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The following should really be posted –
Will you, moderator, please remove SQUARE from this forum.
Do we really need to hear his vile motsi shem ra rants about haredim here?
No we don’t.
.Bottom line
that remains clear : khazar state existed under the jewish religion
the second temple was built under persian rule
afterwards it stood under greek rule
why is rebelling against greek rule not against the oaths ?
.
.When I said they do teshuva , obviously , I did not mean teshuva gemura and there is no avera at all,
If that happened , then mashiach would have come .
that goes without saying.
I meant, they do teshuva and are at the same level as all other haredim are now.
—So :
the question is –
if all of the inhabitants of EY do tshuva and are nizhar in everything mamash , besides your interpretation of the oaths , is it permitted/obligated , to defend their safety and fight , in case they cannot run away / make peace / bring the UN / or any other possible etsah ?yes or no ?
and why ?
based on which halachik source ?
.
.@aaq
it seems you prefer asking over answering ….
.I am specifically talking about pikuach nefesh here .
it is pashut in shas , poskim and shulhan aruch that besides the three hamurot, pikuach nefesh is docheh everything else .
you claim that the oaths take precedence over pikuach nefesh .
the gemara contradicts that
the poskim contradict that.
the shulhan aruch contradicts that.
.
.
I would like a direct answer please, not a sidestepping one .
.Is Square root still standing behind his vile rant ???
and is he still accusing somejew and katan of being motsi shem ra and a rodef ???
WHEN WILL SQUARE ROOT DELETE THIS DESPICABLE POST ???
.
.Square root is a total embarrassment
He should delete his vile rant , full of motsi shem ra
He complains about rodaif , while he himself is one
He seems like one big hypocrite …
.Purim 1956
three years after chazon ish’s petira
public discourse
printed and distributed
all around the world
.Nu ?
ZSK agrees ?
Would katan would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
. waiting for an honest answer
.no one suggested removing a letter from the torah
if the whole citizenry would keep all mitsvot , except for your understanding of the oaths , that is .
So the question is, again , in such a case ,
THERE IS NO AVEROT ,
besides the mere existence of the army , only as a shmira for a fully haredi citizenry ,
is THAT yeahreig veal yaavor ? yes or no ?
and why ?
what is the proof / source ?
please – no sidestepping
and , please a direct and clear answer
.that follows a pattern .
valid questions about immense claims consistently remain unanswered
under the illusory hope that they will be swept under the carpet
but guess what
the carpet is not big enough ….
.
.
think YYA , if he has real answers , he should publish them .if he does not , it should rightfully be considered as a concession to those concerns
.
.I am specifically talking about pikuach nefesh here .
it is pashut in shas , poskim and shulhan aruch that besides the three hamurot, pikuach nefesh is docheh everything else .
you claim that the oaths take precedence over pikuach nefesh .
the gemara contradicts that
the poskim contradict that.
the shulhan aruch contradicts that.
.
.
I would like a direct answer please, not a sidestepping one .
.
.@aaq
sorry but you have not answered .
the question is , when faced with the absolute knowledge that those are going to be the results , no matter the advice you are giving them ,
You have 10 children – if you know that three of them are going to lose their religion because of their service , would you send them ?
You have 10 children – if you know that three of them are going to lose their health and come back as cripples because of their service , would you send them ?
keep in mind that neither [religion and health] are a result of any enemy actions , both are the result of internal army structure and command
If you could honestly answer both of those two questions …. without extra commentary.
.
..
Am still waiting for square root to delete his unhinged rant
he should appeal to the mods to delete it
it is clearly defamatory
and clearly shkarim gasim
I cannot understand how square root can allow his name to remain associated with such vile comments …
.
.the only unknown is the weather at the time ….
come on ,mr somejew, the question is simple
there is no need to sidestep anymore …
.
.When I said they do teshuva , obviously , I did not mean teshuva gemura and there is no avera at all,
If that happened , then mashiach would have come .
that goes without saying.
I meant, they do teshuva and are at the same level as all other haredim are now.
So :
the question is –
if all of the inhabitants of EY do tshuva and are nizhar in everything mamash , besides your interpretation of the oaths , is it permitted/obligated , to defend their safety and fight , in case they cannot run away / make peace / bring the UN / or any other possible etsah ?yes or no ?
and why ?
based on which halachik source ?
.
.Bottom line
that remains clear : khazar state existed under the jewish religion
the second temple was built under persian rule
afterwards it stood under greek rule
why is rebelling against greek rule not against the oaths ?
.
.@aaq
there are plenty of kol koreh’s re the physical situation in EY .
we do say extra tehillim for years already , for the physical matsav in EY .
polls measuring the amount of time put in altruistic and voluntary work for others in the community , put haredim at a huge multiple when compared with hilonim ….
same with polls measuring the amount of finances given in a voluntary way to other people …
if there are people who owe some answers in that regard, it is the hilonim , not the haredim ….
.
.Katan :
I am not confused .
Steiple never said that the ‘existence’ of the state is against the oaths .
That’s sheker gamur.
The distorted torah you quote is a mirror of certain sects within satmar , who do take a literal approach to the holy satmar rav’s writings .
Many others take the SR writings as derech guzma , with the laudable goal of hitbadlut mei resha’im .
If not for the SR zatsal , most of the haredim would have been swept up in the zionist tsunami engulfing the whole Jewish world after the bitter losses of the second world war.
We all therefore owe the holy SR much hakarat hatov .
But that does not mean that everything he wrote was meant to be taken in totally literal sense.
And even if one does insist in taking all his writings literally , he still only represents a minority view in Judaism .
.@izobar
Jobs which charedim typically do not take will need to be filled, be it in STEM fields or infrastructure and engineering. These are challenges Charedim are going to have to meet and I am interested how that will look given the current community aversion to these fields.
—
If there is a need , they will set up courses accommodating their standards.
I have a study partner who is a fully haredi engineer who is makpid on every halachik detail.
Do you think haredim cannot master engineering ?
I have a haredi neighbor who has a doctorate in mathematics, also makpid on every halachik detail.
Do you think haredim cannot master mathematics ?Community aversion is a consequence of the moral degradation of the surrounding society .
When the majority will be haredi this problem should have disappeared.
.existence of the state is not against the oaths
establishment of the state may be a halachik transgression against the torah , because of the oaths [if you discount balfour 1917, san remo 1920 , peel commission 1936, partition plan 1947, international recognition 1948, and hasmatat hash’a and avnei nezer]
it says nowhere in the torah that a state should not exist
khazar state existed under the Jewish religion
chashmona’im state existed under the Jewish religion
.
so, to label it ‘kefira’ is far fetchedeven satmar themselves do not fully consider them as kofrim
their edut for gittin is not pasul
the offspring of the ladies post those gittin are lefi satmar, not mamzerim lehalacha
proof is in the pudding
look at satmar’s actions rather than listening to their rhetoric …..
..
We have to face the fact that we haredim are a persecuted minority in galut in our own land , between our own errant brothers , who are ready to use their majority , their power and any trick in the book, to ensnare us and our children in order to remake us in their own image .
this brings huge challenges and I am not mekaneh our leaders who have to navigate this
we need huge rachamei shamayim and be very determined ,clever and careful.
the rubbish somejew , katan and ujm are spouting is not only clearly incorrect , it also makes our position worse , and the rbsh’o should open their eyes, both , to the torah and to the reality we live in, and they should stop being the world war one soldier who is still fighting his old battles, in wars of the twenty-first century [language chazon ish used]
..
.I left out one main point in the final question-
not only why , but ,
-based on which halachik source ?
.
.@somejew
it was formulated countless times alreadythe question is –
if all of the inhabitants of EY do tshuva and are nizhar in everything mamash , besides your interpretation of the oaths , is it permitted/obligated , to defend their safety and fight , in case they cannot run away / make peace / bring the UN / or any other possible etsah ?yes or no ?
and why ?
.
the main problem in your approach is your ironclad starting point that your shitah IS THE torah view,
whereas I am attempting to start from WITHIN the accepted torah sources to establish as to whether the torah agrees with you or not ,
using time honored massa umatan kedarka shel torah as seen in the countless thsuva sfarim of our greats over the generations
if you cannot support your maskanot using those established processes , then your maskanot are null and void.
hope and expect you to agree
any approach lema’aseh we will adopt in regard to hishtadlut bimkom pikuach nefesh , will have be the same as the rabbanim adopted during all our previous generations bimkom pikuach nefesh .
if gdolei harabanim adopted a certain approach lema’aseh to hishtadlut bimkom pikuach nefesh , it is incumbent on us to do the same , notwithstanding any hashkafic background .
you speak as if your maskana is the torah and as if any question on it , is a question on the torah .
this is totally wrong
your maskana , is nothing more than your maskana , and any question on it from torah sources , is a challenge for you to prove your maskana right.
so this not a debate between the torah and the outside world as many of the arguments on these pages are .
this is , rather, a debate , within the torah.
hope and expect you agree
.
you think haredim can’t run a medina ?
then you also should think haredim can’t run a city .
haredim are currently running cities in EY and in the US
so why would they not be able to run a medina
they will learn …
.Square root is very concerned about motsi shem ra … and rodaif …. of certain specific people
but he is blind to his own motsi shem ra , blatant shkarim and rodaif of hundreds of thousands of innocent hardworking people.
Cf his totally unhinged rant a few post above .
Am wondering whether he forgot to take his tablets ….
If it wasn’t so terrible it would be comical ….
.
..
no comparison whatsoever
.jewish people’s collaboration with germany does not make a nazi , that’s absolutely ridiculous.
are the judenrat’s members ,nazi’s ????
total rubbish.
.you know very well what the she’ala is
wonder why you think people don’t see through your tactics …
was mentioned countless times on these pages ….
.
.Lol.
Banishment of corruption and inconsideration is a precondition of establishing and maintaining a state …this sounds comical , as the most inconsiderate and corrupted of people succeeded in maintaining a state for over 8 decades now ….
It seems rather that corruption plus inconsiderateness are prerequisites for maintaining a state
any further commentary is totally superfluous …
.
.
.@aaq
Again you are sidestepping the issue .
You have 10 children – if you know that three of them are going to lose their religion because of their service , would you send them ?
You have 10 children – if you know that three of them are going to lose their health and come back as cripples because of their service , would you send them ?
keep in mind that neither [religion and health] are a result of any enemy actions , both are the result of internal army structure and command
If you could honestly answer both of those two questions …. without extra commentary.
.
.@chaim87
“And in fact mizrachi was part of agudah till the machloks between R chaim ozer Zl and r Rubenstein Z”l”—
HISTORICALLY INCORRECT !
.
.Ujm
is misguided , like his fellows somejew and katan.
.This is silly beyond words , sorry
then the mormon church will have undergone full giyur and keep taryag mitsvot …
.you know exactly what the question was .
if the whole citizenry would keep all mitsvot , except for your understanding of the oaths , that is .
So the question is, again , in such a case ,
THERE IS NO AVEROT , NO HILLUL SHABBAT , NO GILUY ARAYOT .
only the mere existence of the army , only as a shmira for a fully haredi citizenry ,
is THAT yeahreig veal yaavor ? yes or no ?
and why ?
please , no sidestepping . —- can we get a clear answer ?
.To the group
I do not know how to post from sifrei kodesh
katan claims that he cannot look up the avnei nezer himself
he wants it quoted here
can someone copy avnei nezer from YD 454:48 and onwards ,please make sure to include 454:50 ?
then all will be able to see for themselves whether the issue of the oaths is merely a sign , or the avera itself …..
thanks
.
.@somejew
it is davka your [mis]understanding of the torah which I take issue with.Not you as a person per se .
Although it still is you as a person who is having this misunderstanding.
your [mis]understanding of the torah has huge implications
[and that is an understatement] ,because if you are wrong , and we do have to take into account the bederech hateva hishtadlut for the well being of [for arguments sake] the two million shomrei shabbat in EY [status of the non shomrei shabbat is unclear , but let’s go with your shitah for now]
and we do not,
we are over on lo ta’amod al dam rei’acha, multiplied by two million !
hope you agree with me that we have to one hundred and ten percent right that your psak that we do not have to take into account hishtadlut bederech hateva for those two million to survive , is correct.
this will need to be proven airtight , not even one millimeter less .
otherwise we are being mezalzel in dinei nefashot mamash.
this is hamurot shebachamurot , which in time of hazal would need a beit din of minimum 23 .
hope that all of the above is fully agreed to ?
.
.I learnt avnei nezer MULTIPLE TIMES .
You both are clearly missing the point .
I always agreed that going against the oaths is not a good thing
.BUT THAT THE GOING AGAINST THE OATHS IS N O T THE R. E. A. S. O. N. FOR THE PUNISHMENT .
THE D. I. S. C. O. N. N. E. C. T. I. O. N. IS THE REASON FOR THE PUNISHMENT.
.you rail and rail against the symptom , totally ignoring the malady itself.
so, although it is agreed that it probably is ‘better’ not to rebel and not to be oleh bechomah
nevertheless it is NOT ASSUR AL PI HAHALACHA , and
when someone feels the urge to do so ,
instead of concentrating on repressing this urge, he should concentrate on rebuilding his connection , and the urge will automatically disappear.
that is the true summary of divrei avnei nezer
for anyone really looking for the truth.
.
.
learn it again .try my summary
and try yours
which one is what avnei nezer really writes ?
.
.katan :
By your “logic”, it would be incorrect to consider the Nazis as bad because there were varying degrees of Nazis and also many of those who helped Jews.
—which nazis ‘helped’ jews ?
names, dates and places , please ?
.
.
.I cannot see why those valid concerns I brought up should be dismissed
the fact is , middot and anava aside , they remain unanswered .
that follows a pattern .
valid questions about immense claims consistently remain unanswered
under the illusory hope that they will be swept under the carpet
but guess what
the carpet is not big enough ….
.
.
think YYA , if he has real answers , he should publish them .if he does not , it should rightfully be considered as a concession to those concerns
.
.somejew falsely claims that there were a number of jewish nazis in WWII.
—
names , places and dates please ?
.
.@aaq
you are again sidestepping“the topic itself” was: the 30 % dropout reported by RZ educators because of army service , and the immense tragedy of a replication of such a drop out rate by haredi youth
a tragedy matched by l’o a 30% serious malady rate amongst haredi youth
which does not seem to bother you at all ……
which again seems to prove my original point re yir’at shamayim …..
.we are waiting …
.the torah I want to learn is psak lemaaseh
psak lemaaseh in all areas of the torah , is based on
1] the theoretical torah itself
2] reality
3] application of the theoretical torah to the practical reality = psak lemaasehthe question I ask, falls under category 2
.
.
is this type of behavior reported, liable to be repeated in the middle east in 2025 and beyond ?yes or no ?
is there a possibility that the same could chvsh happen some 150 km to the south east , or not ?
[meaning in EY itself]all I am asking for is :
for honesty when looking at reality ……
.
.Are you asking about HOW to dismantle the ….. state?
I don’t know and don’t really care to imagine. I’m not the PM nor do I want to be.
—
Thanks for this clarification .
1] you say you don’t know how to dismantle the state ….
assuming you mean , you do not know ‘how to dismantle the state’ without innocents being murdered or wounded in any way ….
[because how to dismantle a state with no regard to innocent deaths or injuries, is not difficult at all]
2] then you state ‘I don’t really care to imagine’ …… on this very same topic of dismantling the state without innocents being murdered or wounded in any way ….
is this not a clear admission to what I have repeatedly claimed on these pages ?
that somejew does not have a solution for the well being of the jews in EY
and that somejew does care to find a solution for their wellbeing
why not ?
why does somejew not care , in the context of the oaths , for the well being of the jews in EY ?
answer is aforementioned maharal , quoted by somejew, who states that to transgress the oaths is yehareig veal yaavor
because pikuch nefesh is not docheh the oaths …
what part of this simple analysis is incorrect ?
.
.i still don’t understand.
I am Jewish. I don’t have “8 million brothers there”.
Are you asking about HOW to dismantle the evil zionist state?
I don’t know and don’t really care to imagine. I’m not the PM nor do I want to be.
What I DO KNOW is that Jews should do tshiva and follow the Torah. This has nothing to do with the policies or agenda of kofrim like the zionists or their state.
—-we are getting closer to nailing down your real shitah , thanks.
you don’t have 8 million brothers there …
so can you please specify – how many brothers do you have there ? can you supply a number please ?
and by which exact criteria the others are excluded ?
thanks
.
.