Forum Replies Created
My name is Sam (and that’s who l am).
The “Decaffeinated Coffee” forum says it only has 87 topic and only links to 2 pages. But it has more than triple that many topics and many more pages after page 2, with threads that cannot be accessed to since there is no link to it.
Actually one of the bigger problems facing us today.
You must be talking about kulos. Or so-called kulos.
No one would know of the “yes”, except the two parties themselves. So there is no stigma.
Most Accurate: Derech HaMelech
Thanks Mod80, I didn’t know that stuff either.
Now what’s the difference between a skirt and dress?
BPT – I find the opposite to be true.
memo, if the manicure place does men, even if no frum men would have come, non-frum or non-Jewish men would. So how could you be there?
willi previously said she is divorced.
Okay, it was too harsh, I apologize. Perhaps you can allow me to restate my point respectfully. Haifagirl, why do you criticize the modern usage of the word gender, but refer to yourself as a girl rather than woman?
Considering haifagirl is the self-appointed language police here,…
GAW: Your public cynicism of Gedolei Yisroel is duly noted.
The biggest red flag of all is if her dress doesn’t cover her knees when sitting or she it otherwise not tznius.
Who is Oscar? Is this named after Oscar Schindler?
Anyways, seems to be awards going out.
Most Missed: squeak & Dr. Pepper (joint award)
If he doesn’t learn shtark, run away as fas as you can.
If she doesn’t have chein and chesed, run away as fast as you can.
AZ, back to something you can address… What is the current age gap? And with the current efforts, how long do you think it will take until it is reduced to a one year gap? Will the effort help the girls currently older?
Also, has anything developed on the idea of having guys marry younger, where it is actually happening where it hasn’t previously? Which other ideas — in addition to focusing on older girls — has already seen progress?
AZ: Thanks for your additional comments.
As far as data and statistics, we both now none exists that is accurate — not even for here and now in the Orthodox communities in America, let alone pre-war Europe. But we also now family sizes in pre-war Europe were generally very large, easily 10 – 12 children and often notably more than that. We also know they tended to marry young. And it was also not so uncommon for significantly older men to marry much younger women (something that today is very rare.)
Again, my point isn’t about the last 30 or 40 years in America, but the last hundreds of years in Europe.
In any event, I wanted to respond to those points. I’ll accept what you just said — that you no longer wish to discuss this particular aspect and will leave it at that.
So what you are indicating is that since there are slightly more males than females in the population, it is okay to have a slight average age gap of one year older males in shidduchim.
Frum family sizes in Europe were on average larger than the average frum families in America.
What I am suggesting is:
a. The previous generations since Rabbeinu Tam’s Cherem would have had the same issue we have.
b. Was anything done about it?
c. Did it work itself out on its own for the past 1,000 years in the Ashekenaz communities?
d. Were there hundreds of thousands of frum woman who had no men to marry for the past 1,000 years?
The people who disovered the Age Gap problem (actually 2 actuaries) where probably hiding together with the starters of Hatzalah, Misaskim, Bonei Oilam, Yad Eliezer, etc. etc.
All of these functions (Hatzalah, Misaskim, etc.) were provided by the Jewish community for over a thousand years. The name might not have been Misaskim, but the services were rendered under whatever name. What NASI does is new and has never been previously done. Yet the issue ostensibly existed for 1,000 years in the Ashkenazic community.
As an aside Population growth has exploded bli ayin harah in the last 30 years.
And it has exploded for the last 1,000 years with our 10 – 12 children families for the past 1,000 years in Europe. Just looking at America for the past 30 years to compare is incorrect. The point is 1,000 years not 30 years.
If you agree with that there is a massive probelm-and you do.
I do. But would still like the above explanations to better understand the problem.
It is 9,000 guys to 9,000 gals with 1,000 gals left over.
My example was predicated on their being an exact even number of guys and gals. You can’t have 1,000 left over if all 9,000 got married.
When you meet Rabbeinu Gershom please ask him.
What happened in the 1,000 years SINCE Rabbeinu Gershom? Where was NASI all that time?
In addition this age gap induced problem is a relatively new phenamona (case in point-how many siblings did your parents and their friends have vs. how many families these days have 8/9 children).
In Europe we had more children than in America. A frum family in Europe with “only” 6-7 children (rather than the more typical 10-12) would be considered modern. (That’s a joke.) But any way you slice and dice it, we had more children in pre-WWII Europe (and pre family planning possibilities) than now.
I am responding to popa, taking up his offer to respond to the 100k/90k riddle on the Age Gap thread thereafter:
Why when you look in a mirror, is the right and left inverted but not the up and down?
When the plane of the mirror is horizontal, the mirror does reverse up and down. Just think of the upside down landscape you can see in the surface of a lake.
Left and right are the only directions which are described relative to the observer. Up and down (and north, south, etc) are independent of whichever way you’re facing. When you look in the mirror, up, down, east and west are still in the same place. But you read printed text from left to right – not east to west – hence the problem with ‘mirror writing’.
A mirror doesn’t reverse left to right either as you will see with an asymmetric object. Imagine the mirror is one of those impression taking toys that had a dense number of pins in which are pushed back on contact and retain the 3D shape. Now imagine pressing your body into it and step back. The illusion is, because we are roughly symmetrical, that there has been a left/right inversion. The reality is your right side is on the right side of the image.
One way to start to get a handle on this is to take a piece of paper with your name written on it. Look at it in the mirror and it will be reversed. Now turn it vertically. You will find that the lettering is reversed, but it is not upside down. That should start to give you a clue as to what is going on. Now take your finger and point to the first letter in your name, both on the paper and on the mirror. Notice that there is a one-to-one correspondence — if the letter appears on the left hand side of the paper from your perspective, it appears on the left hand side of the mirror.
Take a piece of thin, translucent paper and write your name on it. Stand in front of a mirror and hold the paper up so that you can read the paper normally. Now look in the mirror. You are seeing the back of the translucent sheet in the mirror, and the word is not reversed — it looks completely normal. Now turn the paper over and look at it in the mirror. It is reversed, but so are the letters on the back of the translucent sheet. Note that you turned the paper over — you reversed it!
In other words, the reason why letters look reversed in a mirror is because you are presenting them to the mirror reversed. The reason why someone coming toward you can read the message on your T-shirt is because the letters on your T-shirt are reversed (from your perspective) when you wear it. If you printed the words on the T-shirt so that you could read them (from the inside of the shirt), the words would look reversed to an approaching person but they would look great in a mirror.
popa_bar_abba: Can you answer this “riddle”? I would be most grateful.
AZ: I understand that there more girls in the shidduch pool than boys at any given time, because of the discussed reasons. That still doesn’t resolve the riddle of how 100,000 guys are marrying 90,000 gals.
And I specifically said I’m all for NASI doing it now. My question is WHY wasn’t there a NASI like effort for the past 1,000 years, since Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom was enacted. There must be a good explanation.
To better rephrase my hangup with the math, I see it works on paper as popa_bar_abba ably demonstrated above (that every single guy can get married and a certain percent of gals cannot when there is an average age gap) and accept that it’s a fact. But my mind is having trouble registering the math that over a period of 200 years, there being (say) 100,000 guys and 100,000 gals, and every one of the 100,000 guys got married while only 90,000 gals got married – and the for the other 10,000 gals there are no more guys left. How did 100,000 men marry 90,000 women?
Correction: Actually the wars would have even further exacerbated the age gap issue during those years, so even that cannot be cited as a mitigating factor.
Thanks for the math lessons popa and AZ. I understand the math now, but somehow the fact that every single male born in the past 200 years got married, and there are — every year — X percent of females who have no one left to marry, even though there is always [in the assumption] an exact equal number of M’s and F’s, somehow doesn’t shtim on a conceptional level. But I see from the raw mathematical formulas that it is true.
What’s even more troubling is that none of these scenarios (population growth + age gap of husband and wives) is anything we haven’t experienced since Rabbeinu Gershom enacted his takana amongst Ashkenaz Jewry. (Before the Cherem, with multiple wives, obviously this wasn’t a problem.) So has this issue existed for the past 1,000 years and left unaddressed by Klal Yisroel? I’m not saying that is a reason to not do something about it now, but what explains the lack of a NASI organization to resolve the “age gap” crisis for the past 1,000 years? Okay, during some periods there were wars and diseases and other factors that may have reduced the male population during that period, while leaving the female population less affected. But certainly there were long stretches of periods (perhaps even most of that time) when things were quiet and the same factors were present. Yet nothing in the rabbinic sources indicates an acknowledgement of this age gap problem.
AZ: One more small question in addition to my 2 main points above.
You wrote: (for the record this crisis exists in the non yeshivsh community as well)
Which non yeshivish communities are experiencing this? And what is being done about it by the non yeshivish (i.e. is NASI deeply involved with the non yeshivish?) I’m pretty sure I saw a previous comment from you claiming the Chasidish don’t have this issue.
Are you saying I was incorrect because I omitted the population growth factor (which I acknowledge although you are correct I didn’t cite it in my previous comments) or because you are maintaining that I was wrong in stating a reason for the age gap is because the guys get married at a later age than the gals?
Also, a hypothetical mathematical question: If from the year 1810 through 2010 we assume there are an exact equal number of males and females born each year, normal population growth is occurring, and no one dies early or goes off the derech, and everyone is ready willing and able to get married, IF every single male marries a female 4 years younger than him (i.e. all the 1810 born males marry 1814 born females, 1811 m –> 1815 f, etc.)…
will every single male in the above scenario get married, but every single year from 1810 through 2010 there will be additional females unable to ever marry (i.e. females born each and every year during that period) while every single guy is getting married — even though there was an exact same number of males and females?
The Gemara specifically says that if there isn’t another route, you can pass by the spot where women are washing their laundry, although they roll up their sleeves in the process.
Does the Gemorah say these women rolled it up uncovering erva (i.e. above the elbow) or just rolled it up higher than usual but not showing any erva? If these women weren’t showing erva (in public no less), then you brought a bad comparison.
Secondly, using your logic you could equally apply it to permitting going to a restaurant where they have improperly clad woman serving as waitresses.
And how is it avoidable from hearing the erva (kol isha) in the first case? Even without paying attention you hear it; in the second case, by passing an improper scene you have better control in not looking at the erva, than you have in not hearing erva.
Is there any reason to treat a supermarket with Kol Isha running any differently than a supermarket with an improperly dressed model running around? Once we accept recorded erva is erva, how is one erva different than another?
IF the age gap theory was premised on that there are more girls born than boys, or that more boys pass away than girls, or more boys than girls are too sick to get married, or that more boys than girls go off the derech, then it is slightly more understandable. BUT the age gap theory maintains EVEN IF none of the above is applicable there is STILL a male shortage simply due to the fact that (on average) men are getting married later than women.
So my question is, assuming all other factors are equal, with the only issue being that men on average are marrying younger women (i.e. 24 year old guys are marrying 20 year old gals), HOW based on that factor alone can mathematically every single male be able to get married (year after year after year after year) and there still be not enough males to marry all the females, EVEN if there is an exactly equal number of frum men and women in every age group ready, willing, and able to find a shidduch and get married.
Again, once you accept that even recorded Kol Isha is erva, how is it any different to guy into s supermarket or anywhere that has Kol Isha than to go into a supermarket or anywhere that has an undressed woman? Even if it wasn’t your intention to hear or see the Kol Isha or undressed woman, it is still forbidden to hear or see (respectively) the erva.
Does the math add up? I’d like to see the figures, calculations and formulas used.
And I don’t even need any (assumed or otherwise) data on actual shidduchim. But more importantly the mathematical computations how it is possible for every single guy to get married over an extended period of time, while leaving at the altar an ongoing percentage of gals rendered un-marryable due to a shortage of grooms — when there is an equal number of guys and gals at each age.
To learn, and follow, the Torah.
The OP asks a good shaila. Once you have that recorded Kol Isha is issur erva, and the issur is hearing it at all (not necessarily limited to intentionally listening to it) – just like seeing a naked person is an issur even if you didn’t come to the place to see that person – then what heter, if any, is there to remain in a place that is playing a singing woman?
According to rabbonim I’ve spoken with, 95% of failed marriages are due to the wife. Many women are spoiled from feminism these days. They expect “equality” and want to wear the pants in the house. And then with the divorce they demand all sorts of things that are halachicly not entitled to under Jewish law, like alimony, child support, custody, and what not.
They frequently falsely play the abused wife tactic. They shed crocodile tears of “emotional” abuse, etc.
You are greatly mistaken oomis. Today’s world does NOT need a college degree to be successful in parnassa. Without even the slightest of doubt. This is even widely acknowledged by the non-Jews.
“reflect the fact that so many are uneasy with some aspects of the kollel ideology.”
Actually it reflects the fact that so many are uneasy with the college ideology. I once thought college was a given. Something you just did. Something that everyone needed or at least benefited from. I never even knew, or would have thought, that so many rabbonim were opposed to college. Once I became aware of this opposition to college by gedolei yisroel, I explored the issue further. After looking into it, I realized not only is college unnecessary, but counterproductive and actually hurtful to ones yiddishkeit. Thus I have forgone going to college, giving me more time to learn Torah. And advance myself in yiddishkeit. And b”H I can report not only have I experienced no loss as a result of this decision, I have gained so much. And I am gainfully employed in a position I am much more successful than anything I would have gained from a college degree.
To the OP (popa_bar_abba):
The reason the JP doesn’t list women is because there is often a “his” and “her” beis din. The woman gets a seruv from her beis din, while the he gets a seruv against her from his beis din. Since the JP takes the side of the women, they only print what they want.
One of the gedolim said watching TV is a guaranteed ticket to gehenim.
Yeah, I’m going new2. Meet me on the corner of Ocean and M. Are you ok with an anono-internet poster picking you up?
Rambam was not like the crazy so-called rationalists of today who deny the mabul and kriyas yam suf.
Cedarhurst: To be a helper to her husband.
All aspects of the divorce must be handled in Beis Din, including the actual divorce/gittin issuing, assets dispersal, custody decisions, etc. And the must be in accordance of Torah/halacha only.
Once any party attempts to circumvent the above, by going to a secular court for monetary issues, custody issues, etc., they lose their standing to make any demands in Beis Din, including for a Get issuance.
They cannot demand halacha be upheld only in the issuance of the get, but halacha not be upheld in asset dispersal or custody decisions.
gavra_at_work, those that break our laws and enter illegally never proved they had a job awaiting them here. The crimes of the illegals are indeed a burden on society.
mdd, free open immigration to all the world is unsustainable. Legal immigration is available. Those that come legally should not be disadvantaged (years wait and no guarantee) against those that break our laws and enter illegally.
So gavra_at_work, you believe in throwing our borders open to one and all without restriction? Half of China’s billion people, and billions of others around the world, might just want to take advantage! Or is it that you believe only those who break our laws to enter this nation should be given that privilege, while those that apply legally, wait years and years and years, and still may not get a VISA must suffer at the expense of those who break in? Good logic.
Midwest2: Are you in this country legally?
Are you opposed to enforcing this law? What other laws do you believe we should ignore?
Over 25% of today’s federal prison population are illegal aliens. In some areas of the country, 12% of felonies, 25% of burglaries and 34% of thefts are committed by illegal aliens.”
Ignoring the “minor crime” such as ID theft and property crimes being committed by illegal aliens, here is a summary on some of the collateral damage reaped in crimes as a result of tolerating illegal aliens in the USA:
In Los Angeles, 95% of some 1,500 outstanding warrants for homicides are for illegal aliens. About 67% of the 17,000 outstanding fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.
There are currently over 400,000 unaccounted for illegal alien criminals with outstanding deportation orders. At least one fourth of these are hard core criminals.
80,000 to 100,000 illegal aliens who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets. Based on studies they will commit an average of 13 serious crimes per perpetrator.
Illegal aliens are involved in criminal activities at a rate that is 2-5 times their representative proportion of the population.
In 1980, our Federal and state facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens but at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in U.S. correctional facilities at a cost of about $6.8 billion per year.
At least 4.5 million pounds of cocaine with a street value of at least $72 billion is smuggled across the southern border every year. ..
56% of illegal aliens charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted on at least 5 prior occasions.
Illegal aliens charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. 90% had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, 50% had been arrested for violent or drug-related felonies.
Illegal aliens commit between 700,000 to 1,289,000 or more crimes per year.
Illegal alien sexual predators commit an estimated 130,909 sexual crimes each year.
There may be as many as 240,000 illegal alien sex offenders circulating throughout America. Based on studies, they will commit an average of 8 sex crimes per perpetrator before being caught.
Nearly 63% of illegal alien sex offenders had been deported on another offense prior to committing the sex crime.
Only 2% of the illegal alien sex offenders in one study had no history of criminal behavior, beyond crossing the border illegally.
In Operation Predator, ICE arrested and deported 6,085 illegal alien pedophiles. Some studies suggest each pedophile molests average of 148 children. If so, that could be as many as 900,580 victims.
Nobody knows how big the Sex Slave problem is but it is enormous.
The very brutal MS-13 gang has over 15,000 members and associates in at least 115 different cliques in 33 states.
The overall financial impact of illegal alien crimes is estimated at between $14.4 and $81 billion or more per year. Factor in the crime as a result of the cocaine and other drugs being smuggled in and the number may reach $150 billion per year.
Still think illegal immigration is a “victimless crime” and we don’t need to control our borders? Remember, about 60% of the crimes being committed are by illegal aliens who were previously deported.
Allowing our borders to be disregarded coupled with little national commitment about doing anything about it has resulted in growing mayhem by illegal alien criminals, not a “victimless crime.”
The formerly Orthodox Joe Lieberman is now trying to push through allowing open sodomites in the military. Call your Senators and protest. Insist they vote down the sodomy in the military bill.
After I decide about a girl that was redd to me, I put a copy of the girls picture in my shidduch journal to keep track which girl I went out with, which I rejected, etc.
Maybe when its big enough I’ll make an album.
Put another way, categories 1, 2, 5, and 7 are Chareidi; categories 3, 4, and 6 are non-Chareidi.