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Kind of strange saying that over the top weddings raise the standard of the socially acceptable average wedding etc. that average people now can’t afford. What is average even. You could safely assume that there are hundreds of “levels” of wealth just within your circle, your community, people that you’d invite or would be invited to. This is totally not a rich wedding issue. Rich people do not raise the bar, they don’t change the expectations for average people. The socially acceptable standard for average weddings moves with what people can afford.
No one class is to blame for changing the standard, it’s a group effort, anyone making a wedding above average is guilty.
There are so many things that can be added or taken away from the standard to fit your budget. And guess what, the socially acceptable standard is different in different circles.
Someone mentioned something about a dessert table… I dno, honestly, ridiculous. Your wife doesn’t have friends who make desserts? Figure it out. You don’t need to shell out $5k more for a ridiculous addition. If you can’t make it happen at a normal budget just pass. No one’s forcing you. If you’re part of a circle of people who will talk behind your back because you didn’t have a dessert table or wtvr I honestly feel sorry for you.
It’s one thing to say that people shouldn’t be ostentatious. That making those weddings is not “toradig”. Fine. It’s another thing to tell them what they should do. It’s totally different to say what they are doing forces you to go over your budget. I haven’t gotten to that point yet, so maybe I don’t know exactly what that feels like. But it should not work like that.
Somejew, definitely not Symantics . Your explanation is exactly what I was hoping for and simcha really responded with a great question.
You should know that the word literally literally means figuratively in many contexts today. The meaning of words change over time. While Zionism may have once been synonymous with anti-Torah, today in many/most contexts it isn’t.
So the question is simchas question. Given a new definition of Zionism, that includes being a total Torah Jew that differs with the Hashkafa you presented, is that the Zionist you have been railing against or would you treat that person differently?
Somejew, according to your definition, someone who believes in “divine determination“ is not a Zionist. But yet you do have people today who believe in “divine determination” and call themselves Zionists. You have Jews who alarm Torah and do mitzvot and yet call themselves Zionists. Which obviously means they use a different definition of Zionist than you do.
I don’t see how you made that jump from what Zionism was to what Zionism is. I don’t see the connection between the two. So your problem really has nothing to do with early Zionism it has to do with supporting Israels right to exist because you believe it is against the Torah. The Torah does not state anywhere that it is assur to have a state in any form. Your argument holds no water in any way.
Katan ujm, would you just zip it already. Kol haposel b’mumo posel. Anyone who accuses others of idolatry is likely themselves an idolater. Your words are blasphemous, hateful and have no place here. Either act like a Jew or take a hike. So disgusting, disgracing Talmide Chachamim and writing off half of am Yisrael.
Somejew, I’d love to learn more about the different types of dati leumi, in your view what makes one kosher and the other not
Somejew, please share your definition of a Zionist here.
It’s clear from chazal pesahim 119 that wealthy people who spend money on tzedakot and mitzvot are not subject to scrutiny and jealousy. Today, people are scrutinizing despite the tremendous amounts of hesed and tzedaka being done by these same people. This is absolutely a people problem. Maybe the rich guy should take in to consideration peoples negative eye when making a party? I dno.
Every person Rosh or poor is tested with enjoying from this world lishma. If a person eats ice cream because it’s a delicious treat that he enjoys, who says that’s any different than making a wedding to show off. FYI the Gemara – pesahim 8b – is clear that partial lishma works. So even if they are showing off but part of it is to celebrate the missva of simhat hattan and kallah, Hakarat Hatov it’s not as bad as the guy eating ice cream simply because he enjoys it.
If a big talmid chacham makes an event that is less than the norm or what’s considered socially acceptable no one would think twice. No one will judge him for not fitting the script or hitting the bar. If you know why not you’ll understand why rich people aren’t raising the bar. What’s the difference between you and the talmid chacham that makes it ok for him not to meet the bar but not you- that’s your answer.
No one said to go make a wedding in a poor town. A person is living in his community among his peers. Normally rich people move to go live somewhere with only rich people. The fact that they stay in the community and support it is mind boggling in itself.
In my view there’s nothing to talk about. People should stop complaining about others, especially on this forum where zero toelet will come out. A bunch of not rich people discussing rich weddings- what does that do for anyone. Maybe the rich guy needs to bear in mind the frailty of some Jews today who don’t know how to be happy with what they have and teach their children that everything is from Hashem and not to be jealous of others. Hashem blesses everyone and we all serve him with what we have. We should see a rich wedding and tell our kids look at how he uses the money Hashem blesses him with for a mitzva- not bad the guy, that’s bad hinuch. For heavens sake were complaining about a mitzva. Why don’t you complain about winter break or something…..
Very interesting question. I have been thinking about this as well. Recently a young Shaliah Tzibur in my shul changed a few things from the nusah I am used to hearing my whole life. His father claims this was our original mesorah and it changed due to influence of other kehilot. I still think he shouldn’t change from what we’ve been doing do 50 years.
Just looking at all the different kehilot and their minhagim it’s clear that the mesorah of certain things develops and changes over time. From observation it seems that it’s all dependent on acceptance by the tzibur. Sometimes changes are made and they spread without anyone noticing and suddenly people are doing something new and that is the new mesorah. Sometimes there’s a change that’s met with pushback. It’s an organic process based on each individual tzibur or group of tziburim depending on the dynamic.
Two people from the same community can make the same change and one of them will be met with pushback by his brother for going against the mesorah and one will not be noticed. If it spreads it spreads, until it gets to a point where it’s too widespread to stop.
Obviously if there is a Rav involved who has control over the situation that can change things. But often it’s not that type of thing and it spreads faster than the Rav can control.
Somejew, I’m curious to know your definition of a Zionist.
Somejew, I’m curious to know your definition of Zionist.
I learned an amazing gemera recently in masechet pesachim that discussed that some were noheg to light candles on erev Yom Kippur and some weren’t. The Gemara says that although they had opposite minhagim, the purpose of each Minhag was for the same ultimate intention. As the passuk says, “V’amech kulam tzadikim.”Ayen sham.
I think this is an an excellent example of taking a step back to realize that there can be different ways of looking at things. Two groups can have the same goal and do opposite actions to arrive at that goal, and they’re both right.
Somejew, don’t justify your absurdity. Dont compare not keeping Shabbat to believing that the establishment of the State of Israel was a gift from Hashem. You are the epitome of sinat hinam. Dont compare statements of ame haaretz who are brainwashed by their culture and surroundings to well grounded Torah based appreciation to Hashem for the kindness that is Medinat Yisrael. YOUR Torah is not THE Torah. In fact, your attitude towards other Jews is not Torah at all, it’s the antithesis of Torah, vile hatred for no good reason. I sincerely hope that everything you write here in an exaggeration. Let me be clear: I’m not telling you that anti Zionism is wrong. I’m telling you that saying that anti Zionism is a requirement to be considered a Torah Jew is blasphemous.
Hakatan ujm and somjew, your opinions are despicable. Literally writing off half of the Torah observant Jewish population as a different religion or idol worshipers.
People today are so misguided. When you look at what the goyim believe in today, it makes so little sense that we feel like we’re in a twilight zone. The way I see it is that Hashem has blinded them to the obvious, but once He reveals himself it’ll be so easy to reverse course from their ridiculous potions, everything will be clear as day.
But you guys, who have taken your Hashkafa to unimaginable, equally ridiculous and backward, levels. Who continuously disgrace half of am Yisrael every single day, will have a very hard time adjusting to the reality that those people you thought weren’t even Jewish in fact may be offering your korbanot for you in the Bet Hamikdash!
You’ll never have imagined that someone who considered themselves a Zionist pre mashiach may be teaching the laws of tumah v’tahara to YOUR children.
For Hashems sake would you quit calling me a goy and oved avoda zara because I don’t think like you or I follow Rabbis that you don’t on a hashkafic point that has nothing to do with Halacha. It’s literally sickening. You don’t realize how gross it is to open a thread during th Omer and read the things you’re writing here. The vast majority of Jews would find your words outrageous and completely oblivious to concepts of shalom and ahdut.
The worst part, that all this is wasted words. You’re all so thick headed, for years and years the same thing over and over. Hashem yishmor. Enough will never be enough with you people.
Rescue, your language is abhorrent. Even if your Torah was perfect you can never be respected as a Ben Torah using those words and acronyms.
Shaatnez is not perfectly logically. What you mean to say is that you’ve come across a scientific phenomenon that is congruent with the mitzva of Shaatnez. Once you decide that you’ve found the reason behind the mitzvah you’ve replaced the mitzvah with the reason and will then derive laws that the Torah never intended.
Regardless, by stating that Shaatnez is perfectly logical you’ve actually defended his accusation that you won’t keep a mitzvah unless it makes sense. You are basically saying that you keep Shaatnez because you’ve uncovered the reason behind it and now it makes sense.
So happy to find this thread. Over Pessah I was thinking about the following derasha. We say in tefila:
אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר אָמַר רַבִּי חֲנִינָא; תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים מַרְבִּים שָׁלוֹם בָּעוֹלָם, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר; וְכׇל בָּנַיִךְ לִמּוּדֵי ה’ וְרַב שְׁלוֹם בָּנָיִךְ, אַל תִּקְרֵי “בָּנָיִךְ” אֶלָּא “בּוֹנָיִךְ”
That Talmide Chachamim are called “bonayich” – your builders – because the build up the nation.
We say in Hallel:
אבן מאסו הבונים, היתה לראש פנה
The stone that was rejected by the builders became the cornerstone.
This passuk is know to be referring to David Hamelech who was a simple shepherd and became a king. As well, the Gemara in Yebamot states that David’s status as a Jew was questioned by Doeg (a talmid Chacham) being that he came from Rut hamoavia. (Also see tehilim 51:7 about how David was conceived).
There are many perushim of this passuk in Hallel, but I want to be doresh that Talmide Chachamim have rejected the State of Israel but yet it will end up as Rosh Pinah- when its leaders all follow Torah and Missvot B’ezrat Hashem.
While typing this up i was searching the internet on this and going that i was mechaven to Rav Kook:
הסבר שלישי אמר הרב צבי יהודה הכהן קוק, ראש ישיבת מרכז הרב, שהאבן היא מדינת ישראל!
הסברו בנוי על דברי המהרש”א שהבונים הם תלמידי החכמים, שמאסו בציונות ובמדינה, וחשבו שהיא אינה ראויה לקום. אבל היא נהיתה לראש פנה, ו”מאת ד’ היתה זאת, היא נפלאת בעינינו”!
ולכן “זה היום עשה ד’ – יום העצמאות – נגילה ונשמחה בו”.
I think that the “Lo nahagu kavod zeh bazeh” of the students of Ribi Akiva wasn’t as bad as what’s going on in these threads, even proportionate to their gadlut. Differences in hashkafot shouldn’t be the cause of hatred and name calling. I know, once it starts – one person calls the other, or an entire group of people, a kofer or oved avodah zara – it’s difficult not to hit back with equal force. There needs to be a better way. Everyone here are good people with Yirat Shamayim. We all are looking forward to Mashiah and doing our best to learn Torah and keep mitzvot, to raise our families to be ovde Hashem. We’re all conducting ourselves within the same framework of Torah and Halacha. Yes, we find various levels of commitment, and yes, there are major differences in schools of thought. Ok. The Torah is emet and will never be forgotten. Nobody should feel threatened that the true Torah will be watered down or changed. Emet omedet laad. We don’t need to resort to such vitriol.
I am perplexed why gedolim can sometimes be so harsh on each other. But one thing is for sure, when they speak harshly it isn’t with the same intention and purpose that we have even when we are merely repeating their words. Talking about entire groups of am Yisrael or Talmide Chachamim, accusing them, calling them names- it’s wrong.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the back and forth. I’ve learned a lot. There is plenty to debate and share. The virulence is simply intolerable.
First. There is no such thing as a heter to watch tv. Allowing exposure to any media depends entirely on the content. “TV” means nothing. There is Kosher content and not kosher content. Within kosher content people may draw their lines differently.
Rescue, clearly you’re ideas are novel. Not traditional in any sense and not the way any Orthodox Jew was raised. You’re bringing an entirely new approach to the table. If we were debating on a biblical or theological forum discussing approaches to Torah and worldviews your input would be appropriate. But to come on to a Yeshiva coffee room and introduce foreign ideas, as much sense as they may make to you, is simply disrespectful and out of line. This forum is made up of a large audience of Orthodox Jews. Debating about differences in hashkafot that exist an have large foundations is one thing. But there is no reason to bring brand new ideas to the table unless you’re trying to convince others to adopt your way of thinking. That is unacceptable on this forum. You are abusing your access to this audience to spread your personal ideas that are contradictary to what everyone here believes. It’s immoral.
As a side, rescue is proof that Hashems world is perfect. Each of us was created with free will. If we don’t follow the guidance of our predecessors, but rather use our free will to contradict them, we can end up like rescue. It’s in our hands to decide if we will follow the Torah as it’s been passed down to us or to use Torah sources to connect the dots in a way that makes sense to us.
In his perush hamishnayot on pirke Avot the Rambam explains that Mitzvah Kala (in the Mishna tha says to be careful with a mitzva kalah like a missva hamura) refers to mitzvot that are light in peoples minds and gives two examples: speaking lashon hakodesh and being happy on Yom Tov. Some things haven’t changed.
Can we please get a clear definition of what Zionism is from everyone who has an opinion either way. Not asking what you think about it. Not looking for a history lesson. Just this: when you speak about Zionism, what exactly are you referring to. I feel we can find a lot more overlap if we define clearly what we’re talking about…
Hebrew and lashon hakodesh are 95% equivalent. Modern words created likely would have been and will be incorporated into lashon hakodesh. Banning Hebrew is banning lashon hakodesh. The Torah itself uses words from other languages.
Someone issues a warning, looking out for people traveling, caring for people, and you have the audacity to click on to it, read it, and complain about hearing about other people’s vacations during a war? Honestly a sickening take. If you actually cared about people in your heart you would have shared this same post.
Aaq, if normal means right, than no it�s not normal. If normal means common or expected, then yes, every Jew struggles with something and fails often. We are not malachim. Catching someone in their weak moment, or picking up and someones general weakness, does not give you the right to �judge� them, wtvr that even means. You can feel bad that they have this bad mida and hope they can overcome it. Let�s be clear, this particular example isn�t that grievous, he made others miss a light? People are wronged on an infinitely higher level daily. Regardless of all this, what�s the nafka Mina, you want to know if you should stop a shiduch with his kids? If he�s kasher l�edut? What are we talking about here?
What exactly is the judgement? The guy has bad midot? He doesn�t care about my time? There�s nothing to judge here. If you�re wondering if you should be upset or let it go, obviously let it go. Not because your assuming he must have had a valid excuse, but because there is no sense in getting upset, especially in this situation. If you�re asking if the guy did the right thing, you clearly already know the answer. Frankly, as long as it�s legal, (there is a dotted line, not solid), it�s allowed. Is it the right thing to do? No. Why are we surprised that people sometimes act selfishly or with some other bad midah?
Anything can be said to be better than nothing. Wigs may be better than nothing. So are a lot of things, but then everything is justified. People who consider themselves frum and serving Hashem should aim to do what Hashem wants, not something better than worse things but not quite what He wants. The discussion here is about what is ideal for those who are ready to serve Hashem as intended. We applaud everyone who serves Hashem even though they may not be ready to take on certain halachot. Everyone has room to grow. But what are we growing towards, we need to know the ideal, the proper thing to do.
I hear you, but disagree. It�s no one else�s responsibility but the homeowner. People barely want to shovel their own property. Now that Shabbat is over you should drive over to all those crosswalks and clear the path so you have an easier time next Shabbat!
Katan an UJM don�t represent Torah in any way. Everything they say is horrifying. 98% of Jews would be shocked and appalled by what they say.
Everything katan and ujm say is horrible. They don�t represent Torah in any way. 98% of Jews would be shocked and horrified by the things they say, let alone entirely opposed to their nonsense.
While the three oaths have been brought by poskim lehalacha they have as well if not more predominantly been omitted from Halacha. Regardless, there are thousands of halachic disputes, many with severe ramifications. This is not a new phenomenon. When there is a halachic dispute each side respects the others opinion.
The three oaths are not and never were Halacha Lemaase. This fact has been sourced and laid out very clearly above. Anti-zionists pretend they are Halacha because they use them against Zionists, even though Zionists can easily explain how do not violate the oaths.
Beautiful article, very well put together. Clearly the three oaths may not be invoked to support anti Zionism, unless of course you like to blind yourself to reality and pretend that you hold the keys to Judaism. Anyone who rails against fellow Jews like some do here are contributing to anti semitism and delaying the geula.
I don�t know what is the point of posting all of these articles. As if anyone disputes that there are reshaim in the Israeli government. The argument here isn�t about giving a hezkat kashrut to the government. It�s simply the idea that the country is controlled by a Jewish establishment, and that is a good thing for the Jewish nation. It isn�t the first time in history that Jewish leaders are currupt and not following the Torah. But the fact that we have an establishment in �our� control is a springboard to where we ultimately are looking to be. The fact that Medinat Yisrael is a step towards the geula is undisputable to anyone who has any sense of the concept of hashgaha. Maybe how it came about wasn�t lechtehila, but now that we are where we are it�s clear that this is the path Hashem chose for us. If you think otherwise you may fall into the category of an angry person who�s anger is tantamount to Avoda Zara. You simply don�t agree with that which Hashem has done. It�s absurd to think that backtracking our current position, giving control of israel to anyone else will be any better for Haredim. Which government is going to support Jews learning Torah? The tiny percentage of Jews in the US who taking advantage of the system are totally under the radar. That would never work is Israel. So not only is Medinat Yisrael a step closer to the geula, there is no better alternative. And you�d have to be a total ignaramous to suggest mass yerida. This whole argument is nonsensical. A bunch of statements about �zionists� and a mesora. Quoting these statements is a lot of noise at best. Not practical whatsoever. And again, not Torah misinai. Hating another Jew because they �support� the state of israel is an issur d�orayta. And spewing your hatred causing others to follow just compounds the transgression. Feel free to believe as you wish, but your hatred and name calling is despicable and anti Torah.
It�s unfair for anyone to pin 90% of God fearing Jews under statements and hashkafot that are not the end all be all. Every word from our gedolim is to be revered and considered very seriously, but at the end of the day even our great tanaim and amoraim were often hozer bo, and many great talmide chachamim have offered contradictory opinions and have erred. No one mesorah holds the key to true Torah Judaism. And as great as they are, the Rabbis quoted here are not neviim and their statements are not Torah Misinai. We should always stick to the words of our Rabbis, because they are our lifeline, but we should not use their words against others, especially when they have their own lifeline to hold on to. Honestly, I�m sickened by the hatred. This is literally sinat hinam. Literally naval birshut haTorah. Using a the words of gedolim to discredit fellow Jews. May Hashem open your eyes soon.
Need I warn about the dangers of speaking negatively about eretz yisrael? E�Y is eretz hakodesh, the land that Avraham, Yitzhak and Yaakov walked. The land that Hashem promised to us and is now available to us to go to. Whether controlled by an irreligious body or not is irrelevant. Ribi Shimon Bar Yohai is clear: E�Y is a gift given to us with yisurim. Instead of basking in the relative ease with which we can learn Torah outside of E�Y we should admire the mesirut nefesh those living in E�Y must endure to learn Torah, and recognize that it is precisely that mesirut nefesh that will ultimately put E�Y in the right hands.
One of us has it backwards, and it isnt me. Your commitment to the words of your rabanim is inspiring, but your unwillingness to acknowledge that there are other opinions is shameful.
Calling large factions of Yere Shamayim, Torah keeping Jews fools/idoloters is not a wise choice of words.
Vacation doesn�t have to be fancy. It can be sitting outdoors, by the water or under an open sky with a sefer. Something to change the scenery and take a break from day to day responsibilities. Most people including Rabbis benefit from such breaks. Any break whose intended purpose is to help serve Hashem is a perfect use of time.
It is so blatantly obvious that the current State of Israel is the foundation and preparation for Mashiah. To speak so negatively against people, zionists, who may even share some of you�re complaints against the policies of the current government it outright lashon hara. A hiloni loving in Israel who loves Hashem and every Jew is your brother whether you like it or not and may very well sit in the front row in olam haba. Calling your disgusting dialogue a mitzva is the epitome of a naval birshut haTorah. Do you shake a lulav without aravot? There is constructive criticism l�toelet and their is destructive all encompassing vitriol against swaths of Am Yisrael.
Attacking Zionism in any of its forms is literally the epitome of sinat hinam. Charedim and the IDF need to do a better job at creating an environment within the IDF where haredim can protect am Yisrael without jeopardizing their Yirat Shamayim. Because in its current form it�s entirely understandable why a haredi should not join the IDF. But to speak about fellow Jews with such hatred is without a doubt a large obstacle in the way of the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash. Hopefully with time this hashkafa will die out when children will see the faults of their stubborn parents and choose love over hatred.
Thankfully for many Jews there is no inconsistency. The IDF are shlichim of Hashem who protect Eretz Yisrael and Am Yisrael. The Israeli Government is simply a rebellious king. Everything is being orchestrated by Bore Olam. We are in the middle of a process towards the geula and everything makes perfect sense. We live in unprecedented times. The quicker we all realize that a hashkafa that includes hatred towards members of Am Yisrael is improper and instead we love and appreciate all of Hashems children and the role they play in the grand scheme of things even if we keep separate from them the sooner the geula will arrive.
Baruch Hashem I am still dealing with work and young kids so I�m not able to be as consistent as I�d like to be. My goal as well is 28 lines a week but I rarely make it. Hashem should give you the strength to continue and see it through to completion. Really an amazing mitzva tizke lemitzvot!
Nice. I am up to vayikra. It�s been 11 years on and off.
When most have Hamas etc in mind when pleading with Hashem to destroy our enemies and some people have the IDF in mind that�s a big problem. This anti zionist thing is totally out of hand. Every Jew sins. Niture karta literally hope and pray for the destruction of Israel. It�s not the same thing.
The question itself is kefira. Hashem has returned us to our land as He promised. The final redemption has begun and will not be undone.
Mental and emotional support. Financial if he needs it. ujm is ???? ???.
Yiddish is not Hebrew. To those who call it a mama lashon, it�s not different than any other language which people grew up with but no longer reside where it is spoken. Whether it be Arabic, Farsi, Russian etc. Unfortunately, the reality is that Yiddish speakers tend to mispronounce Hebrew words in prayer quote often.
Putting the first point aside. If the money is helping support a religious organization, or for a seuda who�s Berachot will be Lz�n, or to an ani, or even if it is for marketing purposes, what exactly is the problem?