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Aseh > Before we start worrying about reconciling science with Torah (not reconciling Torah with science, chas v’sholom), let’s first make sure we understand what the Torah actually says.
it is a good point, but also note that it all goes together. Not many people are completely isolated from the environment – even those who have no cell phones and radios in the car, go to shul with someone who knows someone who is watching MSNBC or Ben Shapiro. So, if they do not have skills to understand modern life, whether science or sociology, they will fall prey to someone’s opinions about those topics, and you can just pray that those will not be most destructive ones.
clarifying Biden’s influence based on ballotpedia:
he endorsed 2 primary candidates, one of them just conceded
in 2020, he endorsed
8 senators (50% won), 33 reps (7 or 21% won), 3 governors (1 won), state reps (1 out of 5),
he endorsed more in 2018, I am not going to countTrump:
in these primaries senator (6 out of 6, 10 pending), house looks like 100 total (half won, half pending, 1 removed) , governor (3 out of 6, rest listed pending),Mod, please rename this thread to “Trumpism won in Amerika, Bidenism does not exist”
Avira > chabad are the only Jews who think there’s value in getting random frei people to put tefilin on once, and that this brings the geulah.
your mind always focusing on finding where someone is wrong. Naturally, your sharp mind finds it in any group you believe are wrong. Rinse, repeat. I know a lot of ehrliche yidden, ranging from moschihists to normal Chabad to non-Chabad to anti-Chabad who were educated by Chabad shluhim. Some were indeed first stopped on campus by “excluse me, are you Jewish”, others came to shul themselves.
I am sure these shluchim will get their reward in olam habo, even if they obnoxious or ignorant in some other ways. I hope, but less sure, that you’ll get reward for your sharp opinions. There are a lot of opinions saying that value of Torah learning is devalued by personal shortcomings.
n0 > It was published over a hundred years ago.
please give me a reference on what you are talking about. But then again, staying with statistical false impressions – there may be 100 books with 100 opinions printed in 1900, then 1 of them predicts something in the future – does not mean that the public opinion was really on it. But I checked google book ngram (it is like google trends for web, new popularity – but for books back to 1700): there is a indeed a short bump – there are some global warming/climate change discussions in 18th century (whatever that means, there was no man-made global warming at that time),
then a short bump in 1870s, another in 1950s and then really up from 1985> reconcile the teachings of Torah with the teachings of science.
> Just because science says something now that does not mean that tomorrow a newer science will disprove and overturn it.
> Separate the two, not reconcilethese opinions cover a lot 🙂 I think each of them have validity.
You can live nice ehrliche life without being bothered by science. Just don’t post noreshkeit and hate presuming you know better than those who pay attention.
Science indeed changes, and Talmidei Chachamim both made conclusions based on science of their time and acknowledged limitations, especially when masorah is different, such as argument whether the world was created from nothing (science acknowledged that 100 years ago with Big Bang theory).
Studying and reconciling seems like a fascinating approach for anyone who is interested in how Hashem created and runs the world. Possibly, He wants us to engage in that exploration. I forgot who says that pre-flood long lives were required because of lack of writing – so every person had to live enough to collect enough astronomical data and make conclusions about how the world is made.
I usually find rewarding to do deeper than usual learning, focusing on a small number of subjects, maybe from different aspects (here you can bring Tanach, Mishna, etc). I once moved to a new town around Pesach. On Shvues, the Rav invited several people to his house and we had a great learning experience. In the morning, I thanked the Rav for the learning, he looked at me and said – you’ve been at multiple divrei torah I said already and only now you are saying it was good?! Tirutz (that I did not express on the spot) – difference between regular and Shvues learning …
n0 > I do not recall ever seeing a parking meter in Lakewood.
True, me too. But I thought things changed with the growth. Glad to hear it did not.
n0 > I do not recall ever seeing a parking meter in Lakewood.
True, me too. But I thought things changed with the growth. Glad to hear it did not.
If you have a gun, it sounds like a mitzva to keep in a safe place and know how to use responsibly (fence on the roof, indirect damage ). So, you should presume that a Rav who is packing, is packing it kosher. If the Rav is not, then he needs to be fired for the aveirah of not being careful based on a random inspection asking to demonstrate his skills.
YS > The Second Amendment is so anti-Torah it’s sickening.
While Torah commands us to have judges and police, I don’t think there is a mitzva to exclusively rely on them. There are multiple militias in Tanach – David, Yiftach … Plishtim prohibited Jews from making metal to limit weaponry – anti-2nd amendment in action. True, hunting for pleasure is not seen as kosher.
YS > Out of all kiruv organizations … or that shidduchim marred by their past?
As we discussed, they don’t call themselves “kiruv” and others are trying to copy their approach – imitation is best flattery. But re:shiduchim, I don’t think shluchim family marry their baalei teshuva. Maybe because they know them well 🙂
> you’re not allowed to expose tefilin to ervah;
Chosid shoteh would not swim briskly to save a lady due to hirhurim. Here, they are trying to save figuratively drowning people! (I do not mean putting tefilin on ladies)
YS > French national anthem a niggun which they still sing today.
this is a fascinating moment in history – most of Polish/Litvish/Chasidishe Yidden and Rebbeim were enthusiastic about Napoleon, while Baal Hatanya saw assimilation from (1) Napoleon coming to Eastern Europe (this is like Jews emigrating to America, except the “goldene medinah” coming dictly to Jews”) and (2) did not see Russians going away – realpolitik, Kissinger’s style … We have to admit that he was not very wrong in both aspects.
The machlokes was partially geographic, with Chabad being in current Belorus, while others being in Lita/Poland/Galicia. As we see now, his territory is still under Russia, while others are not.
> make you a mamzer for well over 100 generations.
Presumably, Hashem makes hidden mamzerim vulnerable to a quick death so it is rare to have 3-generation mamzerim (Yevamos ~ 78). I am not sure how the statement “did you hear about 3-generation mamzer” reflect on “hidden mamzerim” of who you, by definition, do not hear.
> #AUTHENTIC YIDDESHKEIT
It is not our fault that the whole world copied Litvishe levush!
Authentic!? I saw Rambam’s photo – he does not look like you at all. Moshe did not recognize what R Akiva was teaching, but at least he recognized him. Moshe probably would pass you on the street and go around, just in case you are a Zoroastrian magi or something.
This is discussed with Moshe, multiple names reflect multiple personality traits, mahbe coming from different observers. Not a given that they all come at birth, though.
In practice, even as parents get a navuah when naming kids, some might be better at this than others (like Manoach who could not figure out anything about the malach). So, giving the kid two names will give you two shots to produce something that corresponds to his personality and lifestyle. For example, a Bernard Feivel can be a politician with the first, or a yeshiva bochur with the second.
n0 > It’s a statistical model. And it’s been ironclad for almost two centuries.
It is a misconception. A model is built on old data. The more parameters (degrees of freedom) you have, the easier it is to fit to the data. As one Baki told me – you can always draw a straight line through any 3 points! (as long as your pen is thick enough). So, it is no wonder that someone constructs a model that works on all historical data. The real test would be to publish the model and see how it works in the future.
Same thing goes with stock market that most of us can not predict “shaa ahas” in advance, kal v’homer, 100 years. As financial advisor asked an economics professor – if you are so smart (explaining economics), why are you not so rich? [The retort was: if you are so rich, why are you not so smart].
Practically speaking – we saw how one month of covid dramatically reduced economic activity in the whole world (and price of oil went below zero) and then a month of war sent oil to the roof and fired up coal … so, when global warming will start really hurting the world, we can always reduce activity, seed clouds, paint the whole globe in reflective color, bomb Chinese coal factories … Solve today’s problems today and don’t try to feed Russian monsters in order to save your beaches tomorrow.
TS Baum> you take things SOOO seriously
nobody accused me of THIS before, even Syag!
Avira > No group of jews ever believed that putting boxes on clueless frei people with the status of goyim or captured babies brings the geulah
I was first bothered by your erudite criticism of specific Torah approaches, but now I realize you shoot anything that does not correspond to what people in your kevutza approve. This one is probably the most repugnant – you are not just taking on some intellectual with a different shitah, but denigrating both klal Isroel in general and those people who care about them. Skilah shnei tziporim b’ makah ahas, as they say.
Meanwhile, President Biden has admirable 50% success rate of his endorsements in these primaries. If could have gotten one more, this would be 100%!!
He might have endorsed more, but somehow they were not answering phone, and he does not tweet.
> DNA test says that the child was fathered by the next door neighbor
Yevamos discuss a case of someon who, apparently, can not have children due to a trauma, but then does – does this disprove that he can’t? response – no, suspect the mother …
After many such events, local police in many places parks during services. Be nice, say hello/gut shabbos, bring a cake from shul …
People list cases when guns did not help, but there were cases when it did. for example, there was an attack on a place of worship in Texas, where worshippers responded with precise fire preventing a mass murder. So, even as most Jews do not carry, maybe we should ….
In shul, you need some safety measures, of course. No guns during kriya, for example, so that bad reading and corrections do not trigger anyone.
great idea! I thought of doing Shekalim, but kids reminded me that – by mistake – I did it when I was learning Bavli! So, I’ll take Kodashim.
another type of inflation. If everyone goes back to wearing triangular hats and turbans, then Rebbes/Chacham could just wear black hat/multi-colored turbans. Otherwise, soon yeshiva ketinah will introduce velvet so that kids do not feel lower, and the Rebbes will have to go for gold …
> sofek mamzer is worse off than a known mamzer.
if everyone is sofek mamzer, then nobody can marry nobody, except those who are mamzerim vadai. In such, invesrted, world, hasan and kalla would need to bring kosher witnesses to certify that their parents were brother and sister, or bring a ketuba with other than a father’s name, and beis din need to investigate date of kesuba being before the birth. I am sure, there will be fakers, who will not reveal that the husband gave a get, trying to fool this opposite beis din.
> Hashem gave us plastic,
No, he did not. Hashem gave us daas and hishtadlus to develop science and technology to make plastics.
n0 > A serious learner should always have what to say.
R Salanter had a different opinion: you should always preach Yiddishkeit. Sometimes even with words.
Syag, thank you! “I learned the most from my students”, best learning is achieved by teaching (including by preparing to teach).
interestingly, Greeks (Aristarchus) figured out that Earth runs around the sun and approximate distances to sun and moon, but his theory was rejected because they could not see any parallax from the stars. They did not figure out that stars are too far away.
another interesting question of antiquity – where visible stars (about 1000?) are all that is there, or there are more. Bava Basra talks about it.
Look at Yevamos ~ 66 discussing whether a kid inside a goat designated for karban is a separate entity, connected to a case of a pregnant geyores, This should lead to opinions of whether a baby is a separate person before it is born, including for non-Jews
Important to have priorities straight. Having a lofty mushy goal creates a lot of place for mistaken priorities and opportunities for enemy propaganda. Look at western Europeans who decided that thermometer is a bigger enemy than dictators. Now others are paying for their aveiros that they thought were mitzvos.
n0> everybody and their uncle discourages new kollel wives from continuing their studies.
That makes sense as someone needs to earn a living! But a good learner should be able to share (the essense of) his learning with his spouse while driving her to the store and eating dinner. If I can do it, he can do it. And don’t tell me it is easier for me as I learn less! It is easier for him as he has the whole day – learn for half and think how to summarize for the family the other half.
Avira, yes, this seems like a chazoka – most people I met so far were not aliens (upon verification in case of doubt). So, if someone presents himself as an alien, he needs to prove it.
disagree – Litvakim do not say tachanun and have a l’chaim on all yohrtzeits of all litvishe Rebbes! the rest 355 days of the year, they say tachanun and learn.
is your goal to lose weight or mass? If the former, just move to the Moon or at least Everest.
Well complaining that learning does not poll well is equivalent to admitting that “we, the people” determine what is and is not popular. Start with YWN – if more people would click on an article about learning instead of hadlakos and physical altercations between whomever, I am sure YWN staff will oblige with corresponding content.
Re: shmurah matzah – if anyone is in the business, I suggest ordering shmurah and regular matzah from Ukraine now. They are overflowing with grain that Russians are blocking in Black sea. So, making matza or any other long-lasting product would make economic sense for everyone.
n0, look at SAT. It has questions from several areas and of different levels. You can measure a mix of qualities and abilities.
amom, I think I agree with your evaluation that girls are less prepared because all that is required from them is to have enthusiasm. But then, I disagree with your implications: you first say that girls are not prepared for the hard path, and then that not enough girls got enthusiastic about this path. This may be the issue with the chinuch – a well-meaning teacher posits the goal of raising learners and wives of learners and the raising enthusiasm achieves the goal in the short term. If you were to teach them more seriously and having better expectations, you may end up with less candidates for full-time learners’ wives, but they will be more successful and the rest will choose the path that corresponds to their abilities.
As you imply, the teachers are “fighting” family influences. You seem frustrated that parents are winning too often, but think about all frustrated parents who not only have to pay tuition for their – and your – kids, but also need to fight for respect from the kids.
Halakha, as I understand it says: respect to the Torah teacher who give Olam Habo comes before respect to the parents who give Olam Haze. But in case of parents hiring the teacher, parents get the kavod as they are providers of this olam habo. And if the parent is also a teacher (and most modern yeshiva/seminary-educated parents are), they also get kavod first as they provide bogth olam habo & haze, even if they are not paying much of tuition themselves.
n0 > The concept that there is an outside understanding of what he should be like may get in the way.
I think I understand it now. Beautiful idea. I am not sure I agree. Respect to talmid chacham extends to his wife. I don’t think T’Ch wife is an outsider. She is a full partner.
In practice, when interacting with spouses in teaching, both positive and negative effects on children are usually similar from both spouses. When they were different, I think, wife would be a better teacher more often than other way around, but I think the general biological rule holds here too: males have more distribution of every quality, thus having more on a better tail of the distribution, but also more in the worse.
ubiq > there are a few blat in Yevamos she’d recoil from too
I am not a “progressive” but it seems that R Moshe great-great-grand-son will not agree with this (because R Moshe’s granddaughter might be learning Yevamos).
n0, you are right about learning being different from professions and a (popular) test may lead to only people passing (a trivial) test being accepted. Still, historically, people will have semicha exams, tests when hired as Rabbis … We use a lot of modern tools – search divrei torah by keywords, drive to a shiur, buy books with translation, etc. One of those tools is ability to expand testing from one great teacher to be replicated to many. As an aside, I was skeptical about multitudes of multiple choice questions my kids have in online schools, but I now see the strength of ability to routinely test and get feedback on your performance without hiring a teacher to sit near you and grade your work. As I see, some people here started asking possible questions. Maybe we can collect a bunch of diverse questions to come up with a test and then can go around and report how people/kids performed.
Avira > The notion of intelligent life contradicts the ideas of Hashem not creating something for no reason
As the first Beis symbolizes, we do not know everything that Hashem knows. There might be other worlds that we do not know of (or were as Midrash Rabba posits: אָמַר רַבִּי אַבָּהוּ מְלַמֵּד שֶׁהָיָה בּוֹרֵא עוֹלָמוֹת וּמַחֲרִיבָן, עַד שֶׁבָּרָא אֶת אֵלּוּ) and Hashem does not care for us to know of. If we were to encounter another civilization, then we will have more questions, but until then I would not worry too much.
RW, “global” means in the whole world. America produces same foods as Russia and Ukraine, except maybe sunflower seeds of which Ukrainians seem to be the world leaders, so buy those in bulk now. Check for bugs and shells. But as markets are global, it will affect prices.
Avira,
you may be right and your opponents holding by minority opinion, but generally exalting R Moshe to press people to disregard a different serious posek is simply halachic bullying. With pasken with R yohachan against Resh Lakish in almost all cases, but R Yohanan did not resort to “do you know who I am” argument and one time when it became personal did not end well and is probably a lesson for us.A meter maid?
Is it a thing in Lakewood? This sounds like a profession, even as society might need some so that we all find a place to park, is based on walking around and annoying people for less than a perutah. Not sure who chooses this job. Seems worse than proverbial Roman-time tax collector. And it takes over a person. I once put a quarter into someone’s meter right before a metermaid prpared to write a ticket, and she gave me ayn hara for taking her parnosa away.
n0 > I like the idea of being objective as the goal.
a question to those involved in serious learning: how consistent is self-evaluation in terms of a student understanding his level and his ability to reason. I presume that if a teacher is a great Talmid Chochom, he will give that feedback, but – what if he is not? How does the student know? how does a prospective mechutan knows? Trusts representation of the teacher? Gvirim of the past generation would hire a talmid chacham to evaluate the prospective choson, but this does not seem to be done in our days.
Many professions and hobbies have objective markers – SAT, GRE, marathoner’s times, chess rating… Why don’t we have some public-facing measures that will help learners and others to see the quality of the product? I know that any measurement affects the process and people start learning for the test, but still an imperfect test might be better than none.
n0> Logic does not help one be objective. Compared to other forms of intelligence, it is more subjective…Sevorah in the Talmud does not mean the Logic. … A real learner really learns.
We seem to be using different definitions here and going circles. “explain yourself”, as the famous Logician – the Caterpillar – said to Alice.
ujm > The first one seriously learns for 10 hours; the second one seriously learns only for two hours, and is “battling” his other eight hours there.
I have two job candidates. One works hard the whole day and does not produce anything. Another – works great for two hours and then browses internets. Who would I hire? None of them. Why are your choices so poor?
Seriously, to the person who sits and sits and learns nothing. R Preidah who lived long had a student who required 400 repetitions to learn (note, he learned eventually). He might be better off going to work and having yissachar/zevulun parternship with someone. This is what someone who cares about this guy would suggest (one of the amoraim did this with his son who was not good at learning, then he tried to teach him business ..). If he has no other prospects and is financially secure, it is great if he sits and learns and gets his sechar – 1/400th of infinity is still infinity. Usual caveat – if he is using OPM (other people’s money) this would work only if there is a full disclosure to the donor, whether this is a private philanthropist or a taxpayer, and they are happy to fund his learning