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> Doing your best is doing his best to compare this Corona
Increasing confusion and disbelief in facts accumulates and destroys fabric of the society. One interesting observation I saw is that Russians are using same channels and fake personas to propagate confusion about the war as they used to question masks and vaccines. In one funny moment in 2016, same facebook bot propagated info about a pro- and an anti-trump demonstration in NYC to ensure a proper confrontation.
I don’t see this coupling here though: seems like people who question the war do not overlap much with those who question masks. I guess it means that we get this propaganda virus through long chains: most of us are not subscribed to RT “news” “reports”, but we hear it from someone who heard it from someone, so we all sure that we are all using info coming from “frum” sources. More generally, discussion style here is along the lines everywhere else in the media – throwing slogans, disregarding truth, disrespect to opponents – even if slightly elevated sometimes. That is what mentioned about Amalek that cooled the water for later enemies: you get desensitized to goyishe attitudes by seeing it everywhere and I don’t even see that people coming from more isolated communities behaving better. That is, we are all infected…
mdd1, to be able to discuss this, could you provide your sources for the information:
– what missile was that and how they are use or not used by both armies
– how Kramtorsk more pro-russian than Mariupol or other towns bombed by russians
– what do you mean by pro-russian – population share, language, sentimentmdd1, I think your overall skeptical approach to media is healthy and would work well in many historical situations. for example, debunking Nazi propaganda about Poland allegedly starting a war against them, or NYT describing great life of Ukrainian peasants in 1930s.
I wonder who would you believe with your approach when Nazis claimed to uncover “crimes” of Soviets allegedly killing tens of thousands of Polish officers in Katyn forest? Would you believe the side you happen to sympathize a priori, or would you stay open to both options?
So, if taking this situation to the extreme level of skepticism – should we use prior guilt and history into account? In this case, it is RUS that sent army to UKR. There are also numerous recent cases of RUS saying absolute lies, such as that there were no RUS forces in Crimea in 2014 – and later openly giving them medals. They now seem to be saying that UKR themselves shot their own rail station with precision weaponry and similar nonsense.
md1> Minute details?? Go and look the definition of “genocide”. And of “war crimes”.
Maybe I was not clear. I am saying “ma nafka mina”. what is the practical difference for us? Someone who openly murders people, whether it is a war crime, whether it is crime against humanity, genocide, in all of these cases, they deserve condemnation and presumably are rodfim and chayavim misa. Maybe academically-minded Germans see a difference that they’ll continue buying gas from stam war criminals, but not, h’v from genocidal criminals. They are experts, let them make these distinctions. How different is it for us? Does it matter what UN item Hitler/Stalin/Mao broke when they killed millions of people?
Reb Shlomo > Rav Chaim Zatzal when asked, paskened that it is a chiyuv and not a reshus to get vaccinated and it is on video for all to see.
is this information getting to the velt, or is it not propagated by people not enthusiastic about the the content? If it does, what do people who disagree say?
mdd> why are you concentrating on conducting war in Europe, in Asia they are not human?
I agree on this. Russia’s behavior in Syria was similar in terms of bombing population and it was even noticed that Rs rotated their pilots in an apparent effort to train them. Now we know what they trained for. Europeans are at fault that they did not stop their Russia-friendship project then, concentrating their efforts on receiving refugees that Rs were sending their way.
I am still not sure what major point you are trying to make by questioning minute details and definitions on genocide, etc. Are you trying to make us support Russian behavior, or are you defending purity of legal definitions.
coffee > virus in order to be more virulent it becomes less deadly
this is a general rule of virus propagation that presumes that a deadlier host either quickly kills most hosts or, in human society, causes more preventive measures. So, it is a statistical, not a biological phenomenon. Given that the current pandemic went thru so many people all over the world with very varying behaviors, this is not perfectly followed: Delta turned out to be worse than Wuhan, but Omicron and BA.2 are indeed weaker.
How is this relevant to the fact that vaccines make it even milder, I am not sure. I don’t know though who is promoting vaccines – US has way lower rates, esp of boosters, than comparable countries and no vaccination is happening. People are literally dying because Trump is not the President – if he were, the press would be reminding us every day how bad things are and more people would vaccinate and wear masks.
Btw, anyone has experience with the new woonder drug – Paxlovid?
RebE, Brocha is not kol isha. As far as I know, discussions of women reading Torah or leading men in brochos revolve around other issues, not mentioning kol isha.
mdd> West and Ukraine should not have been provoking the Russian bear.
Whether it was wise or not for Ukraine do what they do does not excuse Russia’s crimes. For comparison, imperfect Jewish politics before hurbanos of batei mikdash does not make Babylonians or Romans tzadikim.
> It is only fine to cancel holochos of derech eretz
Mindful, I am with you on the main points, but maybe we should conclude the opposite – take a lesson from being respectful to medieval kitniyos and apply this attitude to middos.
Also, it is worth celebrating kitniyos – as the new agricultural method that grows beans and wheat in the same fields is responsible for northern Europe overtaking southern in population and power, and similarly of Ashkenazim over Sephardim
mdd > How do you know that the buses can not go in because of the Russians,
1) because reps from international humanitarian organizations say so.
2) Buses stand in UKR-controlled area and are trying to go into RUS-controlled. UKRs who are surrounded inside the city are further down, they do not have access to the highway with RUS checkpoints.Again, this is all for the courts. I am not sure why people are focused on atrocities. Start of the war was a despicable act by itself and should have been firmly opposed. Whatever RUS reasons were, no other country resolved to violence in Europe after WW2, outside of Balkan skirmishes, and Russians could have pursued other avenues even if they had some legit claim, such as cutting gas and blockading the coast.
@mod-29 – one for yetzer hara, one for yetzer hatov? how about gilgulim?
why don’t use guys move to America where people have their own cars?!
can you find someone to help you to pay to cross the bridge?DaMoshe, thanks for a good story. This is the same theme as Akeida, where Avraham has to go against his middah of chesed. For this boy, it is a test whether he never missed mincha because he is serious or because he is OCD and a show-off. You would know the answer by what he does when there is a competing need. Also, a period “from bar mitzva” and “going to friend’s wedding” may not be that long a period according to the Satmar joke about priority between a hasan and a bar mitzva – “whoever is older”. There was a similar story at the early Covid lockdown of an elderly person who never missed davening. When questioned, he said he has no problem, he is doing every day whatever is required that day.
Avira, not sure how Tanya is dangerous here, it seems to give same message. (even as I agree with your sentiment in general).
Doctors told Netziv that he needs a vacation and family members convince him to go to Lithuanian lakes. He ran away back in a couple of days. Of course, those were pre-internet days. Maybe if he could have taught in Volozhin over Zoom, maybe he would have stayed.
Reb E & Chacham Tzvi > I would be matir kitniyos as the more matzos must be baked it becomes harder to watch out against chametz.
This is a case where a humrah is not a humrah because it is a kulah in another aspect. Just had it on the Daf Yevamot ~ 30.
akuperman > If you say quinoa is kosher le-pesach, you are calling into question the halacha against kitniyos.
you are proposing a geder on the geder which is generally not done. We get so attached to our beloved minhagim that we “feel” that they are m’deuraita.
Gadol > you could enter your pesachdike food preferences and find a source that is makil or has a mesorah allowing
Great idea, I used that app and I found a great community that paskened to let me eat not just gefilte fish but also sushi! Then came a (literal) wake up call to do selichos for a month! Give me my Manischewitz back with pri hagofen and not shehakol.
So, a correction: you input all desired kulos into the app and you get the best alternative. Mine came back as “Beis Shammai”…
Syag > There are guidelines to determine if something falls under the halacha of being pikuach nefesh and there has been such a crazy misuse of this over the covid years.
I am relying on these psakim, for example:
R Meir Twersky suggesting that while in a regular medical case we should ask a doctor, in a case of new, uncertain, plague, we need to behave according to the most careful of multiple experts, and also more careful than politicians as we are always more careful about human lives than non-Jewish society in general.
R Heinemann: do not try to do anything that can be misconstrued as uncareful behavior so that Jewish community is not judged and then denied treatment by someone.But you are right that estimation of the risk is somewhat subjective and some risky behaviors are accepted in society and Hashem protects simple folks who take small unnecessary risks. This, of course, does not apply to esteemed YWN posters who were exposed to facts (among other posts) and it does not mean that better behavior is not encouraged. Gemora warns us against drinking cups in pairs and walking between palm trees for a presumed danger. Surely, amoraim would not approve a clearly quantifiable danger.
> “A sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
I presume if you ate 2-3 meals yesterday, but now you are hungry – I hope you are not going to do the same mistake again -I know many people who ate and died within several days! And you need to pay for that expensive food!
His previous shots gave him a year with high antibodies and increasing T-cell immunity at a very low risk. Why not continue training your immune system to better fight the virus without actually encountering it? Especially as the alternative is to periodically encounter the virus itself.
mdd > The Russians stopping the convoys trying to take people out? And you know that how?
From international organizations trying daily to bring supplies to the cities and being stopped or attacked. From satellite images showing buses staged for days at the nearby cities. From seeing videos and interviews with people who left in cars, but no buses. From Ukrainians citizens who were taken to Russian territory who managed to leave Russia after that.
All these questions will be sorted out by the courts in several years. Ma nafka mina now? Significance seems to be that international community becomes outraged by the atrocities and increases sanctions and military assistance. While this is important in practice, I don’t think we here should care. Do we think that attacking another country the way Russia did is OK? killing thousand of people OK whether there is ICC jurisdiction or not?
huju, maybe I was not clear – I meant to say exactly opposite – ask people who are not in position of power and see how a prospective match interacted with them as this is most revealing of their character, as you seem to be also saying.
> your sister is bombarding each of the dayanim
Why would people call dayanim all the time? Most likely, the talmid was repsectful to the dayan. I would rather ask friends and baalei batim and even the school cleaners (presuming they speak English) how the person interacts with them.
mdd > like dropping a huge bomb on a single enemy soldier hiding near an apartment building.
I think there are some facts that are impossible to not to believe even if weigh heavily possible Ukrainian propaganda, such as:
There was a theatre in the center of Mariupol with several thousand people in the basement with the word “children” visible on two sides of the building in the satellite imagery.
There are international humanitarian convoys that are trying to bring food and take people out of the same city for several weeks and are stopped by the Russian army checkpoints.
This is an issue not just for Jewish community. In US in general, women now outnumber men in college and do not want to have shiduchim with men without a degree. A shidduch crisis indeed. I would say the medical student should be able to find herself a real qualified learner and it will be a good match. She can verify it by asking a couple of questions related to shechita and Gemora’s medical remedies.
When mentioning “academia”, please differentiate between empirical science and voodoo academics. The first one gives us information. Gemora accept sevorah as a very valid argument by itself, there is nothing “handmaid”-ish in using our collective mind to resolve issues with the minds that Hashem provided us for that reason. In many cases, issues that Chachamim speculated about are now empirical issues that we can see via microscope or telescope. Please tell me how would Rambam treat this evidence were he to live in our times.
The rest of academia that is based on their own values is not of much interest to us, of course.
TLIK > You listed issues that are of really dubious value
I was only partially serious indeed. But why not? One of the problems in modern world is too many choices that makes it hard to commit, expecting a better something later on. So, why not eliminate possible friction items off the table? We have here otherwise reasonable people not being able to agree on whether Hunter Biden is Joe Biden’s son or not. Could you imagine Hasan and Kalla having this argument?! Even if their positions are both unsupported (or maybe especially then), it is better for them to have the same opinions.
You can also say that same opinions and habits are simanim that their middos and attitudes are similar. For example, do we have many families where spouses disagree on a bitter topic of covid behaviors. There are some but most are closer to each other, I think, than two random people from the same community. This is a novel issue that was not discussed at the shiduch but some commonality leads to similar thinking.
Avira > Dealing with the prospect of a get before even getting married is a recipe for disposable marriages
I deduce your wife’s kesuba did not include financial stipulations?
Gemora says that if someone has $1 mln dollars, he wants another $1 mln – here is a country with the biggest territory in the world and it needs more buffer space.
As to atrocities, this is already clear for several weeks, now we just get evidence for court proceedings. Politicians who are saying “now, it is different” are not honest – they could have deduced it from the satellite images of destroyed buildings weeks ago. The images are done by commercial companies that anyone can acquire.
Gadol, would you agree that willful suppression of information should at least qualify as campaign contribution? Even if you wrote off media as part of partisan politics, social media companies are under legal cover of neutral service provider. Not being a lawyer, I don’t know whether there is any redress beyond electing Congress that will take those protection away, but this behavior does sound illegal to me.
re: superficial questions. They might be useful given the large number of potential candidates available with current mobility. Why not limit the candidates to those who eat or not gebrochts, daven same nusach, vote the same way, pine for the same team, and squeeze the proverbial toothpaste from the same side. After reducing the friction, parents can consider other more important factors after that or leave it to the youngeles themselves.
That said, here is some useful advice I heard:
– from a Rosh kollel: “I asked only one question – are the parents honest in business”. Of course, this might be too humble. It leaves unsaid that he expected the family to have a business and probably multitude of other things that a Rosh Kolllel may take for granted
– from a Lakewood Rebbetzin: she inquired with families where the hasan was paying attention and good with their children, and she went to his shul to see how seriously he is davening. (This was not for her children’s shidduch, but for her own).re: who can comment on Rambam:
Not being learned up to bring proofs, but I have a general feeling from limited cases: many, not all, traditional commentaries if not argue but at least try to fit Rambam into other shitot and often smooth opinions that are uncomfortable for them. While this is a respectable derech (as long as no book burning occurs), it is distinct of trying to follow in Rambam’s derech as it is. The latter obviously has it’s own dangers as evident in simplistic maskilim and Reformim, etc, but maskilim do not discredit rational and science-aware approach more than astrologists discredit mazalot mentioned in the Gemora. At the end, Rambam gave us valuable tools to address modernity and, while we need to be careful how we employ them, we should not discard them also.Who said we need to discretize the globe into 24 zones with same tim ein each of them? Is this halakha l’Moshe l’Sinai?
Maybe have one US-wide time? Ok, the left coast will need to get up a little earlier…. Russia might have a problem with this. Or go to another extreme: everyone should have time based on their exact location. When NY has 9:00, Monsey time is still 8:55, so you can sleep for 5 extra minutes. And Long Islanders can start davening earlier. Everyone can go to the town with the preferred lifestyle to a minute.
Avram > However, the goyishe bossman does, and tells us to be seated in our fuzzy-walled cells interacting with the glowing rectangle in the morning
Oh, so your problems go well beyond the circle with a stick! get yourself a sensible boss, or sensible AND Jewish, or be your own boss. I used to always get a trouble with a second boss in a company (the first one would be the one who hired me and knew why he wanted me there, but after a random transfer I would get a regular boss).
>> I’LL BE HOME AT MINCHA GEDOLA AND I HOPE TO BE ABLE TO REPORT THE RESULTS OF THIS EXPERIMENT.”
> I bet it’d go over better in December than in June.
Or maybe other way around? Maybe she prefers me earning or learning instead of “helping” at home?
yes, indeed Bava Basra 25 (R Akiva) says that tanneries should not be in the west so that wind does not bring them into the city.
This does not seem to match the low latitude, but wind directions depend on other factors also, like sea. Prevailing winds in Israel are indeed W and WNW. In Yerushalaim, it is West, Except on Rosh Hashsana and Shvues where North is a little more frequent than West. Bnei Brak (aka Tel Aviv) is even more Westerly.
In Bavel, winds are more North than West, so not sure what Gemora makes out of it, but most Rishonim lived with westerly wind, so seems nobody disagrees. I do not see any discussion of this in commentaries, even Steinsalz, does Artscroll mention that this halakha may depend on location!?
Avram, thanks for this important correction. Westerly wind is from Lat 35 deg and up and is indeed relevant to European/American history. Yerushalaim, Bavel, Baghdad are around and below 35 and prevailing wind is opposite – NorthEast, not West. I presume these areas that are close to 35 have smallest effects. I think Bava Basra discusses directions of davening and wind.
Maybe I misunderstand – Kuzari among sources that discourage analysis of emunah? I thought that is what Kuzari does.
>> “Everyone must have a Rov.”
> Source?
Aharei Rabim lehatot!
So, at least two.
smerel > scientific peer reviewed paper about something that can’t be proven true with a clear cause and effect
thanks, this seems to pointing out to the issue at hand. A lot of emerging information is indeed coming first from data science rather than bio experiments, and science seem to have a better handle on experiments than on handling data. And given how often statistics is indeed misused politically, the low level of trust I think is justified. Maybe, the standards will evolve. It is a criminal offense to forge financial statements, an academic offense to fake a biological experiment, even a cyber attack will soon be considered a war act, but mis-using statistics is still a “gray area” indeed.
We do need to catch up, as many decisions are now inevitably done based on such data, especially when time is of essence, like vaccine roll out. I was struck reading an article by a retired vaccine developer who says at the end “if I were a President, I would make sure high schools be well trained in one subject”. I expected him to say biology or public health, but he said “statistics”.
Avram, defending the kid saying
> ta, did you ever get that beketishe checked for shaatnez? It says wool on the label”.I reacted based on a general impression without doing analysis and may be being a little machmir here.
When we look at halochos of parents and teachers, there are often two lines of reasoning – one for parents who are not teachers and they are below teachers [who are teaching for free?] (providing material help, while teachers – Torah), and another for parents who are teachers (or even simply paying for teachers). The latter are above. In current reality, most shomer shabbos parents are in the higher categories – they most likely know some Torah to teach and when they know less, they pay more :).
So, in this case, I think I applied the idea that one does not question a teacher when seeing doing a seeming aveira, but then again he is asking b’deieved here. I’ll try to look more or ask someone about this, thanks for pointing out.
Anybody here has a business requiring unskilled labor? a store or construction? Did you ever try offering a person a job for several hours with higher than usual pay as tzedokah? Where he might learn a skill and get a reference for the future? This would seem a better way than just doling up money by Rambam.
This discussion sounds like a pure avoda zora. How is a circle on your hand with 2 sticks, or numbers on your computer, materially affect your life?! Run your life according to the Jewish sun hours and do not pay attention to goyishe times. I’ll try tomorrow telling my wife that I’ll be home at mincha gedola and I hope to be able to report the results of this experiment.
smerel, I am not asking for a smerel v Fauci fight. I am sure both would make good points and it would be a geshmak to watch.
I am talking about a whole universe of science as presented by hundreds of papers written by probably thousands of people. You seem to dismiss them all, without presenting a specific argument. It means that you feel you have some basis to do that. I can only think that this is based on internal feeling that we, Yidden, know and understand something important that others don’t. I just hope we are not mis-using our heritage in vain.
As to politicians, I suggest look back at Madison’s writings that the goal of American system is not to ensure that everyone is truthful, but to make sure that opposing opinions get played out in public sphere. This seems to worked out well beyond his expectations :). Hope we don’t get confused by that and make our opinions based on acceptance or rejection of views by some politicians. We can do better than that.
Syag > those who study science and got a few hours of yeshiva education no doubt are proficient in both
Syag, I am not claiming particular expertise in either science or Torah, I am just asking questions.
smerel, I would like to understand the source of your looking down at all the official information. I am not saying that it is all defensible, but how do we judge? I am afraid, this comes from our historical awareness that we have a long and wise tradition and outlived a lot of non-Jewish societies. Still, the fact that Rambam was smart in his generation, does not automatically makes us smarter than people around us – especially given yeridas hadoros in Torah on one hand, and continuing improvements in science and technology on the other. So, especially when we deal with chochma, rather than Torah, I would maybe trust someone who knows both Torah and science and history, but just because you got yeshiva education and know how to browse internet does not necessarily mean that you understand facts better. I guess my question is what are your proofs that you are smarter than them?
What is the explanation of Modechai telling Esther to go to the king? He claims that Hashem will help anyway, but she will be not the source of it. If Mordechai is so assured, why does he bother convincing her? Just so that they’ll be written in a sefer? I doubt it.
RebE, it seems that there is more license to argue in Torah learning. But your approach is good: focus on the other side of the argument. One of the references above say that even when you want to support your father, it is better to say that you disagree with the other side.
I saw an interesting difference in hilchos pesach: one doesn’t recline at his teacher’s table, but does at his father’s, as you can presume that the father will permit. I understand this that for the teacher getting respect is a high value, for the father the growth of the son is of higher value
> how you can frequently assume the worst about people and then lecture them about bein adam l’chaveiro?
I apologize if I offended you or someone else. We are here what we write, without having background of each other, and we write casually. Misunderstandings could happen and should just be corrected in the response.
> I always kept a pair of clip-on peyos
Is this allowed? If you were to marry the girl, you would probably need to continue with the clip-ons up to 120.