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  • in reply to: Kamtza & Bar Kamtza #942039
    yichusdik
    Participant

    First – correction – s/b more than the host’s treatment of him.

    Second – Logician and Cheftza, it is a very delicate issue. If you look at our history, reasonable people felt it was OK to “call out” a godol if they had a reason to think he was in error.

    Think about this – R’ Moshe Galant, R’Moshe Zacuto, and R’ Chayim Benveniste all initially followed Shabtai Tzvi. They were wrong, and it was clear to laymen and other rabonim why.

    There were a number of gedolim 2 and 3 generations after the Besht ( my g x 7 grandfather and his brother among them) who had great challenges from their communities of Frankfurt and Nikolsburg because of their affinity for chasidus. Not every individual in both those communities was a chutzpan denigrating them – some had legitimate questions and concerns.

    In our time – R’Moshe Feinstein famously gave a psak allowing women to wear cullotes and pants made for women, but then had to retract it under much pressure. There were many non-gedolim who called for the psak to be reversed. I don’t hear anyone condemning them.

    Obviously there is an issue of kovod, and obviously if there is a reason to disagree, it needs evidence, halachic support, and even better the haskomoh of a different posek. And obviously it has to be done in the most gentle and respectful way. But we aren’t catholics, who have a pope who they consider infallible. That is the road to making a man into a god, and that’s not yiddishkeit.

    in reply to: Machon Lev JCT jerusalem #853974
    yichusdik
    Participant

    No problem. It’s really an impressive place, and a model, I think, for how the Dati Leumi and chareidi communities can get along well and cooperate.

    Popa, they do have a one year post high school program (1/2 time learning, 1/2 sciences) for americans/canadians that is in English, but the undergrad programs are taught almost completely in Ivrit.

    in reply to: Machon Lev JCT jerusalem #853970
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Forgive me for disagreeing, Reb Itche, but I know JCT very well.

    It may be approved by the Belzer, and it may have many Belzer participants, but it is an independent organization, with its own charitable status in the US, UK, Australia and Canada, as well, of course, as in Israel.

    It has a beautiful and vibrant Beis Medrash that is at the center of the Givat Mordechai campus. The Rosh Yeshiva is Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg, s-i-l of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z’l.

    It is an incredible place. THe chareidi program is growing by leaps and bounds, and graduating engineers, accountants, and technicians. They also have a mechina program for standout science students who are frum who can get their degree and study while deferring their army service until after they finish, and then go into elite engineering units. They have a program tailored for the Ethiopian community, which brings the academic standard of the participants to the highest levels and integrates them into the yeshiva study side if they were not already there.

    The nursing school for women is considered one of the best and most technologically advanced in the country, and it has only been open since 2007.

    Let me know if you have other questions. I may be able to answer them but if not I can certainly point you in the right direction.

    in reply to: Kamtza & Bar Kamtza #942029
    yichusdik
    Participant

    If I’m remembering correctly, the Rabonim at the time – from among the Tanoim – who were at Kamtza’s party, did and said nothing to prevent Bar Kamtza’s embarrassment. This infuriated Bar Kamtza perhaps even more than Kamtza’s treatment of him.

    Raboisai, Rabonim are people. Gedolim are people. People are imperfect, and it is possible that they will transgress. If not, where then did we get the well known and ancient wisdom that the transgression of a great person often gets a greater onesh than that of one who is not on the madrega?

    The quasi-deification of anyone is an affront to our tradition. I find it hard to understand how the same people who castigate the Meshichists and the Elokists among Chabad will react with horror at the possibility that someone points out a mistake, omission, or contradiction from/by a gadol. TO me, the fact that such an occurence is rare enough to bear notice testifys to their gadlus, and does not take away from it.

    in reply to: Was Gilad Shalit Married? #853510
    yichusdik
    Participant

    The website that quote came from, freerepublic, is an ultraconservative site, with some pretty far out links and info. I am myself a conservative, but these guys are somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun. The info came from their forums, not a news report, and the John Gibson who is quoted is a talk show host, not a journalist, with a reputation for controversy. I would take it with a large grain of salt.

    Gilad was just 19 years old when he was abducted; he was in the middle of his keva army service. It is extremely unlikely that someone secular would be married that early and before he finished keva.

    in reply to: What country besides US and UK are you from? #853553
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Canada

    in reply to: Was Gilad Shalit Married? #853507
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Gilad Shalit was not and is not married. You may perhaps be conflating his story with that of IAF navigator Ron Arad, who was shot down over Lebanon in 1985, was captured by Amal, handed over to Hezbollah, and has not been seen or heard from in 22 years. Over the past five years, partly as a result of the deal made to release the bodies of the soldiers killed in ambush in 2006 at the outset of the second Lebanon war (which happened just a week or two after Shalit was abducted), Hezbollah has released a small amount of information regarding Arad, including a video of him in captivity, but it is all very old. He may have since died in captivity, and it is possible he may still be held in Iran. Please continue to daven for Ron ben Batya.

    in reply to: New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody #857179
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Yeah, Doswin, that’ll work. And as I said before, she’ll transmit her love for Torah and Yiddishkeit really well to her children once you’ve beaten her into submission. Come to think of it, I’m sure that having seen their mother being beaten into submission, the children will spontaneously develop a deep and abiding love for Torah, the Jewish community, and the authorities who facilitated the beating.

    Is this what we’ve come to? YIDDEN!!! Recourse to beating people to do mitzvos? We have no better strategies? Ribono shel olam, is this all we have to offer to Jews who have left the fold?

    Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim indicates that animal korbanos were an inferior way of serving hashem and served their purpose in differentiating Judaism from idolatry, but it may be that in the future they will not be necesary, as their tafkid is also served in other ways, primarily through mitzvos and tfilos.

    Perhaps this is the way we should look at the “authority” to beat people into submission (and yes, I’ve looked at all of the sources in the gemoro). It may be permitted, but is it useful? Is it advisable? Are their better ways to achieve the objective of returning someone to observance?

    in reply to: New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody #857175
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Medium – I am firmly in the camp of not telling others what to do with their lives, so I won’t list what I think others should do. Sorry if that sounds counter to what many believe is toras moshe misinai, but it is my perspective, and I don’t see myself as someone who is perfect enough in my own observance to have the temerity to tell others how to improve theirs.

    For myself, I think the most important thing I have done and can do is see the best in each individual Jew, and learn what I can from them. I have learned incredible lessons in ahavas yisroel, in tzedokoh, in veohavto loreacho komocho from totally secular Jews, from Jews who consider themselves reform and conservative. (I have learned these lessons from chareidi and MO Jews as well.)I have seen selflessness and a willingness to give 100% of her time, effort, and consciousness to the future of the Jewish people from an Ethiopian Israeli woman who considers herself secular, but nonetheless transmitted Torah values to the young people she worked with. I have worked with the most broad spectrum of people imaginable in the Jewish world. There is one mostly secular woman, in a very small town far from anywhere, with a tiny Jewish community, who decided to stay instead of retiring to live near her grandkids because she was the only one left in the town who had been taught how to perform a taharah and had been doing so for 30 years, and the older people were all that was left in the community. That is an incredible dedication to am Yisroel. I hope I can continue to do this, and to remind myself as well that I should look inwards to see the beauty that is apparent in our community as well, and not only being critical of its shortcomings, within the higher standards it sets for itself.

    in reply to: New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody #857163
    yichusdik
    Participant

    I don’t know this woman, or the ubiquitous Deborah Feldman, or anyone else in the news for going off the derech. I have said that I find Feldman’s leverage of her upbringing and bad experiences to be wrong on a number of levels, and this individual may simply be leveraging the media to get something that she couldn’t get in court or beis din. I don’t know. But I do know this. There is an elephant in the room, and few people are willing to talk about it. That is the following: None of us is perfect. I am not, you are not, our communities are not, and, even though they are on a (much) higher madrega, neither are our leaders. There are problems and challenges in our communities we need to fix, and it shouldn’t take publicity to maneuver us into fixing them. Not every mechanech does a good job. Not every shul or shteeble is welcoming or warm. Not every frum businessperson makes a kiddush hashem. Instead of wasting our time giving a geshrai over what I agree can be at the very least misleading and incomplete pictures of chareidi life, if not outright falsehoods, let’s do the necessary introspection on how our community can improve its capacity to inspire Jews rather than provoke them into turning away, beyond lengthening our skirts and sleeves, or looking down when we see a woman, which, while they may be admirable endeavors for some, do nothing to address the problems that bleed away our young people.

    in reply to: New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody #857150
    yichusdik
    Participant

    I suppose, based on a previous conversation last week in the coffee room (compulsion to do mitzvos by b’d), that there will be a line of self righteous individuals who are prepared to beat her until she agrees to doing mitzvos as they see it.

    That ought to get her back on the derech. Perfectly sound reasoning. And hey, once she is back on the derech, she will pass on a love and appreciation for Torah and for her community to her four kids, without a doubt.

    in reply to: Memoir called "Unorthodox" and its effect on us #868716
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Feif, I usually agree with you on most things, but I think you are likely off base here. Think about it this way. Even if everything the woman wrote about the death was true (which I don’t believe, as Gary Rosenblatt at the Jewish Week is no friend of Chareidi Jews, and he is convinced it is false), she had no evidence other than hearsay, and yet she felt it was appropriate to include it in her book. That is irresponsible, and it tarnishes an already deeply flawed book even further.

    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852051
    yichusdik
    Participant

    But popa, what do you do about the issue of La’av she’ein bo maaseh, eino lokin olov? Here we are talking about a “thought” crime, or a refusal to do something, not an actual maaseh. Kal v’chomer if it is not an adjudicated la’av, how can beating be permitted?

    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852047
    yichusdik
    Participant

    I did, see above.

    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852042
    yichusdik
    Participant

    The OP also apparently doesn’t like discussions on his sources that don’t clearly support his contention.

    in reply to: Frum Birthright Trip? #1112699
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Toi, c’mon. I am very, very familiar with Birthright, the good and the bad. No one is ever forced to go to a bar. That being said, the rules they operate under, the insurance coverage they have, and the security guidelines they must follow make it impossible for people to take side trips during the 10 days of the experience. People visiting their non chareidi relatives would be prohibited as well. Also – the conditions or circumstances whereby a participant might be billed for the entire cost are laid out explicitly in the paperwork and application process before the trip, so there should be no surprises for anyone who bothered to read them.

    Clearly, the majority of the participants on the regular trips are not only not frum, but are mostly far from any Jewish experience at all, especially those from the US, or places like CUba or Brazil. Such a group is not the environment for a frum young adult. The good news, such as it is, is that the statistics demonstrate that Birthright alumni are more likely to participate in Jewish experiences, date Jewish, and marry Jewish after their experience. That in and of itself is a pretty good justification of the investment when intermarriage is over 50%.

    There are a few offerings for frum kids. I know, from having worked with the logistics provider for Birthright while leading my own, non-birthright seminar in Israel for student leaders, that they only do mehadrin kashrus on a “best efforts” basis, and all else is rabanut hechsher. It was somewhat of a headache for us, but we worked it out and found solutions. That wouldn’t be the case on a birthright trip, and it wouldn’t satisfy the needs of many. I don’t know what arrangements they may have made for the frum trips. But, again, they are upfront with it, and will tell anyone who asks what the kashrus standard is ahead of the trip, I think it might even be on the FAQ on their website.

    in reply to: Memoir called "Unorthodox" and its effect on us #868678
    yichusdik
    Participant

    I’ll probably surprise some here by weighing in on the side of Satmar and seeing this unfortunate young woman’s book as more of a publicity stunt and way to make a buck or two than a real cry for help about real problems in the community, as opposed to in her family.

    Now, undoubtedly there are some truths in her book; undoubtedly there are some half truths and exaggerations; but what I see is familial dysfunction and the fear instilled in the woman at a young age by instability and a domineering grandfather. That could happen in any community, of any religion, race, or ethnicity.

    I don’t agree with the Satmar shitoh on many things. In particular I am saddened by their perspective on Israel and Zionism. But though I am as far from Satmer as can be (My father used to say that Galitzia is worlds away from Hungary, never mind the map), I can recognize that there is much to be praised, and one example in particular stands out. As a woman, and as someone who now feels comfortable in the “outside” world, the writer would know that the chesed network created and run by Satmar women serving patients in hospitals around NYC is second to none and is exemplary in demonstrating ahavas chinom. She ignores it.

    Let me be clear. There is legitimate room for criticism, some of it necessarily harsh, and truths to be spoken aloud about the Satmar community – as there is for the chabad, or litvish, other chassidish, or MO communities. All of us and our communities are far from perfect, and I do not believe that brushing problems under the carpet is a good idea for anyone. But doing what she did in the manner in which she did it served a personal agenda and nothing more, is more about personal crisis and personal anger than real philosophical challenges, and accomplishes little or nothing to address the real challenges we face.

    in reply to: Holy Kotzker! #851744
    yichusdik
    Participant
    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852033
    yichusdik
    Participant

    greatest, you used a bad example in the gemoro in Rosh Hashono – It talks about a korbon, which was brought voluntarily (lirtzono), and compulsion isn’t poshut at all in that case. You should have brought the gemoro from kesubos pey vav omud beis, where it says “makin oso ad sheteitzeh nafsho” to make him do a mitzvas aseh.

    But this is hard to translate into halocho, because we know that malkos were only given during the time of the sanhedrin, and even then, if the person couldn’t withstand all 39, then the number was reduced – with this statement, ad sheteitzeh nafsho, that limit isn’t considered – so a bdieved miderabonon has a harsher punishment than a mideoraiso? No way.

    Also, there is an even bigger issue. The gemoro in the first perek of makkos asks the obvious question about eidim zomemim – if its a laav she’ein bo maaseh, eino lokin olov – in this case, as by NOT doing something, there is no maaseh, how can there be a recourse to beating the person, even to death, comparable and even more severe than makkos? Again, and now in this context, Are you prepared to have your son beaten to death if he refuses your compulsion to put on tzitzis? because that is what you are suggesting is OK by quoting the gemoro as you did for applicability today.

    Finally, as you should have noticed, both issues in both R’H and kesubos are from braisos, not mishnayos, and thus as you well know don’t have the same status in halocho, even if they do have the strength to make a point in the gemoro.

    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852020
    yichusdik
    Participant

    And it’s kind of unfortunate that when a kanoi doesn’t like Hillel Hazoken he starts yelling liberal.

    in reply to: wouldnt it be great if israel attackes Iran on Purim #851333
    yichusdik
    Participant

    ‘Wouldn’t it be great?’ no, not really. It might be necessary, and if so it should be done, but great? Lot’s of Hashem’s creations will die, lots of Jews in E’Y would be under attack, lots of chayalim would be in combat.

    War isn’t a game. fighting and killing is an unfortunate necessity, and defending Jews is now a possibility, when it wasn’t for too many generations, but please, it isn’t something to be contemplated like a Purim spiel.

    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852015
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Hey, greatest, I see you neatly avoided the question. “If your child (just for example) decided he refused to wear tzitzis every day, would you then compel him by beating him black and blue until he listened?” That is what I asked. That is what you are advocating.

    You write – the law takes precedence over feelings. Sure, in the same way a refrigerator takes precedence over a rubber band – It’s more expensive, you are more likely to see it, and it performs an indispensable function, but you wouldn’t – and couldn’t – bundle a newspaper with it.

    You discuss compulsion without even considering the alternatives, as if there was no room for kiruv, for patience, for education, for being dan lkaf zchus, for ahavas yisroel, for recognizing that which is done kdas vodin while encouraging more observance.

    There’s a kind of governance that fits your description. Used to run a country. In fact, it’s still out there trying to bring back its philosophy of compulsion. Fortunately there are soldiers from my country and yours working hard to stop them. They’re called the Taliban. The word means “students”, and their intense legalistic fanaticism leaves no room for transgression.

    vhamayvin yovin

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852605
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Yesh Din V’Yesh Dayon, and you ain’t him. Health, did it ever occur to you that no one asked you to judge who is frum and who is not? No one granted you the right, you just arrogated it.

    Hillel Hazoken famously described the mitzvah of Veohavot loreacho komocho as being shaveh l’lkol hatoroh koloh. Are you observing it k’das vodin? Are you 100% sure? And if not, what does that say about your frumkeit, by your standards? Are you an objective judge for yourself?

    Judgment is for a beis din, or for HKB’H. Not you or me.

    in reply to: Compelling All Jews to Perform Mitzvos and Follow Halacha #852003
    yichusdik
    Participant

    greatest, let me ask you a question. If your child (just for example) decided he refused to wear tzitzis every day, would you then compel him by beating him black and blue until he listened? How do you think his love for and respect for you would be impacted? How do you think his appreciation of Torah would be affected? Would it grow or diminish?

    What is the value of such a mitzvah performed only because he is afraid of being further injured and hurt? What is the relationship between the individual beaten and his family? By extension, what would then be the relationship between the transgressor and the community that compels him, let alone between him and HKBH?

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852588
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, my great grandfather and g grandmother, two of my great aunts/uncles – those who survived, their kids, all came to Israel at the same time as the Teimanim. They had nothing left after the war, and came to Israel with a bit more than the teimanim, but not much. My G grandparents maintained their level of frumkeit, but 1/2 of their children in Israel much less so. Some of THEIR grandchildren are frum, and have even become more frum, but others have not. Bottom line, They came, lived, worked and did their best in a very trying time. No one forced them to work on shabbes, no one forced them to eat treif. When my cousins were in the army, there was no such thing as a netzach yehuda battalion, but no one forced them to be mechallel shabbes (with the exception of wartime, where the heter is clear. I recall the head of the Gerer community in the city where I live telling me about the radio they brought in to the shul/shteeble on Yom Kippur 1973, to let people know about call ups, including the army’s chevra kadisha). “Forced” is the word you used, and in the context of a state that means policy or law.

    And Health, I don’t need excuses. You want to be the Tzedoki insistent on ignoring “vechai bohem”, go right ahead. You know what they ended up as, despite having pure intentions. I’ll stick with the way of the perushim.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852574
    yichusdik
    Participant

    And I notice none of the apologists for those who arrogated the “right” to “import” Jews from Teiman to keep them from the tziyonim has touched the issue of the tragic story of the Jaradi family. Figures.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852573
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Hah, Health, you made me laugh. You aren’t going to do the research for me! you don’t need to, I already have, and guess what? I haven’t found any regulation, legislation, or policy from the Israeli govt and the Jewish agency to do what you claim (shmad) BECAUSE THERE NEVER WAS SUCH A POLICY! Your circular logic is mind boggling. That’s why I said, show me evidence, (perhaps I missed something) and I will concede the point.

    Oh, and by the way, If I am nogeyah b’dovor, what are you? objective?

    Sushe, I responded to the accusation that a specific community (the Teimanim) were targeted and in an organised way, official bodies of the state and the Jewish agency determined policy and implemented it to “shmad” them. I asked for proof. It has not been forthcoming. I said I would not be surprised if on a small scale it did happen, on the twisted agenda of an individual or a few individuals, but I reiterated that if it was policy, as was claimed, there would be evidence. There has been none shown.

    Again, the tzioni establishment in the 50’s had priorities that were way more pressing, needed much attention and most of the precious few resources available in Israel at the time. Instituting an agenda such as has been suggested here magnifies the relevance to and interest in the frumkeit of the population to a level it never achieved until the late 70’s. To put it bluntly, few tzionim cared very much if frum yidden stayed frum, got more frum, or less frum. Compared to their concerns about the economic crisis, the food shortages, the fedayeen, the border incursions, the labor unrest, the massive influx of people who needed food, clothing, and shelter, it simply wasn’t important to them. Perhaps this is what bothered the people Health spoke with so much – being rejected as an irrelevancy rather than a necessity. And it is a shame, truly, because I believe Israel would be a better place, in every way, if it had made imbuing that generation with our heritage a priority.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852559
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, you obviously DO think you can rewrite history to support your agenda.

    R’ Rosenblum is an ehrlicher yid, but did he demonstrate that he was discussing policy, legislation, or law? You have made the simple, understandable error of conflating a columnist, whose job it is to convey opinions, with a reporter, whose job it is to convey facts. I have no problem with R’ Rosenblum’s opinions, he is entitled to them, but he is not a reporter. So you are using an opinion, an unsubstantiated, non-footnoted tertiary source, as evidence.

    I’m not trying to convince you of anything on this point. It’s the other way around. I said I would concede the point if you could show me that it was articulated, legislated policy for the government and its institutions to do what you claim, and that such law or regulation or legislation specifically targeted Teimanim, as you claimed. I am prepared to be corrected by facts, not by your overblown and frankly tiresome rhetoric. I may be longwinded, but at least I don’t say the same thing over and over and over again.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852557
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Greatest. Assuming this happened, was it one or two or five people who insisted on doing such a terrible thing to advance their personal agenda, or was it articulated, legislated, and implemented policy of the state? That is the difference between individual wrongdoing and what you and your supporters call a “shmad”.

    If you are making a blanket accusation about the state of Israel or the Zionist movement, at the time you are discussing they had institutions, including the Jewish agency and the knesset, and those institutions have ample documentary evidence of everything they did during that period. There are records of pretty much everything that was decided and done by the government and its institutions. Even secret things, and many authors have taken advantage of the access they have to records of policies, actions, courtcases, guidelines and laws to criticize the State for any number of things. I’m not asking you to reinvent the wheel. I’m telling you that if it happened, and it was policy, the evidence is in documentary form, so back up your assertions with facts.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852550
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, and your fellow travelers, it’s time you learned that saying “everyone knows” or assuming that “everyone” thinks along the same lines and has the same blinkered and narrow perspective and sources that you do may be comforting, or self assuring, but it is simply a poor substitute for reporting facts or actually looking at sources. And it is further something that you should be aware of that everybody, whether pro or anti zionist, religious or secular, has an agenda.

    I know that the Teimanim came from a pre modern subsistence existence in a hostile environment to a challenging economic and social situation in post 1948 Israel where everyone’s priority was having enough to eat and defending themselves from bloodthirsty neighbors bent on revenge for their defeat. It was a shock to the system for them and they did not have the communal infrastructure in place that European refugees had when they came from the DP camps.

    Undoubtedly some of them turned away from observance. And, possibly, some of those in the secular majority were pleased to see it. But you are deluding yourself if you think that the tziyonim had more interest in or resources to devote to purposely erasing the religiosity of the Teimanim than they had in feeding and clothing them, putting a roof over their head, defending them, (and everyone else) and slowly building the country, a process that took more than 20 years. It is a false narrative built on smug self importance (if it is the way WE perceive it, then it must be true, and the way everyone else perceives it). SO please, demonstrate to me in legislative or regulatory policy from the period of 1949 through 1967, in FACTS, that you are right. IF you don’t have the evidence, don’t waste everyone’s time. If you do, and can show that it was aimed specifically at the Teimanim with the specific and singular intent to destroy their observance, I will concede the point.

    The truth is that the chareidi population in Israel in the first twenty to thirty years of its existence was almost a complete political and social irrelevancy, an afterthought, and generally left to its own devices, for better or worse. It was only during the ascendancy of Begin and the Likud in the seventies that politics and policy started to pay attention.

    By the way, you should find out about the the sad story of Yahia Jaradi and his family from Yemen, and what happened to them, if you want to talk about shmad.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852538
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Three judicial commissions of inquiry, the last one lasting 7 years and concluding in late 2001, found that of the 1,033 supposedly “disappeared” Teimani children, 972 were tracked down and – the documents were shown to the commission to prove they were not kidnapped by anyone. 5 were found to have died of illness, and 56 were unaccounted for, though an additional 22 were thought to have died of illness. That accounts for 979 to 999 of 1033, or 95% to 97% of the children accounted for. 34 to 56 children unaccounted for is a tragedy, and if there is any substantial evidence found of an organized plan to steal them away it is an outrage, but it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a shmad. There are 300,000 Teimani Jews living in Israel today. the unaccounted for are 0.01% of those.

    Zionists aren’t the only ones capable of producing, or being susceptible to propaganda.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852529
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Hakatan makes quite the statement about the world before zionism. For the record, wishing does not make it so.

    “Before Zionism, Teimanim had their mesorah and yahadus since bayis rishon and tens of thousands of sefardim were also still observant Jews, as would have been their descendants today and beyond.”

    Even at the outset of Islamic rule in Yemen, Jews had to pay the Jizya tax, could not build any beis knesses above a certain height, had the social status of dhimmi, and sometimes had to wear distinctive clothing. But when the Shia muslim Zaidi clan came to power about 1100 years ago, they began to persecute teimani Jews in horrible ways, much as the Zaydi descended Houthi clan of the northwest of Yemen is doing now, calling for the murder of all Jews, and recently murdering one of the few Rabonim left there. They were not allowed to raise a hand to defend themselves if beaten; they were forced to walk barefoot in non Jewish parts of towns; they were not allowed to touch food or other items belonging to muslims; they were regarded as impure in muslim law. And contrary to your perception of their ditinctive purity, there were at least three false moshiach movements among teimanim, making them no less susceptible than Europeans and mizrachim to such movements. And as for the vicious lies spread by some about the “disappearance” of Teimani children, when an actual investigation was done, 96% of them were found to be exactly where expected, with about 50 who couldn’t be tracked down, including those who r’l had died young.

    “Before Zionism, the Arabs did not virulently hate the Jews, and were generally cordial and even friendly.”

    Not all arabs hated Jews all the time. Not all of them followed the laws of persecution all the time. But many, if not most, were guided by their Hadith (a muslim oral tradition of great importance to them) to treat Jews negatively. There is the famous hadith describing the “garkhad tree” calling out to the faithful muslim to come catch the Jew hiding behind it and kill him. One of the most famous hadith, and you can find many instances of it being repeated in mosques today. It was written 1200 years ago and more by Rasul Sultan. Do not talk about that with which you are wholly ignorant.

    “Even post-Zionism, some Arabs still recognize the fraud that is Zionism and correctly do not equate Zionism with, lihavdil, Judaism.”

    Yes, such statements are often made by some arabs. The same arabs who then accuse the Jews of controlling the media, or of controlling the banks, or of conspiracies like 9-11 being an inside Zionist job.

    “Before Zionism, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in Eretz Yisrael (Just to head off the uninformed question, the Chevron Massacre was a direct result of *religious* Zionism – please excuse the paradox – according to Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was there.)”

    How dare you. My great uncle was also there. By lucky chance he was at home in Yerushalayim that shabbes…His classmates were all murdered. He wasn’t from a Zionist family, and neither were the other victims. and the man responsible for fomenting the riots was Haj Amin al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. A man who took Jew hatred to a new level, who spent the war in Berlin with Hitler, and raised a muslim SS division in Bosnia. Do some research, his smiling face shaking hand with the Fuhrer is easy to find.

    “Before Zionism, Jews were not seduced into becoming “post-Jewish” and culturally manipulated by (Zionist) Jews into giving up their faith in favor of Zionism.”

    Before Zionism there was something called the Haskala, perhaps you heard of it? Secular Zionists had their deep foundations in the Haskala movement. And, on another tack entirely, you may not care about those pesky numbers called statistics, but if you were to look at those on secular Jews coming back from zionist birthright trips, you would find that those “manipulated” souls were much more likely to go to a shul, participate in a Jewish program, date Jewish, and MARRY Jewish after their Zionist Birthright experience. But of course, those are just statistics.

    “Before Zionism, there was no need to send every young man and woman of 18 years old into the anti-Torah army that is the IDF nor was there the need for them to risk their life and limb by doing so.”

    Yes, you are right on this one, there was no need, because before Zionism the only armed men most Jews would see was the Cossack coming to disembowel him and steal his children, or the Priest inciting a demented mob to burn his house down on his and his family’s head. No need to risk life and limb. none at all.

    May Hashem redeem us all, completing the true Geulah, BB”A.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852525
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Torah Yid you need to read Josh’s post straight. He clearly says leaders of the Chashmonoim AFTER the Chanukah story. Of course the later Chashmonai kings were anti-Perushim, especially Alexander Yannai. Does anyone actually learn Jewish history anymore, or do we just wing it and modify it to suit our ideological needs?

    in reply to: Non Judgmental thread, By Popa #849300
    yichusdik
    Participant

    It strikes me that we have a situation that is unique. Today, Everyone from Gedolim to the most casual learner has access to the entire corpus of Torah shebichsav and Torah Shebealpeh, and almost every sefer written since the gemara was concluded is either extant or referenced in another sefer. At times, there were communities where even a shas was an impossibility to have or see (for example in France in the late 13th century, after almost every shas was burned) and the conduit for halachic knowledge narrowed to one or two Rabbonim in each city. And now, more than ever in history, there are growing numbers of talmidei chachomim or at least competent learners who can access all of those texts. In my opinion this poses both a danger and an opportunity, as seen from a halachic viewpoint. The opportunity is to have a more halachicly literate am yisroel, who have the capacity to find relevant halachos and teshuvos as well as the capacity to ask a Rov for guidance. The danger is that not only are those sources available to bnei Torah, they are available to everyone, and those without a vested interest in a halachic life may view and use that corpus of halacha in ways foreign to frum communities. There is also the danger (perceived or real, I don’t know), that frum Jews will make more recourse to the corpus of halachic material they have access to, and will perhaps do so when they might or should be seeking further guidance from a Rov.

    How does this relate to the initial post? Well, again, in my opinion, the natural, and I think the intuitive response to these dangers from what we could call “halachic leadership” is to raise more gedarim, create stricter community standards, and generally engage in what the OP described as a slide to the right. It would serve the purpose of “protecting” the community from transgression and it would also remind the community that Jewish communities have a structure and that structure relies on the guidance of the Rabbinic leadership.

    Now, there may be questions raised as to if the intuitive response is the best or the only response to the challenge I presented above, but I think that is beyond the scope of this thread.

    Notice how this post observes, but is not judging.

    in reply to: Rav Elyashev Bans Nachal Chareidi #848652
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Wait for it, Avi. 5 minutes until someone calls it a forgery.

    in reply to: Someone who 'doesn't want' to get married? #849890
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health says “if they aren’t frum, who cares?”…

    sums up the weakness of too large a proportion of the chareidi velt. The gemoro tells us kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh.It didn’t specify only the frum. I won’t give you personal stories of meeting gedolim like Rav Noach Weinberg ztl or the Lubavitcher Rebbe ztl or the alter Bobover Rebbe ztl, and talking about their committment to every single Jew. I will tell you that where i live, there is a large, strong chareidi community. Every element of that community, from the Gerer, Bobover, Lubavitcher and other chassidishe shteeblach, to the multiplicity of kollels and litvishe yeshivos, to the MO kehilos, as well as the Agudas Yisroel and others and hundreds if not thousands of balabatim and their wives and their families are involved in the strong arms of the kiruv movement for children, teens, singles and families. There is no element of the frum-chareidi part of the kehilo that takes your attitude of “who cares”. Boruch Hashem.

    And now I understand your posts and your perspective on a whole range of issues much better.

    in reply to: flights to toronto #846860
    yichusdik
    Participant

    GOQ, they could use the help.

    in reply to: flights to toronto #846850
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Toi is right. I just got an email a few days ago from porter “book online before midnight on February 3, 2012. Travel by May 31, 2012. Use promo code JAN50”

    Also, Porter flies from the Island airport in downtown Toronto – less busy than Pearson, very nice preflight lounge for all passengers.

    in reply to: Rav Elyashev Bans Nachal Chareidi #848570
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Just a follow up to the discussion about Rav Ada’s actions described in Brachos daf chof omud alef. I looked at a few more sources, and concluded that there are three schools of thought and interpretation. One is as mdd wrote, that the woman who turned out to be not Jewish, was wearing red, which is interpreted by some as being untznius, and so Rav Ada tore it from her. The second, is the interpretation of Rashi as explained by the Maharshal, is that the woman was wearing a very expensive garment, and Rav Ada thought it was gaiva and not pritzus to be wearing it. The third one I found is brought by Rav Adin Shteinzaltz, who found sources indicating that the karbolta that the woman was wearing was a garment known to be made of shatnez, and that is why he tore it from her.

    The one element of the “pritzus” argument that no one mentioned here and would be impossible to contemplate Rav Ada doing, is that a man ripping a garment off of a woman would create an even bigger problem of tznius and the woman would be more, not less exposed.

    In any case this demonstrates conclusively that far from it being “obvious” that the gemoro was talking about pritzus, an Acharon explains a Rishon as saying it has absolutely nothing to do with pritzus, and one of the greatest gemoro scholars of the last century says it also has nothing to do with pritzus.

    in reply to: English corresponding to Hebrew #846502
    yichusdik
    Participant

    oomis, I’m a fan of your posts and I don’t want to come across as negative or critical so please take my disagreement as a matter of academic interest, and nothing else. I’ve studied history extensively and etymology a little, with broad non-academic interest in both. I’m familiar with primary source material from the US military during the second word war, from American historians like Stephen Ambrose and Carlo D’este and ex-soldiers like E.B. Sledge, where many US soldiers are quoted, and I’ve seen the word used several times. It must be understood that there were virtually no speakers of colloquial, conversational Hebrew outside of Israel before the 1950’s, and the word copacetic definitely showed up before that. Also, from an etymological point of view, there isn’t much difference in usage between “he’s cool” and “it’s OK”. Finally, had you considered that a US soldier hearing an Israeli saying Hakol Beseder, as you suggest, simply misheard a hebrew phrase for an already extant colloquially used word in American english, and that is the extent of it, a similarity?

    in reply to: English corresponding to Hebrew #846500
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Oomis, this is from the Oxford English Dictionary, 1919,

    You may be unfamiliar with early American jazz music, but it was a term well used by jazz musicians in common usage between ww1 and ww2, growing in popularity and beyond the jazz culture during that time.

    in reply to: English corresponding to Hebrew #846496
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Regarding copacetic – It first appeared in a dictionary in 1919, and it is almost certain to have originated in the USA. The two theories that have been put forward regarding hebrew origins are that Jewish shopkeepers in the south may have used the phrase hakol b’seder or hakol b’tzedek, and this may have been heard by gentiles as copacetic. The problem is that no-one used everyday hebrew conversationally at the time, certainly not in the US. A Jewish shopkeeper would have been much more likely to say “alles is in ordnung” in Yiddish/German than to use Hebrew. Hakol b’seder is an Israeli expression that came into use at the earliest after WW2, so it obviously cannot have influenced usage in 1919. There is no consensus on what the origin of the word is, but almost all etymologists discount a Hebrew origin.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852507
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Yes, yes, that’s the way to censor a sefer – that was written long before you or I were born. “It must be someone with an agenda.” “It can’t be glach if it doesn’t fit my worldview.”… Like many sforim, it didn’t come to us in 100% pristine and complete form. The editor who is the namesake of the Vilna Gaon’s father and is a descendant, had a significant kaboloh, and it impressed the talmidei chachomim who wrote haskomos for him.

    In fact R’ Binyomin Rivlin, who was the father of R’ Hillel of Shklov who wrote the (original and complete) sefer Kol Hator, was also influenced by his cousin the Gaon regarding issues of the geuloh and he spoke about them, and these sources are distinct from Kol Hator. In any case the mid-60’s edition of the sefer had haskomos from the leadership at Ponevitch and some of the editors of Rav Dessler’s work Michtov Me’eliyohu. R’ Shlomo Zalman Rivlin who is apparently the source of some controversy for his attempt to publish the sefer (not backed by some propaganda machine, but very slowly, in small quantities, because he was a singular talmid chochom and a beloved chazan with few resources), was no lackey for anyone with an agenda.

    in reply to: Bnos Sarah vs. Machon Raaya #846684
    yichusdik
    Participant

    789 jkl I would suggest that for these girls you should speak with your local NCSY director, they send girls to seminary every year, some already beyond the point you describe, some not there yet. One school I have heard of spoken very highly for this is Machon Maayan. There is also a kiruv oriented one year program associated with Bar Ilan University. ALso ask @ NCSY about it.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852493
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, I reject your premise that the state and its citizens are kofrim and it is based on kfira. I am sure that the Gaon was not talking about one based on kfira. He didn’t specify what the atchalta degeula would look like in terms of what type of government would be in place during these times and before the ultimate geula of moshiach ben dovid. I don’t know what it would look like and neither do you. and if you have any familiarity with the concepts of Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben Dovid, you will know that they and the kind of leadership they engender in bnei yisroel are quite different. BTW you didn’t answer abelleh’s question.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852489
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Actually, Toi, the Vilna Gaon’s entire discussion of the idea, of Moshiach (both ben Yosef and ben David – which were you talking about?) is found in the sefer Kol HaTor, which he wrote with his Great-Nephew Rav Hillel Shklover. In it, he introduces his formula for the “yomim” that will pass from the time he determined began the atchalta degeula (5500 or 1740 CE) until the zman. The nearest that it comes to the dates you cite in your post (I don’t know if you are talking about November 1947 at the UN, or May 1948) is two to three years earlier in 1945. He was pretty clear about the dates in his sefer. Check it out, its in the first perek.

    BTW, there is a huge amount of evidence and information in his sefer that provides support for the establishment of a state, for example, his interpretation that it can be taken by force if necessary.

    in reply to: What's the argument against having a Madina? #852482
    yichusdik
    Participant

    longarekel, perhaps you should prove that it is only in force until the decree of galus. from the text.

    By the way, Rashi on the posuk in Bamidbor would seem to disagree with you. On “v’yishavtem boh” he says “tochlu l’hiskayem boh, v’im lav, lo tochlu l’hiskayem boh.” Which clearly indicates that it applies when you are able to establish yourself there.

    in reply to: I just know this is going to go the wrong way #844642
    yichusdik
    Participant

    “Honestly folks, if you know where the bus originates and it is in a frum area and you got on in that area and no Arabs or funny looking people were on with you, then you can pretty well rely on the probability that it belongs to a frum person and is not a chafetz chashud.”

    Nechama, one simple question. Why? I know that like me, you have seen the images of what can happen CH’V. You probably know people, as I do, who have survived such piguot or possibly you knew people who did not survive. Why take the chance?

    I had the opportunity to get to know a man by the name of Steve Averbach. He was one of the principal trainers of the Magav elite Yamam anti-terror unit, and was known as perhaps the best small-arms shot and instructor in Israel. He was riding the bus to French hill on the afternoon of May 18, 2003, and it was half full. He saw a man get on the bus, dressed as a chareidi Jew. No one else noticed anything suspicious, but he saw something amiss as the man got on the bus. He knew there was a Bais Yaakov that had just let out and the next stop would fill up the bus. He drew his weapon and screamed to get down. The bomber blew himself up, killing seven people, but it would have been many more if Steve hadn’t acted. Steve was wounded and left a quadriplegic. I met him less than a year after the bombing, and again the next year. He had decided that as challenging as his life as a quadriplegic was, he wanted to give over his love of eretz yisrael and am yisrael to young Jews from chu’l, and so he met with birthright groups, Aish groups, and others, as much as he could. Steve succumbed to his injuries a couple of years ago in 2010. TN’B.

    Why do I tell you this? Simply because not taking chances and assuming everything is OK, and instead taking action, saves lives.

    in reply to: Kudos to R. Levanon #844083
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Oh? he is leading up to it? I suppose he told you this personally?

    in reply to: Kudos to R. Levanon #844079
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Please do not fall into hypocrisy. Rav Levanon served in keva and in miluim; He has never said he wouldn’t go back to reserve if necessary or that he will tell all of his thousands of graduates not to do miluim; He is simply resigning his position so that he will have the right to be critical of policy. In fact, that in itself is a huge recognition on his part of the authority of the medinah and the IDF, that he felt necessary to remove himself from a position where he was under military authority before he criticized.

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