user176

So happy to find this thread. Over Pessah I was thinking about the following derasha. We say in tefila:

אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר אָמַר רַבִּי חֲנִינָא; תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים מַרְבִּים שָׁלוֹם בָּעוֹלָם, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר; וְכׇל בָּנַיִךְ לִמּוּדֵי ה’ וְרַב שְׁלוֹם בָּנָיִךְ, אַל תִּקְרֵי “בָּנָיִךְ” אֶלָּא “בּוֹנָיִךְ”

That Talmide Chachamim are called “bonayich” – your builders – because the build up the nation.

We say in Hallel:

אבן מאסו הבונים, היתה לראש פנה

The stone that was rejected by the builders became the cornerstone.

This passuk is know to be referring to David Hamelech who was a simple shepherd and became a king. As well, the Gemara in Yebamot states that David’s status as a Jew was questioned by Doeg (a talmid Chacham) being that he came from Rut hamoavia. (Also see tehilim 51:7 about how David was conceived).

There are many perushim of this passuk in Hallel, but I want to be doresh that Talmide Chachamim have rejected the State of Israel but yet it will end up as Rosh Pinah- when its leaders all follow Torah and Missvot B’ezrat Hashem.

While typing this up i was searching the internet on this and going that i was mechaven to Rav Kook:

הסבר שלישי אמר הרב צבי יהודה הכהן קוק, ראש ישיבת מרכז הרב, שהאבן היא מדינת ישראל!

הסברו בנוי על דברי המהרש”א שהבונים הם תלמידי החכמים, שמאסו בציונות ובמדינה, וחשבו שהיא אינה ראויה לקום. אבל היא נהיתה לראש פנה, ו”מאת ד’ היתה זאת, היא נפלאת בעינינו”!

ולכן “זה היום עשה ד’ – יום העצמאות – נגילה ונשמחה בו”.

First. There is no such thing as a heter to watch tv. Allowing exposure to any media depends entirely on the content. “TV” means nothing. There is Kosher content and not kosher content. Within kosher content people may draw their lines differently.

Rescue, clearly you’re ideas are novel. Not traditional in any sense and not the way any Orthodox Jew was raised. You’re bringing an entirely new approach to the table. If we were debating on a biblical or theological forum discussing approaches to Torah and worldviews your input would be appropriate. But to come on to a Yeshiva coffee room and introduce foreign ideas, as much sense as they may make to you, is simply disrespectful and out of line. This forum is made up of a large audience of Orthodox Jews. Debating about differences in hashkafot that exist an have large foundations is one thing. But there is no reason to bring brand new ideas to the table unless you’re trying to convince others to adopt your way of thinking. That is unacceptable on this forum. You are abusing your access to this audience to spread your personal ideas that are contradictary to what everyone here believes. It’s immoral.

As a side, rescue is proof that Hashems world is perfect. Each of us was created with free will. If we don’t follow the guidance of our predecessors, but rather use our free will to contradict them, we can end up like rescue. It’s in our hands to decide if we will follow the Torah as it’s been passed down to us or to use Torah sources to connect the dots in a way that makes sense to us.

Can we please get a clear definition of what Zionism is from everyone who has an opinion either way. Not asking what you think about it. Not looking for a history lesson. Just this: when you speak about Zionism, what exactly are you referring to. I feel we can find a lot more overlap if we define clearly what we’re talking about…

Someone issues a warning, looking out for people traveling, caring for people, and you have the audacity to click on to it, read it, and complain about hearing about other people’s vacations during a war? Honestly a sickening take. If you actually cared about people in your heart you would have shared this same post.

What exactly is the judgement? The guy has bad midot? He doesn�t care about my time? There�s nothing to judge here. If you�re wondering if you should be upset or let it go, obviously let it go. Not because your assuming he must have had a valid excuse, but because there is no sense in getting upset, especially in this situation. If you�re asking if the guy did the right thing, you clearly already know the answer. Frankly, as long as it�s legal, (there is a dotted line, not solid), it�s allowed. Is it the right thing to do? No. Why are we surprised that people sometimes act selfishly or with some other bad midah?

I hear you, but disagree. It�s no one else�s responsibility but the homeowner. People barely want to shovel their own property. Now that Shabbat is over you should drive over to all those crosswalks and clear the path so you have an easier time next Shabbat!

Everything katan and ujm say is horrible. They don�t represent Torah in any way. 98% of Jews would be shocked and horrified by the things they say, let alone entirely opposed to their nonsense.

The three oaths are not and never were Halacha Lemaase. This fact has been sourced and laid out very clearly above. Anti-zionists pretend they are Halacha because they use them against Zionists, even though Zionists can easily explain how do not violate the oaths.

I don�t know what is the point of posting all of these articles. As if anyone disputes that there are reshaim in the Israeli government. The argument here isn�t about giving a hezkat kashrut to the government. It�s simply the idea that the country is controlled by a Jewish establishment, and that is a good thing for the Jewish nation. It isn�t the first time in history that Jewish leaders are currupt and not following the Torah. But the fact that we have an establishment in �our� control is a springboard to where we ultimately are looking to be. The fact that Medinat Yisrael is a step towards the geula is undisputable to anyone who has any sense of the concept of hashgaha. Maybe how it came about wasn�t lechtehila, but now that we are where we are it�s clear that this is the path Hashem chose for us. If you think otherwise you may fall into the category of an angry person who�s anger is tantamount to Avoda Zara. You simply don�t agree with that which Hashem has done. It�s absurd to think that backtracking our current position, giving control of israel to anyone else will be any better for Haredim. Which government is going to support Jews learning Torah? The tiny percentage of Jews in the US who taking advantage of the system are totally under the radar. That would never work is Israel. So not only is Medinat Yisrael a step closer to the geula, there is no better alternative. And you�d have to be a total ignaramous to suggest mass yerida. This whole argument is nonsensical. A bunch of statements about �zionists� and a mesora. Quoting these statements is a lot of noise at best. Not practical whatsoever. And again, not Torah misinai. Hating another Jew because they �support� the state of israel is an issur d�orayta. And spewing your hatred causing others to follow just compounds the transgression. Feel free to believe as you wish, but your hatred and name calling is despicable and anti Torah.

Need I warn about the dangers of speaking negatively about eretz yisrael? E�Y is eretz hakodesh, the land that Avraham, Yitzhak and Yaakov walked. The land that Hashem promised to us and is now available to us to go to. Whether controlled by an irreligious body or not is irrelevant. Ribi Shimon Bar Yohai is clear: E�Y is a gift given to us with yisurim. Instead of basking in the relative ease with which we can learn Torah outside of E�Y we should admire the mesirut nefesh those living in E�Y must endure to learn Torah, and recognize that it is precisely that mesirut nefesh that will ultimately put E�Y in the right hands.

Calling large factions of Yere Shamayim, Torah keeping Jews fools/idoloters is not a wise choice of words.

It is so blatantly obvious that the current State of Israel is the foundation and preparation for Mashiah. To speak so negatively against people, zionists, who may even share some of you�re complaints against the policies of the current government it outright lashon hara. A hiloni loving in Israel who loves Hashem and every Jew is your brother whether you like it or not and may very well sit in the front row in olam haba. Calling your disgusting dialogue a mitzva is the epitome of a naval birshut haTorah. Do you shake a lulav without aravot? There is constructive criticism l�toelet and their is destructive all encompassing vitriol against swaths of Am Yisrael.

Thankfully for many Jews there is no inconsistency. The IDF are shlichim of Hashem who protect Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael. The Israeli Government is simply a rebellious king. Everything is being orchestrated by Bore Olam. We are in the middle of a process towards the geula and everything makes perfect sense. We live in unprecedented times. The quicker we all realize that a hashkafa that includes hatred towards members of Am Yisrael is improper and instead we love and appreciate all of Hashems children and the role they play in the grand scheme of things even if we keep separate from them the sooner the geula will arrive.

Nice. I am up to vayikra. It�s been 11 years on and off.

The question itself is kefira. Hashem has returned us to our land as He promised. The final redemption has begun and will not be undone.

Yiddish is not Hebrew. To those who call it a mama lashon, it�s not different than any other language which people grew up with but no longer reside where it is spoken. Whether it be Arabic, Farsi, Russian etc. Unfortunately, the reality is that Yiddish speakers tend to mispronounce Hebrew words in prayer quote often.

If a man can do teshuva in his final days so can a country. No person is perfect and neither is Israel. But the stage is set. Either you acknowledge Hashems hand in this world or you don�t. What exactly does this stark contrast tell you? I can�t understand the point you�re trying to make.

The stupidity is dumbfounding. Your definition of Zionism is warped. You refer to one specific segment of people. Todays definition of Zionism is so much broader and includes shomre Torah who love Eretz Yisrael. Please don�t paint Zionism with the brush of 1920, it earns you a reputation of one who hates Jews. The nafka mina here is not large. Would someone of your opinion dare to say they want the IDF to lose the war. Would you dare to say that all shomer Torah Jews should leave Israel? Practically your claim is that you don�t support the state of Israel and would discourage Aliyah for fear of becoming hiloni. The way you speak of this topic is absolutely Sinat Hinam and is identical to the reason Ribi Akivas students died. You are clearly expressing that your Torah opinion is greater than all others. The way you speak is so nauseating as if you�re doing it on purpose to upset most other Jews. The state of Israel is clearly the beginning of the Geula. If you don�t think so that�s fine. But just remember that the grandmother of Mashiah is Rut, whose husband wasn�t exactly the biggest Tzadik. Geula comes in strange ways. For you to demand of Hashem that it comes exactly how you want it because that�s the �Torah� perspective is stupefying.

People are confusing things. A parent should not raise children in order to get Nachat. That would be completely self serving. A person should raise their children to learn Torah and do Mitzvot because that is what Hashem wants parents to do. Whether or not that will bring parents nachat is completely independent of their obligation to raise Jewish children properly. Of course all parents have a vision of how they want their child to turn out, because that�s their idea of an eved Hashem. Every child is different and every parent is different. A different �flavor� of religious Jew is always more favorable than off the derech. A parent has to use their sechel to know when and how to direct their child or leave them be. If they end up how you wanted you�ll be very happy and get �nachat.� But you didn�t do it for the nachat you did it because you are raising your child to be the best Jew they can be, because that is what Hashem wants from you.

Hakatan you seem to be living in a theoretical bubble. You can�t ignore the reality of what�s happening in Israel today. When you actually consider the reality you can formulate a real opinion. Otherwise you can just repeat the same thing for 75 years and when a real question comes up simply shrug your shoulders because you are doing just fine in the US and what�s happening there doesn�t really matter to you except in theory. You just just know that Hamas supporters quote people like you all the time. They say �These are the �real Jews� that also hate Zionists just like us. They also think Jews don�t belong in Israel until their God tells them to go.� But unlike you whose opinion takes you no further then the coffee room, they conclude that all Jews should be removed from Israel. That is the natural conclusion of this mind set. Disagreeing with how the state is run is one thing. But denouncing it all together in order to escape blame for their actions is a direct Sakana to everyone living in Eretz Yisrael.

Not sure what complaining about what �Zionists� did 75 years ago helps. The reality today is that we have Eretz Yisrael and all of the Yeshivot there. Anti Zionism literally means ridding Israel from Jews. In the reality there is no other alternative to what we have in Israel today – government and all- aside from Mashiah. The next time you bash Zionism just remember that that is akin to a Jew chanting River to the Sea. Because that�s the only other option.

Not sure which letter you read but the one you rested your case in said no such thing. Besides the fact that there are shivim panim laTorah and a letter signed by a few Gedolim is not the end all be all. There were other Gedolim that remain in support of having gone. The fact that you think you�ve proven your point with a letter sharing your opinion just shows your arrogant approach to Judaism. With all due respect to these Talmide Chachamim, they are not the sole arbiters of Torah. It is your approach of elitism that holds back the Geula. You can learn Torah all day and it�s all worthless with an attitude that degrades anyone who think or acts differently.

There should have been. But nobody is going for the speakers.