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God says simply, a man being with a man is an obimination,
It doesn’t say “hate everyone that disagrees with you dude” like wow your stretching the meaning a smidgeI hear you. I just don’t see why love and emotions have no sway as they are actually a very important part of life.
Without love, we cannot coexist, without kindness we cannot accept others and their imperfections
Without considering others needs we cannot create community force for good.
These are foundational principles of human life.
Therefore they are important as food is to living
As water is to the ocean. Love is a neccisary breathing part of reality and works within the framework of all living things.
Without love we are dead. Our hearts cannot beat. Our souls, cannot liveQwerty people are allowed to have different opinions about life. .the cool thing about life is that people have different perspectives of the same thing, giving more clarity and perfection to the whole picture. You can’t do that with one way of thinking. Sorry.
You want me to force myself to agree with you?
You didn’t bring much argument so simply I don’t.
I also have a perspective that is much wider then yours simply cuz I see things differently.
If you want to call that a “kofer”
Then your missing the point.
Take your fascist, extremism and drown it in the local river ok? ThanksI also think, honestly that this list, is a manifestation of all our collective sins.
The people we scorned who couldn’t measure up to our impossible standards. Whether material or spiritual, because we are so steeped in materialism we forgot our humanity.
The people we rejected, dehumanized because we thought they were beneath us.
The humiliation ritual of shidduchim, how we first gossip with the neighbors before we so much as give someone a chance, and all the cruel behaviors of the entire system.
How many people have we humiliated in the name of our impossible society “norms”
The poor person we humiliated degraded and persecuted. we are so rich the ivory tower is so tall, and our eyes have to look so far down to the person in a situation that we can’t possibly understand.
All these cruel actions have a collective reaction, and those cracks are clearly showing.
Maybe we deserve it. Perhaps. Maybe this is the price we pay cuz we won’t look within or change our ways.
One day, when we all have the courage to say no, no to the darkness within.
No to the arrogance, no to the side of ourselves that wants to put everyone else beneath the pedestal of isolationism we so badly live by,Ah. I thought _i_ was being negative. Now, I don’t see it as dramaticly as this person, but perhaps this person has more insight then me.
I just see cracks everywhere, where humanity has been placed by conformity to the degree we all are chasing the high of fitting in but not quite making it.
I think it’s time to just. Stop. Playing. The game.
Just plain stop.
Stop chasing stop begging for validation.
You can’t afford something. Say no.
This impossible grasping at acceptance is the death of our souls. The system wants to crush everyone alive. Just say no.
Stop humiliating ourselves. One by one when we walk out of the rubble of control. And step into the light of our humaness, our broken imperfection, we can put away the idol of conformity and social acceptance and reach out to the true creator of all things.
It takes humility and saying no, and listening to yourself, not the crowds to go back to the voice of reason Inside our hearts where we all know the truth.
That we are all unique, imperfect, fallable, human and individual with individual circumstances
When we wake up from the fog we might start to see some senseWhile I hear your point and it’s a good idea. On paper, this is like mamdani, people will actually just stop using the shadchan as fast as they are currently moving out of New York.
“even tho the Research was excellent” Research is not reality lol. Nobody will ever know if they are compatible until they meet. Maybe there shouldn’t be such gatekeeping and there would be no need for so much “checking” and so much “work”
It’s so fabricated my goodnessAshregg not everyone, actually most humans don’t operate like that.
Lol most people, not you of course cuz your a perfect robot, can’t live like that, simply because it feels like slavery. Again, the Torah was not written directly to us. But was written about our ancestors so we can gain knowledge and wisdom to guide us through reality.
God hides himself from the world to give us that free agency so we don’t feel confined to a doctrine or dogmatic control thinking.
If that makes you happy. Which I’m sure it does not lol. Then so be it but I don’t think humanity was designed to fallow that way. I think humanity was designed to fallow sense, wisdom, direction, morals, truth, discipline, quite in the exact format the Torah was originally written. But we don’t read the direct format anymore honestly and I think we have thus drifted far away from our own humanity and realistic thinking. That original format doesn’t subvert the self. Or ask you to give up the self for blind ideals. It guides the self, intact.
Your coming from a top down version of what the biblical text is trying to convey “whatever it says I listen” but that’s not how the Torah conveys itself. The Torah conveys itself in allagorical, story form so you constantly learn new and deeper wisdom Everytime you read it and as you live life its wisdom comes alive. More and more.
giving up their entire soul in order to fallow a “doctrine” and calling that virtue is litterally selling your soul to something you don’t fully understand. I don’t think that’s piousness I thinks that dishonesty. And everyone knows, maybe won’t admit it outwardly, but everyone knows when they are lying to themselves.
If thats what makes you happy and feeling more pios i cant help but think that you don’t have a grasp of your own inner workings of how humanity truly operates.
You are not living from your true self. You are operating from a fabricated part of what someone else decided you should be.
If that makes you “happy” so be it.You want to know why people aren’t perfect, first because we need those examples of what not to do. And we also need perspective in life which requires life to be _imperfect_ if we were carbon copies of the other, we wouldn’t accomplish or learn anything at all. Cuz we’d all be so picture perfect impossibly inhumane.
I have friends who I absolutely do not agree with their lifestyles and think their quite delusional, yet overall they are great people.
Because love transcends belief systems ideologies, and knowledge. Yes they are deluonsal in this one dimension of their life but does not mean we always have to reject the entire person. (Obviously within reason) Imperfection does not mean we need to reject everything and everyone or every single part of every person we meet.
Cuz life, people, do not and cannot conform to impossible standards. Cuz that’s not how life works.
Even tho I kind of understand you, it’s giving a bad message, but if he’s not spreading those beliefs during his comedy Im not sure it matters that much.
Just my opinionRebemes. I kind of understand where your coming from and I can see why you would find it appalling. I get it. But remember your lifestyle is very very disconnected from his making his beliefs very jarring for yours.
Your just very far away from the way he is and it makes sense you feel that way.
But people by nature are multidimensional..if you look at trump for such a brash example, he’s very jarring in his speech, he’s not polished most people did not like his beliefs or his past actions. But yet he still the best man for the job?
Why? Because perfection doesn’t always fullfil roles, character, life experience necessity does.
Now this isn’t the presidency but he’s just a comedian being hired for a role. Not because of his beliefs because thars what they need him for, for whatever reason.
People aren’t perfect. And if everyone conformed to our way of living in order to live nobody would be perfect enough to fulfill anything or get anything done in life.
People are multidimensional and sometimes very contradictory , but yet we can say we don’t agree with his beliefs and still enjoy his humor. Because we don’t need everyone to conform to our way we can just use them as example of what not to do.Always ask questions “quoting the original author is a big mialah”
Hmm say that to the commentators on the other thread that keep bashing me for quoting the actual text….hmm interesting how we use one way of thinking for some things then don’t apply that same logic to other things. That’s interesting.I don’t disagree it’s about the child but it’s also about what you can afford lol.
Chaim I absolutely agree with you. “The rich matter alot more then what you do” true except that it’s your life and _you_ get to decide. Stop playing, stop conforming. Say no.
Qwerty boohoo. I spoke out of line said something outside the box. So sad it must be. Maybe think about what I said instead of jumping down my throught.
What you don’t realize you are doing is. You decided your way is the truth and then your condescendingly looking down on everybody else why they don’t know the truth like you do.
Even if your very convicted in your beliefs it’s still not a realistic way of thinking as everybody has different life circumstances that has led them to different places in life giving them some rym or reason why they are not like you.
I think your attitude is very condensing and intolerant and sometimes threatening “they will be severely punished” by who? You?
Don’t blaspheme the name of God in the name of your false religion I think God might be very insulted at the way you treat people and might not look at _you_ very kindly.Love also requires descpline when neccisary qweurty but I’m glad your so bold to put words in my mouth
You have a point.
But your actually posting on the mesorah chat which is actually scrutinizing how broken telephone works and where we came up with all these random traditions.
I would say you are right but judging from this exact thread it seems it changed quite frequently over the past thousands of years.
Also our way of life is not exactly a true reflection of how they lived during the times of the bais hamikdosh or during the times of shlomo hamelech etc etcI hear you and your right it was written to us that wasn’t my point. It was written in third person context talking to a third party.
And yes it isn’t parables lots of times
But it is filled with stories, written in parabolic language to glean moral lessons and teach inherint truths written into the code of realityCase in point: “parable is a short, simple narrative using human characters to illustrate a single moral or religious lesson, functioning as an extended simile where the entire story points to one central truth. In contrast, an allegory is an extended metaphor in which nearly every character, object, and event symbolizes specific abstract ideas or real-world entities, requiring the reader to decode multiple layers of meaning throughout the narrative”
Reb emes. You need to take the exacting morals that carry such weight for you, and round them with realistic living. Yes your right it’s not technically correct because of his beliefs but he’s just a comedian so it’s ok.
They…whoever they arent thinking that deep and or they don’t hold your strict opinions, therefore their world won’t look the way you want theirs to look. Right?
We need to differentiate these things because it’s important not to try to put so much weight on controlling the narrtive. Relax. Life is not. That. Serious. At all.
It’s all ganna be….ok. ok?Modi is a comedian. It’s not that deep.
I hear alot of “conformity to our strict code of conduct is the only way to the truth”
Now I respect your beliefs but this obsession with my way or the highway is not allowing for nuance to enter the chat.
Every single person has a very unique life with very unique circumstances. You can’t force everybody to fit into one umbrella system
That’s just crazy.
_if_ the world actually worked that way we would all look exactly the same like a bunch of robots. Yet we don’t. Obviously and look around you, by the multitude of paths people take in life, there must be plenty of different ways a person can operate. Not just one.
Thinking there is only one is so intolerant and complelty disconnected from reality.
If we were open to a little more nuance it might be helpful until then there just will be this obsessive need to control all paths of life and conform conform conform
That’s crazy talk. It just doesn’t exist.
Maybe start thinking about nuance and differences of lifestyle like the stars in the sky each plays his roles.
I’m not saying I agree with everyone’s lifestyle or how they live, I don’t agree with everybody, but I can respect differences not try to change people to conform to one direction.
There is no one direction.
When you walk in forest and there is a fork in the road. Is there only one way to go? Nope there’s always going to be a few. And the same way people are all different it’s also going to manifest differently for everybody too.
I don’t see really what the point is if everybody was a picture perfect copy of the other.
It’s an impossiblity just like the sky is blue. So stop fighting and stop force conforming your will or beliefs on everybody else.
It’s stupidity already. Grow. Up. Wake upOur prayers and hearts are with you from all over the world
Seems it is we who need to change. And judging from their “bashing” it might be anger at the unforgivness we do not give anybody. Even ourselves.
Reb emes. I know I’m always bashing your side but I want to adress a little incongruicy in what you said. To make clear what is actually wrong here.
“Almost impossible to do unless every group is willing to accept the other”
But you said all that after first saying this:
“Then you see what some of their weddings look like. Always mixing secular and mixing secular and you end up having people that are mostly secular, even though their heart still Beats Jewish love for the land. In the more Ultra Orthodox circles all this mixing is unacceptable because they have seen the result”Do you think chariadim will ever except anyone, anyone at all outside their circles? Lol
See how the above two sentences contradict each other. First saying we need to accept everyone and then showing how unnacepting we are because of very strict norms. Seems to me the unnaceptance is coming from _within_
Not knocking just pointing out.
Change needs to come from the more extreme side.
As the more open side…..is more open by nature….I think what we are both doing is looking at it from different perspectives. I don’t think one is more wrong then the other, but I do think fallowing anything blindly without critical thinking, can lead a person down a path of shirking personal responsibility which is in direct contradiction of reality where moral reasoning is neccisary for responsible choices. Reality requires us to use critical thinking in all scenarios to be able to weigh what is the right and wrong decision in any given scenario. “becausee that’s what I was told to do” doesn’t always align with whatever is going on in life. And also can’t be an excuse because God doesn’t say anything directly to us. the torah is written in third person to a biblical people of the past thus its parables and guidance is meant to be internalized by virtue of its stories, moral direction and understanding of gods authority so that when we are in the grand scheme of a complicated life, its moral directions helps guide us through the complexities of all decision making. it does not in any way stop a person from free will moral reasoning which is neccisary for dealing with all different scenarios in real life but it adds wisdom and discernment and guidance through the trajectory of life. It is a book that is internalized by virtue of reading it not because it “says” so in threatening do or die manner but because it’s wisdom lives within us as we live.
It doesn’t override personal responsibility it guides it.
Not sure if I’m making senseSorry ashreg didn’t see that you answered me. Again. Truth is only true if it passes the scrutiny of truth.
God says to be mindful of fallowing _moral code_ cuz there are great consequences in not doing so.
The rules are only by definition the truth because they _are_ true not because they are written in the book. Or any book.
The book codafies morality and other rules, not the other way around. That means it’s mirror of reality, not because it says so because it is.
Your coming from an authority perspective. It is written therefore it must be true
I’m coming from the opposite way, it mirrors reality by being true therefore it is true.
These are two different starting points.
The reason why it was given not at the creation of the world’s is because humanity needed a guide. Thus its not about authority but about guidance
Everything written there in is good sense to fallow.
The Torah is a mirror of reality. Exactly.
For example…. it says the sins of the father will be passed down 7 generations, this is not only because God will punish you but also because things are passed down geneticly and metaphysically for 7 generations sometimes 4.
The Torah codafies what reality already is. And also gives much more in depth guidance to those who do listen.
Also. It doesn’t say “listen” it says “hearken”
Which means something much deeper then listen. hearken is a word used for “you shall hearken to my words because they are good for you”
There is a huge difference between listen and hearken.
Everything written in the Torah still respects the will of the person. And uses moral guidence sense and wisdom to guide a person’s nature.
It does not force. It confirms.
Literally definitions without wisdom misses the intent behind the words.Pekak I understand where you are coming from but like broken telephone if the actual message gets watered down to the point that it becomes agenda driven and doesn’t respect the actual translation anymore maybe it’s time we go back to the original intent.
Also I don’t think when they were “passing it down through that shurah of people the message was meant to get watered down to the point it doesn’t respect the actual text?Ok I can use another word: controlling/threatening/fear mongering. It’s unnecessary
Qweurty I’m glad you want me to get lost, now I understand your motive but not sure I will. Ok?
Qwerty I said let’s make sure we are translating the rules _correctly_ if you want to call that pick and choose. Great. You can’t read then clearly, can you. Also if your going to accuse me of “pick and choose” you pick and choose what to take out of context to push your extreme dogmatic agenda. Control for you is how you operate. I don’t believe control comes from a Godly source. Fear/control/dogma/extremism
What does those things reproduce? Unhealthy fearful people
If the Torah was a guide for mankind don’t you think it would find the most operative way for someone, a human, to have robust health, emotionally/physically/ spiritually. Exactly. That means the rules need to be wholesome and align with how humans operate
Discipline/love/principles/understanding/authority/truth/wisdom/כִּי־יִפְלָא מִמְּךָ �”ָ�’ָר לַמִּשְׁפָּת �’ֵּין �”ָּם לְ�”ָם �’ֵּין �”ִּין לְ�”ִין וּ�’ֵין � ֶ�’ַע לָ� ֶ�’ַע �”ִּ�’ְרֵי רִי�’ֹת �’ִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ וְקַמְתָּ וְעָלִיתָ אֶל־�”ַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר־יִ�’ְ�–ַר יְ�”וָ�” אֱלֹ�”ֶיךָ �’ּוֹ
Translation: “If a matter too hard for you in judgment arises between blood and blood, between plea and plea, or between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God shall choose.”וּ�’ָאתָ אֶל־�”ַכֹּ�”ֲ� ִים �”ַלְוִיִּם וְאֶל־�”ַשֹּׁפֵט אֲשֶׁר יִ�”ְיֶ�” �’ַּיָּמִים �”ָ�”ֵם וְ�”ָרַשְׁתָּ וְ�”ִ�’ִּי�”וּ לְךָ אֵת �”ְּ�’ַר �”ַמִּשְׁפָּט
Translation: “And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge who shall be in those days; and you shall inquire, and they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment.”וְעָשִׂיתָ עַל־פִּי �”ַ�”ָּ�’ָר אֲשֶׁר יַ�’ִּי�”וּ לְךָ מִן־�”ַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר יִ�’ְ�–ַר יְ�”וָ�” וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת כְּכָל־אֲשֶׁר יוֹרֻךָ
Translation: “And you shall do according to the tenor of the sentence which they shall declare unto you from that place which the LORD shall choose; and you shall observe to do according to all that they shall teach you.”עַל־פִּי �”ַתּוֹרָ�” אֲשֶׁר יוֹרֻךָ וְעַל־�”ַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ תַעֲשֶׂ�” לֹא תָסוּר מִן־�”ַ�”ָּ�’ָר אֲשֶׁר יַ�’ִּי�”וּ לְךָ יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל
Translation: “According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.”“If a matter too hard for you in judgment arises between blood and blood, between plea and plea, or between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within your gates”
Does not translate to every halachic issue that you come across in daily life lol.It’s about disputes between family and controversy that cannot be figured out among the specific people that are involved in those disputes.
Please read the text in context instead of pulling out sentences to push some control agenda thanks