn’t they? They can be temimusdik – this does not have to mean that they are not responsible, or not ready to get married.
I just read an article from a boy, a couple of weeks ago, in the Five Towns Jewish Times. This boy, a yeshiva bochur, described in the article how he missed the signs in the shidduch process, and “feels trapped”, as he is very unhappy. It didn’t sound to me that this boy was from a closed minded background, as he stated in the article how his parents always had families over on Shabbosim, with daughters, and he felt comfortable speaking with them. He went on to say how this did not help him at all, once he started in shidduchim.
So there is no pat answer for everyone. I’m just raising some points that may be considered before someone takes an achrayus of redting a shidduch to a boy or girl who will not be connected to a Torahdik mensch.
I didn’t mean to confuse anyone. I thought that this discussion was the question of whether or not/how to redt a shidduch if parents and children want two different things. As for the boy or girl, I would again, say, that it depends on how old and mature they are. If they are young, then they are safer being connected to someone who knows them and can guide them in a Torahdik way. Usually, this is how it works, even if the parents agree, that the boy or girl discuss a shidduch that they are serious about with a Torahdik person, whether or not you want to call it Das Torah. If the boy or girl is older and/or more mature, it probably isn’t practical or necessary, as you said, for the boy or girl to have to consult someone before every shidduch that comes in. Once the boy or girl has their mahalach I would imagine that they would consult someone, again, only if the shidduch is serious. It is really tough to feel that such a weighty decision needs to be decided alone. Most boys and girls want the input and guidance.
The only point that I am suggesting is that before a person redts a shidduch to a young, immature, and temimusdik boy or girl without parental approval or consent, to realize that this is a heavy achrayus – the shadchan, friends, etc. walk away from it after the chuppah, but the ones left coping with the outcome of the decsions are the chosson or kallah themselves, and parents. I certainly would not want such an achrayus. That’s why, based on the individual nature of every situation, a shidduch that you know lechatchila is against the parent’s wishes probably should be with Das Torah, to be sure that you are in the right to suggest and push such a shidduch.
WolfishMusings and potsandpans – thank you for your clarification. I am sensitive to this topic because my own son was redt a shidduch who my husband and I both felt would not be good for him. It is now three years later, and unfortunately we were right, and our son is suffering. We are supportive of him and are encouraging him to seek the help he needs so that he can get back on his feet, and pull himself and hopefully his marriage together, so that he can grow with this nisayon. From my perspective, I think that many of today’s youth entering the parsha, are just not ready to make such a decision on their own. It’s not like twenty or thirty years ago, when their was a maturity level that was reached before boys and girls started to go on shidduchim. Today, it’s a function of time, the girl comes home from seminary, or the boy from E”Y, and the question of whether or not they are ready is just not on the table. And, on the other hand, I know only too well how right you are that many parents today are completely out of touch with their children, and who they really are, implying greater maturity on the part of the child than the parent. For this reason, I stand by what I said, that this question is very complicated, and Das Torah should be consulted because of the individuality of every situation, calling for individual responses.
wolfishmusings and potsandpans – thank you for your clarification. My point was, as you both are saying, the boy/girl really does need to be in touch with das Torah to know that they are objectively doing their hishtadlus. I guess that I’m a little sensitive here, because my own son was encouraged to go out and marry a girl that my husband and myself knew was not good for him. The outcome – he unfortunately has come to understand how right we were, and he is trapped. As parents, we stand by him, and are encouraging him to seek the help that he needs to pick himself up, keep this marriage together, and grow with this nisayon. But there is no simple answer to this question, and it is true that many parents today are out of touch with their children. But there is another side to be considered, that many boys and girls who are in the parsha are temimusdik and naive and just not equipped to make such a decision on their own – like my son. A “top” yeshiva bochur who only cared about his learning and shteiging – and knew nothing about shidduchim, and was easily farfeert.
To Wolf and Anuron – I think that this inyan is a complicated one. I personally know of an incident where a boy wanted one thing and the parents wanted another. The parents were different than the boy and didn’t really know him, which frustrated the boy as he really wanted to get married and couldn’t find himself with the shidduchim that his mother suggested. He was known to some truly solid, yeshivish woman in the area who wanted to help him, and they found a girl who according to everyone’s opinion, was perfect for this boy. The women contacted the parents who refused the shidduch. These women were terribly upset and frustrated for the boy, so they contacted a Rov who told them that they must work with the parents, and were not to try to do anything without their consent.
This is the real end of the story.
It just so happens that a year later, both the girl and the boy were married to someone else.
Estherh – Samchainu keyimos inisonu – may you have a refuah shlaima, and may you see only brocha vehatzlocha in your life. We’ll be davening for you.
Did they get married?
Feivel, you are so right. When someone insults a person and the person is mevater, it is a tremendous sha’as ratzon where shomayim is open to the person’s bakoshos.
Whynotme – I’m a mother of yeshiva bochurim and clearly cannot comment on yeshivas. And no, all of my boys did not necessarily fit, though with proper hadrocha, each one has found his place in the olam of Torah. This is what I wanted to share with you – how critical it is for you to seek out daas Torah. You mentioned in your first post that your Rabbi doesn’t even know you. Is it at all possible for him to get to know you? Is he the kind of person that you may be able to approach? You sound like a mature boy, it is quite possible that you thought of this and felt that the answer is no. If you don’t presently know anyone who can help you, then maybe the question on the forum should also be, which Rav could you speak to? Is there someone that you can make an appointment to see, and would give you the time? Remember that once you are in the presence of a talmid chochom, you don’t need to give over all of the details. They can teich up the situation and with precise questions and thinking can teich you up as well, and help to guide you. I can’t stress this enough, our zchus Avos, tefillos and my husband’s hasmodo in learning (my husband works)may have motivated our sons, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Daas Torah that we received along the very bumpy and turbulent roads were invaluable in our meriting siyata dishmaya.
Do you know Rabbi Chaim Epstein? He is a Gadol in these inyanim.
Reading through all of your posts can help a person understand to what extent hilchos loshan horah can takeh be meakev the geula. These are all mitzvos d’oraysa, all of the mitzvos of bein odom lechaveiro – so what’s the problem? Why is it so, so hard, that after so many generations, we still can’t get it right? Even in our generation which is drowning in tzoro, how is it that people still feel that they can judge others (which is a common denominator in the above stories), and then speak? I guess that with the galus comes a lack of shlaimus within a person, and without shlaimus, of course, it is just too hard for the person to fix him/herself, and just so much easier to think he/she can fix the world outside. May Hashem bring every one of you, and all of klal Yisroel, a COMPLETE yeshua bekorov mamash.
speaktruth – how sad. How are you now? May you only see refuahs and yeshuas from now on.
chops – Matbucha
2 peppers, preferably not green, diced
1-2 chile peppers (optional)
2-3 plum tomatoes, peeled and diced
1/2 head of garlic, peeled and sliced or diced
Put diced peppers in two quart pot with a little bit of oil, it does not have to be extra virgin olive oil because it loses the taste over the cooking period. Saute over medium flame for about ten minutes, mixing every couple of minutes. Then lower the flame to low and allow the peppers to simmer, uncovered until they become very soft and limp (this could even take about half an hour, depends on the peppers). Once they are limp, add the diced and peeled tomatoes, together with the garlic ( I slice them, it tastes great), still uncovered on the low flame. Mix, and let it simmer for another 20-30 minutes until the tomatoes are cooked and the liquid has evaporated to about 1/2 the mixture. Chill and serve. It should fill about a 1 pint container. I believe that this is a Morrocan recipe, but is now pretty generic Mediteranean. Hatzlocha.
Trader Joes is a great store to buy fresh, healthy food, and they are more reasonable priced.
haveing rachmanus for yidden who stand in a nisayon is not the point. Support can be given in any number of ways. The true colors of this event were shown when a flier that was validated as authentic was handed out with Rabbi Heshel Shachter’s authentic signature on it (verified) and it was ignored. Rav Shachter is their own gadol. If they are not listening to their own gadol, then what exactly was the purpose of the meeting? How can the agenda of the organizers be trusted?
yankdownunder – try taking vitamin b complex to strengthen your metabolism, which in turn would help your immune system. If you are really interested in better general health, it usually starts from the digestive tract, in which case a good, strong acidophilus would be the place to start. I would be very interested in a thread on natural medicine.
tzippi, thanks so much for the information. I don’t know anyone on the SCD, and didn’t realize that it was helpful for colitis and severe celiac, I thought that it was only helpful for those on the spectrum.
Is Digestive Wellness a Health food store? What do you mean by “advanced dieters”? What’s the cookbook about? I’d be very interested in this place – maybe it’s worth a trip one Sunday. Where is it?
Gezuntheit – it’s so interesting that you’re asking about the special oats. My son has been complaining about the oats, and I really couldn’t understand it because I thought that oats should be ok. After doing just a little research (by the way, I found a website under yahoo health groups called “allergicjews” with some discussion on GF)I realized that you’re right – there are people that can’t tolerate it, even the ones like laras, controlled for cross contamination. I used the heavenly mills flour recently, which also claims to be “gluten free”, but I think, if I’m not mistaken, just means that they have the lowest gluten content. Now, he doesn’t wash on shabbos, because it just makes him too sick.
In the New York area, any Jewish health food store, and probably Monsey and Williamsburg, as the proprieter is a Chassidish woman from Boro Park. She has other products as well such as cakes and cookies. There is another brand of GF with heimish hashgocho, from Mrs. Katz (she’s from Monroe), and can also be gotten in Jewish health food stores. Her items are shehakol only, such as breads, cakes and cookies. even pizza dough. Heaven Mills challah is from oats. In the five towns/far rockaway area, these items can be found as well, in the kosher supermarkets. Both brands are terrific.
Gezuntheit – You’re right, they make great Challahs, and other products as well. I too would love to just network for ideas, recipes, etc.
Health – I’m trying to get the references. Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn held a one evening seminar on IBS and Crohns last year, and the upshot was – gluten intolerance. As I get more info, I will bli neder try to forward it.