yankel berel

@lostspark
its childish to concentrate on the messenger.
Concentrate on the message.

@menachem
That’s strange – you have an opinion about everything under the sun , and on mashiach min hameitim , not ?

@arso

I quote RAMBAN and RAMBAM .

RAMBAN is sefer havikuach [part of kitvei haramban mosad rav kuk helek 1, page 315-316], where he clearly states that j is proven not to be mashiach since he did not realize all the prophesies of tanach in his lifetime.

RAMBAM is hilch melachim perek 11 halaha 4 : “if mashiach succeeds, is victorious in battle over the nations and builds the beit hamikdash ,gathering all Jews to EY, then we know that he is mashiach . If, however he is not successful or he is killed , then we know for a fact that he is not the one which the torah was talking about.”

The late leader of habad was not successful in building the b’h nor in gathering the Jews to EY and did not realize the prophesies of tanach – hence we know that is not the one the torah was talking about.

[There are other reasons why the late leader of habad is disqualified, but the discussion here is about RAMBAM and RAMBAN.]

Daniel who according to one pshat in sanhedrin seems to be qualified as a candidate, never started the ge’ula process , never was proclaimed as mashiach, so never failed the test of kiyum nevu’ot hatanach.

If the rbsh’o will be mehayeh him and he will start the ge’ula and not fail the test of kiyum hanevu’ot hatanach, then he could fit the bill.

Simple.

@Menachem
Daniel did not start the ge’ula process, Therefore, he could still be considered as a potential candidate. [if there will be a private thiyat hameitim].

Daniel never started. Therefore, he never failed. And therefore, he could still [at least according to one pshat in sanhedrin] be a candidate for mashiach.
But, As RAMBAN and RAMBAM point out, starting the ge’ula process and then,
dying & leaving unfinished business, equals failure.

Failure equals sheker.
Thats how we know now that j is a mashiach sheker.
Thats how we know that bar kohba is a mashiach sheker.
Thats how we know now that shabtai tzvi is a mashiach sheker.
Thats how we know now that the last leader of habad is a mashiach sheker.

They are all -equally- meshichei sheker.

Are the other possible disqualifications ? Yes.
For example the j personality and his actions, or shabtai tzvi’s conversion to islam, [or other possible problems with the personality of habads leader.]

The point RAMBAM and RAMBAN are discussing is : unfinished business.

Which is as clear as day disqualifying the late habad leader from being mashiach.
So clear is this , that [for the umpteenth time, again] habad itself [pre 94] considered this so axiomatic, that they were prepared to go so far, to the extent of building a new castles-in-the-sky theology , on this basis, proclaiming to all and sundry that their leader simply cannot die [!].

So, to our question : is the late leader of habad a mashiach sheker ?
The answer can only be:

a resounding ‘yes’.

All of klal yisrael, besides the majority of habad hasidim, know this answer.
They feel it in their bones.

After we have already established the late leader of habad is a mashiach sheker , and everyone on this thread agrees to it , as there is only shtika which is rightfully interpreted as hoda’a.
Hoda’a that he is a mashiach sheker, as attested to by those two luminaries, RAMBAN and RAMBAM.
We have to, however, still examine the a’z complaint.

Atsmut betoh haguf was meant only non literal, so they claim.
So, why did my eyes have to see a poster of their leader with the inscription god right next it ?
And I happened to see this, multiple times.
Are you going to tell me that this inscription was also non literal ???

No, it definitely was literal. And it was habad people who put it up.
Inspired by exactly who ?
Inspired by the totally self educated leader of habad, who never learnt in a yeshiva and studied at the two top universities in Berlin and Paris….

@arso

Hi there …

I am still scratching my head ….

will I still merit an answer ?

Gm

@arso
@shmei
Again, for those of you who struggle with comprehension
Never claimed that Ramban and Rambam were machshir j for mashiach if not his dying/disappearing.
That’s crystal clear to anyone who reads my posts carefully.
And that should be self evident to any straight thinking person.

They do however state very clearly that WE KNOW that j is out because of the inadmissibility of a second coming
I repeat
They state very clearly that WE KNOW that j is out because of the inadmissibility of a second coming !!!!

Whether yakov avinu is considered dead or not is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT here.

Again , when our gdolei harishonim mamash said their piece, the discussion should be over and done.

Besides for the fools who would want to argue against those cherished Rebei’im amiti’im of THE WHOLE KLAL YISRAEL DURING ALL THE GENERATIONS SINCE THEIR LIFETIME.

I rest my case.

Hello ?

@philosopher
you mention a link to R Avigdor Miller’s shmuess on voting in the Israeli elections .
Can you tell me where I can get that link ?
Ty.

When we look at the theological mess habad has left us with, when you look at all the twists and turns they took in order to stay relevant, the internal contradictions they so blatantly ignore, the only reaction I can have is

Kama Gdolim Divrei Hahamim

and give credit where its due….

I never liked R shach and could not stand his fight against habad. But what can I do- as much as I would like to say I told you so, the evidence and the reality trump everything else.

His chashashot about habad came true and habad’s defenders’ teirutsim fell by the wayside, one after the other.
Mindboggling.

Was away for a while.
A lot of catching up to do.

Fact is and remains :

1] the statements of their leader re the Gulf War, promising no one will be hurt in EY :
I FOLLOWED IT MYSELF WHILE IT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
Anyone denying this , automatically disqualifies himself as either a plain liar or as someone who mentally suffers from selective amnesia when faced with the realistic option of dismantlement of a multidecade old house of cards .

2] Official Habad claims at the time:
their leader is a LITERAL HALAHIC NAVI , like hagai zharya malahi [- not like the non literal ba’alei ruah hakodesh who were sometimes nick named navi’im a NON LITERAL SENSE.]
Based on the halahic requirement of testing a navi, by predicting the future in advance [- no one will be hurt] and all details happening exactly as predicted [- no one was actually hurt].
I FOLLOWED THIS MYSELF WHILE IT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

3] Actual result of the missile barrage on EY : One person [incidentally a lawyer dedicated against religion] died due to a direct missile hit, many others were wounded.
Thats besides many who died indirectly due to panic related incidents.
I FOLLOWED THIS MYSELF WHILE IT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

4] Official Habad claims at the time:
A halahic navi proclaims mashiach is here [and it is their rebbi] !
This is nevua letova and cannot be reversed halachically and HAS TO HAPPEN.
This is the end of galut and mashiach [their rebbi] CANNOT DIE without actualizing the ge’ula , building the BH , ingathering of exiles , bring all the mashiach era’s prophesies to fruition.
I FOLLOWED THIS MYSELF WHILE IT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

5] The entirety of habad without fail, from the hozer r yoel kahn and all rabanim at the vanguard of this messianic movement till the latest fresh BT addition to this messianic movement, they all agreed to this dogma.
This was an essential AND LITERAL part of ikarei emuna.
He LITERALLY COULD NOT DIE.
I FOLLOWED THIS MYSELF WHILE IT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

6] We all know that it DID happen . He died , disappeared, hid, or whatever …

I have not heard from anyone an HONEST answer, not from sehel , not from lostspark, and not from shmei ….

7] Candace Owens is right . Totally right. If their rebbi is afforded the luxury of a second coming , then why not the j-rebbi [?!] of Owens ?
Hu asher dibarnu from the first moment ….

Bekitsur, habad with their ridiculous claims are putting all of us le’la’g ulekeles in front of the whole world .
Hilul haShem of the first order.
The Jews’ belief and their ikarei emuna are changed and discarded like used socks , based on nothing more than flimsy, wishful and imaginary feel good claims.

It is high time that all their Shtuyot claims are exposed and called out for what they really are:
Plain Shtuyot , and
Not part of normative Judaism .

‘New Habad’ is same gematria as ‘One Big Bloff’

Logic is struggling to find its way to lostsparks mind .
He attributes his ‘hutspadig’ so called crusade against habad to …. limudei chol in MO circles.
Without which there would not be habad criticism ….
—
Got some news for lostspark.

98% of Orthodox Jews view habads ever changing and developing theology re mashiach and rebbe cult with a ‘left eye’ .
That ranges and is equal in all different colors – from those espousing a total ban on chol [like satmar] to those who totally embrace chol [like MO].

The approach generally is one of indulgent tolerance for harmless folly.
But folly it most definitely is , in everyone’s eyes.
Everyone, besides the blind, the deaf and the brainwashed [in short, habad people], that is.

We can all rest assured when we hear the uncensored real reaction of non habad people [behind habads back] re habad theology:

there is no connection whatsoever between criticism of habad “pretsel theology” and limudei hol.
.

Potato conveniently ignores the well documented habad ikarei emuna stand which loudly proclaimed that their mashiach [sheker] COULD NOT die because it was promised by [false] nevua that their “leader/navi/god/yoets/university graduate/ge’an hage’onim/tsadiq yesod olam/nasi hador” is mashiach.
That [supposedly] was a nevua amitit which CANNOT be changed.
That [supposedly] was part ikarei emuna which renders the non believer into a kofer.

No second coming, that was heresy.
No mashiach min hameitim , that was heresy.

To top it all of – just to remind the world of what my very own eyes have seen and what my very own ears have heard, is now being classified by a totally brainwashed and blind follower of this purim charade as nothing less than SIN’AT HINAM !!!

Could not make it up even if I wanted …

Criticism without hate, by definition CANNOT be Sin’at hinam.
It cannot be that the lame excuse of sin’at hinam should be employed as an answer to legitimate questions, and obvious contradictions.

Legitimate questions and obvious contradictions deserve serious and to the point answers and explanations, and not flippant responses which many times totally ignore the actual points raised.
To top off the inadequate answers with bogus claims of sin’at hinam, is in itself an incriminating indictment regarding the qualitative poverty of said answers.

I myself , a former supporter and naive victim of its propaganda, harbor no hate whatsoever against habad , nor against the hasidim of habad.
Nevertheless I do criticize their ideology and theology. Without hate.

If something is wrong, it is not hate to say that it is wrong.
Judaism is full of criticism.
Beit Shamai criticized Beit Hillel severely and are nowhere accused of sin’at hinam as a result.
And the list of similar examples across history can go on and on.

Aderaba, it is incumbent on the criticized to supply adequate answers and explanations lekayem ‘vihiyitem neki’im mehashem umiyisrael’.

@gobrit
Its not such a nonchalant affair.
This is ikarei emuna.
At least thats what all of habad clearly said for quite a number of years . [pre 1994]
He CANNOT die because this is ikarei emuna.

Ikarei emuna is heavy stuff .
Its the stuff, countless of our forefatehers were burnt alive for.
Lost their houses , their parnassah and their children.

You don’t play around with ikarei emuna.

They are not mere socks, to be changed the next day.

Mashiach cannot be min hameitim because of the following simple reason.

1] habad is never wrong & whenever there is a source contradicting what they say , there is a way out. There HAS to be one.
2] habad with all its mashpi’im , rabanim, thinkers, ovdim, maskilim, rashei yeshiva, mothers , temimim,mekuravim, mekarvim , shluhim, adherents and hasidim ALL OF THEM , without fail, were saying pre 3 tamuz that their rebbi cannot die because there is a nevua that their rebbi is mashiach.
3] nevua letovah cant be batel.

So how could habad entertain the thought that mashiach comes from the meitim?

Just a reminder what sechel is –
Someone who doesn’t [want to] understand the point you are making
And then sets himself up as having answered your point by writing something totally incoherent

@always ask
Koreh lerabo bishmo is an issur lefi shulhan aruch hilch kvod rabbo.
No connection to smicha, which itself is only a newish institution, only a few hundred years old, whereas the issur of koreh et rabbo bishmo is mentioned in the gemara.

Muflag be hochma bedoro is considered like rabo , hence the issur of koreh et rabo bishmo toward gdolei hador.
berdichever or rogotshever does not classify as kore rabo bishmo .
In the case of Hillel and Shamai the principle of gadol merabban shmo , is used. But this is only valid for someone whose gadlut was so pervasively recognized that it was pashut that gadol merabban shmo. As opposed to RCH’V who, while exceedingly great ,still did not factually fit this specific criteria.

The issur of koreh et rabo bishmo is not made any more lenient because that person happens to belong to a criticized group , to people with your hashkafa

So please acknowledge the truth

one should not say chaim volozhiner, rather say R Chaim volozhiner.

@hakatan

@Happy new year

@ujm

It is beyond my understanding how you could be so OBLIVIOUS to the very real threat to the very lives of over 7 million of ahenu bnei yisrael in EY ??
Is yiddishe blood hefker in your eyes ???

Where is your lev ?
Where is your mo’ach ?
Where is your Yir’at Shamayim ?
Where is your torah ?
Where is your nos’eh be’ol with brothers and sisters hanetunim ba’tsara ?

If your own flesh and blood little daughter would be critically ill chvsh and you would need an IDF helicopter to transport her to hospital , would you let her better die ???

Would you say “HKBH will already send a yeshua” or will you put her on the flight ???

Ani Ma’ami Be Emuna Shleima SheHu Levado Asa VeOseh VeYa’aseh Lechol HaMa’asim Boreh UManhig LeChol HaBru’im.

HU LEVADO.
.

No change
I would be against the establishment of the State in the first place
But now that it exists, I support its continued existence

Oct 7 only brought to the fore what will chvsh happen bederech hateva if its existence is imperiled
If not for the IDF, of course with syata dishmaya, ,and again, reckoned bederech hateva, who and what would stop those animals ?

So, its continued existence, and our support of it, with all its faults and deficiencies, is definitely a matter of mass pikuach nefesh and therefore mandated by the torah.

Hello?

@qwerty
Lubavichers regularly “prove” that the Rebbe was a Novi by saying he made correct predictions.
[qwerty]
——————
If that is the case, then it logically should follow that he is hayav mitah as navi sheker.
A navi , in order to be accepted as navi, has to undergo a test, where the only acceptable success rate is 100 % .
A 99% return is considered as failure, As this indicates that God did not speak to him and therefore is a Navi Sheker and liable of mitah bebet din.
[Cf rambam hil yesodei torah towards the end]

Their rebbi predicted that NO ONE will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War.
fact of the matter is that people were wounded and one person DIED as a direct result of missile impact.

Rambam states clearly – if only one minor detail does not eventuate as predicted , siman that he is a navi sheker.
So , I would say , He did not mean it as a clear prediction and as an ultimate test for halahic qualification for nevua level.

It was meant as a hope ,as encouragement ,as a braha and as a limud zhut.
Thats the beginning and the end of his so called “halahic nevua status”.

@sechel

Sehel complains that whatever habad says is taken by its critics in a literal sense.
Answer is simple – that’s because that’s the way it is taken by habad hasidim , the intended audience – in a literal sense.
Which is also part of the speakers intention.

Doesn’t the speaker know that his hasidim will take it literally ??
Sure he does .

And he nevertheless continues speaking , knowing that it will be taken literally.
Without any caveats or warnings, that this meant to be understood in a non literal sense

So ,after we know that the audience AND the speaker mean it literal, why the complaint about the critic and the bystander also taking it literally ?

This is disingenuous , in my view.
————————————————
Btw – this is how their rebbi succeeded in getting his hasidim to this point .

You cannot whip your followers into hysterics overnight .
You cannot change their mind overnight either.
Don’t forget all those ideas of him being the greatest the cleverest the one we waited for 2000 years etc etc are all new . They had to seep into his follower’s consciousness AND subconsciousness .

That takes time, subtlety and consistency.

The best way is to use language which lends itself to both a literal and non literal meaning .
Thats how it is never earth-shattering news , which might cause opposition, evidence-based scrutiny or criticism .
Because its ‘only’ non literal.
Not a big deal.

But the new language lodges itself in the listener’s brain.
Then there is a repetition, or better, many repetitions , until this becomes part of normal conversation between his followers, like hello and good morning.

Which again fortifies this new idea in the listeners consciousness. It becomes so strong and so pashut in his mind after years of the above , that when challenged by an outsider who did not go thru this process, the listener genuinely believes the outsider is at odds with objective reality.

This has been going on for the last 8 decades, with the abysmal results now plainly on display.