oomis

” Women may not dance when men see them.”

So please explain Tu B’Av to me, then. This was a minhag of frum young unmarried women to go out in the fields on that day, and dance in front of the young men and find shidduchim ON THEIR OWN!!!!!!!!

A person may be yotzai learning (I think) by reciting krias shma. Is one who learns an hour called an exessive chumra?”

No, ZK, because every second of learning, a person is acquiring the s’char mitzvah of learning (v’hagisa bo yomam valalilah). He may be yotzi with Shma, but he actually loses out by not doing more. That is not an excessive chumrah. You are comparing apples with oranges.

BTW, I say Tehillim every day, and I do not recall anywhere at any time in my life poking fun at anyone for not doing so. That would be incredibly arrogant of me.

I try hard not to put people down for what I may perceive as their lack in doing something. I am more concerned in praising them for that which they actually do, rather than castigate them for that which they do not. I am delighted, however, if in some small way because of me, you took on an additional chumrah. I am always glad to be of help to someone in need of more motivation to strengthen themselves where they feel weak.

Sam2, I understood your points quite well. They stand on their own merit.

I respect all working women, whether they work in the home or out. I would point out that most of the women whom I know who work ouside, DO have housekeepers/nannies who watch their kids and keep the house and laundry in order for them. Yes,they have cooking and shopping to do, but so do the women who stay home and are invovlved in child care all day. No one on either side is sitting and eating chocolate bon bons all day. They are both important aspects of the same womanhood.

Shouldn’t we Torah Jews show we have modernized, upgraded, our Torah performance? Shouldn’t we show the world we are a savvy, modernized nation? “

We are not in disagreement about that. Where some people and I might view things a little differently, is in the notion that our “upgraded” (read: excessive chumrah-filled) performance is a better one solely by virtue of its strictness. Hashem never asked of us to be machmir, but to follow the Din. The Torah He gave us was and is perfect to begin with. The danger in some chumros is ONLY that when one is accustomed to them, one starts to believe the chumrah is the ikkar shel halacha, when in fact the chumrah was never required of us in the first place. And when that belief becomes pervasive, it also becomes divisive, as each Yid tries to outfrum the next. We are a beautiful palette, all on the frum continuum, and when all of us recognize that about each other and respect even the “bare minimum” observance as being a frum yid, I think Moshiach will be ready to come.

The bare minimum Torah one has to uphold. “

Not that I tell any Yid what to do, but the fact is that what you call “the bare minimum” IS the halacha. Otherwise, one is NOT following the halacha as directed by Hashem. That is what some people tend to forget. Following additional strictures/Chumros to help people who might feel they are too weak to otherwise uphold the law and therefore cannot maintain the bare minimum, DOES work for those people. But those who follow that bare minimum are not reshaim, though they clearly are perceived as less observant Jews. They are also shomrei Torah u’mitvos, and we should not forget that.

ZK, I am really sorry to hear that. I hope she comes back again.

Haleivi – interesting. Thanks for the information.

“Later on, the innkeeper’s daughter came home and showed them a certificate she had won for being a great singer. R’ Yisrael asked her if she could demonstrate her great ability.”

Uh oh, I feel another kol isha thread coming on…

Never happened – but what a great story it was! There is a show on TV now (for those who watch, and for those who watch but claim not to) called TOUCH. It stars Kiefer Sutherland (of “24”) as the father of an autistic son who can discern events through numbers, and gives his father the numbers. The father, who wants to be able to communicate with his son (who never speaks), uses the numbers to find out what his son is trying to warn him about. The story is so convoluted and interconnected, but by the end, you see where it is all leading. The irony is similar to the urban legend posted here.

I am utterly opposed to mixed seating. It is best if all the seats are coordinated.

“While your posts are well written, what annoyed me was that you admit that today’s day people are concerned with this nonsense, yet you think it’s fine for someone to write an article encouraging the nonsense. Of course, it’s true that girls should take care of their appearance when they are in marriageable age, and it’s a mother’s job to make sure that that happens. I believe most do. There are those that don’t. If she just said what you said she would be wise to put on a little makeup, comb her hair nicely, and wear attractive clothing, I highly doubt the backlash would be the same, and if it is indeed as mild as that, then I admit my criticism is misplaced. And then I don’t understand why you call it an unfortunate attitude of today’s day. My guess is this has always applied.”

I don’t think it’s fine for either this to be the prevailing attitude OR for such an article to NEED to be written. The fact is that she was commenting abotu what she observed. That was her right. She feels that the girls need to fahpitz when meeting the people who may be a strong deciding factor and have great impact on their marriageability. Can we agree that all girls, beautiful, plain, and homely (by subjective criteria, always) should make the most of what Hashem gave them?

It was never suggested that ANY girl get the type of plastic surgery enhancement that was mentioned. A nose job, or fixing a receeding chin, is not the same as getting liposuction and altering the shape of things that bochurim should not be even looking at. And btw, that is not what Mrs. M. said. She was talking primarily about her own nose job, and suggesting that if a big nose is holding a girl back from being redt shidduchim, that she should not be afraid of the possibility of correcting it surgically. She did not advocate for plastic surgery across the board. I believe she might have stated that her nose was hindering her own shidduch situation, and she was so happy with the end result.

I believe this attitude is new, in the sense that when I was dating, no mother would have DARED to ask for a picture of the girl OR boy. A blind date was just that – no forwarning. At least those girls were being set up. Nowadays, there has been so MUCH emphasis on looks that we have an epidemic of frum girls with eating disorders, trying to become the size that has taken the palce of NORMAL. I think it is sick. But I also cannot hide my head int he sand. It is a fact of life that this is what is being normatized in the frum world. Until the Rabbanim and the Roshei Yeshivah instruct their bochurim to actually look beyond the “look” of a girl, the situtation will unfortunately remain the same as it is today. I do not think it is great to encourage this nonsense, but it is here to stay, at least for now, and you need to deal with life as it is, not as you wish it were.

“I didn’t read the original article, but what people write, tells you exactly what they think. Nobody writes a statement, and then says, I don’t really agree with what I wrote. They write exactly what they think is correct.”

Computer, with all due respect, If you did not read it, read it first, and then comment. You speak from a place of partial information and heresay. She wrote what she thought, on that you are correct. She THINKS that when a girl comes to a shidduch meeting specifically for the purpose of meeting the women who will be judging her as good enough for their sons, she would be wise to put on a little makeup, comb her hair nicely, and wear attractive clothing. SHE IS 1000% RIGHT. Unfortuantely we have allowed the system to become very shallow and judgmental based on LOOKS. I did not make it that way. Mrs. Mandelbaum did not make it that way. The fact that you replied to my post as you did, proves that you do not understand either her point or my own. And that is the problem.

I personally do not like the idea of plastic surgery. it is invasive, and not without risks. But would you argue that many otherwise plain or even homely young women who underwent it, did not emerge more attractively, which had a positive impact on both their dating and their self-esteem? I never said women should be trophies for their husbands. I said that the reality today is TRAGICALLY that guys want trophy wives and are more concerned with the dress size than the size of the heart. It’s harsh to hear that, true, but it has become more and more obvious in this day and age, that this is exactly how shidduchim are being redt. The so-called desirable girls are getting the dates first, because if a mother sees three pictures of young women, and two are plainer than the third, she will look at the prettier one first, and agree to that shidduch, if all else is equal.

Stop blaming the person who made this observation. The fact that you don’t like what she had to say, does not mean she was mistaken. I don’t like it any better than you do, but it is what it is.

Computer 777, you would be shocked to know how VERY many frum girls DO get plastic surgery, and just do not publicize it. It makes me feel upset that our young girls are in this position (that they have to compete with each other), but in any competition, you need to know your target audience and within reason, do what it takes to get the job. And don’t we after all, refer to the Shidduch profiles as resumes, and the contact info as references (both concepts are bothersome to me)? Well, when you have made a strictly social venture into a business one, it would only make sense when there is more than one candidate for the “job” that the candidates should all put their best feet and faces forward. And that is what the article was saying.

(Computer 777)” A size 2 instead of a size 8? Are you kidding? That is sick!! Get plastic surgery? That’s sick, too! I would understand that one individual can have such facial features that plastic surgery would indeed be suggested, but to come home from such a event, and suggest it for several, uh uh, that is extremely shallow. Such shallowness has no place in a Jewish home.”

That is not exactly what she or I said. This concept is an unfortunate progression from the actions of the mothers of the boys, and worse yet, from the boys themselves (who should not even be knowing what a girl’s dress size is). You are right – it IS sick! Plastic surgery was not suggested for several – it was suggested that if it was NEEDED, a girl should not feel hesitant about it. Mrs. Mandelbaum went on to painfully reveal her own past issue with feeling unattractive, which encouraged her to have rhinoplasty, I believe. That had to be a very difficult admission for her to make publicly. I am the one who is shocked, that anyone has failed to understand her point. It is her observation and commentary on the reality of the situation today. She wasn’t saying anything (re: putting on makeup)that a mother who wants her child to look her best, would not tell her to do for a job interview, much less a shidduch meeting. I admit that plastic surgery is extreme, but she was speaking to the issue of specific people, and not as a general rule. It SHOULD be different by Yidden. But sadly, it is NOT.

For all those who are so intent on a woman getting shot rather than hugging a man, would you feel the same way if it were your daughter? I am curious. It is easy to be theoretical, but when push comes to shove, though someone might prefer to be killed rather than to submit to forcible relations, I would be surprised if they felt the same way were they or someone they loved, forced merely to hug someone.

One who is raped chalilah, does not get put to death by Jewish law (though in Muslim law, the father can honor-kill his own daughter for being raped). If the chiyuv/obligation was to be killed rather than transgress, would it not apply in such a case? The fact that it does not, makes me think that certain actions do NOT obligate one to die rather than do them. Shaking someone’s hand might fit that category. Hugging, too. I am NOT advocating doing either of those things or any other type of arayos, which are clearly 100% assur. I just have a feeling of disconcertion that anyone would think that being forced to hug someone against the will with a gun to their head, is the same as having non-marital relations with someone who is not permitted to you to marry.

I note the various comments that were made to me, and take them under advisement. Thank you.

Yitta Halberstam Mandelbaum (?) used to write an excellent column for the Jewish Press for many years. I think she also is connected with the Small Miracles series, if memory serves.

You may think she was an idiot, but I believe (and my kids and I have argued this ad nauseum), that what she wrote was correct, if extremely bold, and an extremely sad commentary on our present Shidduch world. She was misunderstood, in my opinion. I read the exact same article that everyone else did. This is what I got from it:

She went to a singles event that was specifically designed to introduce young single women to potential future mothers-in-law (why the boys were not likewise subjected to this ill-advised sexist meeting, I do not know). So all the girls there were there to be paraded before and IMPRESS the women who would be making the decision over whether or not a given girl was “good enough” for her precious boychik. Mrs. Mandelbaum who was invited to be one of the mothers, expressed her deep dismay at seeing how so many girls did NOTHING to enhance their appearance (and clearly she felt they were in need of it). They had little or no makeup, did nothing with their hair, wore clothing that wasn’t appealing… the very essence of what NOT to do when trying to appeal to a future mother-in-law, especially in this day and age when such ladies are looking at scores of photographs from shadchanim and rejecting possibly the sweetest girls in the world, simply based on their appearance.

Mrs. Mandelbaum did not say she thought this was fair, or good, or right. She was simply making a VERY realistic observation about the situation and tried to offer a likewise realistic suggestion on what needs to be done about it. Everyone who came down hard on her was basically shooting the messenger. She never said she agreed that people should be preoccupied with looks instead of inner beauty. She was merely stating the obvious. It is a very competitive shidduch world, and every girl needs to give herself a competitive edge. The part that got most people who were upset so upset, was in saying that they should go so far as to have plastic surgery, if necessary (as she admittedly did, with great success).

In her opinion, if the ONLY thing holding a girl back from looking and feeling more attractive (and therefore acting more confidently)and getting her more dates, is a correctible facial flaw (that makes her less attractive to the people who are making decisions about whether or not she will be redt to their son), when she has the ability to fix that flaw, whether with cosmetics or in more serious cases, plastic surgery, she should not be afraid to take the steps to change the situation. Many people took umbrage with that, but they fail to acknowledge to themselves that this is the way things are now, like it or not. We don’t have to like it, but we need to cash a reality check and stop hiding our heads in the sand when we have brought this on ourselves.

I ALSO believe in inner beauty, but the sad fact is that who is going to bother to get to know that girl’s inner beauty if they won’t give her a chance, because she doesn’t take pains to groom her outer beauty? All girls do not need to look like models, but a little lipstick and mascara, as well as a flattering hairstyle can make a huge difference. And if a girl has bad teeth and a huge nose, orthodonture and POSSIBLY some rhinoplasty might be in order. It makes no difference at this point in time whether it is right or wrong. She can stand on her principles and be “right,” or she can level the playing field and make herself more dateable and appealing.

I think the negative reactions to this article were more of a testament to the fact that we HATE that the shidduch process has come to this state (that plastic surgery should even be a consideration for anyone). It should not be that Bnos Yisroel need to enhance themselves in order to find a husband. But in spite of the expression that all Bnos Yisroel are beautiful, the fact is that is simply not true. Many girls benefit from a little help on the outside, so that others take the time to get to know their beautiful middos. It is naive to think otherwise, distasteful as that thought might be.

We no longer live in an era when Yeshivah bochurim will marry anyone their parents arrange for them, regardless of looks. They (and their mamas) in unprecedented numbers want size twos who dress in a shtotty manner, come from money, and will be trophies for them. Yes, there are always exceptions B”H, but I also know for a fact from personal experience in trying to redt a shidduch or so, just how many mothers of boys (who are not such groysah metzias in the looks department, themselves) reject perfectly wonderful girls without ever telling their sons about the shidduch, because the girl is too plain, too short, too fat (a size eight, nebbich!), or too whatever they are shallow enough to not like. This is the system in place today, we did this to ourselves and to our children, and now we are paying the price for allowing such nonsense to proliferate in the frum velt. That does not mean that Mrs. Mandelbaum was wrong. She was merely an observer of this human condition, and offering a realistic response to the immediate problem at hand. She should not be castigated for her observations. They were very SADLY right on target.

Good point Sam2. But while I personally disagree with many things said by certain posters, I believe they are articulate and intelligent. Nonetheless, your point is well-taken.

My little granddaughter asked me why I made a “schissel” challah.

Good looks are a very subjective issue. The Torah is not subjective.

Itche, ok, I did not recall his other post. I still feel, for the benefit of the many people who are in the CR who may be less familair with soem expressions, that if the purpose is to inform and educate, it helps to use the terminology that is best understood by all (or use both the Hebrew AND the English meaning). Just in case… We DO want to help people to understand the point we are making. Some people do not know what a “pnuyah” is.

This is actually quite a productive thread.

So I guess Oomis took that place “

Only on-line, my friend. In person, I am irreplaceable 😉

“It’s almost like someone who didn’t grow up frum saying “When did this Shabbos thing start, it didn’t exist when I was growing up?”

No, with all due respect, it really is not. Shabbos is one of the Aseres HaDibros. Shmiras Negiah is not as beferush in the Written Torah. The W”T assers certain UNIONS between specific individuals, most notably incest and adultery. But it does not spell out what forms of contact are assur beyond “ish ki yishkav…” and then just lists the people who may not cohabit.

Yet the punishment for a man who seduces a virgin who is not halachically engaged (me-u-reses) to another man (as opposed to “engaged” as we understand the concept today), is far less severe than for one who commits adultery or has relations with a girl who is halachically engaged (as opposed to what we call “engaged” today). These halachos are spelled out in the Gemarah, but they are certainly not clear from the Torah that we lein, whereas Shabbos is upfront a mitzvah of zachor v’shamor. yes, we learn exactly what that entails from the Oral Law, but we know from the outset that keeping Shabbos IS the law.

By negiah, we are not so certain from the W”T what that means, only that certain physical relations are assur. I don’t know if I am expressing myself well here, but I feel it is a subtle difference.

“OOmis -Did you ever go through a procedure like the band or bypass?”

No thankfully not, but a little more than a dozen of my friends, family, or good acquaintances have (Almost an epidemic, it seems). Only two of them have been successful in terms of keeping the weight off and recovering with few ill side effects. The VAST majority had bad – to terrible post-op experiences, because a)at times there are just less than desirable results in any surgery b)they were not willing to make the dietary and lifestyle changes needed for a successful outcome c)they were left looking twenty years older, and had digestive problems to boot, and d)they lost weight but had no energy. Three were diabetic, and while the weight loss did help to lower the sugar somewhat, they still needed to remain on medication and watch their sugar intake.

I would never put myself through such a procedure. The discipline needed to follow through AFTER the procedure, is so similar to what is needed to lose weight WITHOUT the procedure, that I can’t see someone willingly doing this without giving a REAL and honest attempt to diet. Only the patient himself or herself, can be honest enough to know if they REALLY tried a healthy diet. Most of us who need to diet, don’t stick to it. Once they have the surgery, they have no choice, and that’s the attraction. Also, the fact that the weight loss is very rapid, gives them chizuk, but it really is a false sense of chizuk, unless they make permanent life changes.

Having had stomach surgery to remove a tumor that in essense effectively “lap-banded” me (prior to being diagnosed, I could not eat more than a few spoonsful of food without feeling overly full, which is how we discovered the tumor), I would be unwilling to go through a procedure that put me in that state ALL the time. It was EXTREMELY unpleasant and uncomfortable, and I don’t think many people going through with this really understand what it will be like. Feeling nauseous all the time is very nasty, too.

Of the people I know who did this, only a very few really benefited from it (so far) for over a year. The rest have either gained back their weight, and then some, or look awful and haggard. Overly rapid weight loss, does not allow the body time to adjust, either. One of them has had to have three plastic surgeries/tummy tucks, to get rid of the excess skin (they didn’t tell him about that problem). Also, he is diabetic, so he healed poorly and very slowly (a very common problem in surgery with diabetics).

Bottom line, I GET why some people feel the need to do this, and if they are happy with the result, kol hakavod, and I am happy for them. But to take it lightly and advise it lightly, is irresponsible, in my humble opinion.

Im not being “snobby”

I never said that expression to anyone, much less you.

I would braid it first (after the first rising)then freeze it.

People who are not banded might nonetheless have close friends or family whom they have watched go through this, and are eminently qualified to comment.

It works for many, but just as many have serious side effects (nutrient malabsoprtion, excessive vomiting, band slippage, perforation, embolus, etc.). I knwo a husband and wife who had the surgery done together, and though they initially lsot a great deal of weight, their excess flab had to be surgically removed months after the initial surgery, and then they gained virtually all the weight back.

As to the diabetes “cure” well I would not believe that in a “few days” a condition which requires a lot of medication is completely reversed overnight. Yes, weight loss will absolutely help a diabetic, but it takes weeks, not days to see that change. Any change is probably because the person is eating far fewer carbohydrates and calories. Without a lap band, the same thing will happen if a healthy low-carb and good carb diet is followed.

Last resort for someone who has tried everything else and is in danger from other health issues related to the obesity. It should not be taken lightly, it is still major surgery with all the risks attendant. It can only work for someone highly motivated to stick to the food plan necessary (and such a motivated person should really try a real diet first, because with or w/o the lap band, they will have to alter their eating habits for life, and it is easier to not have to recover from surgery). That said, it is a godsend for many people.