yankel berel

To the group

I do not know how to post from sifrei kodesh

katan claims that he cannot look up the avnei nezer himself

he wants it quoted here

can someone copy avnei nezer from YD 454:48 and onwards ,please make sure to include 454:50 ?

then all will be able to see for themselves whether the issue of the oaths is merely a sign , or the avera itself …..

thanks
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I learnt avnei nezer MULTIPLE TIMES .

You both are clearly missing the point .

I always agreed that going against the oaths is not a good thing
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BUT THAT THE GOING AGAINST THE OATHS IS N O T THE R. E. A. S. O. N. FOR THE PUNISHMENT .

THE D. I. S. C. O. N. N. E. C. T. I. O. N. IS THE REASON FOR THE PUNISHMENT.
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you rail and rail against the symptom , totally ignoring the malady itself.

so, although it is agreed that it probably is ‘better’ not to rebel and not to be oleh bechomah

nevertheless it is NOT ASSUR AL PI HAHALACHA , and

when someone feels the urge to do so ,

instead of concentrating on repressing this urge, he should concentrate on rebuilding his connection , and the urge will automatically disappear.

that is the true summary of divrei avnei nezer

for anyone really looking for the truth.

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learn it again .

try my summary

and try yours

which one is what avnei nezer really writes ?
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I cannot see why those valid concerns I brought up should be dismissed

the fact is , middot and anava aside , they remain unanswered .

that follows a pattern .

valid questions about immense claims consistently remain unanswered

under the illusory hope that they will be swept under the carpet

but guess what

the carpet is not big enough ….

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think YYA , if he has real answers , he should publish them .

if he does not , it should rightfully be considered as a concession to those concerns
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@aaq
you are again sidestepping

“the topic itself” was: the 30 % dropout reported by RZ educators because of army service , and the immense tragedy of a replication of such a drop out rate by haredi youth

a tragedy matched by l’o a 30% serious malady rate amongst haredi youth

which does not seem to bother you at all ……

which again seems to prove my original point re yir’at shamayim …..
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@YYA

Excellent post .

Superb.
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Are you asking about HOW to dismantle the ….. state?

I don’t know and don’t really care to imagine. I’m not the PM nor do I want to be.

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Thanks for this clarification .

1] you say you don’t know how to dismantle the state ….

assuming you mean , you do not know ‘how to dismantle the state’ without innocents being murdered or wounded in any way ….

[because how to dismantle a state with no regard to innocent deaths or injuries, is not difficult at all]

2] then you state ‘I don’t really care to imagine’ …… on this very same topic of dismantling the state without innocents being murdered or wounded in any way ….

is this not a clear admission to what I have repeatedly claimed on these pages ?

that somejew does not have a solution for the well being of the jews in EY

and that somejew does care to find a solution for their wellbeing

why not ?

why does somejew not care , in the context of the oaths , for the well being of the jews in EY ?

answer is aforementioned maharal , quoted by somejew, who states that to transgress the oaths is yehareig veal yaavor

because pikuch nefesh is not docheh the oaths …

what part of this simple analysis is incorrect ?
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@katan

classic sidestepping ….

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the original q was :

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement ?
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“even if the whole medina would be fully haredi and the hafets hayim himself would be PM , it would be yehareig ve’al yaavor to join the fully haredi IDF because it still would classify as an army of shmad”.

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Obviously in a fully haredi army with a PM like the hafets hayim if he would be alive ,

THERE IS NO AVEROT , NO HILLUL SHABBAT , NO GILUY ARAYOT .

only the mere existence of the army , only as a shmira for a fully haredi citizenry ,

is THAT yeahreig veal yaavor ? yes or no ?

and why ?
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AAQ
it’s obvious from your posts that you do not follow Israeli politics.

the first thing a commenter needs , is a firm grasp on history plus reality.

without this , this entire exercise is completely futile.
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ksatan sidesteps as usual and ignores the essence of my post

for katan’s info I ll repeat:

There is only one G-d in the universe, and it is only He who determines and grants safety, security and peace, and He certainly wants the Jews [no difference from whichever persuasion] to do their utmost to save and protect their brothers as He clearly commanded in His Torah multiple times , NOT ANY LESS THAN HE WOULD EXPECT ALL JEWS TO DO TO SAVE KATAN’S OWN LITTLE DAUGHTER , where even [hypocritical ?] katan himself would use the services of any atheist/zionist/reform top surgeons ….

Where is somejew and katan [and ujm] ?

Did you learn avnei nezer YD 454:50 yet ?
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Nu ??
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@katan

@somejew

@ujm

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement ?
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“even if the whole medina would be fully haredi and the hafets hayim himself would be PM , it would be yehareig ve’al yaavor to join the fully haredi IDF because it still would classify as an army of shmad”

Katan somejew and ujm

did you learn avnei nezer 454:50 yet ?

before you state again that the 3 oaths are ‘undisputed’ ?
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Nu ?
Somejew and katan and ujm

Did you learn avnei nezer YD 454:50 yet ?

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ZSK – “IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.”

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Small but important fact reminder :

1] Before the SC in Israel overstepped its mandate given by the Knesset, and illegally cancelled the 50-year-old authority of Israel’s successive Ministers of Defense , there was a fully working arrangement , whereby only fulltime learners were deferring on a yearly basis and non fulltime learners enlisted , haredi or otherwise.

Just because the SC illegally cancelled this working compromise , that does not mean that haredim are legally obligated to follow suit.
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2] Before the unelected SC in Israel overstepped its mandate given by the Knesset, and illegally cancelled the Tal Law, which was duly passed by a 51 – 41 vote in the elected Knesset [the only legal sovereign of the State] , there was a law on the books , whereby only fulltime learners were deferring on a yearly basis and non fulltime learners enlisted , haredi or otherwise.

The SC never received the power to cancel any laws, in any way shape or form , not from the Knesset nor from the Israeli voter.

Just because the SC illegally cancelled this law , that does not mean that haredim are legally obligated to follow suit.

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Nu ,

am waiting for ujm katan and somejew

could this happen in EY , or not ?

and if not why not ?

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with emet, please ….

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AAQ sounds sincere but I am having my doubts here

he [sorry] seems to be lacking in basic yir’at shamayim , judging by his comments …
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@somejew

the reason of the question is so clear , that I am astonished that you are asking .

I must admit that I left some part out of the original question , owing to the fact that the reason of the question was so clear to me.

I will rephrase the original question, for those who claim not to understand the reason :

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Is there an example today of a Western country—like Britain—ruling, INCLUDING taking direct responsibility for internal security , a place whose population practices a different religion and has a markedly different culture , AGAINST THE WILL OF SAID POPULATION ?

yes or no ?

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The reason I am asking is obvious .

katan claims repeatedly that “giving EY to esav” is going to ensure the wellbeing of 8 million of our brothers there.

What I am doing here, are only some first steps of what katan , ujm and somejew themselves would do when their own little daughter would need major surgery …

they would inquire about the possible repercussions of each of the available courses of action …

and about the repercussions of those repercussions ….

they would make those inquiries in a thorough and serious manner ….
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@YYA

You totally ignored the many differences between this case and early hasidut.

I will repost them here:
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No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is a halachik navi

No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is our Milenia long awaited mashiach

No one in early hasidut made theological pretsel uturns in their own publicly stated convictions contradicting their own previously held shitot , just according to the needs of that specific hour

No one in early hasidut publicly ridiculed someone as centrally accepted in klal yisrael as chazon ish

No one in early hasidut attended years long university studies and then became rebbe , without having a rebbi himself when he grew up

The comparison to early hasidut is a false one and has been misused in order to cover for absurd and clearly exaggerated claims of grandeur brought to the public in a sneaky step by step way
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Bottom line- those claims of mashiach navi etc etc are major earth-shattering ones, not made at any time before in our 2000 years of galut

and therefore rightfully deserve major scrutiny, at least to a proportionate size when compared to the immensity of the claims themselves.

Am waiting for your point to point rebuttal …
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habad invited this scrutiny upon themselves and have only themselves to blame for said scrutiny.

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Am happy to hear an answer

from katan

from somejew

from ujm

from anyone else ….

but please – to the point ……
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@chaim

katan’s tremendous weaknesses in torah are very clear , once you go through it step by step

his tactic is sidestepping and not engaging with the thrust of the arguments and proofs he is up against

he repeats like a broken clock again and again the same platitudes

which give his words a learned veneer

but when it comes to true massa umatan shel torah , he is empty

likewise with somejew , the only difference being that somejew could get angry and get personal

when he is at a loss for proper answers kedarka shel torah , whereafter he totally disappears

only to reappear much later and start afresh as if he never left anything unanswered

both suffer from the same derangement syndromes that

A] every word the holy SR uttered must be taken literally lechumra velekula

B] all chazal, all rishonim, all poskim, all rabanim from sheshet yemei breishit till this very day , agree with me

C] anyone who disagrees with me, is either a kofer or someone who cannot read

D] the reality as I see it , is THE absolute reality , and there is not even one thousand’s percent chance that I should be mistaken in any small detail in the reality as I perceive it .

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If only those two would take a deep breath and have very long and very honest look in the mirror

they would admit to the veracity of all these observations.

It’s not too late

they still can ….
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@yya

No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is a halachik navi

No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is our Milenia long awaited mashiach

No one in early hasidut made theological pretsel uturns in their own publicly stated convictions contradicting their own previously held shitot , just according to the needs of that specific hour

No one in early hasidut publicly ridiculed someone as centrally accepted in klal yisrael as chazon ish

No one in early hasidut attended years long university studies and then became rebbe , without having a rebbi himself when he grew up

The comparison to early hasidut is a false one and has been misused in order to cover for absurd and clearly exaggerated claims of grandeur brought to the public in a sneaky step by step way
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Bottom line- those claims of mashiach navi etc etc are major earth shattering ones , not made at any time before in our 2000 years of galut

and therefore rightfully deserve major scrutiny,at least to a proportionate size when compared to the immensity of the claims themselves.

habad invited this scrutiny upon themselves and have only themselves to blame for said scrutiny.

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maybe we should concentrate this discussion in one thread instead of in two threads

the other thread is titled: i am back 4.0
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@ yya

Like HKBH does not accept shochad – so too klal yisrael does not accept shochad

Klal yisrael will never accept false changes in our mesorah , just because of the shochad of

those false changers

truly happen to do kiruv

truly happen to be nice people

truly happen to provide a good service for orthodox travelers in exotic locales

truly happen to explain humash rashi in an uplifting way
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these false changes should be called out again and again, without fear or favor , until

real to the point satisfying answers will be given
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this has , again , no bearing on the many truly wonderful people who

might be [unwitting] supporters of the those false changes.

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@katan

Nu mr katan – any response to the analogy to hatsole ?

why is b l a m e relevant in pikuach nefesh discussions ?

is it because pikuach nefesh is not a serious issue in your eyes ????

is this the reason you suffice with the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ????

is this the reason you absolutely refuse to give even one example of a western nation governing another population with different culture religion and language ????

we need answers – not lectures !
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to katan :

It’s a shame that you consider the literal interpretation of the holy satmar rebbe’s writings as anything more than a minority view and anachronistic.

Torah-observant Jews through the ages , accord the Torah view, unburdened with previous prejudices , coupled with , and applied to objective reality , as the supreme view over liHavdil anything else.

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btw. katan has never answered how many birurim of the reality he would make before his daughters major surgery

more than the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ?

less than the platitude of ‘giving land to esav’ ?
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katan seems like he is not in the business of answering questions

he seems more into parroting

parrots do not answer questions

parrots do not think
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