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@AAQ
you claim that without zionists it would have been under arab rule
impossible to verify what would have happened if not for the zionists …
you would need ruach hakodesh to be able to answer such a question accurately .
if the RBSH’O would have wanted 8 million jews in EY , He could have made it happen without the ‘help’ of the zionists .
that’s pretty clear to anyone with emuna .
.
.@chiefshmerel
@AAQYou both forget the most important point here – without HKBH no haredi , and no jew for that matter , would have been able to be in EY now
so our main allegiance is to the RBSH’O , not to the Turks who happened to let some in , not to the British who happened to let some in , not to the zionists who pushed for unrestricted immigration and besides , also made a mess , but to the RBSH’O without whose help no jew would live in EY today.
and that allegiance trumps all other allegiances.
meaning that if haredi enlistment [which really is the elephant in this coffeeroom] contravenes our allegiance to the RBSH’O , by sacrificing our youth as a goodwill present to the melting pot reeducation system the army was intended to be ,
then all other allegiances are beteilin umevutolin , lo shririn velo kayomin …
even if – and thats a big if , there even exists an allegiance to the zionists , which I greatly doubt ….
.
.@AAQ
the question is not what historically happened in lita
the question was rather- what somejew and katan’s shitah really is …
.
.they are very selective in which questions they answer ….
wonder why ….
does it have anything to do with fear that honest answers on their part will cause them to feel to be contradicted by …
themselves ???
.
.@AAQ
aaq > … I suggest first look at who is a talmid chacham by an objective criterion – level of learning, respect from other talmidei chachamim (that includes those who disagree with each other, or those who are respected by only some of the other talmidei chachamim), and then take in all the opinions of the selected group.
—
‘objective criterion’ , yes . but lav davka your criteria ….
I prefer , [and you should too] the shulhan aruch’s criteria anfd there is an important one there , which you omitted .
hilchot talmud torah in YD – a t’ch who is lacking in yirat shamayim , is disqualified from being a talmid chacham
a talmid chacham who does not use all his spare time for learning is disqualified.
it does not mention anything there about respect .
this was your private addition …
.
.@chief shmerel
even if , for arguments sake , even if you would be right re the necessity of the zionists to facilitate those haredim’s entry in to EY
where do we find in halacha that the inyan of hakarat hatov trumps clear damage to yir’at shamayim ?
for example – kibud av is based on hakarat hatov [sefer hachinuch and more]
nevertheless if the father is a rasha – that mitsva disappears …
why does it disappear – what happened to this vital inyan of hakarat hatov ???
.
.
another example – there is an inyan of hakarat hatov with the mitsrimki ger hayita be’artso
nevertheless they are only mutar lavo bekahal after three dorot
why ?? what happened to hakarat hatov ??
.
.@AAQ
aaq > by the way, your analogy is not necessarily correct. See Avoda Zorah that shows that sakanah has to be treated stricter than a spiritual matter.
That is, if you follow halachik methodology and arrive to a conclusion according to majority, you are sort of covered even if you made a mistake …
—you seemingly refer to the principle of ‘hamirah sakantah me’isura’
but that is not said in a case of losing ones faith and religion – OTD .
Rav zilberstein shlita is on record to be matir and even mandate hilul shabat to avoid the draft if draftee is in danger of OTD
that clearly puts OTD in a whole new and different category to stam issurin
it s the basics of yahadut which are in danger here ….
.
.
.@AAQ
just as a continuation of previous post
It was the elected parliament who voted for the tal law
and it was the unelected clique which canceled it …
.
.
.@AAQ
> aaq … my humble understanding is that Tal’ laws was an attempt of such compromise – and there was no progress in bringing charedim into the army, community simply used this as an opportunity to continue previous arrangement …—
your humble misunderstanding …. better said
you are factually incorrect here , sorry.
there was a change – the units of nachal charedi were a result of the tal law …
.
.do not forget ,
1] the SC imposed woke conditions on to army guidelines regarding gender folly, changing the status quo
and 2] elitist lefty army commanders ignored their recruits’ background and forced them into inappropriate situations
no wonder that appetite for service declined
they seem to think that powerful people can have their cake and simultaneously eat it
it does not work that way
the result of that attitude is the present ‘near civil war’
..
the fault lies exclusively with the illegal judicial overreach
if parliament and the politicians would call the shots, as should be
a compromise , which you are calling for , would have been implemented
and this absolutely pointless fight would have been avoided
saving ourselves untold problems , untold finances and untold manpower.
.
.
the biggest irony of all , is that the deciders, those who make the decisions, are not even accountable for their decisions …
.
.
this system is broken and this unaccountable elitist non elected clique needs to go and , the sooner the better .
.
.AAQ > what is the “exit strategy” from the desert?
overlooked that comment of yours , will react to it now …
—am absolutely not looking for any exit strategy from the so called ‘desert’ ….
for the simple reason that not less of a personage than the rambam is the one who advocated for relocating to the desert….
those within the desert are fortunate and should stay there …
.
.As usual , there is no response forthcoming from either somejew , nor katan on the above issue
but had another important question to both of them :
if you , somejew or katan , would have been on that fateful bus in ramot when those two arab murderers started shooting at innocent civilians , murdering six and wounding countless others ,
and you would have a mobile on you – would you call the police ??
please , a “to the point answer” , without sidestepping , with a reason behind your answer …
.
.ujm is correct in his reasoning here.
.
.besides – who said that without the zionists the haredim coming after 1948 would not be able to enter EY ?
don’t forget – without zionists, the response of the local rulers would be more favorable to jewish immigration.
so it really is not accurate to say that haredim are in EY only bizhut the zionists .
.
.the steipler says – that
someone who IS ma’amin be’ikarim and in athalta d/g, is considered our brother al pi hahalacha
.
whether you like it or not – that is what he writes …...
.
it is still possible to fully believe in the 13 ikarim
and still be a ‘full fledged’ zionist
.
.I challenged somejew repeatedly on these pages to explain why it is impossible
to adhere simultaneously to the 13 ikarim and to zionism
but I was not deemed worthy enough in his eyes to merit a response on that specific question
.
.maybe it is because he considers himself too wise to answer fools like me ….
.
but I will pose the question again anyhow
where in the 13 ikarim do we find a contradiction to zionism ?
.
.
.Would katan use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
@somejew
@AAQsomejew >
…. every kosher rav must ” hold by the shevuos as halakha” because is it a gemara mefurash that has no one cholek, as we see in the numerous poskim rishonim and acharonim who paskin the shulosh shevios.You cannot find even one charedi Gadol who says the shevios are not haluche,
—-Rambam, Shulchan Aruch and Tur ALL hold that shevios are not lehaloche
[clear words of avnei nezer in YD 454:49-52]somejew holds himself of the caliber worthy to argue with those giants ….
interesting ….
.
.@AAQ
yankel > because …. returning as cripples – is a clear calamity ….
> whereas returning OTD … in your opinion …. is obviously not .AAQ > by the way, your analogy is not necessarily correct. See Avoda Zorah that shows that sakanah has to be treated
stricter than a spiritual matter.
> That is, if you follow halachik methodology and arrive to a conclusion according to majority, you are sort of covered
even if you made a mistake.
If you drink water that was not poisoned according to majority opinion, but actually was – the poison will work.—
You are not addressing my point .
a] there is no majority of yir’ar shamayim chachamim in our case advocating for enlistment , not even a minority …. maybe yechidim mamash …. even am mistapek whether there are even yechidim
b] the children going OTD are OTD … that’s a fact ! ….. exactly like the children who are crippled are crippled …. also a fact !
the principle you quote is only valid in a case doing an issur and the question is , in case the person doing the issur had a bona fide psak from a yerei shamayim rav , whether he has to suffer punishment for his actions …
but the facts are the facts … regardless
the cripples are cripples
and the OTD children are OTD ……and nevertheless you are still making light of the OTD danger and treating the cripple danger with severity ….
.
.katan > the point is that Hashem does not want the Zionists there so, therefore, there obviously must be a better alternative
—
you see that the zionists ARE THERE , must be therefore , that Hashem wants them there ,
otherwise they would not be there ….
.
there must be a better alternative …. who said ???.
.@AAQ
yankel > I treat both SR and r YB soloveitchik with reverence.
> Both were outliers and clearly a minority amongst the chachamim in their views.
> All chachamim seeing the current draft problem with all its current realities and all its repercussions , agree not to
enlist …aaq > I believe most MO and RZ Rabbis, including many students of R Soloveitchik, disagree. I am not bringing names as it is usually not leading to a discussion on merits.
—
Rama hilchot talmud torah in YD clearly paskins that a knowledgeable person lacking in yir’at shamayim is disqualified of the title talmid haham ….
.
.
.katan > … Only a Zionist idolater would definitively state that it is impossible to have anything other than Zionist rule.
—
you missed someone out here …. a realist .
a realist is not beholden to any ideological straightjacket
a realist has no preconceived notions to what the solution is meant to be
a realist’s solutions are tailor-made to …. reality
exactly the approach the torah mandates the Jew to take
torah mandates the Jew to find and execute the most fitting solution to reality as is possible
if that means the continuation of those despicable zionists – so be it …
pikuach nefesh doche et kol hatora , including any possible shavu’oth
.
.katan > Decades ago, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists wanted, that they could approach the nations to have them figure it out
—since when do we base solutions regarding pikuach nefesh problems on how situations presented themselves half a century earlier ??
your approach here , sounds [sorry] like a choice between comedy and a tragedy ….
.
.@AAQ
your call to restore ‘trust’ , is another sign of naivete and [sorry again] lack of comprehension of israeli mentality
remember – hard reality is the master – nothing else
first we should acknowledge reality , internalize it , and only then …. form opinions ….
israeli mentality and practice are essential part of said reality
ignore them at your own peril …
.
.many religious sefaradim ignored said reality during their first generations’ sojourn in EY
they mistakenly thought that reality consists of not much more than wishful thinking
they only realized their mistake when it was too late …
.with
@AAQ
aaq> … learning tests by non-charedi rabbis, restrictions on travel to Uman…
—
A] Non haredi rabbis have no business at all stepping into haredi institutions , let alone administering tests …plain ridiculous ….
B] restrictions about Uman travel ???
how does that come into the picture at all ??
.
.@AAQ
There is no comparison whatsoever between the legal behaviour of the USA SC on one hand and the Israeli SC on the other.
The US SC recognizes that their power is derived from the People , the Peoples representatives and the Constitution.
The Israeli SC on the other hand, sees itself as its own source of power. It sees itself as not needing the people , nor a constitution , nor the law , as a source of power.
Rather, it sees itself sufficiently ‘enlightened’ , to tell the citizens of the Nation :
what they ought to think ,
how they ought to legislate , and
who they ought to appoint to the bench.If you follow the news over the last 30 years, this is blatant .
The democracy index of the Economist is totally meaningless to me.
I am b’h granted by the One above with reading and thinking abilities and I don’t see any need to outsource them .
For sure not to some elitist lefty institution.
Which thrives on naive people like you [sorry] who take them seriously ….
.
.
.your suggestion re building ‘big coalitions’ is as naive as your other suggestions and not based on hard reality at all
.as you may remember – in any conflict between hard reality and wishful thinking
who wins – hands down ??
..
.@AAQ
not students of Gra , they came towards the end of that century , but were not part of the zionist wave .
they were fully haredi
.Avi k
> Haredim served in war of independence .
correct .
that was in 1948.
but the army under the command of the woke SC , in 2025 is a totally different army ….
.
.@AAQ
Iran also prides itself to be a democracy , and in reality is very far from it.
Israel is moving towards the Iran model , where an unelected clique keeps a big part of the power for itself
while the elected representatives are faced with unelected vetoes at every step.
there is no legal basis for the unelected Israeli SC’s behaviour over the last 30 years
their decisions overriding the other two elected branches
because of ‘unreasonability’ and other similar fabricated reasons are plainly illegal
there is no compromise possible with a clique which insists that democratic rules do not apply to them
the place of compromise is in parliament between politicians
where the haredim overall are prepared to work together with the majority to hammer out a compromise
but in reality [!], which is the only factor which really counts …
the decisions are not made there anymore
they are made in court , by an unelected clique of elites who govern illegally
.
.no possibility for compromise means war …
war forced on the haredim who are left with no choice but to passively defend themselves and their children
the Jewish nation is ancient and survived many wars forced onto them during the last 2000 years
survived them with immense syata dishmaya and mesirut nefesh
and will survive this war forced on to it too
with the same syata deshmaya and the same mesirut nefesh
utsu etsa vesufar , dabru davar velo yakum , ki imanu kel
.
.
.Rav Elchonon wrote that RZ is avoda zara beshituf
but he meant this in a haskafic sense , not in a halachik sense.
RE would not be matir an eshet ish who got married with 2 frum edim who are RZ
nor would any posek
even the SR would not ….
@aaq
I once was in your camp
I naively believed that left and right could live together in EY under a political compromise arrangement
based on democracy
.but reality is much stronger than wishful thinking
as events in the middle east painfully show again and again
.in all cases of conflict between reality and wishful thinking
it is reality which wins , hands down …
.
.you yourself admitted that you do not follow the realities in Israel closely
am wondering – after this honest self assessment, why do you think you are qualified
to have a valid opinion without being acquainted with the relevant reality ?
.
the left , left no possibility for any rules based compromise ….
.somejew > The Steipler says very clearly that an otherwise frum yid does not cross the threshold of kofer in ikkarei hadaas if he makes the mistake of “aschuleh d’geila” vis-a-vis the false geila of the tziyonim. That doesn’t mean that everyone who indeed makes that foolish mistake now has a free pass to believe all types of kefira and apikorsus and can never become a rushe!
—
I never said that someone who ‘makes the mistake of aschuleh d’geila’ cannot become a rushe …
following statement is equally true : I never said that someone who learns vayoel moshe can’t become a rushe
.don’t know where in the world did you see in my writing that someone “cant become” a rushe ???
hareshut netuna [mishna avot] ….. EVERYONE can become a rushe …
al ta’ami beatsmecha ad yom ….
even yochanan cohen gadol could ….
so can the vayoel moshe learner … and so can the dati le’umi yehudi …
.why is what ‘can become’, relevant at all ?
what should be relevant is : what he is !
what is he now ? is he ma’min be 13 ikarim ?
is he shomer torah ?
that’s all that matters.
.so, the steipler says – again – that
someone who IS ma’amin be’ikarim and in athalta d/g, is considered our brother al pi hahalacha
as simple as can be .
.
.somejew’s brain is apparently kidnapped by aliens and reprogrammed by them to make
him think that it is a binary choice between the 13 ikarim and zionism
hence his convoluted and wrong approach.
.in somejew’s reprogrammed mind it is a contradiction
either you are with zionism or you are with the 13 ikarim
would like to get hold of those aliens , maybe
they can deprogram somejew’s mind and let him think , think and …. think
.
.maybe he will see that zionism , although it is , in my eyes, and
in most of the rabbanim’s eyes, a negative movement
and although most of its adherents and founders were apikorsim
.nevertheless it is still possible to fully believe in the 13 ikarim
and still be a ‘full fledged’ zionist
I challenged somejew repeatedly on these pages to explain why it is impossible
to adhere simultaneously to the 13 ikarim and to zionism
but I was not deemed worthy enough in his eyes to merit a response on that specific question
probably it is, because he is too wise to answer fools like me ….
.
but I will pose the question again anyhow
where in the 13 ikarim do we find a contradiction to zionism ?
.
.you said and I quote :
“the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.”
A] real full fledged zionists , shomer shabbat [and I will add here] shomrei halacha and ma’minim be 13 ikarei emuna
which I suppose is included in your description of shomrei shabat – are no longer part of klal yisroel
by sole virtue of their being ‘full fledged zionists’
thats my understanding of your words ….
.
B] what do you mean by the words ‘full fledged zionists’ ?
again , my understanding here – someone who believes that the medina is athalta d/g .
he supports the medina with all his might
and thinks that this is thw way to bring mashiach
ad kan my understanding of your description of a ‘full fledged zionist’
please correct me if I am wrong in A ? in B ? or in both ?
.
.Supposing I am right in both A and in B , and I do understand you correctly ….
then I definitely stand by my previous post
you do contradict karyane de ‘igrata and all rabanim and dayanim in klal israel .
.
..
am interested to hear your rejoinder .
.
.@Square R
Sq> Concerning those who abandoned the Derech HaTorah and became Secular Zionists,
almost all of them would have abandoned the Derech HaTorah even without Secular Zionism.And almost all Jews who abandoned the Derech HaTorah during their time in the IDF,
they would have abandoned the Derech HaTorah, even without the IDF.
—Incorrect.
Against reality .
Against the torah itself.
cf Rambam hilchot dei’ot, think chapter 6 : derech ha’adam ubryato lihyot nimshach achar sevivato , lefikach …..
.
.
Where is katan ?
is he hiding ?
and why ?
.@AAQ
your post sounds ideal
in theory …
except that considering the hard reality in EY
it is just utopian , nothing more …
when a court cannot find a source of authority to claim jurisdiction
when a court invalidates anything they subjectively consider ‘unreasonable’
which is not my description …
its in their own ‘explanations’ for their rulings
when a court gives itself the power to cancel laws,
voted on by a legal democratic majority
without any source , not in law or a constitution
even those which directly address their own authority !
we know that they are acting illegally
and illegal decisions are to be resisted , not respected.
not unlike the unelected Iranian ‘council of guardians’ canceling laws passed by their parliament
although btw their parliament is not really democratic
when considering that same councils ongoing widespread veto of genuine candidates…
.
.@ujm
If a country makes an agreement with a group, future governments cannot unilaterally revoke it.Think of the American government agreements with the Native Americans (better known as Indians). The US can’t cancel it today and say they aren’t bound by the American government that agreed to it 100, 75 or 50 years ago.
[ujm]
—This BG-Agudah agreement is nothing like a treaty between nations
not in a legal sense , nor was it formulated or understood as such at the time
you have to read reality as it really is
counterproductive to defend a rightful cause with baseless claims
it is nothing more than something akin to a coalition agreement ….
and we all know
how durable , trustworthy and enforceable they are …
.
.@AAQ
Show of hands ?
my great grandparents immigrated from Russia in the 1800’s , but the evil SC traumatized my son with their terror tactics re his enlistment without any legal basis …
.
.@square root
can not understand you – thousands of people chvsh fall sick , an epidemic …
would you send your own kid to fall sick because others are sick already ?
where is the logic ?
.
.yankel > you have not internalized the calamity of OTD
aaq> so, I made several posts discussing how to deal with the danger. You did not seem to care about that, and it is me who does not care?
—
you are not responding to the point I made [which is common in your rejoinders]
I said – you have not internalized OTD as a “calamity” .
I said – you consider OTD as an “inconvenience”
.
.your suggestions how to deal with OTD, are more of an indication that you consider OTD a mere inconvenience.
.you would support sending all 10 of your kids to the army knowing full well 3 return OTD chvsh
but you could not , even after repeated prodding , support sending all 10 , knowing they return as cripples chvsh
.because …. returning as cripples – is a clear calamity ….
whereas returning OTD … in your opinion …. is obviously not .
.
@AAQ
yankel> don’t see any connection to ‘no true scotsman’ in any of my writings …
aaq > I meant that – in this case – you seem to only consider chachamim those who agree with your opinion.
—
Incorrect.
I treat both SR and r YB soloveitchik with reverence.
Both were chachamim .
Both were outliers and clearly a minority amongst the chachamim in their views.
—
What I am saying , and you did not address , is the current draft .All chachamim seeing the current draft problem with all its current realities and all its repercussions , agree not to enlist ..
aaq disagrees ….
..
.First of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis ….
[katan]—
Not ‘supernatural’ .
that was not a nes .
just like Israeli military victories are not a nes
same with the military victory of the british at el alamein – it was not a nes .
both were clear hashgacha pratit.
.
.…. and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
[katan]—
Oh … after so much prodding …
finally did katan agree to let the cat out of the bag ….
the secret is out : the US is the mysterious esav who is going to administer EY .
the same US who withdrew from Afghanistan , Iraq and Lebanon after
many years ,
many dead ,
many wounded
many trillions of debt,that very same US will have the appetite to tolerate another round of their middle eastern adventures ?
and successive administrations will keep the course ?
new and changing majorities in congress and senate will keep up their support ?
..
the most important question – what will the situation be when the inevitable withdrawal will happen ?what is the situation going to be for the mothers and the children in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the elderly in EY ?
what is the situation going to be for the fathers, the breadwinners and protectors of the family, in EY ?
what is katan suggesting ?
to have bitachon ?
.kdushat levi and r yisrael salanter both famously said that
there is no place for bitachon when someone else’s gashmiyut is at risk …am betting that katan would not risk his own house – where he should have bitachon- in such a scenario …
whoever follows katan in this reasoning , is totally off the torah derech ….
.@Square Root
Over the past 2 or 3 weeks, Zionist fanatics
here in the YWN Coffee Room have repeatedly stated
that “Chareidim are simply not interested in participating in over 20 endeavors needed by the public”.When will the person who made those false
Motzi Shem Ra attacks do teshuvah?Probably never, because lunatics do not do real teshuvah.
And brainwashed fanatics also do not do real teshuvah.When will the people who failed to protest
those false Motzi Shem Ra attacks do teshuvah?They retracted only one of the twenty – the one about hospitals ,
and let all other motsi shem ra stand …..It is erev rosh hashana ….
.
.telling a person he is naive
and that his naivete may be dangerous
is not meant as an insult
and should not be taken that way either
you cannot keep on talking in the name of ‘the law’ to force people into the army
when ‘the law’ is being trampled on in the most brazen way by the very same people who
are supposed to be the most exemplary upholders of that very same ‘law’
and are the ones fabricating on their own new laws , non existent
and never passed formal procedures in the knesset
and clearly contradicting actual laws , passed by all legal necessary procedures
if this sounds orwellian , it is because this is plain reality obvious to all besides the willfully blind ….
.
..
.
.As mentioned before, the point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here…”
You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious. Please do not claim anything I write to be attributed to anyone’s Rebbi or Rebbe
[katan]—
in other words – katan hereby admits that he does not have a solution …
he refers ‘curious’ people to a non defined address
to explain a non defined idea …
and on top of all that, still expects the ‘non curious’ people to take him seriously ….
.
.the real full fledged Zionists – shomer shabbos or not – are no longer part of klal yisroel as per Torah guidelines.
[somejew]—
somejew clearly contradicts karyane de’igrata vol 1 …..
and contradicts worldwide accepted halachik practise in all batei hora’a
and all rabanim and dayanim
all because of some supposed obligation to fit with wrongly preconceived ideological shitah ….
.
.@AAQ
don’t see any connection to ‘no true scotsman’ in any of my writings ….
.
.He wasn’t simply “a prime minister 80 years ago”. He founded that idol “State”. But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
[katan]According to katan – the first PM of the medina could obligate the medina 80 years later….
that shows the tenuous grasp on reality katan possesses ….
Not only is katan deficient in the torah and its analysis …
even to plain reality staring in to your face , to which the torah is meant to be applied, he is deficient …
how can his maskana count at all ?
.
.Would katan would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons …. ?
yes or no ?
. waiting for an honest answer
.katan seems afraid to answer ……
wonder why ….
.
@Avi k
Besides your shitot which are wrong
your facts are also wrong
R E Wasserman zatsal clearly refers to the term dati le’umi in his writings
at the end of kovets he’arot on yevamot
REW was murdered al kidush hashem in 1941 …
.
.
.