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> If only that were true
Note the word “reasoned”. ;} For example, Health gave me a bunch of interesting websites, I went and read them.
Syag,
an interesting case of mask and public discourse: some articles today quote a michigan study where schools with no rules now have same transmission as schools with rules. Hurrah!Click on the study and you see a very simple timeline: both types of school started at the same rate in august, then masked schools stayed 20-30% below the unmasked and then all schools experienced sharp increase in November becoming equal by thanksgiving and then all falling down together. So, if you care about number of kids who were infected (and transmitted to families, etc) you would understand that total number of sick people is way less in masked case. If you care about making a silly point – you point to the plot and say – see they are now the same.
Same presentation shows 13x higher rate of death for unvaxed v vaxed, standardized by age, and a plot of direct correlation between state cumulative death rate and vaccination rates. None of this is quoted, of course, in those childish articles.
Syag, we had looong discussions here with some of these guys and they all refer to websites, inner knowledge and personal choice. I was asking whether anyone was told this by their regular physician and heard babkes back. I am sure there are some, but they do not add up to the numbers of those who stand by those positions. Our religion makes a stand whether to drink a cup in 1 or 2 or 3 gulps. Surely, we can consider risks to life as religious issue. I am not insisting that my position is right, I am just throwing arguments out there and always happy to hear a reasoned argument back.
Re:omicron. What I read so far: most data so far is on transmission that seems not to be slowed much by JJ/AZ/Chinese/Russian vaccines, only in part by 3rd dose of mRNAs. And seems the same for “natural immunity”.
I first thought that “3rd” means “recent”, but I saw slides comparing 2nd and 3rd on the same day after the dose and difference was large. It is now admitted that having 3-4 weeks between 1st and 2nd doses were not ideal, Brits are now recommending 3 months for kids between vaccines. Maybe this explains decrease after 2nd dose. As to serious cases, everyone seem to hope that all previous exposures help, but the data from the field is not in, it will come in several weeks.
>> “The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. ”
Syag> No kidding. Glad you finally realize it.What I mean that people who protest very basic public health measures, such as masks and vaccines, are behaving childishly.
I have no idea what you mean by “follow their doctors”. 98% of doctors are vaccinated and probably 100% are working in masks. Are you saying that 30% of the population that are not vaccinated or not wearing masks are following recommendation of their actual doctors? This does not sound probable, and I was asking people here and not getting response. Btw, as of today, most of US is under omicron that partially avoids previous immunity both vaccine and disease. Do you expect people who touted their “natural immunity” to change their opinion? I don’t.
Dictators/bullies always ask – what about just giving up this little, and we argue between each other whether give in or not, instead of confronting them. How about we turn the table around and ask those leaders – what do you want: money, women, power? How about we take a mid-size island in a Pacific, put there all Putins, Xis, Kims with their entourage and have live pageants and TV shows with whatever they desire. They can kill their enemies in videogames and win elections on TV. UN in their charter will guarantee their safety and $1 Tln annually for this.
This is useful. Have a list of ten and then you can measure level of paranoia on a scale from 1 to 10:
if you get 9, call 911. if you can get 7, talk to your doctor, 4 – worry, 2 – you are not watching enough TV, 0 – you are a tam/simpleton, check if your wallet is still there. [I am 3].Orange > HEPA filters didn’t change it then and still won’t change it.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe that pre-pandemic filtering was insufficient, it was known that it made infection go around, but nobody cared. As I did not research it in detail, I hesitate to claim it, so consider this an opinion.
> For now, I will wear a mask
As was already mentioned, not clear how masking became a symbol of rebellion. We wear a lot of stuff that restrict our movement – from socks to hats. There are so many serious topics to discuss about Covid: medical, educational, work, helping those who need help in any of those. The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. Sad that the country is holding by this, and even sadder that our community does.
When we try to imagine lifestyles and environment changing over time, we often fail to imagine simple things. Consider, for example, Native Americans who lived a pre-mabul lifestyle and had seemingly no viruses and no immunity to them (leading to a disaster when they encountered those).
Some explain that it is partly due to lack of domesticated animals and, thus, lack of viruses jumping between animals and people. If pre-mabul generations were vegetarians, then the same would apply. I may be taking these midrashim too literally, but it is interesting to see how life conditions can change easily.
common > , the only was to be assured is to buy the seat next to yours.
again, my understanding, they don’t sell empty seats. Maybe I’m wrong. But looking at this Jewishly, our approach is different: if I am bothering you, it is my responsibility to mitigate the damage (Bava Basra, 2 houses at different height, the one higher needs to put the fence). So, a kosher obese person should be buying enough space and a kosher non-masking (oxymoron, IMHO) people should all bunch together in the back of the bus.
ys > “six feet” rule was based on
it is based on physics – propagation of large debris that get out of the mouth/nose. There are tons of simulators and tests for that. This is remarkably same as our traditional four amot! 6ft = 1.8m, 4 0.5m amot = 2m. Europeans are using 2 meters for covid rather than 6 ft. So, it looks lkike physics of breathing did not change in thousand years and was accurately measured!
ps 6 ft is for large particles that go down reasonably quickly, this is separate from aerosol that accumulate in the air.
TLIK,
I think it is legitimate to go ask a higher authority, it was just not worded properly. He had to disclose what mashgiach told him and also ask for the best option rather than “mutar or asur”.Even the dilemma is invalid: mutar in some contexts means that it is wrong but not punishable as asur.
Eved – so what was the answer? unless he just kicked you out?
I don’t think we can summarize Muslim-Jewish relationship in one sentence. Rambam had to run away from crazy Muslims in Spain to more moderate ones in Fes (with it’s first Madara/Proto-University before Europeans had them) and then to Egypt… Rambam ran away from Christian Spain to Muslim lands … Ottomans let Sefardim after they were kicked out of Spain … Think of Har Habait: if Muslims were not there for last 1,000+ years, it would be either have some avoda zara or a garbage dump.
But if the question is how would EY work without Zionists, just look at Syria now instead of Ottomans a hundred years ago.
Abba_S> Do you think they are going to sit around and do nothing.
I would suggest disaggregate the fact that Biden is not working out as President – that 60% of the country agrees with – and resistance of some gov workers to vaccine mandates (usually 5% of those).
While it is true that mandates make Biden even weaker political, we don’t have to play partisan games here on either side and discuss issues as we see them.
> From first Orthodox > Conservative > Reform
It actually went from O to R, then back to C.
R in 1860s were Jews. Those who did not want to be Jews, tried to go somewhere, not other way around.> so buy two seats
Looked into that! Generally, not possible. Airlines could do something creative if they wanted to and cared. Either segregated flights, or just allow people indicate their vax and mask status in seat selection – charging extra for changing seats based on this info. I’d pay to seat near a boostered and double-N95 person.
Emergency shows so many “conventions” that are in the way of life-saving ops. for example, many recently published articles have a link to “data” – and all instead of data provide a standard excluse: anonymized data can not be provided because it still may violate privacy (that is, someone can figure out a person based on his serology …). So, it is one team looking at data instead of hundred.
common > HEAP filters filter out 99.97 of the air, people are capable of deciding if they want to wear a mask while flying,
I am not against the idea that planes are safer than subway and schools. I saw impressive papers some time ago. If you have an argument find those and quote.
Still, Common, you know physics, right? You have 2 neighbors near you in the airline. They are in your face. Their breathing and coughing lands on your face before it reaches filters, even if you have directed airflow that moved the air down because the person projects the air. Try putting a feather in the air and blow it a little, and see if it goes down or towards neighbor. Or see if you can smell his food. Also, check whether they now use their filtering system while plane is on the ground. At some point, reports were that they did not. Maybe they do now.
So, when CEO says filter deals with “99.97%” of air, he may be technically correct. Maybe he can report an independent statistical report following up people after a flight. And, as someone noted already somewhere here, variants have no problem travelling between countries – most likely by air.
ujm, ok, include those also. I am thinking someone who was learning Gemorah daily for 7 years learned something. Let him/her in the stadium (after an exam to verify).
coffee > Unless lawsuits start coming if people get sick from their planes
I agree. I still stand by the statement that they are biased medical experts. There are better ones published, and if you care about the topic, you could refer to those.
coffee > It had agudah’s logo shown everywhere,
That is why I am saying that two messages did not match – “unites worldwide Jewry in an unparalleled display of achdus” and a logo (or, more importantly, speakers). This detracts from the awesome event, unfortunately. I hope this was on organizers, and not the opinion of people who were learning the daf for 7.5 years though.
ujm, I have no problem with your list, other than OO , non-O and various criminals. I appreciate that expanding a circle leads to boundary problems … This is not an excuse to exclude obviously eligible.
coffee, the event did not say “Aguda’s event”, the webpage says:
The Siyum unites worldwide Jewry in an unparalleled display of achdus. Jews from all walks of life join in pursuit of a common goal – the completion of Shas, in its entirety. In countries across the globe, the dedicated ranks of Shas Yidden are learning and achieving, as they work toward the upcoming 13th Siyum HaShas. The singular allegiance to Torah will once again be apparent, when we gather to celebrate the momentous culmination once again, on January 1, 2020coffee > Personally I think the סיום השס was from joy yet
yes, this is bothersome. Corona was already out at that time, we just were not aware …
The event was inspiring indeed for many people, including kids. The hesaron I noticed then (not to fully diminish inspiration) was that the speaker row was Agudah-inspired. I read somewhere that YU had their own little event and then went to the large one despite being excluded from the podium. It would be more meaningful if the “anu rotzim” include everyone in “anu”.RebE > why an am haaretz is not allowed to eat meat.
Indeed, so PETA has their rationale right, as well as people “protecting the Earth” (literally Am Haaretz)
common > they own the planes,
they don’t own the planes, they are indirectly hired by shareholders to maximize profits. Their pay is extremely correlated with that. Most people, including myself, will take small or reasonable risk as part of their parnosah. Kal v’homer if the rewards are huge and risks are someone else’s.
> So being locked down and having shuls and schools closed to you is as bad as keeping a piece of paper on your face.
I understand your point. I have no problem with people trying to do things responsibly, even if disagree on specific risk/reward estimates.
There is a difference between people who are forced to eat non-kosher when conscripted into Czar’s army and those who buying a BigMac because it is cheaper. Same here.
The new thing I see now is that people are really tired of the magefa and everyone around them getting “natural immunity” a couple of times, so they psychologically turned it off. I saw recently an elderly rov in K-95 davening with great kavana on the outside side of the minyan, standing at a 2-person table with 3 more tables nearby. A just slightly younger unmasked person comes in and sits down at the same table, spreading subway style half-way towards the other one. The elderly rov, gently moves away (not to offend?) and continues standing without a chair/table.
What gives? I think – there are some derech eretz issues that are well-known and people are trained from childhoold: don’t step on someone else’s feet, makom kavua, wear pants in public … and then there are some that pop up a new and only people who think about mitzvos consciously do them. Others reveal their inner am-haaertz. As my (non-MO) Rav suggested – you land in Israel, take an Uber, get to a destination, pay him without thinking and go. Wrong. You should stop and register that you are doing a mitzvah of paying a worker on time, l’shem ..
jackk> surely do not take their advice.
I think the issue is more that they are interested parties. As R Meir Twersky wrote – we value human life more than others, as their cheshbon is more of money v. health. And also airlines have bad record of providing safe air. They were never bothered by people getting sick on the plane.
And they chose their words carefully: it is safer than other indoor environments (they did not specify which one). So, those who are used to sit for hours with tens of other people in a room with bad ventilation and closed windows, will be safer in the air. I think research supports that. Not sure what is wrong with the mask though as it sure protects you from your neighbor’s sneezing.
shlucha > they had weak immune system, even a simple sneeze caused them to die.
sounds plausibly. don’t you see it now? if you have a weak immune system (or just towards particular patogen), then you get seriously sick and soon after someone sneezes (nose is irritated), the lungs will be affected too.
and weak immune system (comparing to now) may be due to lower travel and community mixing, and also probably less crumbing people in the same room. Urban life changed a lot. For example, 19th century brought sickness from spoiled milk that was transported from villages to cities until pasteurization was instituted (which was protested by non-believers and as much as vaccines now).
YS > Nu nu, so some of the Founding Father’s were ohavei Yisroel. Doesn’t change the fact that their vision of what the USA should be was that there should not be a single unchanging vision.
I don’t think this is that simple. They (most of them?) were all extreme rationalists and you can see Jefferson’s disdain for “traditional” Judaism. You see that they welcome Jews as long as they keep their “religion” but keep the same values as others. Very similar to German/Reform situation, I think – and half of the Jews then were of that type (the other half – sephardim).
There is also an interesting story of Sephardi Mordechai Noah who was appointed as an ambassador to Tunis and then recalled by Sec of State Monroe “because it was discovered that he was Jewish” and somehow this was not appropriate. Noah protested, saying, among other things, that he was never hiding that he was Jewish, and he got some sort of apology/acknowledgement from Pres Madison. I did not dig further into details.
> Now go learn the Real American history, but Stop Spouting Lies!
Where would he learn it? Is and how is American history taught in our schools? Maybe we don’t need to teach that directly. As R Twersky says – learn physiology to appreciate beauty of creation. don’t have to do it in yeshiva time, can do it at home after hours. Same with history. Maybe girls should be learning history and then they can direct kids to appropriate books.
RebE, a good example. To extrapolate, when there is nobody else to do a mitzva, you should try to compensate.
three is a more explicit one:
Pirkei Avot 2:5. In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man
Berakhot 63a bar Kappara taught: If the price of the merchandise has declined, jump and purchase from it; and where there is no man, there be a man; where there is no one to fill a particular role, accept that role upon yourself.mdd1, are you not afraid to be arrested soon? You claim you knew it in advance – and you did not inform anyone?!
American Army developed Covid and then travelled to Wuhan and left it there. One of the official CCP positions.
GW: May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants—while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.
Adams: I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. “I believe [that]… once restored to an independent government & no longer persecuted [the Jews] would soon wear away some of the asperities and peculiarities of their character & possibly in time become liberal Unitarian[s]
Jefferson: a nasty sect, which had presented for the object of their worship a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust….Moses had bound the Jews to many idle ceremonies, mummeries and observances, of no effect towards producing the social utilities which constitute the essence of virtue…[Letter:] He is happy in the restoration of the Jews, particularly, to their social rights, and hopes they will be seen taking their seats on the benches of science as preparatory to their doing the same at the board of government. …The prejudice still scowling on your section of our religion altho’ the elder one, cannot be unfelt by ourselves. ..
Madison: The history of the Jews must for ever be interesting. The modern part of it is at the same time so little generally known..Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect.And it is particularly pleasing to observe in the good citizenship of such as have been most distrusted and oppressed elsewhere, a happy illustration of the safety and success of this experiment of a just and benignant policy.
common > They do everything short entering the building
Oh, so it is a real issue. How does it work in those remote Israeli locations? Do they have the luxury of having supporting personnel that can not fulfil the core mission?
ys > I’m always flabbergasted at the sheer adversity so many people have to wearing masks.
you are right. When you read history, either BM2 or Roman, you sometimes wonder what were people thinking, why didn’t they focus on solving the most important problems of that generation. And now we see, indeed, people are mostly focused on trivial issues – why do I need to wear a mask, or have one more vaccine in addition to another 10 I have, or skip a game or a bar mitzva … The prblem is – Hashem sends us a test, and we are supposed to learn some lessons and chnage our behaviors in some way. If we fail the test by not even focusing on the right question, no wonder, the test gets prolonged.
not saying this happens all the time, but there were some cases:
March 2016: Donald Trump’s campaign on Friday postponed a rally in Chicago amid fights between supporters and demonstrators, protests in the streets and concerns that the environment at the event was no longer safe… Supporters of Trump still inside chanted “We want Trump” after the event was canceled….Others chanted “Bernie” as supporters whipped out Bernie Sanders campaign signs.
May 2016: Bernie Sanders Defends Supporters After Rowdy Protests In Nevada … Bernie Sanders is doubling down on accusations that the state party treated him unfairly, and he denies that his supporters were inciting violence. ..Sanders supporters, believing they had been treated unfairly, rushed the stage, threw chairs and were shouting obscenities, according to veteran Nevada journalist Jon Ralston. Even after the convention concluded, many refused to leave and had to be escorted out by security. Since then, Lange, the Nevada Democratic chairwoman, said she’s been receiving threats from Sanders supporters.
Avi K, thanks for correcting my story.
Re: Ottomans. We don’t need to drive very far from Israel to see how EY would fare without Jews coming back – look at Syria, Lebanon, Yemen or on a slightly brighter note – Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq.
> Whether it is being discussed in the context of shidduch dates or more generally.
I am thinking that we are always trying to find what exactly we should not do and not be like “them” to avoid assimilation or just to feel superior. At the same time, we are neglecting that we should be decent human being, and hopefully more decent than others. Some may not feel like helping a grandma (grandfa for men) cross the road makes them special, but I don’t think Hashem values a mitzva less because it is a neglected one. Maybe more.
would it be unAmerican to segregate masked/unmasked/unvaxed people into different planes or front and back of a plane?
maybe airlines can segment market – Jetblue require masks , Frontier – not. Businesses like segmented markets, you can charge more.
To be fair to the CEOs, they may be right that airplanes may be safer than the other outdoor places people are visiting and often staying for a long time. “safer” than totally unsafe environment does not mean “safe” for sane people though.
common > all have members with beards
So, do they tuck beards into the masks or have special masks? We have here a question of fact, not opinion. You can also call up Afghani Taliban to see how they are doing it now.
Except these two are nogeah b’davar and want to sell more tickets. And, now people who were Ok with circulating dirty air for years, are suddenly trustworthy.
I did not fly for some time, but I do remember how close someone’s face can be – and how many times I, and others, got sick after flying on a plane. If someone sneezes in your face – the filtering system is not helping. When planes are not flying, the filtering system may be off, etc. A line in the airport.
> Bernie never told a crowd ready to riot that they need to “take care of those Republicans”
Fair. Just because he did not have an opportunity. History of last 100 years: whenever socialists had a chance to take power by violence, they did or tried. US political system somehow survived when every European and South American country had revolutions. Appreciate it.
> suddenly sneezed and died
speaking of peshat:I was thinking about this for some time already. It sounded strange some time ago – this happens but not that often … Now, the pandemic clarified this of course … Also, note that viruses and bacteria change quickly. Some that were deadly several centuries ago, became not deadly later, or deadly only to new population (like American Indians) so it is well possible that there were something going around at that time that routinely caused a lot of deaths
HaLeivi > Just because a sensibility for a certain behavior, or Middah, didn’t exist in the past, that does not make it wrong.
totally agree. All behaviors towards people are conditioned on their sensitivities and expectations. A yeshivish example I heard is a comparison on how to react to a bochur erroneously suddenly saying “no tachanun today”. In old Poland: Gabbai clears the space near the bimah and embarrassingly invites “the new Rosh Yeshiva” to take the place. In more modern times, R Ouerbach whispers the gabbai “skip tachanun”.
I don’t see why the same approach is not applicable to relationships to non-Jews. Truly, we need to be realistic that we can rely on good relationships. They can always sour quickly and often did in history. Same as peace in Europe suddenly ended in 1914 after several decades and lead to a half- century of destruction. But this should not prevent us from being fair and grateful and good citizens.
> and I wanted to know what he really held; not looking for a ptur.
good suspense. Waiting for the answer. Meanwhile, I do not understand the question. Do you ask same question when you are confronted with a sandwich with suspicious ingredients or see an ad for a movie? Does saying Shma twice daily fulfils obligation of limud Torah? Does saying “good morning” poters you from kibud Av vaEm the rest of the day?
I presume you usually do the safe thing and do not push towards the boundaries and try to do best in positive mitzvos. You may also look at your Rosh Yeshiva and try to be as polite, thoughtful, learned as him.
Why suddenly here you are ready to ruin your health and make yourself unattractive for a shidduch unless ordered so by your Rebbi?
> a woman following behind him who is pushing a baby stroller or has her hands full,
there is also a risk that the woman will say – I can perfectly do it myself – and slam the door in my face!
the safe method for both concerns is to go thru the door and then hold it behind oneself. It is less courteous but decreases the risks.
> designate the bashert/basherte
nitpicking, according to Sotah, the 40 day thing is: a person X is matched to a daughter of person Y (that according to most customs, was not born yet!). So, all you get designated is a F-I-L! You still may have a choice between the sisters! And possibly this is a pru-u-rvu brocha to the F-I-L too ….
> Previously, even Jewish communists and gangsters married Jews
And maybe non-Jews did not want to marry Jews also.. Rav Schach writes that Hashem arranged for Arab hatred if early Zionists. Otherwise, they would all go to study in Cairo and Beirut and intermarry…This also seem to mean that R Schach cared about these guys..
As to gangsters, I am told by a person who somehow knows, that Bugsy Siegal, would show up unannounced at other gangsters’ funeral (at a personal risk of being caught) but did not enter the cemetery (as a Cohen).
Avi > Americans have only been intermarrying in large numbers in the last couple of decades
Pew says intermarriage was 17% before 1970, big jump to 35% in 1970 and then gradual growth to current 58% This is a little biased as asked in 2013 about marriages that existed that long .. and also at some point numbers become meaningless as those who are counted as “Jewish” actually are not.
other stats I found. Looks like Russians rates grew earlier than in US, but in Ukraine about same time
Germany 1900s: 20%
USSR:
1924: Russia Males 17% Females 9% (talk about shidduch crisis!) Ukraine 4%/5% Belarus 2%/3%
1936: 44% 35% 18%/16% 13%/11%
1978 59/ 43 45/34 38/26
1988 73/63 54/45 48/40