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We could discuss the merits of one economic policy over the other, (Kidding! We would just attack various thinking processes with random cliches. Same thing politicians do when they try to comprehend economics.) but of course it is chessed to force the rich to cover for the poor. It would even be chessed for the rich to pay for the rich! Just it does not give anyone license.
How ever serious her davening is😉
We do not hold anything for goyim. There is not much literature on Jews telling non-Jews how to lead their lives. It mostly mentions being kind and humane, to all people.
Whatever It may be. Nature, science, government, or conspiracy, we are facing a very, very difficult year.
If one does not wear a mark too much, that is not such an issue. Do not go on and on defending it. Nobody asked the layman if masks work or if they are required. Clergy across the country are preaching about the ills of wearing masks. This is causing a further detachment from religion and religious leadership. For what?
It is unsettling that people come to shul and other people’s well-being is not on their mind and face.
To mark or not. The overwhelming Jewish question of the day. Right up there with all the other critical this that makes us observant.
Of our own sense of ignorant righteousness.
Dear Avi,
Those definitions of State and government, fit well with everything posted so far.
I liked your semantical argument. Seems solid.
You mixed me up with a different poster. I am praying for the best for the perpetuation of the State and it’s inhabitants.
Dear Always,
You misunderstood. I totally agreed with you. Maybe read my post again.
Those without masks, are mostly conformists following a few fundamentalists. With maybe one extremist.
You say your side. I can say mine.
If there people were inclined to listen to the government, they would not be protesting.
The question is on the mainstream media. And the answer is, whatever gets them a bigger story.
So here is a new question. Why do the pandemic deniers, never back themselves up? We are supposed to assume that it should not be a major disruption, because you do not care or know better?
Ha!
Dear Flowers,
A resident in a local hospital, just got it a second time. Fever and shortness of breath twice.
The odds of reinfection are almost the same as the odds of infection. Then the body will produce antibodies which would neutralize every infected cell. If some infected cells are not neutralized, they will reproduce ant the person is contagious. In the rare event that thousands of cells are infected, the patient will develop severe symptoms.
Dear Se,
This discussion is not about Zionism. I already wrote that that argument is more about a perspective of our history, than anything else. I have that list for the sale of simplicity. This conversation was about the possible cohesion of religion with supporting the State of Israel in the present day.
Dear Mentsch,
Who’s thinking is that? Second waves, are usually thought of as being worse. Because they start from multiple sources, instead of one. Which leads to a higher caseload, and a greater assortment of (miniscule) genetic variances. Also, it typically requires a much larger or longer effort to contain subsequent waves. See China and Israel and Europe. Without a shift in strategy, this wave could linger into January.
The bright side is, even if only some people take precautions it could help a lot to mitigate communal spread. Which leads to better outcomes. There is way more public knowledge about the virus. Including doctors and medics. And there are three medication known to combat Covid. Plus a dozen more possible ones. And we may be closer to a vaccine.
“Either way, we should not panic.”
For sure. I heard of some people who panicked themselves into Covid symptoms.
To use the Maharal as a litmus, most of today’s learners are Yerushalmi. Why is that surprising? There is little in our educational system that rewards ingenuity. Our two most common products, are the conformist and the fundamentalist. It is a testament to Our Holy Torah, that we have produced so few extremists.
Even more, if it is true, than by definition there has to be more answers. 😄
Dear Dovid,
It is true,
says you.
May I have
A reason or two?PS After I gave you my opinion that Trump is Obama on steroids, your answer fell apart. Unless you would have chosen to ignore me. Which you did not.
Dear Resident,
Medicare was all three on a smaller scale, before insurance lobbies wrecked regular coverage.
Dear Dovid,
Thanks for responding! But that is not a real answer. It is a generic one. The same could be said about any person, in any government position.
By the way, my biggest peeve with Trump is that he expanded on Obama’s overuse of executive powers. He campaigned for smaller government, and we got another oversized administration.
Dear Reb Yid,
Biden was a leading candidate for president three separate times. And, he won the primary elections over multiple candidates. Can you list more worthy politicians currently serving in Congress?
Biden unseated a well known incumbent in the U.S. Senate, before he turned thirty. Evidently, there is reason to vote for him besides for his long track record.
There is not any real concerns with a Joe Biden Presidency. Even if you disagree with some of his policies. If you do not want to vote for Trump, there is no “well, at least he is not Biden argument”. If you are voting for Trump, can you give some real reasons based on real life?
Trump himself cannot. Not because there aren’t any- rather it is just the type of person he is. I can make a solid pitch to vote for Trump. Can you?
Therefore the idea that we were done with corona in May is false. Even though every epidemiologist said we had just started at that point. I am waiting for the OP to explain himself.
Dear HaKatan,
‘Where do we go from here’ is the question that Yidden have asked over the years, after their communities were massacred. Moving on to the next country was generally not an answer, it was reality. The only possible answer is Eretz YIsrael.
The discussion could be about any move. If one had enough of city traffic, or social pressures, or lack of kosher pizza – anything, and decides as a Jew they have to move out, where would they pick? There really isn’t any place that tells the Wandering Jew this is your home, other than our own land.
The fact is, Jews did not move to Israel to eat pizza, homestead, or assimilate. For all these very Jewish activities America was [And probably still is.] a wiser choice. They chose Israel because they had enough of a Europe that was soaked in Jewish blood. And had no interest in soaking another continent. We would rather die in our own home, than live among strangers. Go find Rabbanim that advocated going to America over Israel in the nineteenth century.And the same is mostly true for the early twentieth.
Dear Besalel,
Your logic is not ironclad. While Hesroni is definitely post-Judaism (my term) it is an open debate if he is post-Zionist or anti-Zionist.
Dear Charlie,
None of the great men you mentioned, would be so petty as to be insulted by that statement. Conversations like this one, will feature broad language. Every logic that is used, will be in conflict with someone of stature.
I was just thinking what the backlash would be, if Biden said a MSNBC reporter was from CNN. And mixed up a rubber pellet with a gas can. I do not think even dementia could make Trump sound less intelligent.
A Reuters article on NYC listed these – and only these neighborhoods, as currently having outbreaks.
Kew Gardens
Edgemere-Far Rockaway
Williamsburg
Midwood, Borough Park, BensonhurstAnybody notice the ad with the scale?
We have four opinions here. 1) Due to it’s Zionist nature, the State is unraveling. 2) Zionism ended when the State was created. 3) Zionism and the State are the same problem. 4) The State is here for all Jews and that is to be respected.
I fudged a bit for cohesion. Therefore, I did not name the opinions. I want to point out worthy thought. Only #4 is supporting the state as is. And that opinion is irrespective of Zionism. So, Zionism is about what could be, not what is going on currently. Now, there is a separate debase going on if the Zionist ideal is a positive or a negative to the Torah ideal.
A nihilist would say there is no real argument here. Only fantasies or nightmares. But to have the argument in any meaningful fashion, would require an agreed upon understanding of our history in the diaspora.
I liked that😄
Dear HaKatan,
I have read Reb Elchonon, Reb Reuvain, and The Satmar Rav, ZY”A. My difficulty is [With the exception of bayos hazman which is more of a protocol for dealing with the state, than an assessment.] that the future they write about, did not really play out. This is not to say they where way off, it just is inconclusive. The debate about Zion seems to have no clear parameters. And to me, has kept returning to the same starting point. Yidden have had enough of their blood being spilled. Where do we, and where did they; in from here?
(Now, before you jump into the whole discourse, answer one point. Does it say anywhere that we have to enjoy the violence inflicted on our people? Nobody is disagreeing with the great internal strength our ancestors displayed. We mourn over it. We do not celebrate it.)
Dear HaKatan,
I bought the empty wagon. I gave up after the first section. His Judaism is on life support. It can not breathe on it’s own. A shame. It was an expensive book. And I hear, that he has some new information to add to the debate. Maybe one day I will finish it.
Dear HaKatan,
Who are the ones out to destroy Torah today? The last decade of turbulence around yeshivos and the draft, is the results of a court ruling. If you are pointing to The Israeli Supreme Court, I hear you. They are out to destroy Zionism too. Polls demonstrate that large segments of Israeli society are fine with letting students join the work force. Much of the army has no desire for drafting chareidi soldiers. What makes today’s problems more about Zionism than say, secularism?
Dear HaKatan,
The idea of subverting orphaned children was considered ‘enlightened’ in the West. But a lot of Zionists, even some that where not religious; were upset at the Jewish Agency over the Tehran children. If your point is that bigotry destroys Torah, than I applaud you. It is explicitly stated in our classical sources. Though it has nothing to do with Zionism. We could even use some introspection in all our communities.
Dear Health,
The statement you quoted from the OP is false. The FBI released the actual identity of the arsonist. Would it bother you for the Trump campaign to put outright lies on their ads? The riots are not in box suburbs. And it is not caused by the Democrats.
Dear Someone,
I never got the sense that the State of Israel is all knowing, or that it even pretends to be. What makes you feel that way?
What could be sad about an abbreviated davening?
Dear HaKatan,
Please expand your “the Zionists want to destroy Torah” argument. What does that even mean in the present day? Almost all Jews live in countries that allow the individual the right to worship as s/he pleases. If anybody has an idea of what authentic Torah sans Zionism looks like, let them profess such a belief. The glaring truth is that it is impossible to make a clean amputation. An absolute refutation of Zionism, will leave the objectivity of the Torah on life-support. Though it is tantalizing to rethink things without allowing any concessions to Zionism, it is impossible. Over a century of inconclusive debate, has consistently ended well before that line.
Maybe you have a better argument than anybody else before us. Our people have seen much upheaval since the Industrial Revolution. It is still premature to proclaim that Judaism is ahead of the industrial/technological curve. [The same could be said for humanity as a whole.] We are blind to the future. How can one claim that this-and-that, is bound to ‘destroy Torah’? There are so many statements here to ponder:
The slow pace of yeshivos.
The lack of gemara classes that are not daf yomi.
Our leaders increased activities in lay matters, preventing them from their ultimate task as religious leaders.
Uncontrolled use of technology.
Lack of enthusiasm in our schools.
Little inclusiveness among the various communities.
Ignoring the potential for outreach.This list could be endless. My point is, that there are so many glaring internal threats to our ability to sustain the Torah. Many have been discussed publicly. Yet, none are so glaring as to force the issue. They require a nuanced peek at the future. With a prudent mind.
So how do you so boldly claim, that Zionists want to destroy the Torah, when it has not been at all played out in history?
Dear Akuperma,
Where do you get you disease takes from? Why would a lockdown be used against a bubonic plague?
And, you spew all this garbage about the pandemic being contrived. When you are called out on it, you then disappear.
The staffer was putting on a comedy routine.
The politician said, “you’re a riot!”
The staffer took it ‘literally’.
Dear Duvid,
‘abolish’ is the wrong word. Prevented? I prefer something like hold off on teffilah B’tzibbur. But then again, Sanhedrin would abhor a good deal of what we hold precious.
Dear Yserbius,
Being attacked for wearing a mask.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
And Trump has made clear his distaste for anti Semitism. We could go around in circles now.
Do you have a reason to vote for Biden, other than he is not Trump?
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Trump left the Republican Party in the Nineties, because he felt it tolerated white supremacy. How many times does he have to speak about it? Here is an example of the same argument: Biden supports the anarchists inflicting damage across our cities, by not condemning it. I do not think this is logical.
Dear Health,
Why are you attacking the truth right after Rosh Hashanah? Trump did not balance the budget at all. And his tax cuts are a big part of that.
It is true that he had a lot of help wasting federal funds. It does not change the point. I think that he never really meant to balance the budget. It was only a campaign promise. If is not even talking about fixing the deficit now.
Dear Milhouse,
The story of Rav Yisrael Salanter is recorded in seforim.
This has become a real phenomenon. There have been mask attacks in real life. I fail to see the point in it. Maybe It has become like a tribal symbol.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
1)The virus would have wrecked the economy anyway.
2)There is blame all around on the pandemic.
3)Trump increased the deficit a lot of different ways. Not just tax cuts. And Congress helped him spend.
4)Enough of the encouraging anti Semitism. It is not true.