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no, the headgear is an indication of your beliefs and actions
If you saw a person with a streimel you would say he’s from the chassidic sect (not exactly saying he’s a chassid)
So, if I wear a leather kippah or a knit kippah, it means that I have to have certain beliefs and actions?! Are you saying that it’s not possible to wear a knit kippah and have the same hashkafos and actions as a “yeshivish person?”
The Wolf
But the ENTIRE DEFINITION OF WHAT TZNIUS IS, busha, hidden, basheiden is being trampled upon.
I find it very telling that your primary definition of tznius… the “first word that comes to your mind,” if you will, is shame.
Suffice it to say that it wouldn’t be my first choice.
The Wolf
Wolf, I would assume your Rav who disagrees with Gedolei Yisroel and ignores the Zohar over shaving also has a basis for this?
Since I trust my rav, then, yes, I’m certain he DOES have a basis for it — and, were I inclined to do so, I know that I can ask him and receive an answer. But I’m not inclined to ask my rav every time he makes a halachic decision why he didn’t go with the other side.
The Wolf
Blinky,
Fair enough. My apologies.
The Wolf
I highly doubt it was invented by Shlomo. But let’s put that aside for a moment.
So what? Does it change your life in any way at all whether Shlomo invented chess or not? Does it change your outlook on life, your hashkafah, your relationship with HKBH or the way you conduct your day-to-day life?
So, what’s the difference?
The Wolf
“MO temple
Subtle jibe?”
that’s what it was called
Fair enough. But it’s very rare for any frum shul to be called a “temple.”
i don’t get it
1) whats “wrt”
2)how is it obvious
WRT = With Regard To
It’s obvious if you read the preceeding paragraph that SJS was talking about watching TV on Shabbos as that was what the discussion was about — not about TV watching in general.
“You want to disallow symbols/words — I can understand that.
You want a minimum size — I can understand that.
You want a particular color — I can understand that.”
i’m not disallowing it, it’s perfectly kosher, it just shows what stream of orthodoxy he’s from
Silly me… I thought what group you belonged to was determined by your beliefs and actions. I hadn’t realized that it’s all dependent on your headgear. Please forgive the ignorance.
The Wolf
I rest my case.
So, you have no right to listen to your rav. In fact, never ask your local rav about anything… always go to the gadol hador. After all, he might disagree with your rav and we know who’s bigger…
:: rolleyes ::
The Wolf
then again I know someone that I would consider MO in the way he was dressed (like wearing a kippah srugah) but he wen’t to a shtark camp and everyone looked to him as the masmid.
I personally never understood the obsession that people have for the type of material that one’s yarmulke is made out of.
You want to disallow symbols/words — I can understand that.
You want a minimum size — I can understand that.
You want a particular color — I can understand that.
But I never understood the need some people have for a particular material. I fail to see why any yeshiva would disallow a plain knit black yarmulke with no words/symbols/etc.
The Wolf
Sof,
You cannot compare the days of the Volozhin yeshiva to today. The need for formal secular studies as a prerequisite for entering the workforce is *much different* than it was in that time and place.
The Wolf
I, too, was wondering why these threads were bumped with no current events or personal anecdotes to warrant bumping an old topic.
The Wolf
“I’ve never heard of a MO Rabbi who says its ok to watch TV (or go mixed swimming in a bathing suit or other things). “
I beg to differ, from the few MO rabbis i know, they would tell you that.
On re-read, it’s obvious from the previous paragraph that SJS left out “on shabbos” WRT watching TV.
On that count, I have to agree. I know of NO MO rabbi who would allow one to watch TV on Shabbos. Your example above is obviously not relevant since you failed to notice that SJS left out “on shabbos.” (Unless, of course, you think that the presence of a TV in his office means that he’s watching it on Shabbos.)
The Wolf
I know a rabbi that has a TV in his office (obviously that gives it a stamp of approval)
I know of a Chassidic rav who stole (obviously that gives it his stamp of approval). (Oh, you mean that he doesn’t count since it was just his individual conduct…)
MO temple
Subtle jibe?
become a rabbi in a conservative school
I attended a Conservative school for three years before my parents became frum. We had numerous Orthodox teachers. Teaching in a Conservative school does not passul anyone. On the contrary, many would view it as an opportunity for positive influence.
He responded what does it matter anyway because IT’S ONLY A D’RABBANAN implying (at least to me) you don’t need to follow d’rabbanans (maybe i’m going overboard but this was how i felt)
Are you sure that’s what he meant? Perhaps you misunderstood him. And, even if you did understand him 100% correctly and he truly meant you don’t have to follow d’rabbanans (something I find *really* hard to believe), then it simply means that you found one that’s ignorant. Hardly a damning gesture on the entire movement.
I could tell you plenty of stories I know of where Chareidi and Yeshivish rabbis either personally did wrong or else displayed their ignorance. But my personal anecdotal “evidence” is not evidence of corruption of the movements.
The Wolf
It’s time to define the term of “Modern Orthodox” in thr CR to avoid future misunderstandings.
(With apologies to Oscar Hammerstein II)
How do you find a word that means MO?
How do catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means MO?
A flibbertidigit, a will-o-the-wisp, a clown?
Oh, how do find the words that mean MO?
How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?
The Wolf
Thank you very much.
You’re welcome.
The Wolf
The OU has a job board:
The Jewish Press has a nice sized Classified section with job listings. It’s published each Wednesday.
The Wolf
Lav,
First of all, please don’t shout (by typing in ALL CAPS). It makes it difficult to read and is not considered proper netiquiette.
Secondly, I recently ran into a similar issue on these boards. I posted in another thread that I try to say “Good Shabbos” to every Jew I see in the street on Shabbos — man or woman, young or old. A female poster on the board said that I should not do so because it would make her uncomfortable to have a “Good Shabbos” from a man.
So, I’m left with a bit of a conundrum. Do I say “Good Shabbos” to a woman because she might feel uncomfortable? Or do I simply forge ahead on the basis that most people would like to be greeted and therefore ignoring the minority? Heck, I’m sure there are probably men out there too who would rather I not say “Good Shabbos” to them too — but they, too, are the minority. So, do I stop for the minority, or do I just plow ahead? It’s a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t situation.
Ultimately, I chose to forge ahead and continue to say “Good Shabbos” to people. I would prefer to err on the side of being too nice rather than on the side of not nice at all.
I believe the people in the shul you attended face the same dilema. Most people, I believe would want to be greeted if they were a stranger in a shul. Your case (where you’d rather be left alone) is IMHO the minority. That being said, I believe the best course of action for you would be to minimize the opportunity for people to greet you. The best way to do that would probably be to daven by the seat closest to the door and leave immediately after davening.
The Wolf
-While you are correct in your statement -many poskim did assur shaitels altogether.
And, interesting enough, there are some portions of our community where ONLY a sheitel is accepted. Lubavitch comes to mind.
The Wolf
There dressing like zona’s.
No, missme, don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think….
:: rolleyes ::
The Wolf
You can categorize me or put me into any kind of “box” you would like.
OK, I hereby categorize you as evenly divisible by 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 16, 20, 40 and 80.
The Wolf
Wolf, you don’t have to agree with me, but I think the frum world would classify you as MO because of the TV in your living room and other things about your lifestyle.
Again, you don’t need to agree with me or anyone else who would label you MO, but that’s how I see it.
You’re right, of course. I don’t have to agree with you. 🙂
There are those who would also call me downright OTD. I don’t have to agree with them either.
In short, I reject any and all ways that people try to put me “in the box” of any particular hashkafah, because I don’t belong to any one hashkafah. Certainly parts of my hashkafah is influenced by some elements of MO (whatever, exactly, that means) but I am also influenced by and have adopted elements of the hashkafah of other groups as well.
The Wolf
And before anyone asks… no, my sons aren’t named “Walter” or “George.” The names on their birth certificates are their Hebrew names — the only names they have (aside, of course, from their surnames).
The Wolf
Mod,
It must be very confusing for readers when you quote from my posts and respond to them before other people can even see them.
The Wolf
that’s true, but im used to a certain ubiquitous moderator, who happens to be absent today, who approves posts rapid-fire,every minute or so..80
Wolf, People who engage in mixed swimming, when challanged, excuse it since they are “MO.” So they themselves use MO to justify being less commited to Torah and mitzvos.
And some Chareidim who steal, when challenged, excuse it because the money is going to mosdos. So they themselves use their Chareidi beliefs to justify their theft.
Like that? I didn’t think so. I don’t believe it to be true either.
The point is that just because some people of a group use the ideology of the group to justify their actions, that does not necessarily mean the group or its ideas are corrupt.
The Wolf (who, BTW, has gone “mixed swimming” — alone with his wife).
how would you explain the meaning of the adjective as used by the MO?
That’s a good question. Truth to tell, since I don’t really self-identify with Modern Orthodoxy, I don’t know that I can properly answer that question. But I know that the way it is used (pejoratively, as I described above) is just wrong.
Since I know someone is going to ask what group I do self-identify with, I’ll spare you the trouble. I don’t self-identify with any group. I share certain ideologies with the “yeshivish” movement, some with what is identified as “MO” and possibly even some with the chassidic world. In short, I don’t subscribe to the entire ideology of any one group and so I don’t self-identify with any one group.
Here’s a condensed version of something I wrote on the subject back in 2007. Re-reading it today, three years later, it holds just as true as it did then.
==========================================================
Eeees and I recently attended a Bar Mitzvah. Over the last two years, we have become friendly with the family, had them over to our house for meals, invited them to our son’s Bar Mitzvah and now attended the Bar Mitzvah of their oldest son.
This Bar Mitzvah was not like the Bar Mitzvah that we had for our son. We had separate seating, they had mixed seating. All of our music was Jewish, theirs had quite a few modern tunes. Ours had a mechitza for dancing, theirs didn’t. At theirs, the DJ gave away a giant blowup Simpson’s couch to the best dancers (thank God our kids didn’t come away with that – they were orange! 🙂 ). We didn’t have a DJ or prizes. But that’s fine… no one has to do things our way, or their way.
During the festivities, Eeees and I talked about how our Bar Mitzvah was different from this and concluded that this type of affair was not one that we would have. If we had Walter’s Bar Mitzvah to do over again, we would probably do it the same way again. Aside from the separate seating (which we did for other reasons), we preferred the way we did it to the way this Bar Mitzvah went. That’s not to say that this Bar Mitzvah wasn’t good… we had a great time, and loved being present to help celebrate our friend’s simcha. It’s just not the way we would do it… but that’s fine – as I said above, two people don’t have to celebrate the same simcha the same way.
One of the things that we talked about at the affair was how we seem to be somewhere in-between several different mehalchim (paths). We’re not Yeshivish, yet I wouldn’t say that we’re really Modern Orthodox either. This past Shabbos we ate with a family who could be described as Yeshivish, maybe even Chareidi-like… and we were comfortable and had a great time. At the same time, we are also comfortable with our friends who just had the Bar Mitzvah, and they are clearly Modern-Orthodox and have a good time with them as well. We daven in a shul that could be described as Yeshivish, but yet has many people who are not in the Yeshivish mold. I don’t wear a hat, nor do I cover my head with my tallis, and yet I am the regular ba’al kriah there and sometime ba’al tefillah as well. We hang around with people who are to the “right” of us and the “left” of us. So, where do we fit? What’s our “label?” With which community to we belong? That was the question that Eeees asked me yesterday.
I responded to her that you don’t have to buy the whole package from any one group. You can take some elements that you like from the Yeshivish mehalech, and some elements from the Modern Orthodox mehalech and some elements from other mehalchim and synthesize them into your own mehalech. There is no one, I told her (apart from some Chareidim) that say that you have to take the entire package of any one group and live by it. Feel free to borrow from here or from there. Sure, you may not end up fitting neatly into one of the “labels” but who cares? People don’t (or shouldn’t) live their lives to fit into a label — they should live their lives according to the values, ideals and mores that they hold dear and wish to live by. And that’s actually how we’ve been living our lives for the last sixteen years, taking a bit from here and a bit from there to form our own whole. Maybe we should start a new mehalech called “Wolfish?”
It’s very interesting living in-between the different communities. We have a television in our house (and yes, it’s in the living room — not hidden away in our bedroom or in a closet). We go out to movies. I’m a firm believer in higher education (read: college) and critical thinking. I’m a firm believer in encouraging children to ask questions, not stifling them. If you’re a regular reader of my blog, then you know my position on many matters regarding Judaism today. I’m very open about who I am and what I believe.
And yet, Eeees covers her hair — not because of societal pressure, but because she believes that it’s the right thing to do. I learn every day, not because I think it’s an interesting intellectual pursuit or because I think that the learning police are going to catch me if I don’t — I do it because I think it’s the right thing to do. I don’t have secular music at a seudas mitzvah not because I don’t like secular music, but because I think that, for me, it doesn’t have a place at a seudas mitzvah. I monitor which television shows my kids watch, what movies they see and what internet sites they visit, because I think it’s the right thing to do. (As an aside, George won a Simpsons blow up doll by the Bar Mitzvah. The DJ asked him who he likes better, Bart or Homer. Eeees and I were laughing because we knew that he had no idea who either of them were — we don’t let our twelve year old watch The Simpsons.) We have some definite ideas about what is considered tznius and how a young girl should act. We have rules on how we feel that our sons, as B’nei Torah should act, both in the Bein Adam LaMakom and Bein Adam L’Chaveiro categories. We have standards of kashrus that the kids know that they can’t eat in certain places, even if they are labeled as kosher.
So, we’re neither here nor there. But you know what? I’m happy that way.
The Wolf
Sometimes I don’t understand why some frum people call themselves MO’s because there are so many variations of MO’s. At one end of the spectrum there are very frum people and at the other end of there are people who clearly violate halacha or Mesorah and purport their hashkafas to be the true ones.
Because you (and many others) use the word “modern” to mean “less committed to a life of Torah and Mitzvos” which is an appalling way of using it.
The Wolf
… I’m going to do so anyway, just without using actual “M” word.
Philosopher,
I was thinking about this post last night and it was wrong of me to make my point in this fashion. I still feel your post was off-base, but a snide, sarcastic comeback by me was not called for either.
My apologies.
The Wolf
Are there any other ways to meet that Im not aware of?
Well, in my case, it was through a friend and the Brooklyn Public Library. I was far too young to be going to singles events.
The Wolf
I don’t want to talk against an entire group who call themselves Orthodox, but
… I’m going to do so anyway, just without using actual “M” word.
The Wolf
Helpful,
There’s a name to this game that you’re playing. It’s called “my rav is bigger than your rav.” I don’t play that game.
The fact of the matter is that I am free to ask my local rav what the proper thing to do is — and if he tells me that shaving is muttar, then it’s fine for me, regardless of any list of gedolim that you put up.
My rav is a graduate of BMG with semicha from that institution. He was a talmid of R. Shmuel Zalman Auerbach and studied at Ponovezh in B’nei Brak. He is an extremely well-spoken gentlemen who has Shas and Poskim at his fingertips*. He is known to be m’dakdek in the mitzvos. I am satisfied that he has studied and is knowledgeable enough in halacha to be able to answer halachic questions to my satisfaction.
And he’s clean-shaven.
Bottom line is that I’m free to follow my local rav and I’m on solid ground if I do so. If not, then there’s no point in having local rabbanim at all. Simply appoint the biggest Rav as the Jewish equivelant of the Pope.
Since I’m free to follow my local Rav and he obviously holds that shaving is okay, then I, too, may shave – regardless of how long your list of gedolim is. I don’t play “my rav is bigger than your rav.”
The Wolf
* I never cease to marvel at his ability to tell you what daf any particular Gemara is on or what siman in S”A any particular halacha is in — and he can do it without any advance notice.
Wolf – What looks smart to you isn’t really of any great importance. No offence, but it somewhat comes across that you are more concerned with your own feelings rather than what the Poskim say.
Poskim make fashion statements? News to me.
Seriously, however, I fail to see what your point is? Where have I said anything that is against what “the Poskim” say?
The Wolf
Wolf -i disagree, but putting that aside if you say a shirt with a tie says “smart”, why bother wearing a jacket at all on shabbos? Shouldn’t a tie be good enough?
For some, perhaps. For me, no. I think a suit and tie looks even better. Dressing “smartly” is not necessarily the highest level one can achieve.
The Wolf
I’m not aware of the LSC having any body parts. Is that the case?
Usually not, but I would probably advise checking the website for a list of exhibits before you go if this is truly an issue.
The Wolf
Fair enough, Dave. Thanks for the info.
The Wolf
In E”Y, I almost never saw men wearing ties on shabbos.
Different cultures… different modes of dress – a theme that others have commented on in this thread.
The Wolf
Likewise, are you married? Kids? Ages? Likes? Dislikes?
Please, give us some info so we can help you.
The Wolf
im just trying to say that you can’t compare a jacket to a tie. s/o that wears a jacket looks more put together than just w/ a shirt and tie-I believe.
I disagree. To me, a jacket without a tie says “lazy.” A shirt with a tie says “smart*.”
The Wolf
(* As in “smartly dressed — not smart as in intelligent.)
If they had, they probably would be married by now with several kids in tow. We have to stop the negative press on meeting guys outside of shidduchim. It worked very well for frum girls 30 years ago.
It worked for me less than 20 years ago. I never went on a “shidduch date” in my life.
The Wolf
Or do you have a different opinion of what the hashkafa of a frum Yid ahould be?
Again, keep in mind that I don’t read HaModia and therefore don’t have anything on which to form an opinion other than hearsay. That being said, I don’t know if the HaModia has articles that are “indecent” and “immoral.”
That being said, I know that I have my hashkafos. OTOH, there are others who legitimately have different hashkafos than I do. My hashakafah and the hashkafah of the editors of the Yated, for example, differ greatly. Nonetheless, while I may have my differences with them and even disagree vocally (or as vocal as you can get on a blog) with them, I would never say that the Yated is Tamei or doesn’t belong in a Jewish home. The same goes for any other number of Jewish publications.
The Wolf
EDITED
Help, I’m going on my first date tonight!!!!! Please help me, tell me what’s going to be.
You’re going to meet someone. S/he will talk to you. You will form opinions of each other. You will then decide if the person interests you enough to go out on another date.
That aside, just relax and be yourself. There’s really no reason to be so nervous about a first date. The *absolute worst* that can happen is that you have a bad time, waste a few hours and move on to the next potential partner. OTOH, the upside potential is far greater.
The Wolf
if you ever tried to moderate a venusian-martian argument you would understand why.
Actually, I’ve seen a Venusian-Martian argument. It was shown in the Twilight Zone Episode “Will the Real Martian Please Stand Up.”
The Wolf
but how long can you watch kids pour scoops of rice in and out of a pail without LOSING YOUR MIND?!?!? 🙂
Instead of just watching your kids do it, get involved yourself. Join them, take pictures/video, etc.
The Wolf
Do you think the Hamodia can also be called tamei?
No. Aside from the fact that I don’t read the HaModia and really know very little about it, I don’t (as a matter of policy) go around calling things tamei because they espouse a different hashkafah than I do.
The Wolf
I think you are missing the point. A jacket is an entire appearance, whereas a tie is a minor thing-it doesn’t add/detract from looking respectable as much as a jacket.
I think you’re wrong. I think a tie adds a lot to the image. On Shabbos, I am makpid to always wear a suit WITH TIE. If I go to a chassunah, I always wear a tie as well.
The Wolf
just one of our many secure locations
I was SURE you guys were headquartered here:
🙂
The Wolf
Wolf, so why can’t I call newspaper tumah as in a noun form?
I call the newspaper itself tumah.
How would you call an idol, for example. Can I say an idol is tumah or do I say it is tamei?
Now you’re conflating two different concepts.
In the legal, halachic sense, a newspaper or an idol may not be tamei at all. It depends if it contracted tumah from an external source. There is nothing about an idol or a newspaper that, intrinsically, makes it tamei in the strict halachic sense.
However, you’re using “tumah” in more of a hashkafic sense, to mean improper and something you wouldn’t want to be around. In that respect, I suppose anything can be tamei.
Nonetheless, to get back to your point… items aren’t tumah. Tumah isn’t something you can touch or feel. It’s a spiritual, halachic and legal construct that is the “contamination” (yes, it’s a terrible translation, but I don’t have a better word off the top of my head) that “contaminates” various items, foods and peoples.
As such, an idol is not tumah. Nothing can be “tumah.” It’s may be tamei and a source of tumah.
If I need to say an idol is tamei and not tumah, then I think we can say inanimate objects are not tumah, but rather they are tamei, they transmit tumah.
That’s almost 100% correct. The only minor point is that some items may, in fact, be tamei but not able to trasmit tumah. But aside from that minor point, you’re 100% correct there.
As far as I know a mes is tumah and a Jew can be tumah as well (and if my recollection serves me well, so can a shoretz).
NO NO NO NO NO.
A dead body is TAMEI. It is a source of TUMAH.
A person can become TAMEI. He can also be a source of further TUMAH, but he is not TUMAH.
A dead sheretz can be TAMEI (depending on the species). It can be a source of TUMAH, but it is not TUMAH.
Again, “TUMAH” is strictly a spiritual construct. It cannot be touched.
Oh and thanks for giving me permision to carry on.
You don’t need my permission. It’s just an expression.
The Wolf
Helpful,
Ah, I see. Thanks for removing the cloth from my eyes. 🙂
Nonetheless, the only reason that I can think of why the OP would be concerned is for the same reason that you joked about.
The Wolf
No lawyer would appear before a Judge in Court to represent his client without a jacket.
Is Hashem less than a goyishe judge?
A lawyer is an officer of the court. A respondent, however, is not and you may find cases where respondents DO appear before judges without jackets.
But let’s carry it a bit further. No lawyer would appear without a tie either. Yet I see no one saying that one must wear a tie to davening.
Is Hashem less than a goyishe judge?
The Wolf
Oh did I feel bad for them.
Why did you feel bad for them?
The Wolf
maxwell thats like a 6000 word post no way I can read that pare it down for brevity sake.
As a matter of personal policy, I don’t even bother responding to people who try to bury you under mounds and mounds of copied text.
I feel that if you want to make a point, do so. Summarize the point in your own words and provide the location where I can check the original reference if I so desire.
In short, I don’t debate copying machines.
The Wolf